Quote:
@IzzyCartwright: Daily Design Debate: What was your favorite offline reward mechanic in a game? (aka rest xp, or plants growing, dailys, skill progress)
Thought it might be nice to open up the debate here too, for those who don't use Twitter.
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Scholar
44 posts
From Izzy's Twitter page:
Thought it might be nice to open up the debate here too, for those who don't use Twitter.
Thought it might be nice to open up the debate here too, for those who don't use Twitter.
Scholar
36 posts
I'm not much of fan about some of types of systems, it'll really have to depend on what it is it has to offer... The epx thing just sounds cheep to me, and so does that skill progress idea... I mean, should your character get stronger when you actually play the game?
Maybe a plant groth system, if your into gardening... Only don't let the rotting-system be like FarmVille... I hated that I had to constantly check on some of the crops that I grew in that game. Maybe set some realistic times for it?
Edited, Nov 30th 2010 12:44pm by TriggerSad55
Maybe a plant groth system, if your into gardening... Only don't let the rotting-system be like FarmVille... I hated that I had to constantly check on some of the crops that I grew in that game. Maybe set some realistic times for it?
Edited, Nov 30th 2010 12:44pm by TriggerSad55
5 posts
Hmmm. Interesting question. On the one hand, games where you get some form of tangible progress when you take a break are nice (XP, Skill levels, whatev). On the other hand, I feel like pretty much all of the games that give you those things are sort of saying 'Yeah, we realize it is a pain in the butt to do X, so we will give you a little help if you can't be uber-leet'... and that practically admits bad game design (IMO). I hate games that just take hours and hours of grinding, and it doesn't really make you feel that much better to get some rest XP because you KNOW how much of a pain leveling is still going to be.
Maybe if there were some fun little random things you could do to your personal instance/guild hall (say gardening, construction projects, whatever) that you could watch happen over a period of time, but that could keep improving while you are out of game, it could be kind of neat. They would have to be things that had no gameplay impact (IMO), but that could be interesting.
In Fable 2 I believe you could earn money while out of game, and that was kind of cool, but obviously that shouldn't happen in a game with multiplayer. Overall it seems hard to come up with ideas that are cool and aren't just something to excuse a game requiring an excessive amount of grind.
Maybe if there were some fun little random things you could do to your personal instance/guild hall (say gardening, construction projects, whatever) that you could watch happen over a period of time, but that could keep improving while you are out of game, it could be kind of neat. They would have to be things that had no gameplay impact (IMO), but that could be interesting.
In Fable 2 I believe you could earn money while out of game, and that was kind of cool, but obviously that shouldn't happen in a game with multiplayer. Overall it seems hard to come up with ideas that are cool and aren't just something to excuse a game requiring an excessive amount of grind.
Scholar
24 posts
Offline levelling a la Age of Conan is nice, however it does encourage you to skip content you may not want to. My account has accrued around 40 levels of rest xp from a few weeks of not playing, but since this is my first time playing and would take me up to level 70ish I don't want to take it. All in all, I guess its nice for secondary characters, but I don't think it should be available if you haven't finished the game once.
Generally these passive bonuses are there to keep you subscribed or engaged in a game. With XP not being relevant to power in the game it seems misguided to reward it for not logging in. Likewise whatever you reward has to be maintainable no matter how long people are logged off for - due to the subscription model this could be years, as seen in Guild Wars. All in all, I'm not sure that's really needed or relevant to GW2, since there's no farming simulator (unless related to cooking crafting maybe?) or subscription fee.
Generally these passive bonuses are there to keep you subscribed or engaged in a game. With XP not being relevant to power in the game it seems misguided to reward it for not logging in. Likewise whatever you reward has to be maintainable no matter how long people are logged off for - due to the subscription model this could be years, as seen in Guild Wars. All in all, I'm not sure that's really needed or relevant to GW2, since there's no farming simulator (unless related to cooking crafting maybe?) or subscription fee.
11 posts
Greibach wrote:
Maybe if there were some fun little random things you could do to your personal instance/guild hall (say gardening, construction projects, whatever) that you could watch happen over a period of time, but that could keep improving while you are out of game, it could be kind of neat. They would have to be things that had no gameplay impact (IMO), but that could be interesting.
This was my first thought as well, and something I think would be really cool. Like paying for something to be built in your home district in Divinity's Reach, or some sort of magical experiment in your own asura lab that actually takes a week of real time to complete. I like how in Eve Online, building the ships in the Titan class takes about a month of real time. Now, I never played Eve, but this concept really appeals to me. It just adds so much more incentive to make something good of what you've paid for, because you not only spent in-game gold, but you actually had to wait a long time for it. Heck, I wouldn't be opposed to waiting like a couple of months for something, if it was cool enough.
I don't know about offline leveling though. Somehow, it feels like cheating to me. I guess it would be fine for secondary characters, but I still feel like I wouldn't have earned that level. If you team up with a level 75 character, you would expect that person to be able to handle that profession, and actually pull their weight in, say, a dungeon. If 35 of those levels were acquired through offline XP gain, the actual experience of the person playing would be equal to a level 40 character, equipped with a bunch of traits they haven't really gotten the hang of. In a tight spot (and it sounds like there will be lots of tight spots in GW2) people you play with need to know their abilities. I don't know. Maybe this is a groundless fear. What do you guys think?
Scholar
34 posts
I like the concept of "Rebuilding Rome" used in Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood. Once you restore enough of.... I dunno, blacksmiths, you gradually build up your discount there and the overall value of Rome goes up.
Maybe in GW2 you could upgrade your house or something and eventually build up a merchant discount.
Or you could have to rake your leaves so the Divinity's Reach HoA doesn't fine you. Ok, maybe not. ;)
Edited, Nov 25th 2010 6:30pm by NeoNugget
Maybe in GW2 you could upgrade your house or something and eventually build up a merchant discount.
Or you could have to rake your leaves so the Divinity's Reach HoA doesn't fine you. Ok, maybe not. ;)
Edited, Nov 25th 2010 6:30pm by NeoNugget
4 posts
I don't think off line leveling would be a good idea either. Would promote alot of the same type of behavior we see in the original Guild Wars now. Lots of people not grasping the game because heroes do it for them.
On the other hand the opposite to offline farming? Offline build experimenting could be very beneficial. Maybe some sort of fighting or other mini type games that act as tutorials in a sense. Maybe some sort of reward coupons for different weapon/armor skins or w/e. Shouldn't be anything that can give a game play advantage.
Maybe access to training areas and something like the Charr fighting pit, to where you can change fight settings and all that. To allow you to experiment with builds offline.
If we do get some sort of customizing features for our home instance. It would be very cool if we had a sand box type utility to allow us to actually create our own home buildings and the like. Kind of like Second Life. Using textures already in GW2 of course ;)
A collection of all the written lore leading up to gw2 maybe interesting offline also. Stories from GW game manuals and all the lore from the NPC's in GW, things like that.
Would love to see some way to experiment with builds offline though. Maybe even a way to practice cross profession combos with some NPC's
Edited, Nov 25th 2010 7:29pm by TokenChoke
On the other hand the opposite to offline farming? Offline build experimenting could be very beneficial. Maybe some sort of fighting or other mini type games that act as tutorials in a sense. Maybe some sort of reward coupons for different weapon/armor skins or w/e. Shouldn't be anything that can give a game play advantage.
Maybe access to training areas and something like the Charr fighting pit, to where you can change fight settings and all that. To allow you to experiment with builds offline.
If we do get some sort of customizing features for our home instance. It would be very cool if we had a sand box type utility to allow us to actually create our own home buildings and the like. Kind of like Second Life. Using textures already in GW2 of course ;)
A collection of all the written lore leading up to gw2 maybe interesting offline also. Stories from GW game manuals and all the lore from the NPC's in GW, things like that.
Would love to see some way to experiment with builds offline though. Maybe even a way to practice cross profession combos with some NPC's
Edited, Nov 25th 2010 7:29pm by TokenChoke
Offline leveling would be great, especially for those of us with alts. Dailies and offline skill leveling is good two, however I don't see the latter being a valid option in GW2 right now.
I'd be all for a having a non-combat pet that decorates your hovel, and you can hire a pet trainer to work with the thing while you're gone and teach it tricks. Maybe you can have like, six of them and end up with a mini-circus.
grin. okay, yeah, maybe not.
Anyways, not a big fan of offline XP for all the reasons everyone else stated. And I do like the idea of a small garden, for growing herbs or flowers that give small, helpful buffs when made into little potions or bandages. Nothing major, just a little extra.
There's always something really nice about arranging something just the way you want it and seeing it growing a little more every time you check on it.
Edited, Nov 28th 2010 1:59pm by jadyness
grin. okay, yeah, maybe not.
Anyways, not a big fan of offline XP for all the reasons everyone else stated. And I do like the idea of a small garden, for growing herbs or flowers that give small, helpful buffs when made into little potions or bandages. Nothing major, just a little extra.
There's always something really nice about arranging something just the way you want it and seeing it growing a little more every time you check on it.
Edited, Nov 28th 2010 1:59pm by jadyness
7 posts
I can't say I'm a fan of offline progression usually...
> I don't like rest systems that incentivize playing alts.
I like alts, but I like playing them at my own pace (generally focusing on one character at a time) - not being encouraged to.
> I don't like rest systems that don't infer some sense of accomplishment.
By that I mean I don't mind characterful and/or amusing rest systems similar to City of Heroes - where if you log out near X building (e.g. hospital) you'll accumulate Y buff (e.g. healing) - so long as they aren't too significant, but I don't like systems where experience is thrown at you simply for logging in.
It always comes across as a crutch for grind and/or a bad levelling curve; as if the game is greeting you with "we know you can't stomach how long it'll take to achieve anything, so have this shortcut on us!"
It's like sitting down with a DVD and having the intro credits plastered with "there's always the fast-forward button!"
> I LOATHE all atrophy systems in games - armor degarding, weapon breaking, plants dying etc.
I just find them very artificial, and my instinct is always to garvitate towards whatever route has the least atrophy.
Give me a cute little gardening patch in a game and I'll be delighted, but stick "now water them every 24 hours or they'll all DIE!" rules on it and I'll just steer clear.
> I slightly-less-loathe arbitrary real-world delays on activities e.g. crafting, dungeons.
When I'm sitting down playing my game, I don't much appreciate the game telling me to come back in 24 hours/a week - if I finish a dungeon and still have time on my hands, I want the option to play it again and not be locked out for 72 hours because the designers decided to lock exclusive/superior loot inside that single area.
> I don't like rest systems that incentivize playing alts.
I like alts, but I like playing them at my own pace (generally focusing on one character at a time) - not being encouraged to.
> I don't like rest systems that don't infer some sense of accomplishment.
By that I mean I don't mind characterful and/or amusing rest systems similar to City of Heroes - where if you log out near X building (e.g. hospital) you'll accumulate Y buff (e.g. healing) - so long as they aren't too significant, but I don't like systems where experience is thrown at you simply for logging in.
It always comes across as a crutch for grind and/or a bad levelling curve; as if the game is greeting you with "we know you can't stomach how long it'll take to achieve anything, so have this shortcut on us!"
It's like sitting down with a DVD and having the intro credits plastered with "there's always the fast-forward button!"
> I LOATHE all atrophy systems in games - armor degarding, weapon breaking, plants dying etc.
I just find them very artificial, and my instinct is always to garvitate towards whatever route has the least atrophy.
Give me a cute little gardening patch in a game and I'll be delighted, but stick "now water them every 24 hours or they'll all DIE!" rules on it and I'll just steer clear.
> I slightly-less-loathe arbitrary real-world delays on activities e.g. crafting, dungeons.
When I'm sitting down playing my game, I don't much appreciate the game telling me to come back in 24 hours/a week - if I finish a dungeon and still have time on my hands, I want the option to play it again and not be locked out for 72 hours because the designers decided to lock exclusive/superior loot inside that single area.
5 posts
I responded to Izzy's tweet, but I'll reiterate in a longer style here. ;)
You want to use offline rewards as a means to incentivize a reason for casual players to come back. Offline rewards are generally not as critical for people that intend to play every day on loads of alts, etc. because online rewards are better than offline. Offline rewards are best used for people that play once a week or so. When they come back, they get a cookie.
Since MMOs are largely efficiency based, my favorite offline rewards are rest XP. It's like the devs are saying "hey, let's give you a little push for a bit so you can keep up with the crazy hardcore." Of course, the rest XP never makes up for all the "lost" time, but at least it feels pretty good. The problem though with rest XP is you don't want to train players to only play when they have rest XP. This is mostly an issue in games with long leveling problems, and if GW2's time to level remains constant I think this problem will be lessened.
You want to use offline rewards as a means to incentivize a reason for casual players to come back. Offline rewards are generally not as critical for people that intend to play every day on loads of alts, etc. because online rewards are better than offline. Offline rewards are best used for people that play once a week or so. When they come back, they get a cookie.
Since MMOs are largely efficiency based, my favorite offline rewards are rest XP. It's like the devs are saying "hey, let's give you a little push for a bit so you can keep up with the crazy hardcore." Of course, the rest XP never makes up for all the "lost" time, but at least it feels pretty good. The problem though with rest XP is you don't want to train players to only play when they have rest XP. This is mostly an issue in games with long leveling problems, and if GW2's time to level remains constant I think this problem will be lessened.
Ravious wrote:
KTROffline rewards are best used for people that play once a week or so. When they come back, they get a cookie.
I disagree with this. If somebody is playing once a week, such as only being able to get into a game on the weekend, having rest xp (the cookie) is not really any kind of incentive to come back. I can't imagine GamerX out there on a Friday night rubbing his hands and thinking "Tomorrow I can log in and I'll be FULL of rest xp! Just a few more hours! Patience.. patience..."
In other words, nobody is going to log into a game they don't already care about. The offline rest xp or whatever else is not going to convince anybody to come back and play some more, just because hey, they can level 134.3% faster than somebody who logs in every day.
What offline reward should aim for is to reward the guy who IS playing, who's happily collecting all the little tokens. Something like the titles and their corresponding buffs in City of Heroes is not a bad way of doing it because who doesn't like having a huge long list of achievements, that denote how much time you've sunk in?
Anyways, my two gil.
20 posts
FFXI had the option of raising your own mounts. Eggs would hatch after four (real life) days of being placed in the stables. After 19 days they'd grow into adolescence, and finally after 29 days you'd have your own ride-able Chocobo. You feed it and play mini games with it etc along the way. In the end it felt more rewarding than just using a rental which was entirely possible for those who opted not to raise their own. It spawned a whole cult following of people raising, breeding, and racing their Chocobo pets by the die hard fans of the optional side quest.
bring on the mini-games! can never have too many of 'em.
Edited, Nov 28th 2010 1:59pm by jadyness
Edited, Nov 28th 2010 1:59pm by jadyness
Some sort of minigame or hobby would be good, with some sort of tangable reward but nothing on par with online play.
FFXIs chocobo example is a pretty good one (althouth that wasn't exectued very well and you needed to log on often to raise a good one), or their gardening system.
I like the building/growing ideas - something you put in motion and check on and tweak from time to time. The reward could be common items, or a little cash, or points/trophy items that can be spent on things only gained from that hobby, or re-invested back into it.
I'd rather no see xp or skills from such a system. Those things I like to feel like I've earned.
FFXIs chocobo example is a pretty good one (althouth that wasn't exectued very well and you needed to log on often to raise a good one), or their gardening system.
I like the building/growing ideas - something you put in motion and check on and tweak from time to time. The reward could be common items, or a little cash, or points/trophy items that can be spent on things only gained from that hobby, or re-invested back into it.
I'd rather no see xp or skills from such a system. Those things I like to feel like I've earned.
20 posts
Gii wrote:
Some sort of minigame or hobby would be good, with some sort of tangable reward but nothing on par with online play.
FFXIs chocobo example is a pretty good one (althouth that wasn't exectued very well and you needed to log on often to raise a good one), or their gardening system.
FFXIs chocobo example is a pretty good one (althouth that wasn't exectued very well and you needed to log on often to raise a good one), or their gardening system.
Yeah, completely agree. Would rather it be very baseline. Let there be extras for those who want to spend the time working on making their mount pretty etc, but keep the reduced speed* thing out for those who don't want to constantly deal with that system.
*FFXI chocobo raising system will reduce the speed at which your mount travels depending on strengths and weaknesses, forcing you to min/max with food and training to achieve normal speed (which is the same as a rental chocobo.) Can't raise them to go any faster, though.
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