Like, literally... after doing some 2v2 against AI and then some ranked matches, losing all but one battle (apparently the match making system is broken, or maybe it just got confused from the massive vacuum I seem to generate), I got up from my chair, and while bending over in an attempt to stomp on my own head, the game box flew out of the shelf and smacked me in the rear.
After that I spent a good three hours watching some replays with commentaries on YouTube, and I seem to have located the problem:
I lack a third arm, a second pair of eyes and a dual monitor setup.
What I found out is that this game is massive micro-macro management dependent. If you aren't able to watch the minimap, the battle map and various resource counters, all while pressing hotkeys like a freak, you're just going to lose.
Part of the problem probably derives from my utter lack of experience with online RTS gaming. I'm a heavy RTS fan, but up until now I've been single player focused, and it's a completely different ball game. Against an AI in any other RTS (except the other Blizzard RTS games), you can win by building up a strong defense and then turtling until your army is larger than the enemy's.
If you try to do this in Starcraft (2), you'll find that your opponent has a small force inside your base in no time, killing off your units. And while you're trying to fend the aggressor off, somehow he's still able to produce more units while researching upgrades and expanding his base.
It's crazy.
Now, in my defense, I'd like to say that I've never come across a match like the ones I saw on YouTube. In the YouTube replays, a lot more care seems to be taken to avoid damage and to interrupt supply lines, often causing the opponent to retreat where someone like me would have just pressed on for glory and victory. Whenever I'm fighting someone myself, they seem to just roll into my base and pewpew until I cry salty tears of NO MORE, PLEASE!
I definitely learned a lot from watching those replays, but it's getting late so I won't have time to test my newfound knowledge until tomorrow. And while those videos did give me an idea about how to proceed with building up a base, I am still utterly oblivious to how the various units counter each other.
And I still need to resolve the small issue of having to grow a third arm...
Edit: Being completely worn out by low morale and sleep-deprivation, I forgot all about the actual point of this thread, other than allowing me to vent some frustration.
After some searching on Google, I found out that a lot of other "nubs" like me are in a similar position, getting their asses handed to them by 5-man strike teams in a strategy game. It seems a lot of people have the same mentality that I do, which is something akin to "Why would I build barracks way out in the front of my base where it's vulnerable? And why would I build six of them?"
Any tips and pointers you pro and mad-skilled Starcraft players could give to us? I know that each fight is different and the course of the fight somewhat unpredictable since each approach has its counter, but say a 101 on how to not die within 5 minutes?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
And for the lolfactor, I'm Bronze rank 100, which, I believe, is the bottom of the suckage.
Addendum: Sorry for the crappy English. It deteriorates the sleepier I get. Crazy, I know.
Edited, Sep 4th 2010 3:46am by Mazra
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- Starcraft 2 is kicking my butt
Starcraft 2 is kicking my buttFollow
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
What level AI did you play against? Easy and Very Easy should not be doing any sort of rush.
Basically, the key to the first half of the game is build order, which is just memorizing when to build specific buildings and units, and to be as quick as possible about it. I'm still a novice myself, but I'm getting better and have a couple sources that might help you. What race do you play? This first link will tell you what buildings you need to build other buildings and build specific units (and you can then learn more about each unit/building as necessary).
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Units
This official Blizzard guide might also be helpful, depending on how much you already know.
As for videos, I recommend Day9, who is very good about describing pretty much everything that is going on and you should learn a lot.
I hope that helps. I'm still learning myself, but I have found these references useful and have been trying to work a lot on my game.
Basically, the key to the first half of the game is build order, which is just memorizing when to build specific buildings and units, and to be as quick as possible about it. I'm still a novice myself, but I'm getting better and have a couple sources that might help you. What race do you play? This first link will tell you what buildings you need to build other buildings and build specific units (and you can then learn more about each unit/building as necessary).
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Units
This official Blizzard guide might also be helpful, depending on how much you already know.
As for videos, I recommend Day9, who is very good about describing pretty much everything that is going on and you should learn a lot.
I hope that helps. I'm still learning myself, but I have found these references useful and have been trying to work a lot on my game.
◕ ‿‿ ◕
I'm not a good RTS player, but I'm friends with an avid RTS fan (last I knew he was ranked 9th in his SC2 bracket and moving on up). I played a few Age of Myhthology 3 games with and against him, and I learned a great deal, though I'm sure he has much more he could teach. As someone who is a bad RTS player, but a competitive player in another genre (fighting games), I think I can offer you a good insight into how RTS noobs fail.
1) The computer is a terrible opponent and teacher, in any competitive game. Fortunately though at your level a medium difficulty or even hard computer is still ok to develop skills on because you have core flaws in your game play. Just be aware that fairing well against a comp doesn't translate at all to fairing well against another player.
2) Be aggressive. A common mistake many newbies make is in being too passive. They try to turtle and build up their entire fleet before making any attempt on their enemy. This is always a losing strategy. You will always get attacked before you have a chance to fully prepare. The simplest thing many new players don't do is that they don't scout out their enemy. Fairly early on you should be using a mining unit to discover your enemy's position.
3) Know how to managa your economy and army. Often new players put too much emphasis on economy. They focus on building too many scvs to get minerals and gas quickly, which leaves their military weak and vulnerable to early and mid game rushes. You need to be able to defend yourself very soon in the game. A strong mid game army gives you control over the end game.
4) Fast unit production. This is why you see players having 6 barracks. If you and your enemy mutually wipe each other out in a fight, he who can rebuild his army first wins. Think of your army not as a static size, but a rate of production.
5) Build while attacking. This is a big problem for me, but you need to be building units even while managing your assault. You use these units to reinforce your existing troops and keep your army rolling. If you don't keep units in production, then even a strong offensive force will eventually die out.
6) Expand your base. This is less general and more specific to SC2. You should build at least 1 other base at another mineral site fairly quickly. Don't turtle in the starting location forever, you'll eventually lose out on resources.
1) The computer is a terrible opponent and teacher, in any competitive game. Fortunately though at your level a medium difficulty or even hard computer is still ok to develop skills on because you have core flaws in your game play. Just be aware that fairing well against a comp doesn't translate at all to fairing well against another player.
2) Be aggressive. A common mistake many newbies make is in being too passive. They try to turtle and build up their entire fleet before making any attempt on their enemy. This is always a losing strategy. You will always get attacked before you have a chance to fully prepare. The simplest thing many new players don't do is that they don't scout out their enemy. Fairly early on you should be using a mining unit to discover your enemy's position.
3) Know how to managa your economy and army. Often new players put too much emphasis on economy. They focus on building too many scvs to get minerals and gas quickly, which leaves their military weak and vulnerable to early and mid game rushes. You need to be able to defend yourself very soon in the game. A strong mid game army gives you control over the end game.
4) Fast unit production. This is why you see players having 6 barracks. If you and your enemy mutually wipe each other out in a fight, he who can rebuild his army first wins. Think of your army not as a static size, but a rate of production.
5) Build while attacking. This is a big problem for me, but you need to be building units even while managing your assault. You use these units to reinforce your existing troops and keep your army rolling. If you don't keep units in production, then even a strong offensive force will eventually die out.
6) Expand your base. This is less general and more specific to SC2. You should build at least 1 other base at another mineral site fairly quickly. Don't turtle in the starting location forever, you'll eventually lose out on resources.
I'm not great, but ranked 50ish in the silver bracket in 1v1, 60ish in the gold bracket on 2v2, 50ish in silver of 3v3, unranked in 4v4, and I've won 1 FFA ever (but it was my most satisfying victory to date).
The most important part of a SC2 match that Vataro pointed out is your early game build order.
I don't play Terran or Zerg, but will give you pointers from a Protoss perspective.
- Learn the maps. You'll only do so by practicing but once you do, you won't be as likely to be killed by a surprise attack through the back door of your base after you've turtled up the front door.
- Build order. Basically, I go 8/10 probes, pylon, send probe to scout, probes until 10/10, then Gateway. Depending on the race I'm fighting, I'll finish turtling up with another Gateway or even my forge while leaving the probe OUTSIDE my base. That probe will build a proxy pylon somewhere outside of my base (for warp gates) and later on, I'll use it to expand. If it dies, I'm stuck until I can build a factory to produce a transport.
- Micro! Right off the bat, I set my nexus to CTRL 3 (as the "e" to build more probes is right under the "3") so I can continue building probes or chrono boost without stopping what I'm doing. Just remember to set the Nexus' rally point on your mineral line! I tend not to micro warp gates, as they have their own hotkey, but I micro all other unit producers and my "main" army. I'll also individually micro my stalker group for easy blinking and focus fire.
- Scout, early. When I'm building my 8th probe I send a probe out to build my first pylon (you NEVER want to be population locked). After it's started warping in, I send that probe out to scout & maybe even harass. If I can build a proxy pylon inside an enemy base without them knowing I've got a fantastic drop point once warp gates are up. You can even gas block (unless you're terran as the SCV that builds it is targettable) by building a gas harvester in their base.
- Rush. As soon as I have 2 zealots up I send them. While continuing to build more, I set my rally point to one of the first two units for easy reinforcement.
- Counter! It's pretty easy to counter a zerg player as you pretty much KNOW they're going to rush ground early. For terrans, I just try and bottleneck my supply line (And place a cannon or two around the line) in order to avoid a reaper rush. For someone who looks like they're trying to rush air I amass stalkers if I don't have air yet. If they're rushing ground, I'm going for immortals & zealots early, then Colossuses. If they don't have detection, well then I'm rushing Dark Templars. They get detection while I'm rushing dark templars? Well then I'm merging them into Archons. I also keep a couple stalkers, high templars, & immortals behind my "shell" to fight off rushes.
- Build detection (if you're not Terran)! Cloaked units will wipe the floor with you if you can't see them.
- Harass! If he's too busy trying to fend off an early rush to build stuff, you've bought yourself enough time to build an army before him so you can walk right over him.
- The shift key is your friend. It queues actions, which is really helpful when harassing. Just hit shift & point around so the unit runs in circles for awhile, then go back to building more units. Just don't forget about them!
- Don't queue producing units when you're low on minerals. You can use those minerals for other things instead of waiting for the unit being produced first to finish.
- Upgrade! As Protoss I tend to upgrade weapons, then armor, then shields. The faster I can kill the enemy units, the longer my unit lasts. Although, sometimes, I'll prioritize shield over armor (mostly if I have Archons on the field as they are SO shield dependent.)
- Use AoE attacks! Void ray rush got you down? Well a few storms from my high Templars will solve that problem pretty easily.
- Focus Fire. When in battle, select your army, hold shift, then click each of the enemy armies units individually (prioritize the most dangerous ones first). Now your army will ALL attack each of the units together one at a time.
- Play to the strengths of your race. Terrans have good harassment on most maps with reapers & can defend easily with a mix of marines & tanks. Protoss have the most powerful air, but are heavily gas dependent when it gets to that point. Shear numbers are the strength of the zerg & the best zerg players are CONSTANTLY harassing you while amassing more and more units.
- Units > Defensive structures. You can go around defensive structures and they stay still. Units do not. I'm not saying don't build any, but prioritize units over them.
I just got into the FFXVI beta, so I doubt I'll be prioritizing SC2 at the moment, but feel free to PM me your info and I'll add you to my list. That way we can team up &, hopefully, kill some folks.
Edited, Sep 4th 2010 1:18am by Omegavegeta
The most important part of a SC2 match that Vataro pointed out is your early game build order.
I don't play Terran or Zerg, but will give you pointers from a Protoss perspective.
- Learn the maps. You'll only do so by practicing but once you do, you won't be as likely to be killed by a surprise attack through the back door of your base after you've turtled up the front door.
- Build order. Basically, I go 8/10 probes, pylon, send probe to scout, probes until 10/10, then Gateway. Depending on the race I'm fighting, I'll finish turtling up with another Gateway or even my forge while leaving the probe OUTSIDE my base. That probe will build a proxy pylon somewhere outside of my base (for warp gates) and later on, I'll use it to expand. If it dies, I'm stuck until I can build a factory to produce a transport.
- Micro! Right off the bat, I set my nexus to CTRL 3 (as the "e" to build more probes is right under the "3") so I can continue building probes or chrono boost without stopping what I'm doing. Just remember to set the Nexus' rally point on your mineral line! I tend not to micro warp gates, as they have their own hotkey, but I micro all other unit producers and my "main" army. I'll also individually micro my stalker group for easy blinking and focus fire.
- Scout, early. When I'm building my 8th probe I send a probe out to build my first pylon (you NEVER want to be population locked). After it's started warping in, I send that probe out to scout & maybe even harass. If I can build a proxy pylon inside an enemy base without them knowing I've got a fantastic drop point once warp gates are up. You can even gas block (unless you're terran as the SCV that builds it is targettable) by building a gas harvester in their base.
- Rush. As soon as I have 2 zealots up I send them. While continuing to build more, I set my rally point to one of the first two units for easy reinforcement.
- Counter! It's pretty easy to counter a zerg player as you pretty much KNOW they're going to rush ground early. For terrans, I just try and bottleneck my supply line (And place a cannon or two around the line) in order to avoid a reaper rush. For someone who looks like they're trying to rush air I amass stalkers if I don't have air yet. If they're rushing ground, I'm going for immortals & zealots early, then Colossuses. If they don't have detection, well then I'm rushing Dark Templars. They get detection while I'm rushing dark templars? Well then I'm merging them into Archons. I also keep a couple stalkers, high templars, & immortals behind my "shell" to fight off rushes.
- Build detection (if you're not Terran)! Cloaked units will wipe the floor with you if you can't see them.
- Harass! If he's too busy trying to fend off an early rush to build stuff, you've bought yourself enough time to build an army before him so you can walk right over him.
- The shift key is your friend. It queues actions, which is really helpful when harassing. Just hit shift & point around so the unit runs in circles for awhile, then go back to building more units. Just don't forget about them!
- Don't queue producing units when you're low on minerals. You can use those minerals for other things instead of waiting for the unit being produced first to finish.
- Upgrade! As Protoss I tend to upgrade weapons, then armor, then shields. The faster I can kill the enemy units, the longer my unit lasts. Although, sometimes, I'll prioritize shield over armor (mostly if I have Archons on the field as they are SO shield dependent.)
- Use AoE attacks! Void ray rush got you down? Well a few storms from my high Templars will solve that problem pretty easily.
- Focus Fire. When in battle, select your army, hold shift, then click each of the enemy armies units individually (prioritize the most dangerous ones first). Now your army will ALL attack each of the units together one at a time.
- Play to the strengths of your race. Terrans have good harassment on most maps with reapers & can defend easily with a mix of marines & tanks. Protoss have the most powerful air, but are heavily gas dependent when it gets to that point. Shear numbers are the strength of the zerg & the best zerg players are CONSTANTLY harassing you while amassing more and more units.
- Units > Defensive structures. You can go around defensive structures and they stay still. Units do not. I'm not saying don't build any, but prioritize units over them.
I just got into the FFXVI beta, so I doubt I'll be prioritizing SC2 at the moment, but feel free to PM me your info and I'll add you to my list. That way we can team up &, hopefully, kill some folks.
Edited, Sep 4th 2010 1:18am by Omegavegeta
"The Rich are there to take all of the money & pay none of the taxes, the middle class is there to do all the work and pay all the taxes, and the poor are there to scare the crap out of the middle class." -George Carlin
Quote:
I just got into the FFXVI beta
OP:
*this guy* makes really good strategy vids
placement matches are designed to kick your *** I think, but a couple things I'd recommend:
-you need to harass your opponent early and harass often
-you need to know what your opponent is planning and how to counter it effectively (use cheap/fast units to scout!)
-you need to get a good feel for how many gatherers/vespine mines/supply structures to build and when to build them in order to fast unit and structure creation (you need a handful of units ASAP to ward off early rush)
-don't expand to a second base too early or you won't be able to defend it and will waste a lot of materials
-practice micro-managing lots of different units at the same time (ex- keep building units at base, while building structures for next "stage" of battle, while guerrilla attacking their base from the front, while sneaking around back to hit weak spots in their base with aerial units, preferably the disrupting supply line)
Edited, Sep 4th 2010 1:59am by shintasama
More or less what everyone else said, I'm just going to link you to a few sources of information I use.
I basically spend half my days watching these SC2 commentary channels: Psy, Husky, and HD. Psy is probably my favorite, as I also play zerg and he commentates his own games, unlike Husky and HD.
You can also go to Starcraft Arena in the forums there is a strategy section, you could probably find a lot of information you need in there.
Edited, Sep 4th 2010 5:48am by Siesen
I basically spend half my days watching these SC2 commentary channels: Psy, Husky, and HD. Psy is probably my favorite, as I also play zerg and he commentates his own games, unlike Husky and HD.
You can also go to Starcraft Arena in the forums there is a strategy section, you could probably find a lot of information you need in there.
Edited, Sep 4th 2010 5:48am by Siesen
I'm the guy Maz is playing with, or rather getting owned with.
I actually only got the game yesterday, but before that I'd watched like 20 hours of HDstarcraft. At first I was just watching for the lulz, then I actually started learning things and got addicted. I'm doing fairly well in 1v1 (4 wins 5 losses, 6-th rank in Bronze), but in 2v2 we're just getting destroyed. Either we get outmacroed, or we find ourselves with 15 zealots in our base with a proxy pylon and an observer scouting the highground for him to warp in units (That game was Maz's fault for not expanding and scouting the pylon). In 1v1 I actually harass a lot more than I even think about doing in 2v2 for some reason. But yeah, we mostly lose the game to falling behind in economy, then we turtle up, giving the opponents the chance to expand, and at some point we forget to scout, harass and counter, which I rarely fail to do in 1v1. In 2v2 there's just too much happening at once for us to handle it seems.
Funny story, one game, we built up two 200 supply armies, and then a ghost came and nuked them down to 80-100 each. Nukes and stealth are OP. Watching replays, I didn't actually realize the enemy player couldn't see where the nukes were coming down, and we learned that the hard way.
Also, I owned Maz in 1v1.
Edited, Sep 4th 2010 12:12pm by Delinja
I actually only got the game yesterday, but before that I'd watched like 20 hours of HDstarcraft. At first I was just watching for the lulz, then I actually started learning things and got addicted. I'm doing fairly well in 1v1 (4 wins 5 losses, 6-th rank in Bronze), but in 2v2 we're just getting destroyed. Either we get outmacroed, or we find ourselves with 15 zealots in our base with a proxy pylon and an observer scouting the highground for him to warp in units (That game was Maz's fault for not expanding and scouting the pylon). In 1v1 I actually harass a lot more than I even think about doing in 2v2 for some reason. But yeah, we mostly lose the game to falling behind in economy, then we turtle up, giving the opponents the chance to expand, and at some point we forget to scout, harass and counter, which I rarely fail to do in 1v1. In 2v2 there's just too much happening at once for us to handle it seems.
Funny story, one game, we built up two 200 supply armies, and then a ghost came and nuked them down to 80-100 each. Nukes and stealth are OP. Watching replays, I didn't actually realize the enemy player couldn't see where the nukes were coming down, and we learned that the hard way.
Also, I owned Maz in 1v1.
Edited, Sep 4th 2010 12:12pm by Delinja
The medium AI is owning me in 1v1, Deli. Stop poking me, meanie. 
I've watched a lot of videos (thanks for the links, by the way), and I'm going to try out some of what I've learned. I'll still be held down by my decade-long habit of winning late through numbers. I am completely unable to multitask, so having to move my units around, not to mention use their individual abilities, while still keeping the production going, it's definitely going to be my biggest hurdle.
Also, early scouting and building more harvesters. I'm not used to scouting in strategy games, because either the map is already revealed (Total War games), or I know what race/faction the enemy is, or I know where their base is and what weaponry they have access to (I detest superweapons in strategy games, simply because they can ruin a good turtle).
And yeah, like Delinja mentioned, we didn't really have resource issues later on in the games, but by then we'd been turtling for too long and the enemy had time to either get in some nukes, or amass a larger army.
Oh, and yeah, the proxy pylon incident was my bad. Didn't know they could warp in stuff on high-ground with that crap.
And yes, nukes are OP. 100 gas and minerals or so, and the unit capable of "firing" it can be cloaked the entire time. Meh. It's like having a Dark Templar capable of firing a Vortex, with the Vortex destroying 9 out of 10 units in that area.
I've watched a lot of videos (thanks for the links, by the way), and I'm going to try out some of what I've learned. I'll still be held down by my decade-long habit of winning late through numbers. I am completely unable to multitask, so having to move my units around, not to mention use their individual abilities, while still keeping the production going, it's definitely going to be my biggest hurdle.
Also, early scouting and building more harvesters. I'm not used to scouting in strategy games, because either the map is already revealed (Total War games), or I know what race/faction the enemy is, or I know where their base is and what weaponry they have access to (I detest superweapons in strategy games, simply because they can ruin a good turtle).
And yeah, like Delinja mentioned, we didn't really have resource issues later on in the games, but by then we'd been turtling for too long and the enemy had time to either get in some nukes, or amass a larger army.
Oh, and yeah, the proxy pylon incident was my bad. Didn't know they could warp in stuff on high-ground with that crap.
And yes, nukes are OP. 100 gas and minerals or so, and the unit capable of "firing" it can be cloaked the entire time. Meh. It's like having a Dark Templar capable of firing a Vortex, with the Vortex destroying 9 out of 10 units in that area.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
But the game warns you when a nuke is initiated, and you can see where a nuke is being dropped, so it should never be able to take out that many units. You should be able to move them out of harms way.
Plus, if it's in your base you should have some detectors.
Plus, if it's in your base you should have some detectors.
◕ ‿‿ ◕
The only reason to be at 200/200 units is the game is for all intents and purposes over and you're just ******** around.
Quote:
The only reason to be at 200/200 units is the game is for all intents and purposes over and you're just ******** around.
Pfft. I was at 300/300 in a custom "Fastest Map Ever" game.
My computer wasn't nearly as amused as I was, though.
"The Rich are there to take all of the money & pay none of the taxes, the middle class is there to do all the work and pay all the taxes, and the poor are there to scare the crap out of the middle class." -George Carlin
Omegavegeta wrote:
Pfft. I was at 300/300 in a custom "Fastest Map Ever" game.
That's a lot of carriers.
Vataro wrote:
But the game warns you when a nuke is initiated,
Yes
Vataro wrote:
and you can see where a nuke is being dropped
No.
Vataro wrote:
Plus, if it's in your base you should have some detectors.
Did have detectors, but he took the only ones close enough to our units out with a land assault first. It was a tactical error on our behalf to keep them all in the same spot, though.
shintasama wrote:
The only reason to be at 200/200 units is the game is for all intents and purposes over and you're just ******** around.
His army was equally large. Once we fought off his first attacks and he fought off our first attacks, it basically became a battle to get the largest army first.
Like that other fight where our opponent sent over 100 Vikings. Good times. Should have built more Stalkers.
Edit: Also, the talk in the commented replays is great, though very slang heavy. Stuff like "I prefer to do a scout on eight" for example. I know what scouting is, but eight what? I'm guessing it's the build order, so eight is when
Also, I'm loving Day[9]'s replays, primarily because his humor is awesome. The 2v2 he did where his buddies were playing was just hilarious, especially since those players are on my level and he was just making fun of them. I've learned a lot about how to proceed with playing, but whenever I find myself actually playing, it's all "Oh noes, gotta get up... gotta.. get.. wait, what did I need again? Oh yeah, pylons, depots, gotta wall off my ramp, no wait, they're not Zerg, oh wait, maybe it's a good idea anyway." And not knowing all the hotkeys also sort of puts me at a disadvantage. I recently found out that Shift-F5 or something can be used to switch between main and natural expansion (see, I'm already learning the talk here), but I cannot hit Shift-F5 without using both hands, which just seems horribly ineffective compared to moving my mouse cursor over the minimap.
And I'm not even going to start on warp and force field placement. Seriously, I feel like I've got a major case of arthritis in every single joint in both hands compared to the guys playing in those replays. They put down 4-5 force fields in like a second, and warp in units at once, whereas I go "Click" (hotkey being pressed) - move - "Click" - move - "Cli-- oh, shoo, no room" - move more - "Click" and so on. My hand-eye coordination is super in real life because of my massive amount of nerding away on a computer, but this... this is just crazy.
If I had reflexes and precision like that, I'd probably go the surgeon route, or maybe become Spider-Man.
Edited, Sep 5th 2010 3:55pm by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
When they say something like scouting at 8 or 14 pool and 15 hatchery that means that that's what the food count is, that's how many drones/probes/scvs they have when they do it.
Also, if you hold down shift while you perform actions, it actually queues the same action up multiple times. What I mean is that when warping in multiple of the same unit, have all your warp gates selected and hit the hotkey, then hold shift and just spam left click in the area you want them to spawn.
Also, if you hold down shift while you perform actions, it actually queues the same action up multiple times. What I mean is that when warping in multiple of the same unit, have all your warp gates selected and hit the hotkey, then hold shift and just spam left click in the area you want them to spawn.
Quote:
Stuff like "I prefer to do a scout on eight" for example. I know what scouting is, but eight what? I'm guessing it's the build order, so eight is when unit/building number eight has been built?
Thanks, I found out and edited my post while you were writing yours, probably. Team Liquid's wiki is really helpful with the basic info.
As for using this method, I don't understand why, instead of (6 Pool build):
6 - Spawning Pool
7 - 6 zerglings
@6 zerglings - attack
@100 minerals - extractor
9 - 2 zerglings
10 - Cancel extractor
11 - Overlord
They don't just write:
1) Build a Spawning Pool
2) Create 6 Zerglings
3) Attack with Zerglings
4) Build an Extractor
5) Create 2 Zerglings
6) Cancel Extractor
7) Create an Overlord
Really, it's the same deal and makes it much easier to comprehend, at least for me. Instead of having to keep track of my supplies constantly, I'd just need to memorize a list of objectives. The supplies count just confuses me immensely.
As for using this method, I don't understand why, instead of (6 Pool build):
6 - Spawning Pool
7 - 6 zerglings
@6 zerglings - attack
@100 minerals - extractor
9 - 2 zerglings
10 - Cancel extractor
11 - Overlord
They don't just write:
1) Build a Spawning Pool
2) Create 6 Zerglings
3) Attack with Zerglings
4) Build an Extractor
5) Create 2 Zerglings
6) Cancel Extractor
7) Create an Overlord
Really, it's the same deal and makes it much easier to comprehend, at least for me. Instead of having to keep track of my supplies constantly, I'd just need to memorize a list of objectives. The supplies count just confuses me immensely.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Because how you manage your early economy/supplies/workers in order to get that initial batch of zerglings out as fast as possible is important. Putting it in terms of X supply is just more specific.
What's the point of canceling the extractor?
Can't sleep, clown will eat me.
TirithRR wrote:
What's the point of canceling the extractor?
Are you talking about when someone builds an extractor in their own base and cancels it? Or when someone builds an extractor in the enemies base and cancels it?
In the former, it has to do with getting a drone above your actual food supply limit. You build an extractor while at max drones and immediately train another drone, putting you at the food limit again, then cancel the extractor to get the drone back. Now you'll be at one over the supply limit. This is so you have another drone before your overlord needs to finish.
Edited, Sep 5th 2010 7:16pm by Siesen
The early min/max seems largely useless in the bracket we're in. People just build stuff and attack. If the initial attacks fail, both retract and rebuild - sometimes into another tech, sometimes just a gazillion of whatever they were building before.
After this thread, we decided to go with an early Reaper harass followed by a MMM rush. Since I'm rubbish at micro, but sorta know how to keep unit production and resources flowing by now, I would take care of the macro, gathering resources and building units. Due to shared unit control, Delinja could then take those units into battle, being a much better micro player than I am.
So far, as long as the map is small enough to prevent massive 40-minute fights, or the opponent expands early, or is ZP versus our TT, we more or less win, thanks to Reaper harassment and one player controlling two players' worth of units in the early stages without sacrificing macro. Almost got the 5 in a row achievement, but then we went up against another TT team on a huge map, and we failed our MMM rush and didn't expand fast enough, allowing them to get ahead in production, ending it all with a massive Battlecruiser assault on us.
Since neither of us are strong in the macro stages of the game (I'm handling macro and I don't really know what counters what), any tips on how to proceed when it's TTvTT and your opponent seems to throw endless amounts of Marines in your face, with just enough Siege Tanks for you to not be able to Hellion spam them? We went MMM and Siege to counter it, but the sheer amount of forces they threw out was crazy (both were around 150-180 units in late game, whereas we were 110-150) prevented us from capturing any land or expands. Should we have gone mass Hellion early on anyway to clear out and just rushed them with a MMM group anyway?
We barely secured two expands (one each) while they had three or four each. Whenever we assaulted an expand, they'd either force us back, or simply take another expand, preferably one of ours, with about 200 supplies worth in Marines.
Edited, Sep 6th 2010 2:57am by Mazra
After this thread, we decided to go with an early Reaper harass followed by a MMM rush. Since I'm rubbish at micro, but sorta know how to keep unit production and resources flowing by now, I would take care of the macro, gathering resources and building units. Due to shared unit control, Delinja could then take those units into battle, being a much better micro player than I am.
So far, as long as the map is small enough to prevent massive 40-minute fights, or the opponent expands early, or is ZP versus our TT, we more or less win, thanks to Reaper harassment and one player controlling two players' worth of units in the early stages without sacrificing macro. Almost got the 5 in a row achievement, but then we went up against another TT team on a huge map, and we failed our MMM rush and didn't expand fast enough, allowing them to get ahead in production, ending it all with a massive Battlecruiser assault on us.
Since neither of us are strong in the macro stages of the game (I'm handling macro and I don't really know what counters what), any tips on how to proceed when it's TTvTT and your opponent seems to throw endless amounts of Marines in your face, with just enough Siege Tanks for you to not be able to Hellion spam them? We went MMM and Siege to counter it, but the sheer amount of forces they threw out was crazy (both were around 150-180 units in late game, whereas we were 110-150) prevented us from capturing any land or expands. Should we have gone mass Hellion early on anyway to clear out and just rushed them with a MMM group anyway?
We barely secured two expands (one each) while they had three or four each. Whenever we assaulted an expand, they'd either force us back, or simply take another expand, preferably one of ours, with about 200 supplies worth in Marines.
Edited, Sep 6th 2010 2:57am by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Quote:
The early min/max seems largely useless in the bracket we're in. People just build stuff and attack. If the initial attacks fail, both retract and rebuild - sometimes into another tech, sometimes just a gazillion of whatever they were building before.
I don't play the game, but it sounds like you're being far too reactive. While you have to respond to certain things (in which case it is generally the goal to keep them from doing enough damage to put you on the back foot) it should always be your goal to dictate the game. It's pretty much the golden rule for any RTS.
The min/max should help you because it'll mean you have your guys in their base before they have any defence. The incompetence of your enemies is rarely a barrier to success.
Kavekk is right. Sitting back and letting them build an army is not a winning strategy. You need to keep them on the defensive, and with that you will find that you will gain more map control as they will be scared to expand too far, and from that it will be much easier for you to win.
As for counters to Terran with Terran, Marines are a great counter to... Marines. Siege Tanks are especially awesome if you can get the hang of getting them in and out of siege mode in a timely fashion to stay with your army but be useful in the big fights.
Also, don't underestimate the power a starport with reactors. Medivacs are obviously useful in an MMM situation (being part of the name), but Vikings can also be very useful. They can take out medivacs and thus cripple an otherwise powerful army, and are also useful against Terrans who like to try to run their buildings away during a fight.
As for counters to Terran with Terran, Marines are a great counter to... Marines. Siege Tanks are especially awesome if you can get the hang of getting them in and out of siege mode in a timely fashion to stay with your army but be useful in the big fights.
Also, don't underestimate the power a starport with reactors. Medivacs are obviously useful in an MMM situation (being part of the name), but Vikings can also be very useful. They can take out medivacs and thus cripple an otherwise powerful army, and are also useful against Terrans who like to try to run their buildings away during a fight.
◕ ‿‿ ◕
Day9, who comments a lot of replays, mentioned in one of his recent casts that a lot of Vikings, Medivacs and Marauders in late game was a good way to go. Often late games turn into both sides building a massive, but rather immobile army, which turns into basically a midfield stand-off where the biggest wins. With a strike team composed of primarily drop ships (that heal) and fast anti-air/anti-ground, you have the mobility needed to outmaneuver your opponent.
Problem seems to be that we go for primarily land assaults in late game, while our opponents counter it with a 200 supplies worth in the biggest air units available (massive Cruiser or Carrier army).
Definitely helps a lot to watch all those replays, but because my micro sucks, our initial push is limited to a quick Reaper harass followed by a small MMM group. If that doesn't win the game for us, we usually hold our own until late game where we get pwned by some massive fleet.
A quick Medivac, Viking and Marauder strike to their expansion earlier on would probably ensure control of the airspace, which would eliminate the possibility of being overwhelmed like that. Only issue is that a VMM approach like that would be vulnerable to static defense, unless we can unload the Marauders close enough to take out the towers.
Anyway, learning by doing, right? Going to get some more tries under our belt tonight. Considering I have zero Starcraft experience and only some 24 games played in Starcraft 2, I'd say we're progressing nicely. From Bronze 86 to Bronze 18 in one or two days. Also helps that we're facing even players now, after the massive amount of low-ranked advanced players we stumbled across in the beginning.
Edit: In an attempt to get better at (or just learn) micro-management, I decided to do some 1v1 as Protoss. Funny story, I'm now in Gold (rank 100
) after winning four out of five games, losing the fifth to another Protoss player who went 4-Gate Push against my 2-Gate Push, meaning when he beat back my initial assault, he could warp in twice as many Stalkers.
It was good practice and fun to handle things on a smaller scale for a change.
Oh, and I learned something as well, being a complete nub at Protoss. If your 2-Gate Push is being denied by mass Stalkers, don't go 4-Gate Robotics, go Robotics right away and get a load of Immortals. Had no idea what unit countered Stalkers until I finally got an Immortal out and saw it kill two Stalkers before it fell to the remaining six.
Edited, Sep 7th 2010 3:01am by Mazra
Problem seems to be that we go for primarily land assaults in late game, while our opponents counter it with a 200 supplies worth in the biggest air units available (massive Cruiser or Carrier army).
Definitely helps a lot to watch all those replays, but because my micro sucks, our initial push is limited to a quick Reaper harass followed by a small MMM group. If that doesn't win the game for us, we usually hold our own until late game where we get pwned by some massive fleet.
A quick Medivac, Viking and Marauder strike to their expansion earlier on would probably ensure control of the airspace, which would eliminate the possibility of being overwhelmed like that. Only issue is that a VMM approach like that would be vulnerable to static defense, unless we can unload the Marauders close enough to take out the towers.
Anyway, learning by doing, right? Going to get some more tries under our belt tonight. Considering I have zero Starcraft experience and only some 24 games played in Starcraft 2, I'd say we're progressing nicely. From Bronze 86 to Bronze 18 in one or two days. Also helps that we're facing even players now, after the massive amount of low-ranked advanced players we stumbled across in the beginning.
Edit: In an attempt to get better at (or just learn) micro-management, I decided to do some 1v1 as Protoss. Funny story, I'm now in Gold (rank 100
) after winning four out of five games, losing the fifth to another Protoss player who went 4-Gate Push against my 2-Gate Push, meaning when he beat back my initial assault, he could warp in twice as many Stalkers. It was good practice and fun to handle things on a smaller scale for a change.
Oh, and I learned something as well, being a complete nub at Protoss. If your 2-Gate Push is being denied by mass Stalkers, don't go 4-Gate Robotics, go Robotics right away and get a load of Immortals. Had no idea what unit countered Stalkers until I finally got an Immortal out and saw it kill two Stalkers before it fell to the remaining six.
Edited, Sep 7th 2010 3:01am by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Immortals are great against any sort of "bio" unit. Colossus' w/extended thermal lance are even better though!
Also, do not underestimate High Templars against a mass of anything bio. Storm destroys them.
Also, do not underestimate High Templars against a mass of anything bio. Storm destroys them.
"The Rich are there to take all of the money & pay none of the taxes, the middle class is there to do all the work and pay all the taxes, and the poor are there to scare the crap out of the middle class." -George Carlin
Yeah, didn't have time to get out a Colossus, though, with all those Stalkers beating down my door. Alos, one Colossus costs as much as two Gateways.
Could've sworn I wrote 'door' to begin with.
Edited, Sep 7th 2010 10:39pm by Mazra
Could've sworn I wrote 'door' to begin with.
Edited, Sep 7th 2010 10:39pm by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
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