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#1 Dec 09 2011 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Linky

Well he got around to sharing some thoughts on where they're going with development of this new-fangled thing. Response #5 made me smile a bit:

Quote:
5. "I like being better than noobs."

It was surprising and a bit disappointing at how frequently we saw this argument. The players in question fully admit that they don't experiment to find the best build. They accept the cookie cutter spec that is offered from a website, but then they use the fact that they knew the cookie cutter to mock players who don't. Intimate knowledge of game mechanics certainly is and should be a component of skill. But knowing how to Google "4.3 Shadow spec" doesn't automatically make you a better player. Sorry, but I’m just going to dismiss this one as an illegitimate concern.


Other noteworthy quotes:

Quote:
Once upon a time, you got a new talent point every level. That worked okay for a game with 60 levels. It works less well for a game with 90 levels. It probably is totally incomprehensible for a game with 150 levels, should we ever get there.


Quote:
Look, we tried the talent tree model for seven years. We think it’s fundamentally flawed and unfixable. We know some of you have faith in us that someday we’ll eventually replace all of the boring +5% crit talents with interesting talents and give you 80 talent points that you can spend wherever, and that the game will still remain relatively balanced and fun. We greatly appreciate your faith, but we fear it is misplaced. It’s not a matter of coming up with enough fun mechanics, which is challenging but ultimately doable. The problem is the extreme number of combinations. When you have such a gigantic matrix, the chances of having unbeatable synergies, or combinations of talents that just don’t work together is really high. That’s not lazy design. That is recognizing how math works.


Quote:
I am slightly amused by the number of comments that say "The theorycrafters will just math out which is the right talent and we'll all just pick that one." But the theorycrafters aren’t agreeing with those comments, because they know they won’t be able to.


He seems to be going from hopeful, to frustrated, to defensive, to excited and back again. I imagine some of that is the audience. Being forced to defend your ideas to people who haven't seem them in action yet isn't easy. On the other hand I'm still skeptical. I'm hoping they'll design encounters where some of these abilities will be useful then they appear at the moment.

Thoughts?

Edit: wrong link Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, Dec 9th 2011 8:34am by someproteinguy
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#2 Dec 09 2011 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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Personally, I don't know why they wanted to move away from +x% talents. Spending talent points on +crit isn't the most exciting thing, sure, but I feel it's more fun than spending one talent point every 20 levels on something that may or may not impact your gameplay at all.

Call me old fashioned.
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#3 Dec 09 2011 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
Personally, I don't know why they wanted to move away from +x% talents. Spending talent points on +crit isn't the most exciting thing, sure, but I feel it's more fun than spending one talent point every 20 levels on something that may or may not impact your gameplay at all.


I hear you. Exactly why I am less than thrilled with the path they are going down with D3.
For the last year or so I find myself agreeing less and less with the development philosophy Blizzard is applying to their products.
Meh. Maybe I switch to Path of Exile / Torchlight 2 altogether and skip D3. As for WoW... apart from raiding I'm not logging on too often the last couple of weeks. :(
#4 Dec 09 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
Personally, I don't know why they wanted to move away from +x% talents. Spending talent points on +crit isn't the most exciting thing, sure, but I feel it's more fun than spending one talent point every 20 levels on something that may or may not impact your gameplay at all.


Yeah I don't understand (and maybe this is me just 'not getting' design and stuff) is why they feel they have to move away from those as well. I suppose I'm lost a little here.

The thing that I keep getting hung up on isn't that we have a +1% crit talent as an option, it's that +1% crit is always the correction option. Don't get me wrong I understand why you'd want to maximize your DPS output in a raid, and you'll get no complaining about that from me. Heck I did it as well. But why aren't there utility/CD/survival talents that are competitors with even the smallest DPS increase? If you don't want people to be a 'glass cannon' give them a good reason not to be one.

The fact that you're almost universally in a situation where you'll take a 0.1% DPS increase over anything else says, well to me at least, that these other talents aren't well designed. Or, you could say the encounters are never designed where you'd want anything besides MOAR PWR! Call me crazy but I can't get past thinking the +0.1% DPS talent isn't the problem, it's the utility talent you never have a use for outside of PvP.

I realize at the other end of the spectrum you don't want to create a FF-style system where people are just blowing over-powered CDs one at a time. Imagine a raid where you have everyone in 25-man hit a 15-second damage-mitigation CD in progression as the other end of the spectrum. Hmmm... I can see why they wouldn't want to take it to that extreme.

Still it's hard to believe there is no middle ground there.

/ramble
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#5 Dec 09 2011 at 3:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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The thing is, when they have put viable utility talents in the old trees in the past, bad things tended to happen:
- it broke PvP
- class stacking became too powerful and broke the hardcore boss-kill race
- classes that didn't have it drowned us in QQ (which is why we don't have real hybrids anymore)
- they couldn't balance 10-man raids around having it or around not having it
- Elitist Jerks told everyone to just spec into max DPS anyway, which dumped an additional burden on healers

I'm willing to give them a chance. They're making the right noises for me, and they have a whole year to come up with enough ideas. While I'd like it if Blizzard agreed with me that rock-paper-scissors PvP would be OK and that it's perfectly fine if some 10-man comps struggle more than others on some bosses (our first LK kill had a healadin and a tankadin snaring Valkyries) - they're not going to, ever. And that ties their hands, but they seem to understand that and that they'd like to at least fill the boundaries they are forced to work within.
#6 Dec 09 2011 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
ElMuneco wrote:

I'm willing to give them a chance. They're making the right noises for me, and they have a whole year to come up with enough ideas. While I'd like it if Blizzard agreed with me that rock-paper-scissors PvP would be OK and that it's perfectly fine if some 10-man comps struggle more than others on some bosses (our first LK kill had a healadin and a tankadin snaring Valkyries) - they're not going to, ever. And that ties their hands, but they seem to understand that and that they'd like to at least fill the boundaries they are forced to work within.


I agree with you on those with one caveat on 10-man comps. Having some classes do better at a mechanic than others is fine, but things like Yogg-Saron (need X melee and Y ranged because the mechanic each is needed for punishes the other) really caused problems for guilds running with a "who showed up today" composition, and the 10-man cut out all the wiggle room that the 25 had.
#7 Dec 09 2011 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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He seems hung up on the "Interesting decisions" theme, and I understand his logic. It makes sense...

However - most, if not all of the talents/abilities are meaningless to me. They are secondary abilities or only situationally important and no matter how much he wants to say that it's a hard and interesting choice - For the majority of the tiers I've seen.... It's just not important to me.
#8 Dec 09 2011 at 5:19 PM Rating: Good
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selebrin wrote:
I agree with you on those with one caveat on 10-man comps. Having some classes do better at a mechanic than others is fine, but things like Yogg-Saron (need X melee and Y ranged because the mechanic each is needed for punishes the other) really caused problems for guilds running with a "who showed up today" composition, and the 10-man cut out all the wiggle room that the 25 had.


The problem is that Blizzard is saying one thing and doing the complete opposite.

Bring the player, not the class - unless it's a ranged class.
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#9 Dec 09 2011 at 5:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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The flaw that the talent trees have is the devs.

For the first five years of the game I played a hunter, so other classes experiences might be different.

In vanilla I used a non-cookie cutter spec and went against the +hit is god mentality (unless I was on tranq duty). I managed to be at the top of the dps charts until they changed the skills and talents in BC.

BC and Wrath you were pretty much forced into a one or two specs. But I did meet quite a few that went against the grain.

Cata made it mandatory to put so many in one tree while at the same time gave us less points. Of course it's going to be almost all cookie cutter specs, there really is no choice. They tried dumbing it down and making it "fun".

Now they want to give us even less choices and less points, because they are sure it's going to fix it. Heh.

I'm sure cookie cutter specs will go away. :p
#10 Dec 09 2011 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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Simply put the new talent trees offer just as little "REAL" choice as what we currently have in Cataclysm or what we had before that in WotLK or TBC. Only now we have even fewer predetermined choices to make.

Why replace broken product with something that has the same inherent flaw?
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