The question is if it’s not included in the default UI, should it be banned. If you don’t use DBM, decurser and Healer add-ons you are presently at disadvantage in raiding.
So using those should it be considering “cheating†if it gives you advantage? What about AH add-ons?
Can a 25 heroics can be done without add-ons?
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RAWDEAL wrote:
The question is if it’s not included in the default UI, should it be banned.
No? I mean, maybe this was a "question" five+ years ago, but why would it be one now? Blizzard is fine with it.
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So using those should it be considering “cheating†if it gives you advantage? What about AH add-ons?
No, and no. It's "cheating" if it automates the game for you.
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Can a 25 heroics can be done without add-ons?
Probably, but it would be tougher. You could do them with poor gear on too. Doesn't mean the player with better gear is cheating.
#4REDACTED,
Posted: Dec 05 2011 at 9:03 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Add-ons gets more sophisticated, using those do gives you advantage (looking at you arena). The “Blizz is fine†justification is old also, they didn't have a choice. Gamers likes cheat codes, but when it's a requirement for raiding or arena...
However inventive an addon might be, it uses the tools Blizzard provides. When they don't like something, .lua gets changed. When something becomes popular enough, they integrate it.
Looks like things are still working as intended.
RAW doesn't deal in subtlety. Just how much that is the case tends to depend on how bored he is and how much he has been drinking.
Looks like things are still working as intended.
Quote:
Too obvious.
RAW doesn't deal in subtlety. Just how much that is the case tends to depend on how bored he is and how much he has been drinking.
When I clicked on this thread I fully expected a necrothread from years past, because I'm like 110% sure I saw a thread titled like this some time during BC.
Answer: No, it's not cheating if the developers fully expect you to use them. And they do.
Answer: No, it's not cheating if the developers fully expect you to use them. And they do.
#7REDACTED,
Posted: Dec 05 2011 at 10:29 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I did have this conversation with guild members on how good would you do without add-ons. Most players can't play without it...Hic!
If I leveled to cap without questhelper you can too! 
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
RAWDEAL wrote:
Rhodekylle wrote:
RAW doesn't deal in subtlety. Just how much that is the case tends to depend on how bored he is and how much he has been drinking.
Only one I'd have trouble functioning without is Hearkitty. Combo points as sounds, brilliant. I keep meaning to go in and change the audio files to the Close Encounters ditty.
Even Blizzard GM's expect you to have add-ons. I was having trouble getting an exploration achievement, one spot on one map is all that remains for the continent achievement. I know how to "read" co-ords manually in that a 50,50 spot is middle left and right and middle up and down... 25,50 is 1/4 of the way from the left halfway up... 75,50 is 3/4 of the way from the left halfway up.... so I know I'm in the right area looking for the spot. It's in Southshore and I was pointed to wowhead's thread giving me the co-ords I was using. I know I'm at the right spot due to a point that is 1 up and 1 left from it being discovered... but it refuses to uncover. But that's all the help he would give me is point me to wowheads thread indicating co-ordinates for the exploration and then in theory make me get an addon to use them.
Gwenorgan wrote:
Even Blizzard GM's expect you to have add-ons. I was having trouble getting an exploration achievement, one spot on one map is all that remains for the continent achievement. I know how to "read" co-ords manually in that a 50,50 spot is middle left and right and middle up and down... 25,50 is 1/4 of the way from the left halfway up... 75,50 is 3/4 of the way from the left halfway up.... so I know I'm in the right area looking for the spot. It's in Southshore and I was pointed to wowhead's thread giving me the co-ords I was using. I know I'm at the right spot due to a point that is 1 up and 1 left from it being discovered... but it refuses to uncover. But that's all the help he would give me is point me to wowheads thread indicating co-ordinates for the exploration and then in theory make me get an addon to use them.
You can make a macro to output the coordinates for you, it's just harder to use than getting an add-on to constantly output your location.
As for raid healing, most of the add-on functions can be replicated with macros. It's just a lot easier to go in and edit VuhDo than it is to change 3 or 4 macros.
selebrin wrote:
Only one I'd have trouble functioning without is Hearkitty. Combo points as sounds, brilliant. I keep meaning to go in and change the audio files to the Close Encounters ditty.
As a Kitty Dudu, this. This a million times. I'm usually staring at my Ellipsis timers while I'm playing, so being able to hear if an attack created one or two combo points (and when you're combo point capped) is so critical.
Bonus info: HearKitty works with other classes that use some kind of stacking buff mechanic, like Holy Power for Paladins, Maelstrom Weapon for Shaman and, obviously, combo points for Rogues.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
RAWDEAL wrote:
The question is if it’s not included in the default UI, should it be banned. If you don’t use DBM, decurser and Healer add-ons you are presently at disadvantage in raiding.
So using those should it be considering “cheating†if it gives you advantage? What about AH add-ons?
Can a 25 heroics can be done without add-ons?
So using those should it be considering “cheating†if it gives you advantage? What about AH add-ons?
Can a 25 heroics can be done without add-ons?
Here, let me define the word for your addled brain.
Quote:
Cheating, a verb. To act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.
Acting to give yourself an advantage is only cheating if it is done dishonestly or unfairly. Addons are available for everyone to use via sites like Curse and WoWinterface. One could argue that using add ons isn't even giving you an advantage since anyone can use them.
I once had an argument with a former roommate of mine because he claimed that me using a walk through for a video game was cheating because it gave me an unintended advantage. I told him it wasn't cheating, because everyone had access to the same walk through, and I wasn't breaking any rules. Some people are just dense.
In fairness, he did add quotation marks around cheating. I would have used the word cheating as well, had I been the one asking the question, and I would've used quotation marks, too, to show that I realize it's not cheating by the standard definition, but it was the closest I could come to a word that resembles whatever I'm going for.
That said, the definition of cheating is somewhat vague. It's considered cheating if I, in Skyrim, open up the console and type in 'tgm'. It's called a 'cheat code' for that very reason. I'm not hurting anyone by doing it and everyone can get the same cheat codes from pretty much anywhere on the internet. It's still called cheating, though.
The reason it's considered cheating to use those codes is because you cheat the game's mechanics, thereby gaining an unfair advantage. That, I believe, is what RAWDEAL is arguing. That using addons is cheating the game's mechanics, assuming the game was meant to be played without addons.
As for the question... I don't really know. Sometimes I do feel that some addons might be taking it all a bit too far. We've got addons that tell us when to move, where to move to and even why (not that it matters). Some addons keep records of our activities, even importing records from other users, giving us optimal resource gathering routes. Some addons notify us of our opponents before our own eyes can register it and shows us what abilities they're using (Swifty is even using an addon that verbally tells him what is being used around him).
I think it's pretty clear that players who go addon heavy are at an advantage, but it's not necessarily unfair, at least not towards others, since everyone has the ability to download those addons and run them.
It's definitely unfair towards the game's mechanics, though, so I'd label it as cheating in that sense. As long as everyone can cheat, though, it's not a problem.
That said, the definition of cheating is somewhat vague. It's considered cheating if I, in Skyrim, open up the console and type in 'tgm'. It's called a 'cheat code' for that very reason. I'm not hurting anyone by doing it and everyone can get the same cheat codes from pretty much anywhere on the internet. It's still called cheating, though.
The reason it's considered cheating to use those codes is because you cheat the game's mechanics, thereby gaining an unfair advantage. That, I believe, is what RAWDEAL is arguing. That using addons is cheating the game's mechanics, assuming the game was meant to be played without addons.
As for the question... I don't really know. Sometimes I do feel that some addons might be taking it all a bit too far. We've got addons that tell us when to move, where to move to and even why (not that it matters). Some addons keep records of our activities, even importing records from other users, giving us optimal resource gathering routes. Some addons notify us of our opponents before our own eyes can register it and shows us what abilities they're using (Swifty is even using an addon that verbally tells him what is being used around him).
I think it's pretty clear that players who go addon heavy are at an advantage, but it's not necessarily unfair, at least not towards others, since everyone has the ability to download those addons and run them.
It's definitely unfair towards the game's mechanics, though, so I'd label it as cheating in that sense. As long as everyone can cheat, though, it's not a problem.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
If they (game creators) had a locked down interface that they insisted EVERYONE could only use it, then using the addons may go that way ("cheating"), but with their adapting / absorbing functions of "addons" into the basic game mechanics where the original design was lacking... that's just good sense, without the addons they wouldn't "know" what features people want to see in their interface...
Edited, Dec 5th 2011 5:49pm by Gwenorgan
Edited, Dec 5th 2011 5:49pm by Gwenorgan
Personally i go very light on addons and DBM recount Quartz thats it. I know alot of people were having issues with there addons come patch day and it actually cut 1h 30m off our raid time to fix the issue. I think if you wanna use addons thats fine but it can really effect the people around you if you can't raid without addons.
Just killed Deathwing without add-ons. We'll see how heroics go tomorrow.
the only addons i use are recount and npcscan. ever since i started wow i just never used any of the others. when rading iv never used dbm or any other, and since i never heal i dont need any of those addons. theres the odd time i miss something but staying out of fire or whatever the boss is thowing at you is usually not that hard to avoid.
I use Recount because it gives me a measure of my performance but for my own benefit only.
I use Auctionator because of the current habit of posting stackable items singly. For some it makes sense but if I want several stacks of something an addon makes it much simpler than individually approving each buy in the standard interface.
Neither of those is cheating anything.
When I raided I used DBM and it does make it easier but before it we used to - you know - talk to each other. One of the skills of a raid leader used to be briefing the troops. Now it seems to be watch the video, use dbm, answer ready check.
As for the gathering addons they are quite funny really. You can spot the people on their pre-planned route and shortcut them. Free will and a good memory will always be a lot more flexible than a semi-afk gatherer (and a lot better than a completely afk one which of course is cheating - but I do love seeing the skeletons by the node locations
)
Having done much larger raids than 25 people with no addons, no voice comms, and worse graphics of course it can be done. But it would require re-learning old skills - and for many people they would be entirely new skills - like "listening" .
Where I would have to hover on the edge of "cheating" is with ones like NPCScan. This is giving information which you maybe cannot see but has been fed to your client in case you look in the right direction. I'm sure that everyone who relies on it to spot their rares will be up in arms but it is a personal opinion.
Long ago I played with a healing add that basically put up a button for whoever needed a heal and even which heal and you just clicked it. It felt all wrong and I believe its been changed anyway.
Perhaps that is a difference between a game and a team sport. I don't enjoy clicking a button that has pre-made my choices for me - it is not a "good game" for me. But if team success is the prime objective and the addon is more efficient than I am then I can either step aside for someone who is better (or quite happy with the addon) or risk "letting the team down" by trying to soldier on without.
It is a social pressure and perhaps the argument is not really about cheating but yet again about "dumbing down".
I use Auctionator because of the current habit of posting stackable items singly. For some it makes sense but if I want several stacks of something an addon makes it much simpler than individually approving each buy in the standard interface.
Neither of those is cheating anything.
When I raided I used DBM and it does make it easier but before it we used to - you know - talk to each other. One of the skills of a raid leader used to be briefing the troops. Now it seems to be watch the video, use dbm, answer ready check.
As for the gathering addons they are quite funny really. You can spot the people on their pre-planned route and shortcut them. Free will and a good memory will always be a lot more flexible than a semi-afk gatherer (and a lot better than a completely afk one which of course is cheating - but I do love seeing the skeletons by the node locations
) Having done much larger raids than 25 people with no addons, no voice comms, and worse graphics of course it can be done. But it would require re-learning old skills - and for many people they would be entirely new skills - like "listening" .
Where I would have to hover on the edge of "cheating" is with ones like NPCScan. This is giving information which you maybe cannot see but has been fed to your client in case you look in the right direction. I'm sure that everyone who relies on it to spot their rares will be up in arms but it is a personal opinion.
Long ago I played with a healing add that basically put up a button for whoever needed a heal and even which heal and you just clicked it. It felt all wrong and I believe its been changed anyway.
Perhaps that is a difference between a game and a team sport. I don't enjoy clicking a button that has pre-made my choices for me - it is not a "good game" for me. But if team success is the prime objective and the addon is more efficient than I am then I can either step aside for someone who is better (or quite happy with the addon) or risk "letting the team down" by trying to soldier on without.
It is a social pressure and perhaps the argument is not really about cheating but yet again about "dumbing down".
Wherever I go - there I am.
When you play a game in my house, you play by my rules. I set the rules before the game begins and decide at my sole discretion if I think you are cheating.
If you find a creative way to play within the rules that gives you an advantage, good for you! If I deem that it cheapens the game, I will change the rules for next time.
Back in WoW 1.x, you could effectively mod the game to play for you. One example was a healing mod I used to use for BGs. I could hide at a bush at Blacksmith (AB) and spam a single button. The mod would scan around me for the friendly player with the lowest health. Then, depending on that player's health %, it would choose the best heal. It was ridiculous - but I had to use it because enemy healers were using it.
When Blizzard modified the UI language for 2.0, they changed the entire engine and prevented mods like this from functioning. Mods can no longer choose spells or targets for you, but they can make it easier for you to choose a target and a spell and get them off without having to set up a complicated conditional macro or select a target manually for each heal.
All legal UI mods (in other words, mods that go in your AddOns directory) will help you play the game but will not play the game for you. There is a huge difference. Anyone who thinks it's cheating is just plain wrong. It's Blizzard's house - they made the rules, built them into the LUA engine that handles the interface layer of WoW, and they have full control over what is allowed.
I have met players who have internally decided that UI mods are cheating and don't use them. That is their own decision. However please don't impose that on others. The rules are the rules, and they say that you are wrong.
i dont think its cheating, but on a kinda side note, what i find funny is how sooo many people are complaining about DS being soo easy, and i imagine not all, but MOST are using many addons such as DBM to MAKE IT EASIER! If its too easy, rather than complain why not turn off all your addons and then give it a go, and actually have to pay attention to what you are doing?
just a thought :)
just a thought :)
The thing is Blizzard designs these encounters for players that use addons.
I always disliked this argument. "If X is too easy strip of your gear/play with one hand/whatever."
No! I want to equip/gem/enchant my character to the best of my knowledge and abilities and I want to use the addons I'm comfortable with and THEN I want a challenge! Gimping myself so that something is a bit of a struggle is just plain stupid.
I always disliked this argument. "If X is too easy strip of your gear/play with one hand/whatever."
No! I want to equip/gem/enchant my character to the best of my knowledge and abilities and I want to use the addons I'm comfortable with and THEN I want a challenge! Gimping myself so that something is a bit of a struggle is just plain stupid.
TherealLogros wrote:
The thing is Blizzard designs these encounters for players that use addons.
I always disliked this argument. "If X is too easy strip of your gear/play with one hand/whatever."
I always disliked this argument. "If X is too easy strip of your gear/play with one hand/whatever."
Back in my day, when Zul'Aman was a raid and the cool thing to do, I'd go in with my shammy healer and heal naked! Up hill... Both ways...
We all know you heal naked still! All the pros do.
Wanna PUG?
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
http://youtu.be/MNS9MzGOQtU
So speaks Sinestro!
So speaks Sinestro!
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