OMFG Pandaren? I'm quitting! And here's why...Follow

I think the term "racism" gets severely overused, and this thread seems to bear that out.

Outside of WoW, I am perfectly within my rights to like or dislike anybody I want, as long as I don't infringe on their rights by doing so.

In WoW, there is no such necessity of holding back the dislike. The humans hold a deep-seated hatred of orcs ever since the first time they laid seige to Stormwind. Yes, the current horde isn't the same orcs that attacked Stormwind, but they are orcs nonetheless. When Thrall was in charge it may have been ok to talk about peace because that's the kind of leader Thrall was. Now with Garrosh in charge, peace is the last thing the Horde wants to discuss.

Varian as a leader isn't much better. I'm not entirely sure why, but he is hell-bent on erasing any of the peace that had been established between the Horde and Alliance while he was benig held captive. I'm not saying he's as bloodthirsty as Garrosh, but he certainly won't back down from a fight, especially one he thinks he can win.

And Idiggory, if "these bastards want to kill me" isn't enough motivation for you to take part in the conlict, then I don't know what is.

As for me, I'll be on my rogue, ganking hordies whenever possible.

You're all looking at just the inter-species hatred what about the internal strife of the different groups? Aren't those stinking centaur in desolace still at each others throats and they're just tribes within the overall species? Or what about the defias crap vs human, there are infighting groups within a lot of what is in the game, if we can't get along with all those around us that are like us how the heck are we supposed to get along with those that differ from us?



Edited, Oct 25th 2011 11:41am by Gwenorgan

The problem in my mind is that the hatred still seems forced in the storylines. They've thrown in some narrative with the cataclysm zones that make it all feel a little more plausible at least, but it's still less than compelling.

Still you can get left with this feeling that the two sides are just bickering while the real threat to the world goes on ignored. In the past there were those who rose above the faction squabbling and you relied on them to get things done: The Shattered Sun, Ashen Verdict, Earthen Ring, Guardians of Hyjal, etc. In the meantime the alliance and horde fought a battle that was rather meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Given that past it's hard to really want to dive headlong into the squabbling and bickering over land. I suppose when Deathwing is dead maybe it'll all make a little more sense, but right now the fight over Ashenvale seems pretty meaningless if Deathwing tears the world apart. Who wants to come together with the other side to defeat a enemy just to return to petty bickering?

Not like Thrall didn't leave to go fight more meaningful battles too.

When I said "anybody", I meant a group of people. If I want to hate Polish people, I have that right. As long as my hate of Polish people does not cause me to infringe on their rights, like say if I was a business owner and charged Poles more than non-Poles.

And yes, on a fundamental level, racism is just hatred of an entire group of people. Try not to get racism and prejudice confused. That is an important, and not exactly fine, distinction.

PS: I hope no Poles were offended in the reading of this post. I certainly do not have anything against Poles or anything Polish in general. I'm not actually certain I know any Polish people. I simply picked them because certain other groups seem to get easily inflamed even when using them as an example.

If you don't hire someone because of race, you are being prejudiced towards them.

Racism leads to prejudice, not the other way around.

In other words, racism is the belief, prejudice is the acting out of that belief.

Edit: Actually, the more I think about this, the less certain I am. I can see how someone could consider prejudice the beliefs as well. Bah, I'm done with the conversation. It's just getting me confused.

Edited, Oct 25th 2011 11:32am by Bigdaddyjug

You're still being a kumquat.

You cite your grandfather as an example. He had a problem with people he fought a war against; either side would have shot the other for the uniform they wore. Because he fought the Japanese, you can say he was racist by your use, but had he fought in a different theater of operations he would have done the same things (probably resulting in similar feelings) against Germans and it wouldn't have been racist. Wiesenthal was Jewish and hunted Borman, is that to be dismissed as racism?

There were threads of racism in WWII, also colonialism, struggle for resources and other elements. No single factor fully explains that conflict. Why would a struggle in the virtual world be any less complex?

Also, you keep using "we" and "our". As my teachers used to ask in the old days, do you have a mouse in your pocket?

I think part of the problem is people trying to escape it. If you have a problem with a certain race or ethnicity, get it out in the open and try to figure out why.

I bet a lot of people would lose some of their racism if they just got to know more people of the race they are racist against. Personally, for the longest time I was extremely nervous with people of arabic descent, and this was before even the 9/11 attacks. Eventually, I ended up having a few mutual friends with a few people of arabic descent and I eventually became friends with them.

Racism is nothing more than ignorance and a lot of the time a little bit of knowledge is all it takes to erase the racism.

Edited, Oct 25th 2011 11:52am by Bigdaddyjug

Yeah I suppose so.

It's different, it's weird. That's all I know. You run into things that frustrate you to no end that'll you never really understand. Confusions that everyone has long ago given up trying to explain and work through, etc. You can learn the language, try to act the role, and there's still a frustratingly large wall of ignorance to deal with. Not that it doesn't go both ways or anything either. It can be just plain exhausting to deal with.

In the end, I can see why people tend to prefer others of their own race. I'm probably being too harsh, but that preference is still veiled racism in my mind. *shrugs*

Trying to apply a real world ideology to this game is a stretch. In WoW races are used to distinguish between different sovereign nations and to allow character customization.

Its like if I say I hate all Canadians. It has nothing to do with the fact they are mostly Caucasian, mostly European descent. I am Caucasian. I am of mostly European descent. I hate Canadians because they control the world's maple syrup supply and I want it. I also hate Canadians because they routinely beat my country's teams in hockey.

At this juncture I would like to point out that I don't truly hate Canadians.


Garrosh is admittedly racist. Even against members of his own alliance. However, the war between the two empires is based on a long series of extremely complicated events that have nothing to do with race. Although in-game it may seem so since certain races are restricted to certain sides, in lore outside the game the lines aren't so clear.

Another example, its like saying the Road Runner hates Wiley Coyote because Wiley Coyote is a coyote. No, Road Runner hates Wiley because he's trying to blow him up and eat him.

To slap the label "racism" onto the in-game conflict seems to be diluting a very real and tragic problem.

This.

From my perspective, I'm not at war with (the social and genetic group) Orcs, I'm at war with (the political organization) Orcs. It's just that, in simplifying it for the game context, the two groups are pretty much comprised of the same people.

And as for the Second Horde not being the same as the First Horde - the Third Reich wasn't the same as the German Empire, which wasn't the same as the Kingdom of Prussia, but in 1914 after the events of 1870, and in 1939 after the events of 1914, can you blame a French citizen for a certain dislike of an entire population?

Confucius say: War not determine who is right, war determine who is left.

Yeah, but this is after he ordered the genocide of Gilneas. So I'm not inclined to actually praise him for drawing the line at necromancy.