OMFG Pandaren? I'm quitting! And here's why...Follow

The DLC comic of course. I'm pretty sure it's been linked in the BDT before.

Prove it.

Or maybe you were thinking of Redneck Trees?

That site is confusing. It keeps talking about something called 'dice'.

All you've done is provide a narrative regarding how the racism formed. It doesn't justify it at all (and I doubt racism can be justified in any context where both groups are both good and evil).

And if the entire conflict is going to boil down to side A being pissed about that thing side B did all those years ago, I'm just not interested in supporting either.

This shows why the conflict escalated, yeah. It's no great surprise that mutual racism and war fueled a huge increase in racism on both sides.

Edited, Oct 24th 2011 7:14pm by idiggory

I... really don't understand. Varian hates "them" because of what "they" did to his homeland...

And this refers to all orcs...

Yeeeeeeah, that's racism. It's no different than how my Great Uncle had issues with the Japanese after WWII. It was still racism, even though he felt justified in it. It's not like he [Garrosh] hated a political entity, because the New Horde wasn't the same construct as the old Horde (which still existed, and was an enemy of the new Horde). And Thrall, who he hated so badly, had never even been a member of the old Horde, but had rather spent his life trying to foster peace.

Just because he feels justified, doesn't mean it's not racism.

And Garrosh is TOTALLY doing this for race reasons. He thinks that the NEs are inferior to Orcs and, therefore, don't have any right to the land. The only race besides Orcs he respects are the Tauren.

You can't even justify Garrosh's actions in terms of him wanting revenge. The Alliance have never done anything to cause him pain (on the contrary, it's because of Jaina that his own father was saved from his demonic taint). He thinks that the Alliance races are inferior and, as such, they deserve to die. And he actually ordered Sylvanas to purge every human (which includes civilians and children) from Gilneas, despite the fact that they had NEVER been involved with the conflict on either side and posed no threat at all to him.

That's not conquering, it's genocide. I haven't seen anything to support the theory that Garrosh would accept a surrender.

Edited, Oct 24th 2011 9:28pm by idiggory

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."


Because I felt like dropping a Rush quote.

My politics when it comes to games are radically different from what they are in the real world. I just need more motivation than "Kill them, because they have green skin!"

Land, limited resources, etc. are all well and good. They certainly help explain the escalation in violence. But it doesn't really give the whole picture (or even the important part of it). It's not like Azeroth is barren--those resources are so necessary because the factions are at war. If they weren't, the need for raw materials would be a small fraction of what it is currently.

And, realistically, all the racial leaders have way more important things on their mind than Varian's and Garrosh's war. Malfurion and Tyrande are dealing with the actual fate of the world (and the NE lands are perhaps one of the most heavily taxed by the recent years). The Council of Three Hammers is still in a power vacuum, and Ironforge has enough internal race issues to deal with. Gnomes have never been interested in war, and now they are fighting on the Gnomer front.

Only the Worgen have any real reason to fight right now, because Garrosh has actually occupied their homeland (which they obviously want back) and murdered their friends, family and children.

On the Horde side? Tauren only have any real issue with the Dwarves, and it's largely based around what right the Dwarves have to excavate their old cities. It's probably something diplomacy could solve if they hadn't been forced into war anyway. Plus, they have enough to deal with where the Grim Totems and leadership are concerned. Trolls have no immediate problems with the Alliance, and are concerned with setting up a new nation. Goblins are also just building a new state, without any particular disdain for other races (though earning some from NEs for how they treat Azshara's wildlife, since it's one of their ancestral homes). But they were ordered to do that by Garrosh, so it's not like they can be blamed for it. Forsaken are dealing with their declining population. Plus, they are equal-oportunity haters.

Realistically, the only reason this war is being waged is because of the pushes of Varian and Garrosh. EVERY other racial group would benefit hugely from the war's end. And only the Orcs/humans have anything they could realistically hope to gain from the conflict.

Can I just raise a point of order.

We're all - quite rightly IMO - conditioned to react to the word "racism" because it is a bad thing. I'm not going to argue about that. The point about the disconnect between games and reality has already been made.

However unless some loremaster wants to tell me different we are not dealing with racism in WoW but with something else entirely - Speciesism?

Races are gene-pool variants of the same species able to freely interbreed.

I know I've seen some references to NE being warped out of proto-trolls by the Well. And Lantresor in Nagrand claims to be a hybrid orc/draenor. And there's a woman in Sholazar who seems to be married to a gnome

But these aberrations don't really make up for the fact that orcs evolved somewhere completely different from humanity. Dwarfs are apparently a mutation from the Titan-created Earthen. Trolls pre-date everybody etc etc.

Now they are all people but not strictly speaking "races" therefore their hatred for each other is not racism - an emotive word we do not wish to be associated with - but something else. The use of the word "race" to describe the different types in WoW obviously lends itself to the derivation but I don't think it is helpful.

Orcs - to pick an example - sees no difference between wiping out NE in Ashenvale and Quillboards in the Barrens. Both are inferior irrelevancies occupying prime land.

I completely agree.

I'm just saying that "Race" hate in WoW is not the same as "Racism" IRL.

Its a bit moot since I don't actually hate anybody - or maybe I hate everybody equally. I'm never really sure.

I don't hate gnomes, I just don't like little people.

Yeah, you heard me. I said 'little people'.

I just can't seem to figure it out. Sylvanas has become just as much of a threat to the Horde as to the Alliance. Especially Garrosh has quite a bit of a problem on his left flank now. He opposed the use of the plague, but gave in when he realized that he couldn't exactly stand up against Sylvanas anymore.

So there is trouble ahead, but unless Varian sees an opportunity to finish of an enemy weakened by internal quarrels and power plays, I don't quite understand why he wouldn't just mind his own business.