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- The Blizzcon Thread: Let there be Pandas
The Blizzcon Thread: Let there be PandasFollow
Ugh, that's going to suck when I do that dungeon on my shaman. No point in Fire Shock, Fire Nova and Lava Burst? Lame.
Mazra wrote:
There are still some metal constructs in BRD that are immune to fire damage, or at least resist 90% of it. Apparently because they're red hot or something.
Upside, though, is that frost spells do quadruple damage.
Upside, though, is that frost spells do quadruple damage.
Y'know. Even while at Blizzcon I was "meh" about the announcements. Aside from seeing a massive simplification of the talent system (not that it was all that complex before anyway), everything else was more "yeah, ok, whatever..." more so than any other year I've been.
Playing the panda monk was fine. I'll probably casually level a monk (not a panda) but it didn't really make me giddy or anything like goblins did =)
I tend to agree that the game is being made more simple. Not sure if it's "good" or "bad". It's just different. What I do know is that I'm seeing a less challenging game with every major patch, and I don't necessarily find it as fun as I used to. Still entertaining in some ways but not in the same way or to the same time-sucking extent that I used to. That could be due to burnout (been playing since vanilla, etc) or it could be that I am no longer the target market that they are trying to appeal to.
It is still too early to dissect each detail. And who knows, maybe I'll finally learn wtf this pokemon thing is all about and love it (ha!). But right now my gaming excitement is about titles which Blizzard isn't part of.
Playing the panda monk was fine. I'll probably casually level a monk (not a panda) but it didn't really make me giddy or anything like goblins did =)
I tend to agree that the game is being made more simple. Not sure if it's "good" or "bad". It's just different. What I do know is that I'm seeing a less challenging game with every major patch, and I don't necessarily find it as fun as I used to. Still entertaining in some ways but not in the same way or to the same time-sucking extent that I used to. That could be due to burnout (been playing since vanilla, etc) or it could be that I am no longer the target market that they are trying to appeal to.
It is still too early to dissect each detail. And who knows, maybe I'll finally learn wtf this pokemon thing is all about and love it (ha!). But right now my gaming excitement is about titles which Blizzard isn't part of.
I was catching up on this thread and I have to say Cobra101 is a Jedi and I wish to subscribe to his newsletter.
Also to reply to Therions last post, one topic I tend to run with is that WoW on release was enjoyable because it offered an experience that was fairly easy to pick up and play. You could log on for a short time and feel like you had achieved something, in comparison to its competition at the time which was heavy on the stick and short on the carrot.
The magic of WoW was that while easy to pick up and play it was by no means puddle deep. The depth of game play and what you could do was amazing and it wasn't limited to outgearing content, but actual skill allowing you to do things that the plebes in general couldn't imagine. As we march along towards simplification, homogenization and change for the sake of change we are creating a puddle deep game that lacks the depth that made WOW what it is today.
Also to reply to Therions last post, one topic I tend to run with is that WoW on release was enjoyable because it offered an experience that was fairly easy to pick up and play. You could log on for a short time and feel like you had achieved something, in comparison to its competition at the time which was heavy on the stick and short on the carrot.
The magic of WoW was that while easy to pick up and play it was by no means puddle deep. The depth of game play and what you could do was amazing and it wasn't limited to outgearing content, but actual skill allowing you to do things that the plebes in general couldn't imagine. As we march along towards simplification, homogenization and change for the sake of change we are creating a puddle deep game that lacks the depth that made WOW what it is today.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Quote:
but actual skill allowing you to do things that the plebes in general couldn't imagine.
That sums up the reason you need to hang up your MMO boots. Those days have passed you by.
I also played when WOW was new, expansions didn't exist, and new content was delivered as a patch. Without any change to the game at all, the experience would still have changed. Addons have been created to cue players to optimized rotations and track cool downs. Sites like EJ have crunched all the numbers to the point that "choices" in the game are illusory. One reason for Transmogrification is that optimized gear means everyone wears the same uniform. The same holds true for instances and raids; by the time they go live, the top guilds have already developed and rehearsed all the strategies, leaving everyone else to follow them and learn the latest dance.
The "depth" you say is missing was little more than the newness of the game, before it had been min/maxed within an inch of its life. To return to one of my own comparisons, remember that woman that you met and you had the most amazing weekend with? Yep, six years later, it is going to be harder for her to amaze you. You may even notice that she has started to show some wrinkles around the eyes and that habits you hadn't really noticed before are starting to become irksome. Do you really expect a video game to be able to do better? The difference is that Blizz doesn't want half your stuff if you leave and won't castrate you with a spork for dabbling in other MMOs. Remember the good times and move on, or stay and have fun with what is there.
bodhisattva wrote:
The depth of game play and what you could do was amazing and it wasn't limited to outgearing content, but actual skill allowing you to do things that the plebes in general couldn't imagine.
That's BS. The game has ALWAYS put gear over skill. In fact, the whole thing centers around gearing up to outgear whatever you're doing at the time, and it has been like that from the very beginning.
The very first time skill will actually matter more than gear will be the normalized dungeons they're planning for the expansion, and with a little bit of luck, the whole idea will spread to PvP as well.
But even then you'll have comps that have it easier than others, and you'll come to find out that things havent even been homogenized enough for this kind of thing.
The game didn't change at all at the core, so this whole thing of whining about how awesome vanilla was compared to how things are now is getting pretty old. I mean you can wear your pink glasses while looking back, but I too thought that playing Summer Games on my Atari 2600 was the greatest thing ever when all it really was was jerking that damn joystick back and forth.
WoW was HUGE when it came out, but it hasn't really changed all that much - unlike our perception and development of the skills required to more or less succeed in it. The problem isn't the game. It's YOU!
Rhodekylle wrote:
The difference is that Blizz doesn't want half your stuff if you leave and won't castrate you with a spork for dabbling in other MMOs.
Well, thanks for almost making me choke on my drink....
Princess ShadorVIII wrote:
[quote=Wonder Gem PigtailsOfDoom]
Huh. When I clicked on yours the first time, it took me to the post that was showing the skinny, huge-breasted panda in a tank top and bikini bottom. Musta been a bug.
Huh. When I clicked on yours the first time, it took me to the post that was showing the skinny, huge-breasted panda in a tank top and bikini bottom. Musta been a bug.
You had me at huge breasted.
Quote:
WoW was HUGE when it came out, but it hasn't really changed all that much - unlike our perception and development of the skills required to more or less succeed in it. The problem isn't the game. It's YOU!
LOL.....WoW has changed a ton since it came out, some good some bad. It's pretty much a completely different game since I started playing.
Anyway, the skill versus gear thing is true now, but it wasn't always that way.
Example: I'd been playing since a few months before BC was released and it took me forever to finally get up the nerve to attempt a raid. I spent the whole time learning my hunter and getting used to 5man situations; Hell it took me a good year just to get the nerve to do a 5man cos I simply didn't want to fail and be known as a huntard on my server. No LFD, so you once had to worry about your reputation on your realm (but WoW hasn't changed much right?). My first raid was finally Mag, in half green gear and half 5man blues. No clue about DPS meters, omen or any of that crap. I pulled enough DPS and had the skill to get invited to my first real raid which was Kara, the highest raid content at that time. It wasn't my gear that got me in the raid, it was my skill. Now-a-days, there's no way in Hell something like that would happen because the game has become more gearcentric than it was in the past.
Sure, I was probably not the highest DPS, but I did good enough cos no one complained. I didn't feel as if I was carried. Now-a-days, people complain in Sholomance if you cannot pull 200+ dps, blah, blah. Oh crap, no BOA's, no gear, nevermind his skill, he must suck. So yea, I agree, gear has become the main focus point, but it wasn't always like that if you actually did have skill.
Kanngarnix wrote:
The game didn't change at all at the core, so this whole thing of whining about how awesome vanilla was compared to how things are now is getting pretty old. I mean you can wear your pink glasses while looking back, but I too thought that playing Summer Games on my Atari 2600 was the greatest thing ever when all it really was was jerking that damn joystick back and forth.
I think all that jerking your joystick has made you blind to the changes.
Its not nostalgia. There was no particular benefit in running an entire zone to get from the GY to where you died or having a tiny fraction of the FPs we have now. But when 60 was the cap and there was still 40-man raid content it did take quite a bit more discipline and, yes, skill.
All MMOs have the option with content to tackle it when its hard or to wait till you out-gear it and faceroll. I had an enormous amount of fun in those early days doing stuff that I was nowhere near geared for. I remember doing SM with two of us and we kept saying "We're not going to manage this but what can we lose" So we kept at it and used every trick we could muster and amazed ourselves. That was a really great time.
Even in the days of Kara and Naxx the guild I ran with (I'm still in it but the rest of the guild has left
) had trouble with the content and I managed to top dps as a BM hunter when SV was king. Its not that I was mega skilled its just there is a spectrum and I was further along it than some of the others. The point is that better geared people do not necessarily perform better. That truth necessitates the existence of skill. I'm sure there is still content that needs that sort of skill - just not where I'm likely to see it
Wherever I go - there I am.
Seculartwo wrote:
Example: I'd been playing since a few months before BC was released and it took me forever to finally get up the nerve to attempt a raid. I spent the whole time learning my hunter and getting used to 5man situations; Hell it took me a good year just to get the nerve to do a 5man cos I simply didn't want to fail and be known as a huntard on my server. No LFD, so you once had to worry about your reputation on your realm (but WoW hasn't changed much right?). My first raid was finally Mag, in half green gear and half 5man blues. No clue about DPS meters, omen or any of that crap. I pulled enough DPS and had the skill to get invited to my first real raid which was Kara, the highest raid content at that time. It wasn't my gear that got me in the raid, it was my skill. Now-a-days, there's no way in Hell something like that would happen because the game has become more gearcentric than it was in the past.
Well, for one thing, the "in half greens, half blues" argument isn't valid for early TBC, simply because the combat stats were still so entirely messed up that some greens were actually considered BiS before raids. I remember green quest boots on my druid, along with some other strange things.
Skill was secondary in TBC. More important was being of the right class. Unless you were hunter, mage, or rogue, you simply wouldn't get into a dungeon group as dps because of the obsession with CC. Even more so towards the end, when heroic Magister's Terrace or Sunwell were the places to go to. Especially Sunwell became infamous for class stacking.
Even Kara as an entry level raid was class dependant. No killing Moroes unless you had plenty of CC. No killing Nightbane if all you had was a druid tank and your priest happened to be of the wrong race and lacking Fear Ward (which was then given to all sometime later). That it was possible towards the end wasn't a matter of improved skills, but simply being overgeared thanks to the badge vendor and running 25s on the side.
Oh yeah, I was so damn awesome and skilled. I managed to weave in Steady Shots in between Autos while running the cookie cutter 41/20 BM build. I was an amazing healer, because I found out how to spam FoL or Chain Heal, and even managed to keep Lifebloom ticking on 3+ people.
Measured at today's standards, the game was utterly dumb and stupid. It was challenging at the time, but the skills required to play this type of game simply improved over the years. It's still the same damn thing since vanilla, though.
They cut a lot of the BS and removed fillers, and in turn added stuff like dailies, arena, and battlegrounds amongst other things. Other than that?
Get to max level. Gear up. Go raid and push buttons in the right order. Get more gear. Go raid more. Get bored. Roll an alt. Repeat.
If anything, the game has slightly increased in depth, just not nearly as fast and as much to keep up with those playing it.
Kanngarnix wrote:
bodhisattva wrote:
The depth of game play and what you could do was amazing and it wasn't limited to outgearing content, but actual skill allowing you to do things that the plebes in general couldn't imagine.
That's BS. The game has ALWAYS put gear over skill.
I have a world 48 (US 15th) "Tribute to Dedicated Insanity" achievement which begs to differ.
I also could point at particular TBC content, which I think it would be reasonable to state that even after you reached the next tier most guilds couldn't down. I would also think it was fair to say that content like Sunwell Plateau, while obviously having a built in gear check, were definitely skill checks. Even in WotLK there were fights that were definite skill checks. Ulduar had a number pre-nerf, Arthas Hardmode RS 25 HM etc.
But that is almost straying off my original point. When it came to crazy PvP pwnage, world pvp, kiting world bosses into a major city, timed runs, tanks being able deal with complex positioning and movement requirements or handling aoe packs without the aoe tools that are built in now, handling debuffs without a homogenized base who all have the same cleanse but instead certain classes for curses, disease or magic debuffs etc.
Some of the change, as mentioned I love. The change for more complex spell rotation in WotLK & Cata, allowing hybrids to be competitive (/cough ret paladin in TBC). Some I definitely take issue with, I am a firm believer that the homogenization of healers negatively impacted the game. Before each healer had strengths and weaknesses, however as a whole you complimented each other and worked as a team to overcome. That has been removed to a large degree mainly due to 10 man raiding and the challenges that healing being balanced around 25 man raids in prior expansion brought about.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Cobra101 wrote:
Its not nostalgia. There was no particular benefit in running an entire zone to get from the GY to where you died or having a tiny fraction of the FPs we have now. But when 60 was the cap and there was still 40-man raid content it did take quite a bit more discipline and, yes, skill.
All MMOs have the option with content to tackle it when its hard or to wait till you out-gear it and faceroll. I had an enormous amount of fun in those early days doing stuff that I was nowhere near geared for. I remember doing SM with two of us and we kept saying "We're not going to manage this but what can we lose" So we kept at it and used every trick we could muster and amazed ourselves. That was a really great time.
Even in the days of Kara and Naxx the guild I ran with (I'm still in it but the rest of the guild has left
) had trouble with the content and I managed to top dps as a BM hunter when SV was king. Its not that I was mega skilled its just there is a spectrum and I was further along it than some of the others. The point is that better geared people do not necessarily perform better. That truth necessitates the existence of skill. None of that's changed. The only skill required by 40-man raids that isn't today was wrangling 40 people to not be idiots. We can still do tricky things at level, my brother and I recently did the Amphitheater of Anguish and Vrykul arena/elites at level (78 pally and 76 rogue for the first, 78 pally and 79 rogue for the second) using, yes, every trick we could muster. When I run Firelands I top meters with my feral because I'm further along that spectrum you mentioned than my guildies.
If something has changed it's your interest in doing so. You *can* 2-3-man instances but with dungeon finder why bother. With the quality of theorycrafters we've developed as we turned this game inside-out the threshold of competency has risen until some people require everyone to be doing their ideal max. That doesn't mean it takes less skill to do so, but rather that we've renormalized perception of that skill.
I'd like to clarify something: Personally, I remember Brutallus fondly. I actually enjoyed being pushed that hard to beat the most unforgiving timer in the game. The fact that if I missed a cooldown or didn't time my bleeds correctly we would wipe was fun, for me. I enjoyed farming for a few hours in order to get a 5 dps better enchant (yes, really ~5 dps). There are other examples but you get the point.
That is what I enjoy about gaming in general - the challenge to complete something exceedingly difficult. Not everyone enjoys this aspect gaming. (this is the vital point we all need to remember)
Blizzard has shown quite clearly that they do not want to exclude content based on that type of difficulty. Which is great for their target market but not necessarily for players like myself. It's not "good" or "bad" or "right" or "wrong". It is their game. There were things about vanilla that I loathed (40 mans, Stranglethorn on my pvp server) and things that I loved (scholo as a raid, extended class quests). I'm sure we all could write lists of love/hate for each patch and expansion.
Which leads me to my point: Telling other people why they should like or dislike something is a waste of time. Arguing why pandas or gear badges are "awesome" or "crap" in an absolute sort of way is kinda silly. All we need to ask is are we being entertained enough to pay our subscription?
And now I've typed far too much, sorry for the long post. Cheers all!
That is what I enjoy about gaming in general - the challenge to complete something exceedingly difficult. Not everyone enjoys this aspect gaming. (this is the vital point we all need to remember)
Blizzard has shown quite clearly that they do not want to exclude content based on that type of difficulty. Which is great for their target market but not necessarily for players like myself. It's not "good" or "bad" or "right" or "wrong". It is their game. There were things about vanilla that I loathed (40 mans, Stranglethorn on my pvp server) and things that I loved (scholo as a raid, extended class quests). I'm sure we all could write lists of love/hate for each patch and expansion.
Which leads me to my point: Telling other people why they should like or dislike something is a waste of time. Arguing why pandas or gear badges are "awesome" or "crap" in an absolute sort of way is kinda silly. All we need to ask is are we being entertained enough to pay our subscription?
And now I've typed far too much, sorry for the long post. Cheers all!
TherionSaysWhat wrote:
And now I've typed far too much, sorry for the long post. Cheers all!
But it was well said, so no worries!
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
I still figure I will come back for the expansion, play for a month or two and then get bored and play something else. That seems to be my current MMO pattern. I just don't have the dedication keep playing endgames once I get bored of them. That suits me ok though, since now I am much more up to date on single player titles than I was when I was playing WoW heavily.
Pandas look kinda fun to me. WoW has always been a blend of comic relief and death metal skulls.
Pandas look kinda fun to me. WoW has always been a blend of comic relief and death metal skulls.
Hell, Arthas hardmode is STILL a skill check. I've got the achievement on my priest (for 10 man) after doing it in a guild group. It was definitely fun, but also challenging even at 85. My mage about a month ago, was in a group for it (pug from trade with a couple guildies in there with me) and we spent close to 2 hours working on him and never got him down.
Defile dancing is leet skillz!
Apparently lol. I don't even really remember what the issue was, but I do remember that we never got past phase 2. And people did have issues stacking properly for defile.
When I server xferred to get carried to LK HM 25 man the most stressful fight ended up being Valithria.
I got brought in for my first raid as a trial member, the last paladin had failed hard and got scrubbed out while I was there. So I am doing alright but at that point most of the HM fights were on lock down and I had done multiple times. We get to Valithiria HM and they are using 2 paladins to heal in dream phase. I believe they had 2 healers outside and that was it.
Healing with 2 paladins is a somewhat tight affair and the other paladin somehow managed to lose her stacks which was a guaranteed wipe. The raid leader was raging, I mean worst of the worst you can imagine for a wipe on Valithria. The thing is that I kept going. Now it is a running joke on how much I disliked Valithiria in my old guild so I often let the other healers carry me, but since I was there to impress I was going balls out. While we are in wipe with like 2% left and I go into a portal one final time. Everyone dies and is running back. I come out of the phase, last man standing I pop my bubble, LOH+CD's and I manage to clear that last couple percent and win the fight. At which point I interrupt the tantrum the RL is having on vent and say ********** YES".
I was promptly removed from raid, yelled at and told I was getting chewed out later. Of course when they ran back and realized that the boss was down and what happened I got a sidewise apology after the fact. Now no one on my server believes me because of how I used to slack on Val, which is a pisser.
I got brought in for my first raid as a trial member, the last paladin had failed hard and got scrubbed out while I was there. So I am doing alright but at that point most of the HM fights were on lock down and I had done multiple times. We get to Valithiria HM and they are using 2 paladins to heal in dream phase. I believe they had 2 healers outside and that was it.
Healing with 2 paladins is a somewhat tight affair and the other paladin somehow managed to lose her stacks which was a guaranteed wipe. The raid leader was raging, I mean worst of the worst you can imagine for a wipe on Valithria. The thing is that I kept going. Now it is a running joke on how much I disliked Valithiria in my old guild so I often let the other healers carry me, but since I was there to impress I was going balls out. While we are in wipe with like 2% left and I go into a portal one final time. Everyone dies and is running back. I come out of the phase, last man standing I pop my bubble, LOH+CD's and I manage to clear that last couple percent and win the fight. At which point I interrupt the tantrum the RL is having on vent and say ********** YES".
I was promptly removed from raid, yelled at and told I was getting chewed out later. Of course when they ran back and realized that the boss was down and what happened I got a sidewise apology after the fact. Now no one on my server believes me because of how I used to slack on Val, which is a pisser.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Why did they get mad at you when you were still the last one standing? 
Did they just assume the "wipe" was your fault since their healer couldn't possibly have made the mistake?
Did they just assume the "wipe" was your fault since their healer couldn't possibly have made the mistake?It's been ages since I fought Arthas, but I believe his problem 10-man was the same as Ragnaros's hammer transitions in 10-man; if one person screws up we're in for a world of hurt. At that point depending on the guild you're faced with the question of whether to keep raiding with people you like who make the experience fun, or go find some people who can find their &^*&^ing stun button or avoid disengaging into lava.
Of course, this week's raid is cancelled because one couple has family coming in, another is expecting a kid, someone else needs to pull an extra shift to afford a medical bill... it's fun being in a small group of "old fogies", who get to juggle the game around real life while reminiscing about when we'd stay up all night in college.
Of course, this week's raid is cancelled because one couple has family coming in, another is expecting a kid, someone else needs to pull an extra shift to afford a medical bill... it's fun being in a small group of "old fogies", who get to juggle the game around real life while reminiscing about when we'd stay up all night in college.
Bodhi wrote:
The raid leader was raging, I mean worst of the worst you can imagine for a wipe on Valithria.
They were more pissed at you for your FAILURE TO OBEY! The wipe call than happy you pulled it out. Kind of reminds me of last week I got to end game in AoC after mostly just tooling around for a a month and the raid leader was repeating the same thing about how they would kick anyone from guild who did something they did not want. Over and Over, berating adults, "DO YOU UNDERSTAND! YOU WILL BE KICKED FROM GUILD BLAH BLAH BLAH x 25." every boss. Was an issue that had nothing to do with me personally but I had to listen to it anyway, just to raid.
Just cancelled my sub today on that game again. I don't need daily doses of pent up nerd rage and ALMIGHTY LEADER roll play in my relaxation time.
I wonder sometimes if there is some magic guild out there in some game somewhere where intelligent, socially well adjusted people raid in a relaxed atmosphere. But still manage to raid well. Pipedream I know.
Shojindo, Eternal Mercenary wrote:
[quote=Bodhi]
I wonder sometimes if there is some magic guild out there in some game somewhere where intelligent, socially well adjusted people raid in a relaxed atmosphere. But still manage to raid well. Pipedream I know.
I wonder sometimes if there is some magic guild out there in some game somewhere where intelligent, socially well adjusted people raid in a relaxed atmosphere. But still manage to raid well. Pipedream I know.
They exist, just depends on your definition of well. I've had the opportunity in the last week to get in on a couple alt raids with my guild (my play times never align with guild raid times), and we as a guild are always relaxed, and seem to do fairly well. No heroic modes done that I'm aware of, but steady progression.
TherionSaysWhat wrote:
Blizzard has shown quite clearly that they do not want to exclude content based on that type of difficulty. Which is great for their target market but not necessarily for players like myself.
I think this is part of why I'm not thrilled about the expansion. I can appreciate Blizzard needing a business model that caters to players of all types, but I think that the populist mindset has gone out of control. The talent trees have been dumbed down dramatically instead of made more interesting. The unique benefits of each class have been demolished to make them the same. CC techniques are abandoned in favor of massively outgearing content. Where obtaining epic pieces required raiding and indicated meeting a challenge, now you can grind your heart out for them. And to do what? Raid. LOLWUT? Don't get me wrong - I'm as casual as they get, and you would think that the raid finder coming in 4.3 would appeal to me. But all I see if more "must have gear and know fight and have achieve or boot" coming down the pipe.
Broadening the player base to cater to those who seek instant gratification has introduced players of the worst caliber. When playing vanilla and TBC, rarely did I come across people who wouldn't take the time to explain fights or were willing to dedicate an hour to an instance run. Yesterday, my ZA PUG group couldn't be bothered to explain the simple tactics of each boss to someone new to the troll heroics (but still properly geared and using a good rotation), and them EMOPLODED when we wiped.
Perhaps it's not the game I'm tired of. It's the players.
TherionSaysWhat wrote:
I'm sure we all could write lists of love/hate for each patch and expansion.
My concerns are that the "love" list is shrinking and the "hate" list is growing. Fundamentally, it's about the lore for me. And I don't see any lore in MoP worth exploring. WotLK had some great lore, but late in the expansion player focus shifted.
Lich King: "I will devour your soul and Azeroth will pay-"
Player X: "Fine, fine, can I just have my frosties please?"
How many times did we see Deathwing in Cata? I know I got fried once while I was AFK, and I did the Badlands tearjerker quest. But that was it. The rest of the expac was grinding rep, gearing up, and just turning the crank until Blizzard decided to drop Raggie and Deathwing. Yawn.
I still hold out hope for something awesome in MoP. I just haven't seen it yet.
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