LOLz - Threat is haaaarrddd qq (Blue Post)Follow

/sigh

What I liked about it:

-It'll make it easier to start gearing a tank by actually tanking; instead of running as DPS, and rolling on tank gear.

-The idea that they want to have a lot for tanks to do. So much so that watching threat is a hindrance, and they thought it was best removed from the game.

What I didn't like:

-This underlying current that seemed (to me at least) that a large part of the problem has to do with 'uber deeps' not throttling back in random groups.

-Leveling a tank will be very mindless, until you get to the point you'll actually have to move adds around and such.

-It seems like a gimmick to get more people to tank and bring down queue times.

In before:

-DPS meters continue to kill the game!

-Threat is hard! QQ!

-L2 tank nub

Edited, Aug 16th 2011 1:16pm by someproteinguy

Playing the game over watching a threat meter?

Being able to actually tank dungeons at 85 as an entry level geared tank?

Dynamic, meaningful stats and abilities besides "hit-this-button-for-threat?"

Sign me up!

Seems like an all around good move to me and much more robust and "colorful" way to play a tank class to me.

Well the thought being that as the expansion progresses a newly minted herioc tank with an ilvl of 330ish (partly from PvP gear likely) will have an increasingly difficult time holding threat over a DPS in the latest tier gear. It's not a huge problem now, but if we get 2 more tiers out of this expansion it'll likely be an issue.

Fully ICC-geared DPS looking for a fast clear versus newly minted tank in 187/200 blues, deja vu...

Ah, I see what you mean re:threat.

I suppose getting decent survival gear isn't a problem anyway with the free token system now.


Like Stamina and Dodge? ZOMG hold me back... IMA GONNA PARRY!!!!!!!! =)

Hey, do you guys remember when games were challenging?



(or am I dating myself? =)

Sweet, I can get back into WoW and get epics by just smashing my face on my keyboard without learning anything!

So does this just mean threat will be like it was before they made it hard ? Up until the tail end of Wrath when they changed the formula for it you could still lose threat, it was just rare that someone would be able to rip it off of you.

Seriously. A lot of good ideas here Maz! GG!

I feel like every update I see makes me want to renew my subscription less.

Seriously, why would you want to play a tank anymore? It isn't like you have a survivability rotation you could use, that needed to be balanced with a dps rotation before. Nope, now it's just doing whatever the hell you want until your defensive cds come back up...

If they were implementing a survivability rotation (aka, abilities that exist to increase your survivability instead of damage a mob, but don't have CDs like current defensive abilities do, and are also dynamic so it's not just pressing the "block" key over and over), I could get into this. But they clearly aren't. Because that would be something tanks needed to watch, which seems to be a problem for some reason.

Example of what I mean:

Right now, most classes function in a generally similar way. You'll have a high damage ability with some sort of short CD, a low-damage ability that provides some kind of necessary buff, a medium damage ability that can be buffed by some specific mechanic, and a medium-low damage ability that you use to fill in the holes. This is a generalization of course, but it's simply for the purpose of example.

Take Unholy DK. Your DC is nice damage, but nothing special. Its main purpose is to power up your ghoul. You tend to hold off on using it (unless that means wasted RP) until you'd benefit from the UF proc. Scourge Strike is good damage unbuffed, but substantially better otherwise. Festering Strike is pretty much what you use when you have no other options, or would waste resources by not using it (because it enables you to add another SS to your rotation).

Why can't tanks have something similar? For example, give me an attack that will lower the amount of damage a boss deals (low-defense ability that buffs one later). Let me later absorb the charges of that ability off the boss to create a shield (high-defense ability dependent on those charges). A medium-value, short-term dodge bonus that you can hit on a short-ish cooldown. And finally a low-bonus parry buff that will serve as your filler ability (possibly with something to make it slighty more interesting like a low health absorb).

As much as I've been complaining about the over simplification of the game, I'm not ready to dismiss this as a "bad idea". I decided to read the whole thing with an open mind and GC had some great points.

If you're telling me threat isn't an issue unless raid geared players are in regular heroics then what is the issue of removing it? Lets face it, trying to gear up a guildie who is a new tank is a pain. Everyone is ripping aggro off him no matter how hard he tries. Picking up hit and expertise for threat IS boring for a tank. Why am I worrying about DPS? If I wanted to DPS I'd be playing a DPS. Instead of making hit and expertise about generating enough threat they want tanks to be concerned about abilities that make them survivable.

With my very brief stint in Rift this echos a lot of the fun ideas I saw with their tanking classes. A lot of the tank skills were used not because of how much damage said attack would do, but because by using that attack it'd either apply a survivability buff to the tank or a survivability debuff to the enemy.

I don't think the issue here is that they are nerfing it because its "too hard". They are changing it to be more interesting from its current model from threat management, to more hands on survivability. Instead of using skills to generate threat, you'll be using skills to keep yourself alive. That's why I play a tank. I like the survival game. I hate the threat game (and honestly after a certain point the threat game disappears with all but the most geared DPS).

Not to say I'm head over heels excited about this change, but I think an open mind is needed. This may very well be a positive change in the long run once all the changes have been implemented.

Edited, Aug 16th 2011 7:10pm by ekaterinodar

Honestly, my suggestion would be to blizzard give additional threat for tanks in the LFD. Maybe in that Luck of the draw buff. My dps gets more damage on that buff when I pug it, why not give more threat for the tank?

Nowadays, my raid group actually have to care about threat on Heroic Rhyolith. We have to call for threat dumpers, the tank have to go to the fight with pretty much dps gear, I have to watch threat when Im AoEing them (specially in an specific time in that fight where there are still some fragments up that need to die and new ones appear and we cant hold the dps)...I mean, we actually have to coordinate stuff because of threat in that fight.

With that change, I'll just pop everything and those adds will stop being an issue altogether. Where is the fun in that?

And...hey, Omen, goodbye! You've been a good friend all these years.

I remember when everyone said "OMG Battletoads is SO hard!"

.... yet I managed to beat it.

But then, it was the same day I beat TMNT2: The Arcade Game.... without using the cheat code.

I was on fire that day.

Heck, I had >5 lives at the end of Battletoads... I was doing levels and not getting killed and I was like "OMG, what's with me today!?".

Then I got to the Terra Tubes and I didn't lose more than 2 lives and I'm like "omg omg omg omg... I can't believe this is happening... I'm gonna lose em all at the Tower..." and then I jump up into the Queen's chamber and I'm like "... I'm gonna die here, aren't I?" then I kill her and I'm like ".... w ... t.... f... did I Just... beat this game!?"

So, sometimes Nintendo Hard games can give one fond memories... but yes, most of the time, they end in frustration.

Edit: So uh, I was kinda in a hyper mood just now thinking about how awesome that day was, that I forgot to actually reply to the actual subject in the OP:

I can see where Ghostcrawler is coming from, to be honest. Tanks have enough to worry about, when it comes to avoiding the fire, interrupts, and trying to put out good DPS to help the mob die faster. There's also when to use Inq, WoG, and Shield, and a bunch of Other things on my mind. I hate having to also worry about some over-zealous DPS ontop of all of this other stuff going on.

He also mentioned Throttling. Nobody likes to do less DPS just because a tank is lower-geared than them, and nobody likes there to be a DPS ceiling where too much DPS = too much threat.

And then, there's how Vengeance currently works, I've heard lots of complaints (and experienced them myself) that it takes too long for a tank's Vengeance to catch up with the DPS threat on boss fights. I hate seeing Orange aggro around my portrait for the first 10-15 seconds, knowing that if the boss looks towards another one of the melees, that's going to cost the healer a bunch of mana, and perhaps the fight if we were "close" to being able to win already. It sounds like the Vengeance changes will let a tank, tank from second one instead of having to worry about blowing all of your high-threat abilities ASAP just to get control of the stupid thing while you wait for your Vengeance to catch up.

All-in-all, I think the stuff GC mentioned is great for the more casual side of endgame PvE; some hardcore raiders might not like it because it makes it "too easy" (but then any GOOD tank wouldn't be losing threat in the first place, would he?).

This is mostly a QoL change that affects mostly RDF, and newbie tanks. It takes some of the pain out of trying to tank Heroics, and trying to learn how to tank, and it allows casuals to continue to be casual without getting yelled at so often by the more elite players they get stuck with in RDFs, and it allows the elites to continue to measure their e-peen with Recount and not die (and start vote-kicking newbie tanks because they can't do max DPS etc).

Edited, Aug 16th 2011 9:54pm by Lyrailis