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The Value of SkillFollow

#27 REDACTED, Posted: Jul 18 2011 at 11:51 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Most of the content doesnâ€™t required skills except for the heroics raids and high end arena (2500+). So if you donâ€™t care for these two, shiny epics and gems/enchants are your only concerns. Practicing, reading and calculations are not synonym of fun for most players. Eventually, you will out gear the content and feel like a super hero and enjoy the game anyway.

#28 Jul 20 2011 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good

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Mozared wrote:

His Excellency Aethien wrote:

If a Rogue or Warrior (Or anyone else, really) needs to take the long way around on a fire they @#%^ed up their movement earlier and are now paying the price.

That's not always true, though. There's the fact that it's nigh-impossible to predict fire placement in some fights: sure, you can assume you specifically are going to get hit with all the fight's abilities in the next four seconds, but this happens so rarely nobody really plans for it - because if you do and it doesn't happen, you only lose DPS. That's simply a risk vs reward kind of situation.

Of course you can't predict fire placement but you can make sure that you always have a good way out of/away from the fire that won't cost you dps time. It's called being prepared for what a fight can do to you. You (should) know everything that can happen to you in a fight and it's not very hard to figure out what you're going to do if those things happen. Boss drops pools of poison > Where can I run so I won't lose dps time and won't corner myself? Boss has fire that chases people > where am I going to run when it targets me? etc.
Sure, you can be so unlucky that you really can't help but run the long way round but those times are rare and it's best to assume/accept that you ****** up somewhere and make sure not to let it happen again.

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Last but not least, there's the fact that allies can unintentionally eff sh*t up for you. Prime example would be the type of fire DOT that leaves fire on the ground (Jaraxxus/Lana'thel); if someone throws that in your way, you might need to move around as well and lose DPS, even though it's not exactly your fault.

In that case someone else ****** up very badly which they'll get shouted at for.

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In the end, as a point in regards to the thread as a whole; what I thought about when seeing the title is the irony a lot of players miss in the game. There are a couple of talent builds and gearing choices generally decided 'best', but people don't always factor in that these might only be best in theory, because in practice nobody can play that well. And even aside from that, you should spec and gear according to your skill level, if there is a difference with the 'optimal build'.

No offense but 99/100 times what you're saying here is complete and utter ******** made up by casuals to defend their wacky, poorly performing talent build. Sometimes there are trade-offs you can make where you sacrifice some dps to get some utility but that's not a very common thing. (At least for dps, healers and tanks tend to have more flexibility in their builds)
The "best in theory, because in practice nobody can play that well" part is complete nonsense. The cookie cutter build is cookie cutter because people get the best results with that particular build both in simulations and in game.

#29 Jul 20 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good

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There are occasions where theorcrafters get stuff wrong, maybe because they haven't tried everything, or maybe because they screwed up their math. But most of the time you can trust what they have to say. One of my guildies recently did some testing and found out that the runes recommended for DW Frost DK aren't the best option. He switched it up a bit, and did about 9% extra DPS. He asked me to test it out on my DK as well, and I did my thing with the EJ recommended rune set up, and then changed to his, while he was watching the DPS meters, and he said I did about 9% more DPS too. So I stuck with what he suggested.

Sorry Moz, I have to agree with Aeth that saying that "nobody can play well enough to make a difference between a cookie cutter build and an original one" is complete BS. I have noticed DPS increases for myself when I switch to something I made up for leveling or for farting around with, and when I switch to the cookie cutter build. Now, it might not make a HUGE difference for people with less skill, but it should still make some difference. Ultimately though, it's your $15. If what you're doing works for you and your DPS is still good and/or nobody dies because of your healing or tanking, go for it. I've been playing Frost with my mage and loving it. I also do pretty kick *** DPS with her when I get lucky on my procs. Topping DPS meters as a frost mage in troll heroics it's just lulz.

#30 Jul 20 2011 at 7:34 PM Rating: Excellent

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Wonder Gem PigtailsOfDoom wrote:

One of my guildies recently did some testing and found out that the runes recommended for DW Frost DK aren't the best option. He switched it up a bit, and did about 9% extra DPS. He asked me to test it out on my DK as well, and I did my thing with the EJ recommended rune set up, and then changed to his, while he was watching the DPS meters, and he said I did about 9% more DPS too. So I stuck with what he suggested.

Just out of curiosity, are you talking about rune usage, or runeforges on your weapons?

#31 Jul 20 2011 at 8:33 PM Rating: Decent

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His Excellency Aethien wrote:

No offense but 99/100 times what you're saying here is complete and utter bullsh*t made up by casuals to defend their wacky, poorly performing talent build. Sometimes there are trade-offs you can make where you sacrifice some dps to get some utility but that's not a very common thing. (At least for dps, healers and tanks tend to have more flexibility in their builds)
The "best in theory, because in practice nobody can play that well" part is complete nonsense. The cookie cutter build is cookie cutter because people get the best results with that particular build both in simulations and in game.

I realize the point applies a lot less in WoW than it does in other games, but you can't deny it's there and dismiss it as "casual *************** A toolbox is only as good as the person using it. If I'm completely horrible at soloing as a warrior, then the 'fastest leveling build' might very well be slower for me than a build that gives me more survivability, because I'll spend more time corpse running. Again; specifically in WoW, the difference might be minimal (since 'speccing for survivability instead of leveling' with a warrior means something like "lose 2% damage, gain a minor heal"), but I'm sure there's a nice handful of off situations there where it really and truly applies.

What I was mostly referring to in regards to the theory vs practice thing is actually common stuff you see all the time. Body & Soul would be a prime example there - I'm sure there are a lot of top end holy priests using this talent, while technically it isn't the optimal build (you're going to have to drop throughput for it). And I also vaguely recall a situation back in WOTLK where for DK's, I think Blood was considered the optimal build, but only after a specific (really high-end) gear point at the time; before that Frost beat it by miles.

I'm not even talking about cookie cutter builds - those are builds that work best generally. These builds are used because people have already factored in that the optimal build might actually be so hard to play completely correctly that just swapping a point or two gives anyone who isn't a robot more mileage. Simply because if you'd *really* want to min/max you're looking at respeccing one or two talent points every other boss fight or so, and that's generally not regarded worth it.

#32 Jul 20 2011 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good

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Runeforges on weapons, sorry. >.<

#33 Jul 20 2011 at 9:21 PM Rating: Excellent

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Wonder Gem PigtailsOfDoom wrote:

Runeforges on weapons, sorry. >.<

What did you switch from and to? The rare time that I play my DK, he's DW Frost, so I'm curious.

#34 Jul 20 2011 at 9:41 PM Rating: Good

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Well I was using what it says in EJ before, and they say to use Razorice on MH and Fallen Crusader on Off, and if possible to keep a third weapon with Cinderglacier around for AoE. My guildie and I tested using FC on MH and Cinderglacier on Off, so that's what I'm using now.

#35 Jul 21 2011 at 12:54 AM Rating: Decent

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Mozared wrote:

I realize the point applies a lot less in WoW than it does in other games, but you can't deny it's there and dismiss it as "casual bullsh*t". A toolbox is only as good as the person using it. If I'm completely horrible at soloing as a warrior, then the 'fastest leveling build' might very well be slower for me than a build that gives me more survivability, because I'll spend more time corpse running. Again; specifically in WoW, the difference might be minimal (since 'speccing for survivability instead of leveling' with a warrior means something like "lose 2% damage, gain a minor heal"), but I'm sure there's a nice handful of off situations there where it really and truly applies.

We're talking about raiding here. Do whatever you like during leveling because it doesn't make much difference anyway.

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What I was mostly referring to in regards to the theory vs practice thing is actually common stuff you see all the time. Body & Soul would be a prime example there - I'm sure there are a lot of top end holy priests using this talent, while technically it isn't the optimal build (you're going to have to drop throughput for it). And I also vaguely recall a situation back in WOTLK where for DK's, I think Blood was considered the optimal build, but only after a specific (really high-end) gear point at the time; before that Frost beat it by miles.

Optimal build doesn't need to mean maxed throughput for healers and as I said, healers and tanks have some flexibility in their builds. As far as the DK thing, are you trying to be stupid? In a situation like that there's two "optimal" builds and you (should) know that.

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I'm not even talking about cookie cutter builds - those are builds that work best generally. These builds are used because people have already factored in that the optimal build might actually be so hard to play completely correctly that just swapping a point or two gives anyone who isn't a robot more mileage. Simply because if you'd *really* want to min/max you're looking at respeccing one or two talent points every other boss fight or so, and that's generally not regarded worth it.

Yeah... you're really being an idiot on purpose here, right?

#36 Jul 21 2011 at 6:36 AM Rating: Decent

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His Excellency Aethien wrote:

Optimal build doesn't need to mean maxed throughput for healers

Except that theoretically, it does. Playing a healer 'optimally' means you achieve the highest possibly throughput and run out of mana the second the boss dies and you need to stop healing. Theoretically, DPS should not get hit by any fires and a healer can dedicate about 90% of his toolbox to rough throughput, with the other 10% being the sustainability (mana) needed to get him exactly through the fight. Which also means that theoratically, a healer should gear and spec for whatever gives him the best throughput. Which means that the 'optimal' holy priest build, for example, would be something like this (and even then, Divine Fury, State of Mind and Tome of Light are completely expendable).

The reason everybody automatically assumes the thing you're saying (that healers and tanks have flexibility in their builds) is because it's a tried and tested method. Everybody knows that just speccing for pure throughput is only most effective in a completely ideal situation - any priest who has ever specced into B&S will know it's a godsend in a lot of situations. For DPS, this is not so obvious. Which really isn't a bad thing, because I'll agree that in 99% of the cases you're right and simply grabbing a cookie cutter will net you the highest damage in most of your fights. It's just not so that it's not there at all.

His Excellency Aethien wrote:

As far as the DK thing, are you trying to be stupid? In a situation like that there's two "optimal" builds and you (should) know that.

If someone at that point in time were to ask what the DK build for the most DPS was, he'd get the response 'Blood'. Which technically is true, except possibly not in his situation. Like you are saying, there are 'multiple optimal builds' - which one is best depends on the character using it. Which is my exact point. Only I was originally making it through skill rather than gear.

His Excellency Aethien wrote:

Yeah... you're really being an idiot on purpose here, right?

No, not at all. Very easy example; the optimal, say... Holy paladin build for Vezax is different from the optimal build for Yogg-Saron, because of the simple fact that everything that gives you mana regeneration is worth nil, zero, in the Vezax fight. If you'd really want to min/max, you'd be respeccing in between those two fights. But it's just like I said; nobody will ever even seriously consider this (unless they specifically want to experiment with stuff), because you might as well use your cookie cutter for both fights and be done with it - it's more than sufficient for both fights. Which is the point I was making; cookie cutters are already adjusted to work in most fights.

Again; I'm argueing a bunch of niche cases here, as I know cookie cutters are cookie cutters for a reason (cookies are delicious). I realize the difference in these cases might be only 1 or 2 points, if it exists at all; especially with the talent trees Cataclysm has compared to WOTLK. I'm just trying to promote actual thought, and it specifically harkens back to my example of LoL where the 'optimal' build wasn't 'optimal' for me back then because of my lack of skill. The "ZOMG GRAB A COOKIE CUTTER!!!" point bores me as that's what you can find pretty much everywhere around the web anyway.

#37 Jul 21 2011 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good

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Mozared wrote:

Except that theoretically, it does. Playing a healer 'optimally' means you achieve the highest possibly throughput and run out of mana the second the boss dies and you need to stop healing. Theoretically, DPS should not get hit by any fires and a healer can dedicate about 90% of his toolbox to rough throughput, with the other 10% being the sustainability (mana) needed to get him exactly through the fight. Which also means that theoratically, a healer should gear and spec for whatever gives him the best throughput. Which means that the 'optimal' holy priest build, for example, would be something like this (and even then, Divine Fury, State of Mind and Tome of Light are completely expendable).

The reason everybody automatically assumes the thing you're saying (that healers and tanks have flexibility in their builds) is because it's a tried and tested method. Everybody knows that just speccing for pure throughput is only most effective in a completely ideal situation - any priest who has ever specced into B&S will know it's a godsend in a lot of situations. For DPS, this is not so obvious. Which really isn't a bad thing, because I'll agree that in 99% of the cases you're right and simply grabbing a cookie cutter will net you the highest damage in most of your fights. It's just not so that it's not there at all.

Healers only need just enough throughput to not let people die, any talent points that end up going to overhealing are better spent towards utility instead. Which is the difference between dps and healing and why healers have more flexibility in their builds than dps.

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If someone at that point in time were to ask what the DK build for the most DPS was, he'd get the response 'Blood if you're past gear point X, else frost'.

Fixed.

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No, not at all. Very easy example; the optimal, say... Holy paladin build for Vezax is different from the optimal build for Yogg-Saron, because of the simple fact that everything that gives you mana regeneration is worth nil, zero, in the Vezax fight. If you'd really want to min/max, you'd be respeccing in between those two fights. But it's just like I said; nobody will ever even seriously consider this (unless they specifically want to experiment with stuff), because you might as well use your cookie cutter for both fights and be done with it - it's more than sufficient for both fights. Which is the point I was making; cookie cutters are already adjusted to work in most fights.

Yes, and everyone already knows this so your whole different fights need different things so you can't spec for the optimal build point is a retarded one, which is what I was saying.
And if you're doing progress, you do respec for that one fight. (Or you should anyway)

#38 Jul 21 2011 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good

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Survival Instincts, 50% damage reduction for 12 seconds, is a dps talent for me. Why? Because I do no damage when dead and making the healer's job easier makes them like me.

#39 Jul 21 2011 at 2:00 PM Rating: Excellent

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The thing about healing is that it's so reactionary it's really hard to theory-craft well. Your talents, stats, spell choice, etc. are based to a larger degree on your raid and situation then other roles, as people were mentioning of course. You need to be aware of the pros and cons of different setups, and pick and choose the right pieces for the particular encounter. It's frustrating sometimes as well as changes to other classes can influence your 'ideal' spec as well. A change in the talent tree that makes it easier for a pally to grab Sacred Cleansing may mean you have an additional talent point to play with, assuming you have a pally in the raid.

I'm not sure I'd view running out of mana the second a fight ends as ideal, unless you were pressing through some difficulty along the way. Having an extra 15-20% left in case of a minor problem or two would be better. Maximizing your output is one way to do it as well. I tried to know what spell priority gave me the best HPET, single target HPS, and HPM. That way when the situation dictated it I could change things up. Finally knowing the limits of your build was important too. You couldn't take everything, and if you were giving up those 3 points in Nature's Bounty, the point where you couldn't afford (mana-wise) to save someone came sooner.

That said there's a limit to it all, of course. Grabbing Nature's Ward because you can't manage to watch your own health bar is still not ideal.

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#40 Jul 21 2011 at 2:59 PM Rating: Good

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Quote:

One of my guildies recently did some testing and found out that the runes recommended for DW Frost DK aren't the best option. He switched it up a bit, and did about 9% extra DPS. He asked me to test it out on my DK as well, and I did my thing with the EJ recommended rune set up, and then changed to his, while he was watching the DPS meters, and he said I did about 9% more DPS too. So I stuck with what he suggested.

I really can't comprehend how this is possible. Cinderglacier's bonus should be mediocre. 10% buff to some of your FS/HBs should not be better than a 10% buff to ALL of them, plus a 10% buff to your Frost Fever, PLUS a 2% buff to your auto-attack (and possibly your obliterates/blood strikes, if it takes the modified weapon damage into account).

You would need over half of your FSs to be buffed by CG to catch up to the loss. Especially since you'll have HBs eating the procs as well. It just shouldn't be happening. Do you have any logs for those fights Pigtails?

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#41 Jul 21 2011 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent

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His Excellency Aethien wrote:

Healers only need just enough throughput to not let people die, any talent points that end up going to overhealing are better spent towards utility instead. Which is the difference between dps and healing and why healers have more flexibility in their builds than dps.

If you want to pull out these edges, then yes, healers only need just enough throughput to not let people die. Throughput is still the very best 'stat' for healers though, as mana regeneration past the point of "The fight has ended and I am now OOM" is 100% wasted and utility should not be needed at all in an ideal setting. Point I was making still is the same: theoretical optimal builds aren't always optimal.

His Excellency Aethien wrote:

Yes, and everyone already knows this so your whole different fights need different things so you can't spec for the optimal build point is a retarded one, which is what I was saying.
And if you're doing progress, you do respec for that one fight. (Or you should anyway)

Nice job turning it around. Not 'everyone already knows this' and that's exactly why I mentioned it. If you go to any given WoW-forum you get people like you yelling "GRAB THE COOKIE CUTTER!!!" with nothing else to it. While that'll get you a long way, ultimately it doesn't provoke a lot of thought. All I was trying to say is that there are exceptions, my point regarding LoL being a beautiful one. I'm trying to, in it's simplest form, say "think for yourself - the build everyone is praising might not be your best fit; be critical and double check if it really is".

Or in a nutshell: cookie cutter is a relative term, not a godsend present to be honored and used in every single circumstance. Your reply now is "Yeah but everybody already knows that so it's more important to preach the cookie cutter", which I find a lot more retarded then what I'm trying to say. If there's anything 'everyone already knows' it is that the cookie cutter is the best build for 99% of the cases. My point has just been drawn out of proportion because you've been hammering it with your cookie cutter every single post.

[rant]
Not that that's anything new, though; the people on Alla who do actually tend to get my point are usually too nice (or simple can't be ****** to get into the discussion, while it's easy for two or three cookie cutter advocates to join in and simply rephrase that the cookie cutter is important. I sometimes wonder what WoW boards with a taboo on the words 'cookie cutter' would be like, but then I realize that that'd probably be a less annoying version of EJ.
[/rant]

#42 Jul 22 2011 at 6:32 AM Rating: Default

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I personally could care less about the cookie cutter approach, I build my toons to suit me, not everyone else. If I let others decide what I should do at any time in my life, I would never have made it into adolesence... I will take advice/contructive criticism from folks I know and trust, but I tend to ignore the rest. I look at it this way... it's my toon, I'll play it the way I want.

#43 Jul 22 2011 at 4:30 PM Rating: Decent

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I guess I can throw my two cents in. I have to say I agree with Aethien on the importance of the cookie-cutter builds.

Quote:

There are a couple of talent builds and gearing choices generally decided 'best', but people don't always factor in that these might only be best in theory, because in practice nobody can play that well. And even aside from that, you should spec and gear according to your skill level, if there is a difference with the 'optimal build'.

I wouldn't say nobody can play that well, just a lot of people can't play that well. If you have to change the cookie-cutter build to increase your dps it's probably because you are doing more wrong with your spell priority/rotation/movement. I'm not talking about the three or four points that are left over and flexible, i'm talking about the core points of a talent build.

I am also talking about end-game and progression raiding. Who cares what spec or gear you use while leveling and questing. You can do all that without using any talents nowdays.

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Imagine if a warlock had to choose between SSing someone and gaining a 5% damage bonus. Optimally, he'd always use the damage bonus. But we all know that people die every now and then, and that's where skill comes into play. But recognizing the potential of your own skill and adjusting your kit to that is a skill of its own.

Thats the good thing about having enough talent points that you don't need to choose between major talents like that. The talents that are flexible are normally small dps gains or utility flexibility. The major talents should be a given.

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Nice job turning it around. Not 'everyone already knows this' and that's exactly why I mentioned it. If you go to any given WoW-forum you get people like you yelling "GRAB THE COOKIE CUTTER!!!" with nothing else to it. While that'll get you a long way, ultimately it doesn't provoke a lot of thought. All I was trying to say is that there are exceptions, my point regarding LoL being a beautiful one. I'm trying to, in it's simplest form, say "think for yourself - the build everyone is praising might not be your best fit; be critical and double check if it really is".

Yes if you did go on to any WoW forum and ask what talent build is the best for whatever class you should get the "use the cookie-cutter build". Now if you go to the same forum and ask "what talent build should I use for X fight?" you might get a different answer depending on the fight. Now you personally may not want to respec for different fights, but a lot of progression/end-game raiders do.

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[rant]
Not that that's anything new, though; the people on Alla who do actually tend to get my point are usually too nice (or simple can't be ****** to get into the discussion, while it's easy for two or three cookie cutter advocates to join in and simply rephrase that the cookie cutter is important. I sometimes wonder what WoW boards with a taboo on the words 'cookie cutter' would be like, but then I realize that that'd probably be a less annoying version of EJ.
[/rant]

Just because someone doesn't have the same idea's you do we are all "************* That seems pretty narrow-minded to me. You are also throwing out criticism to anyone else who supports cookie-cutter builds before they even post.

#44 Jul 22 2011 at 8:08 PM Rating: Excellent

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CaptinXeith wrote:

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Not that that's anything new, though; the people on Alla who do actually tend to get my point are usually too nice (or simple can't be ****** to get into the discussion...

Just because someone doesn't have the same idea's you do we are all "************* That seems pretty narrow-minded to me.

That's... kind of not what he said at all.

He was talking about people who read the thread, agree with him, but don't post and back him up. It was a Figure of Speechâ„¢. In no way I can see was he calling people who don't agree with him an "*********** Smiley: dubious

Smiley: dubious

Made judicious edits for length, since this page is turning into another doozy.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2011 10:11pm by IDrownFish

#45 Jul 23 2011 at 4:18 AM Rating: Good

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Ok i'll admit I may have jumped to a wrong conclusion on that. I just saw it as a kind of parting shot.

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