So I was bored and checked out wowinsider.
Read an interesting hunter article that can easily be extended to other classes. Especially the solo dummy test part.
The idea that most players are gear/spec centric when critiquing others as opposed to actually looking at what they are doing is particularly intriguing. As honestly someones skill level really does have a bigger impact than a slightly off-spec/gem/chant set up.
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idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Within the context of that article, if delaying your explosive shot 1/10 of a second is equal to losing one agi gem, then pointing out gear problems for players seeking help definitely isn't the worst thing you can do. Yeah, their ultimate problem is probably skill (as it is for, y'know, every Hunter but those in the top ranks). But if they have a significant number of gear problems, it's hardly irrelevant.
Doing half the damage they should? Yeah, it's probably skill. And I'd wager fire has little to do with it--I want to see their damage on a dummy.
It's also rough to really compare this to other classes. I agree that the basic premise is good, but some of the advice regarding numbers isn't. Hunter movement penalties are exceedingly low, with the only meaningful one being if they are forced into melee range. If a Rogue or Warrior need to get out of fire in a way that means taking the long way around, their dps is going to drop a lot. Hunters don't usually need to worry about that.
Even other ranged classes don't have that ability. They mostly just get a spammable low-damage ability.
So for Hunters, yeah, you shouldn't be doing less damage on a boss unless there's a mechanic specifically causing that. For most other classes? I'm not sold, at least for movement intensive fights. And if you can't manage your dps on stationary fights, you probably aren't deviating much from your target dummy anyway--both should be low.
Doing half the damage they should? Yeah, it's probably skill. And I'd wager fire has little to do with it--I want to see their damage on a dummy.
It's also rough to really compare this to other classes. I agree that the basic premise is good, but some of the advice regarding numbers isn't. Hunter movement penalties are exceedingly low, with the only meaningful one being if they are forced into melee range. If a Rogue or Warrior need to get out of fire in a way that means taking the long way around, their dps is going to drop a lot. Hunters don't usually need to worry about that.
Even other ranged classes don't have that ability. They mostly just get a spammable low-damage ability.
So for Hunters, yeah, you shouldn't be doing less damage on a boss unless there's a mechanic specifically causing that. For most other classes? I'm not sold, at least for movement intensive fights. And if you can't manage your dps on stationary fights, you probably aren't deviating much from your target dummy anyway--both should be low.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
idiggory wrote:
Within the context of that article, if delaying your explosive shot 1/10 of a second is equal to losing one agi gem, then pointing out gear problems for players seeking help definitely isn't the worst thing you can do. Yeah, their ultimate problem is probably skill (as it is for, y'know, every Hunter but those in the top ranks). But if they have a significant number of gear problems, it's hardly irrelevant.
Doing half the damage they should? Yeah, it's probably skill. And I'd wager fire has little to do with it--I want to see their damage on a dummy.
It's also rough to really compare this to other classes. I agree that the basic premise is good, but some of the advice regarding numbers isn't. Hunter movement penalties are exceedingly low, with the only meaningful one being if they are forced into melee range. If a Rogue or Warrior need to get out of fire in a way that means taking the long way around, their dps is going to drop a lot. Hunters don't usually need to worry about that.
Even other ranged classes don't have that ability. They mostly just get a spammable low-damage ability.
So for Hunters, yeah, you shouldn't be doing less damage on a boss unless there's a mechanic specifically causing that. For most other classes? I'm not sold, at least for movement intensive fights. And if you can't manage your dps on stationary fights, you probably aren't deviating much from your target dummy anyway--both should be low.
Doing half the damage they should? Yeah, it's probably skill. And I'd wager fire has little to do with it--I want to see their damage on a dummy.
It's also rough to really compare this to other classes. I agree that the basic premise is good, but some of the advice regarding numbers isn't. Hunter movement penalties are exceedingly low, with the only meaningful one being if they are forced into melee range. If a Rogue or Warrior need to get out of fire in a way that means taking the long way around, their dps is going to drop a lot. Hunters don't usually need to worry about that.
Even other ranged classes don't have that ability. They mostly just get a spammable low-damage ability.
So for Hunters, yeah, you shouldn't be doing less damage on a boss unless there's a mechanic specifically causing that. For most other classes? I'm not sold, at least for movement intensive fights. And if you can't manage your dps on stationary fights, you probably aren't deviating much from your target dummy anyway--both should be low.
The main point is that pointing out gear/gearing/specing issues is often going to have a much smaller impact in improving a persons DPS then pointing out ways they can maintain their optimal rotation/dealing with chaos as that has a larger impact on performance.
edit:spellz
Edited, Jul 14th 2011 10:24pm by Horsemouth
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
I agree, but that's not something that's easy to do. Beyond telling them if their rotation is correct, there is really no way of knowing what their actual problem is. Realistically, all you can do beyond rotation/gearing tips is encourage them to practice.
My point is that hunters are pretty much the only class that has another option. You can compare hunter logs and look at shot count compared to fight time, because they should be using the same number of shots in the same period, since their rotation doesn't change.
That's literally impossible to do for every other class. Since their actions while moving differ from their actions while stationary, you can't accurately compare two logs unless you were both in the battle, in the same role, around the same location. The varying amounts of movement per battle alone make it enough to destroy the ability to check a log for the kind of variances he is looking for (like being a little slow to use abilities).
My point is that hunters are pretty much the only class that has another option. You can compare hunter logs and look at shot count compared to fight time, because they should be using the same number of shots in the same period, since their rotation doesn't change.
That's literally impossible to do for every other class. Since their actions while moving differ from their actions while stationary, you can't accurately compare two logs unless you were both in the battle, in the same role, around the same location. The varying amounts of movement per battle alone make it enough to destroy the ability to check a log for the kind of variances he is looking for (like being a little slow to use abilities).
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
idiggory wrote:
I agree, but that's not something that's easy to do. Beyond telling them if their rotation is correct, there is really no way of knowing what their actual problem is. Realistically, all you can do beyond rotation/gearing tips is encourage them to practice.
My point is that hunters are pretty much the only class that has another option. You can compare hunter logs and look at shot count compared to fight time, because they should be using the same number of shots in the same period, since their rotation doesn't change.
That's literally impossible to do for every other class. Since their actions while moving differ from their actions while stationary, you can't accurately compare two logs unless you were both in the battle, in the same role, around the same location. The varying amounts of movement per battle alone make it enough to destroy the ability to check a log for the kind of variances he is looking for (like being a little slow to use abilities).
My point is that hunters are pretty much the only class that has another option. You can compare hunter logs and look at shot count compared to fight time, because they should be using the same number of shots in the same period, since their rotation doesn't change.
That's literally impossible to do for every other class. Since their actions while moving differ from their actions while stationary, you can't accurately compare two logs unless you were both in the battle, in the same role, around the same location. The varying amounts of movement per battle alone make it enough to destroy the ability to check a log for the kind of variances he is looking for (like being a little slow to use abilities).
No, you can tell if someone isn't maximizing Envemon buff uptime, you can check for Empowered Shadows buff uptime, you can see if someone is using TF on CD, DoT uptime is easy to see, aligning CDs, etc etc.
Rotation tips and dealing with chaos tips are things you can suggest to people. The article, in my opinion, is stating that dealing with that has a larger impact on performance than saying, lol you have 2 gems that are bad and 2 talents points that are off.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Lol, I reported the second one for deletion. :P Dunno how it happened.
And I definitely agree that skill is more important--everyone does. But I've never seen people imagine that regemming alone could make up a 4k deficiency.
And there are things you can check, sure. But maintaining smaller things when needing to move is very different than needing to keep up with your whole rotation. It shouldn't be that hard to get a ranged DoT back up on a target, even if you have to move. But learning how to minimize moving is going to buff your dps a lot more, and that can't be taught over a forum or in an article.
When people tell someone to use the proper rotation, it's implied that they need to use the proper rotation properly.
The skill portion is the thing you can't really address. At least not without a lot of data and the willingness to look at all of it in an encounter-specific manner.
I totally agree that skill is obviously better (I was honestly surprised by how much gear WAS playing a part). I just think that there's no much else you can do to help a person unless you can actually watch them play.
And I definitely agree that skill is more important--everyone does. But I've never seen people imagine that regemming alone could make up a 4k deficiency.
And there are things you can check, sure. But maintaining smaller things when needing to move is very different than needing to keep up with your whole rotation. It shouldn't be that hard to get a ranged DoT back up on a target, even if you have to move. But learning how to minimize moving is going to buff your dps a lot more, and that can't be taught over a forum or in an article.
When people tell someone to use the proper rotation, it's implied that they need to use the proper rotation properly.
The skill portion is the thing you can't really address. At least not without a lot of data and the willingness to look at all of it in an encounter-specific manner.
I totally agree that skill is obviously better (I was honestly surprised by how much gear WAS playing a part). I just think that there's no much else you can do to help a person unless you can actually watch them play.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Missing 5 cobra shots over a 5min fight is the same as not using any glyphs at all? Given that one glyph alone doubles Kill Shot damage I find that hard to believe. Pulling my hunter up on FemaleDwarf KS average damage is twice that of CS, so if the boss spends even 20 seconds (eh, make it 25 to account for GCDs) in the last 20% then that glyph alone is more damage than 5 CS. Maybe I'm looking through too much of a BM lens and this is different for SV hunters. Saying a few thousand dps is the same as "not using a pet at all" is definitely not true for BM.
As far as skill goes I agree that it counts for more, but most of the time there's no easy way to say "here's my skillscore, what can I do better?" I've tried to help other kitty druids before, and even comparing logs I can can usually see why I did more damage but not why I did more damage, if you know what I mean. I wove in more Ferocious Bites perhaps, but I can't tell if she was getting combo point screwed at the wrong times. I can check for the obvious (Rip/Savage Roar uptime and total energy usage for example) but "rng hated/loved you" makes it hard to get much deeper.
We look at gear/talents because those are easy to diagnose and easy to fix. If a guy comes into the doctor with Lupus and a broken finger, he's getting that finger fixed even if they take forever to pin down the disease. Sure it may not me the guy's major ailment, but that doesn't mean it can't be fixed while he's there. If my mage guildy's doing half the damage she could be I can't help her; I don't know mages and she's not self-aware enough to know what's going wrong. All I can do is check gems/enchants and send her to other mages knowing that the ones we have are jerks, she won't learn anything and will feel like crap.
As far as skill goes I agree that it counts for more, but most of the time there's no easy way to say "here's my skillscore, what can I do better?" I've tried to help other kitty druids before, and even comparing logs I can can usually see why I did more damage but not why I did more damage, if you know what I mean. I wove in more Ferocious Bites perhaps, but I can't tell if she was getting combo point screwed at the wrong times. I can check for the obvious (Rip/Savage Roar uptime and total energy usage for example) but "rng hated/loved you" makes it hard to get much deeper.
We look at gear/talents because those are easy to diagnose and easy to fix. If a guy comes into the doctor with Lupus and a broken finger, he's getting that finger fixed even if they take forever to pin down the disease. Sure it may not me the guy's major ailment, but that doesn't mean it can't be fixed while he's there. If my mage guildy's doing half the damage she could be I can't help her; I don't know mages and she's not self-aware enough to know what's going wrong. All I can do is check gems/enchants and send her to other mages knowing that the ones we have are jerks, she won't learn anything and will feel like crap.
idiggory wrote:
If a Rogue or Warrior need to get out of fire in a way that means taking the long way around, their dps is going to drop a lot. Hunters don't usually need to worry about that.
selebrin wrote:
Missing 5 cobra shots over a 5min fight is the same as not using any glyphs at all? Given that one glyph alone doubles Kill Shot damage I find that hard to believe. Pulling my hunter up on FemaleDwarf KS average damage is twice that of CS, so if the boss spends even 20 seconds (eh, make it 25 to account for GCDs) in the last 20% then that glyph alone is more damage than 5 CS. Maybe I'm looking through too much of a BM lens and this is different for SV hunters. Saying a few thousand dps is the same as "not using a pet at all" is definitely not true for BM.
Quote:
As far as skill goes I agree that it counts for more, but most of the time there's no easy way to say "here's my skillscore, what can I do better?" I've tried to help other kitty druids before, and even comparing logs I can can usually see why I did more damage but not why I did more damage, if you know what I mean. I wove in more Ferocious Bites perhaps, but I can't tell if she was getting combo point screwed at the wrong times. I can check for the obvious (Rip/Savage Roar uptime and total energy usage for example) but "rng hated/loved you" makes it hard to get much deeper.
Speaking of skill... Meet the worst druid I have ever met... Not only is he a DPS feral druid who changes intermittently between caster form, cat form, and bear form, and only does 1-2k DPS, he also did not acknowledge or react to my repeated attempts to tell him that bear druid is for tank and cat druid is for fite.
And seriously, check out his gear, glyphs and gems. LOLS! Not a single piece of his gear is enchanted either.
And seriously, check out his gear, glyphs and gems. LOLS! Not a single piece of his gear is enchanted either.
Sometimes I find that a person's skill in adapting to the situation and staying alive is more important than their technical skill or their gear and talents being optimized. I remember finding myself at the top of damage done charts even though several people outdid me on dps but died partway through the fight. I know people who are skilled at optimizing their dps to its fullest but who fail at raid mechanics or other aspects of their class. I used to be in a guild with a Mage who put out phenomenal numbers but would require a battle rez often and who always called out for ennervates and hand of salv because he didn't think that managing his mana or threat should interfere with the perfect execution of his rotation. The guild put up with it because he was the brother of the main tank and one of the main healers and of course they liked his big dps too.
One thing I have found is that once people get to know how I am in raids, they are often willing to take my less-geared alts into raids because they know that while I may lack in some technical skill in playing other classes, they would rather have someone with less dps who doesn't fail to boss mechanics than someone with great dps who also wipes the raid because they think their dps is more important than doing the fight correctly.
One thing I have found is that once people get to know how I am in raids, they are often willing to take my less-geared alts into raids because they know that while I may lack in some technical skill in playing other classes, they would rather have someone with less dps who doesn't fail to boss mechanics than someone with great dps who also wipes the raid because they think their dps is more important than doing the fight correctly.
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Quote:
As far as skill goes I agree that it counts for more, but most of the time there's no easy way to say "here's my skillscore, what can I do better?" I've tried to help other kitty druids before, and even comparing logs I can can usually see why I did more damage but not why I did more damage, if you know what I mean. I wove in more Ferocious Bites perhaps, but I can't tell if she was getting combo point screwed at the wrong times. I can check for the obvious (Rip/Savage Roar uptime and total energy usage for example) but "rng hated/loved you" makes it hard to get much deeper.
It depends. That's one of the obvious fixes, but kitty rotation starts at not using FB at all, then once you learn how to keep the timers up you start weaving FB in when you have the chance. This involves knowing when you can spare the combo points and still get back to 5 before Rip falls off, for example. If I make the call and suddenly I'm getting no crits (double combo points) or OoC procs (free Shred) then I'm probably going to lose a few seconds of rip. While a log will note the loss of Rip uptime it won't say why it happened unless I delve into blow-by-blow. I'm self-aware enough to remember those moments, other people just say "man, I suck at kitty".
Apparently fire mages have the largest RNG swings, but kitty's all about adjusting to what you're dealt in terms of energy and CPs. At some point you're going to make a mistake or get boned by the dice, and the feral who has the most efficient recovery from this wins. And WoL doesn't have a "got his **** back together" table.
selebrin wrote:
We look at gear/talents because those are easy to diagnose and easy to fix. If a guy comes into the doctor with Lupus and a broken finger, he's getting that finger fixed even if they take forever to pin down the disease. Sure it may not me the guy's major ailment, but that doesn't mean it can't be fixed while he's there. If my mage guildy's doing half the damage she could be I can't help her; I don't know mages and she's not self-aware enough to know what's going wrong. All I can do is check gems/enchants and send her to other mages knowing that the ones we have are jerks, she won't learn anything and will feel like crap.
This.
Telling a person to reforge to mastery, move 2 points from 'X' to 'Y', and use 'Z' on CD is easy. They can fix it, you can be helpful, and there's often a minor improvement in performance.
Telling someone to work on their reaction time and familiarity with their keybinds (just for example) isn't something that can be improved quickly, or really at all sometimes. You can't just upgrade your skill like you can your gear.
However it can be hard to tell someone to go practice more without coming off sounding like an ***. People tend to take offense at it, as they've often invested several months getting their character to the cap and aren't fond of the thought that they don't know how to play it.
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
In t4 my rogue's DPS changed nearly 15% just by changing my positioning and by thinking ahead of the rotation ("I'll need to do X in 3 sec"). No gear changes over a couple of weeks, just some advice from a great and helpful person in my guild at the time (/hug Kyan). I just got started serious raiding with my first melee toon and was so focused on getting upgrades to be "raid ready" that I didn't realize just how important playing better was.
Knowing where to stand, thinking about where to stand next, knowing your keybinds well enough where muscle memory takes over having to think about what to do next, etc all have more impact on throughput than any gem, bad enchant, or pvp weapon.
Skill > gear. Always and forever.
Knowing where to stand, thinking about where to stand next, knowing your keybinds well enough where muscle memory takes over having to think about what to do next, etc all have more impact on throughput than any gem, bad enchant, or pvp weapon.
Skill > gear. Always and forever.
someproteinguy wrote:
However it can be hard to tell someone to go practice more without coming off sounding like an ***. People tend to take offense at it, as they've often invested several months getting their character to the cap and aren't fond of the thought that they don't know how to play it.
TherionSaysWhat wrote:
In t4 my rogue's DPS changed nearly 15% just by changing my positioning and by thinking ahead of the rotation ("I'll need to do X in 3 sec"). No gear changes over a couple of weeks, just some advice from a great and helpful person in my guild at the time (/hug Kyan). I just got started serious raiding with my first melee toon and was so focused on getting upgrades to be "raid ready" that I didn't realize just how important playing better was.
Knowing where to stand, thinking about where to stand next, knowing your keybinds well enough where muscle memory takes over having to think about what to do next, etc all have more impact on throughput than any gem, bad enchant, or pvp weapon.
Skill > gear. Always and forever.
Knowing where to stand, thinking about where to stand next, knowing your keybinds well enough where muscle memory takes over having to think about what to do next, etc all have more impact on throughput than any gem, bad enchant, or pvp weapon.
Skill > gear. Always and forever.
Watch how the best players in your raid move on farm fights and make a game of it to predict where they're going to move and why. If they're really good they'll be thinking ahead a step or two more than you are and there's tons to learn.
Something else that comes to my mind; the distinction between knowledge and skill.
For example you can have great muscle-memory and encounter foresight, but if you don't know the boss has a 360 degree cleave you're still taking a dirt nap: a lack of knowledge. Conversely, knowing the boss has a cleave with a range of 20 yards and then being too distracted or unaware to move out of the way in time is a failing of skill.
Standing in the fire takes the same amount of skill as not standing in the fire. Knowing what buttons to press isn't skill, pressing them in a correct and timely matter is. Knowing where to move does take more skill then looking at a website, doing so without losing DPS is a testament to skill, etc.
Not sure if anyone else really sees that distinction or not; it's not really as clear cut as I make it sound for sure. Just something on my mind after thinking about this thread and the linked one.
For example you can have great muscle-memory and encounter foresight, but if you don't know the boss has a 360 degree cleave you're still taking a dirt nap: a lack of knowledge. Conversely, knowing the boss has a cleave with a range of 20 yards and then being too distracted or unaware to move out of the way in time is a failing of skill.
Standing in the fire takes the same amount of skill as not standing in the fire. Knowing what buttons to press isn't skill, pressing them in a correct and timely matter is. Knowing where to move does take more skill then looking at a website, doing so without losing DPS is a testament to skill, etc.
Not sure if anyone else really sees that distinction or not; it's not really as clear cut as I make it sound for sure. Just something on my mind after thinking about this thread and the linked one.
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
I think skill is a combination of all that, Protein. Knowing which buttons to press as well as when to press them. Can't have one without the other.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Hmmm how about skill how well you put your knowledge into performance or something? Sounds like something I've heard passed around these parts before. Don't get me wrong I see the skill-based knowledge thing, and them being intertwined and such, but for some reason my little brain is determined to drive a wedge in there, real or not.
knowledge + skill + gear + social skills = progression
Is what my un-caffeinated brain says this morning. At minimum its an over-simplification that ripe for being picked apart.
Edited, Jul 16th 2011 6:12am by someproteinguy
knowledge + skill + gear + social skills = progression
Is what my un-caffeinated brain says this morning. At minimum its an over-simplification that ripe for being picked apart.
Edited, Jul 16th 2011 6:12am by someproteinguy
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
Selebrin's Signature wrote:
"Skill is a measure of how fast a player can turn experience into competence." -- Anedris, EJ forums
Yeah, you might have read something like that on this forum.
This quote has only been in his sig for the last couple of years anyway
Skill vs Knowledge. Physics can tell me the exact trajectory to send a golf ball down the fairway to get the ball on the green every time. Unless I'm a decent golfer, I'm not going to be able to use that knowledge very effectively.
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Selebrin's Signature wrote:
"Skill is a measure of how fast a player can turn experience into competence." -- Anedris, EJ forums
Yeah, you might have read something like that on this forum.
This quote has only been in his sig for the last couple of years anyway
Yeah that one. Knew I was getting it from somewhere.
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
Was thinking of the same quote. 
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
On the topic of skill, I think there are two different ideas of "skill" that work at different levels.
Conceptualization -- this is the one my sig refers to. This involves things like standing in fire and finding the most efficient way to NOT stand in fire. For example I have a knack for seeing something once and understanding it, though if it's a tricky mechanic it may still take me a few tries to figure out how to handle it. I fight Shannox once and I understand all the mechanics, automatically prioritizing trap avoidance, knowing how to move to minimize spear damage, and watching my Kitty Charge cooldown for Rageface's pounce (same cooldown and gives me a free attack that crits for enough to break the rage? Awesome.) Then I get to try and explain it to others in my guild who, through misprioritization or tunnel vision stumble into traps or panic when a dog jumps on them.
Physical -- this is when conceptual skill gets high enough that physical limitations of the person or the computer hold them back from ideal dps. In the article's examples moving during Cobra Shot would be a matter of conceptual skill (knowing when you can stand still long enough to get one off, given the fight), and being a fraction of a second slow on Explosive Shot is a matter of physical skill.
For example I'm a clicker. I have difficulty with keybinds not only for reaction times but also because of screwed up joints in my hands; it'd difficult for me to move some of my fingers independantly and for some reason my left ring finger in particular likes to spasm. It's in an attempt to counteract this physical skill limitation that I've tried to improve my conceptual skill. Because I know that clicking is "slower" (compared to ideal keybinds) I make sure to know what I'm going to press long before I press it. I also know where all my abilities are and could click them blindfolded (and did so once on a bet, not my best dps but better than many could do blind), allowing me to focus on the main screen to the same extent that a keybinder can. I'm hardly a robot when it comes to kitty rotation, but I perform much better than others I've been around. I could probably improve my play by working around the physical limitations (find keybinds that don't use my bad fingers and practice until they're as automatic as clicking) but the discomfort's enough that, at my current level of play (normal Firelands in a casual guild, topping the meters consistently on appropriate fights) I prefer my current methods.
In most cases the biggest improvement a player can show is in their conceptual skill. I also feel it's the easier one to improve, but I'm biased because it comes so much more easily to me.
Conceptualization -- this is the one my sig refers to. This involves things like standing in fire and finding the most efficient way to NOT stand in fire. For example I have a knack for seeing something once and understanding it, though if it's a tricky mechanic it may still take me a few tries to figure out how to handle it. I fight Shannox once and I understand all the mechanics, automatically prioritizing trap avoidance, knowing how to move to minimize spear damage, and watching my Kitty Charge cooldown for Rageface's pounce (same cooldown and gives me a free attack that crits for enough to break the rage? Awesome.) Then I get to try and explain it to others in my guild who, through misprioritization or tunnel vision stumble into traps or panic when a dog jumps on them.
Physical -- this is when conceptual skill gets high enough that physical limitations of the person or the computer hold them back from ideal dps. In the article's examples moving during Cobra Shot would be a matter of conceptual skill (knowing when you can stand still long enough to get one off, given the fight), and being a fraction of a second slow on Explosive Shot is a matter of physical skill.
For example I'm a clicker. I have difficulty with keybinds not only for reaction times but also because of screwed up joints in my hands; it'd difficult for me to move some of my fingers independantly and for some reason my left ring finger in particular likes to spasm. It's in an attempt to counteract this physical skill limitation that I've tried to improve my conceptual skill. Because I know that clicking is "slower" (compared to ideal keybinds) I make sure to know what I'm going to press long before I press it. I also know where all my abilities are and could click them blindfolded (and did so once on a bet, not my best dps but better than many could do blind), allowing me to focus on the main screen to the same extent that a keybinder can. I'm hardly a robot when it comes to kitty rotation, but I perform much better than others I've been around. I could probably improve my play by working around the physical limitations (find keybinds that don't use my bad fingers and practice until they're as automatic as clicking) but the discomfort's enough that, at my current level of play (normal Firelands in a casual guild, topping the meters consistently on appropriate fights) I prefer my current methods.
In most cases the biggest improvement a player can show is in their conceptual skill. I also feel it's the easier one to improve, but I'm biased because it comes so much more easily to me.
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
If a Rogue or Warrior (Or anyone else, really) needs to take the long way around on a fire they @#%^ed up their movement earlier and are now paying the price.
That's not always true, though. There's the fact that it's nigh-impossible to predict fire placement in some fights: sure, you can assume you specifically are going to get hit with all the fight's abilities in the next four seconds, but this happens so rarely nobody really plans for it - because if you do and it doesn't happen, you only lose DPS. That's simply a risk vs reward kind of situation.
But even aside from that, there are some fights where the fire is indeed so unpredictable that you simply can't avoid losing DPS to it from time to time. Simple example; say you need to run from a boss because of some kind of boss-based AoE ability. After that you need to run back in to deal more damage. Imagine the boss places a fire directly between you and him. You'll have to go around and you'll lose DPS.
Last but not least, there's the fact that allies can unintentionally eff **** up for you. Prime example would be the type of fire DOT that leaves fire on the ground (Jaraxxus/Lana'thel); if someone throws that in your way, you might need to move around as well and lose DPS, even though it's not exactly your fault.
In the end, as a point in regards to the thread as a whole; what I thought about when seeing the title is the irony a lot of players miss in the game. There are a couple of talent builds and gearing choices generally decided 'best', but people don't always factor in that these might only be best in theory, because in practice nobody can play that well. And even aside from that, you should spec and gear according to your skill level, if there is a difference with the 'optimal build'.
Simple example; I've been playing a lot of League of Legends lately, where you control one hero and every match you can choose between two 'summoner spells' that can be used on your hero aside from his normal abilities. Think potions or soulstones in WoW. One of the possible summoner spells is 'ressurrection', which instantly brings your hero back from the dead. It is pretty much unanimously regarded a terrible spell, as you should not be dead in the first place. But what if you're a new player? When I went into my first few games, damn right I grabbed ressurrection, because I knew I was going to be eating a lot of dust. Sure, if you're good enough, then you're probably better off grabbing something like Clairvoyance, which allows you to see any specific point on the map and thus keep track of enemy hero movement. Point is, me, being a newbie at that point, couldn't use Clairvoyance in such a good fashion that it surpassed the use of ressurrection, from which it was easier for me to gain benefit.
Imagine if a warlock had to choose between SSing someone and gaining a 5% damage bonus. Optimally, he'd always use the damage bonus. But we all know that people die every now and then, and that's where skill comes into play. But recognizing the potential of your own skill and adjusting your kit to that is a skill of its own.
As others have said gear and talents are easier to pinpoint and change. If someone in my guild came to me for help (or there's a fail pug) that is usually the first thing I look at. It's easy to see, easy to change (other than the people who also fail at making gold) and isn't very dependent on class knowledge. I can tell that a dps warrior in healing/tank/agility gear or a warlock with +60 stam gems is failing at doing it right, I can't look at the abilities they are using and suggest where they are going wrong though, I just don't know enough about those classes. Where I do know the class and can see obvious errors (like the fire mage using blizzard to aoe) I will point that out as well. I think it misses the point that most people will aim to fix the easiest problems and then take things from there if the improvement still isn't good enough.
Improving skill is also a slower process, if you ask someone to change their spec/gems/reforge is can be done quickly and you can easily see the results. It's harder to tell someone to move out of the fire/be quicker on keybindings/make decisions about rotation faster and for them to practice and show you that they've practiced (other than at a noticeable increase from previous performance).
And it is harder to tell for different classes, other dps may be more RNG dependent or more difficult from logs to tell where they are going wrong. For healers there also isn't the possibility for fine tuning to the extent that the article has for hunters, because the aim is not to do as much as possible but to be as effective as possible. Other than glaring mistakes it's more difficult to work out where a healer is going wrong, there is no set rotation and you have to take into account the other members of the healing team. I'm assuming tanking would be similar, you can see when someone is making a big mistake (e.g not taunting at the right time) but trying to take someone from just good enough to awesome is much harder to work out how to do.
Improving skill is also a slower process, if you ask someone to change their spec/gems/reforge is can be done quickly and you can easily see the results. It's harder to tell someone to move out of the fire/be quicker on keybindings/make decisions about rotation faster and for them to practice and show you that they've practiced (other than at a noticeable increase from previous performance).
And it is harder to tell for different classes, other dps may be more RNG dependent or more difficult from logs to tell where they are going wrong. For healers there also isn't the possibility for fine tuning to the extent that the article has for hunters, because the aim is not to do as much as possible but to be as effective as possible. Other than glaring mistakes it's more difficult to work out where a healer is going wrong, there is no set rotation and you have to take into account the other members of the healing team. I'm assuming tanking would be similar, you can see when someone is making a big mistake (e.g not taunting at the right time) but trying to take someone from just good enough to awesome is much harder to work out how to do.
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