This is a simple case of Rawdeal thinking he's better than everyone else, and thinking he could 'prove' it with such a system.
Here's a revelation (revelAtion, not revolUtion): You aren't better than everyone else. I'm not better than everyone else. Whoever the kids like the strat videos of these days isn't better than everyone else.
Skill already makes up a large margin in the game. If you have the skills, and a slight resemblance of good gear, you WILL put out good numbers, whether it's threat per second, attacks avoided total, damage per second, total damage done, heals per second, heals per mana, etc.
My mage isn't in raid gear, yet in frost spec he can ALMOST do as much as the old StateofDPS numbers (On argabarga in Tol Barad, he does around 16-17K). Now, would gear get me the other 5K to hit the 'top' numbers for a frost DPS (pre 4.1)? Possibly, but I'll probably never know, because if I get into raiding, it'll probably be with my Priest, Pally, or DK, as I love being versatile.
However, I DO know that if someone who had no skill, was bad at timing overlaps, and didn't have the right priority list played MY character, their DPS would probably be sub 10K.
Removing 'gear points' from the game makes it some sh*tty, grindy, Korean game, like Guild wars or something. What is there to strive for if your tank is going to ALWAYS be at 30% avoidance? Or do you make the flat avoidance the cap for a tank? Bet you didn't think of stuff like that, because you are OBVIOUSLY DPS minded to think this would work.
When I first dinged 85 in blues and greens, I was able to keep groups alive without going OOM. If the gear isn't increasing, the bosses aren't going to be hitting harder, meaning that I've reached my 'ceiling' right upon dinging as far as healing is concerned.
Edited, Jun 15th 2011 2:31pm by jaysgsl
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No more stats/level on gears?Follow
AstarintheDruid wrote:
Groups that are actively trying to progress, even if they aren't very good, can still see their numbers improve as they get better gear. They get to feel a sense of progress. Just slapping an ICC-style buff on everyone in every tier of content doesn't give the same sense of progression.
I know my limits and some dungeons/raids I do wait for buffs to do it. Blizzard buff heroics and raids each patches as we go along, nothing new here. I do prefer exotic pets, new mounts, glowing armor than another brownish epics that will be absolute in 8 weeks.
jaysgsl wrote:
This is a simple case of Rawdeal thinking he's better than everyone else, and thinking he could 'prove' it with such a system.
This "system" is no different than what we have now, players are failing in Heroics and raids are barely touch, not because of gears but because of complexity. I just want to wear my flip flop g#d Dammit!
RAWDEAL wrote:
jaysgsl wrote:
This is a simple case of Rawdeal thinking he's better than everyone else, and thinking he could 'prove' it with such a system.
This "system" is no different than what we have now, players are failing in Heroics and raids are barely touch, not because of gears but because of complexity. I just want to wear my flip flop g#d Dammit!
May I propose something else? Why not just letting your appearance change to what you want, whatever gear you are wearing? Warhammer and some subsequents MMO tried this, but didnt went too far, only with minor adjustment to gear colors.
Why not have a tab where you choose your appearance accordingly with what you did. Say, besides gear, every raid boss drop 10 (or 25) tokens that let you choose some type of gear that only work on your appearance tab. That way, you would have rewards even if you are only able to clear early easier bosses and you can choose your appearance to whatever you feel like.
Harder bosses drop rarer tokens, easier bosses drop more common tokens. For example, Nefarian would drop different tokens that could make your weapon glow in specifics ways while Magmaw drop tokens for different shirts.
That way, you would reward people who doesnt care about stats in gears and reward people that feel that better gear gives a sense of reward in itself.
If this topic is proposed to be a ThinkTank, I think my idea is better than yours ;)
Brisin wrote:
RAWDEAL wrote:
jaysgsl wrote:
This is a simple case of Rawdeal thinking he's better than everyone else, and thinking he could 'prove' it with such a system.
This "system" is no different than what we have now, players are failing in Heroics and raids are barely touch, not because of gears but because of complexity. I just want to wear my flip flop g#d Dammit!
May I propose something else? Why not just letting your appearance change to what you want, whatever gear you are wearing? Warhammer and some subsequents MMO tried this, but didnt went too far, only with minor adjustment to gear colors.
Why not have a tab where you choose your appearance accordingly with what you did. Say, besides gear, every raid boss drop 10 (or 25) tokens that let you choose some type of gear that only work on your appearance tab. That way, you would have rewards even if you are only able to clear early easier bosses and you can choose your appearance to whatever you feel like.
Harder bosses drop rarer tokens, easier bosses drop more common tokens. For example, Nefarian would drop different tokens that could make your weapon glow in specifics ways while Magmaw drop tokens for different shirts.
That way, you would reward people who doesnt care about stats in gears and reward people that feel that better gear gives a sense of reward in itself.
If this topic is proposed to be a ThinkTank, I think my idea is better than yours ;)
RAWDEAL wrote:
AstarintheDruid wrote:
Groups that are actively trying to progress, even if they aren't very good, can still see their numbers improve as they get better gear. They get to feel a sense of progress. Just slapping an ICC-style buff on everyone in every tier of content doesn't give the same sense of progression.
They progress because of knowledge of the fights; the gear requirement should be good enough. I did ZG for the first time and I fail, came back with the same gear, same group and got it. Learning your class, the fight and know how to use CD is more important at higher difficulty.
I know my limits and some dungeons/raids I do wait for buffs to do it. Blizzard buff heroics and raids each patches as we go along, nothing new here. I do prefer exotic pets, new mounts, glowing armor than another brownish epics that will be
I never did ZG in Classic WoW, and I ran it for the first time last week on my warrior in barely-high-enough gear. The fights aren't that hard once you've seen them once.
You're either deliberately ignoring or totally ignorant to what improving gear actually does. Tanks get more avoidance and health, no amount of skill will cover that. Healers have more mana for more heals, and those heals are bigger. More spirit effectively extends their mana bar even further. And for DPS, better gear means that that guy that's only working at about 80% of his potential is still doing more DPS. All that extra stamina means that everyone has a little more time to react to anything that's not an insta-kill mechanic.
AstarintheDruid wrote:
RAWDEAL wrote:
AstarintheDruid wrote:
Groups that are actively trying to progress, even if they aren't very good, can still see their numbers improve as they get better gear. They get to feel a sense of progress. Just slapping an ICC-style buff on everyone in every tier of content doesn't give the same sense of progression.
They progress because of knowledge of the fights; the gear requirement should be good enough. I did ZG for the first time and I fail, came back with the same gear, same group and got it. Learning your class, the fight and know how to use CD is more important at higher difficulty.
I know my limits and some dungeons/raids I do wait for buffs to do it. Blizzard buff heroics and raids each patches as we go along, nothing new here. I do prefer exotic pets, new mounts, glowing armor than another brownish epics that will be
I never did ZG in Classic WoW, and I ran it for the first time last week on my warrior in barely-high-enough gear. The fights aren't that hard once you've seen them once.
You're either deliberately ignoring or totally ignorant to what improving gear actually does. Tanks get more avoidance and health, no amount of skill will cover that. Healers have more mana for more heals, and those heals are bigger. More spirit effectively extends their mana bar even further. And for DPS, better gear means that that guy that's only working at about 80% of his potential is still doing more DPS. All that extra stamina means that everyone has a little more time to react to anything that's not an insta-kill mechanic.
That difference is exactly what I meant when I said that better gear allows for more minor mistakes and for bad people to be carried through by better people.
And, you know what? Some good people knows they are carrying others and actually dont care. I know a bunch of people in my old social/casual guild that could have a spot in good raid groups but actively choose not to because their wife/children/brother/friend is bad and they want to raid together.
If you take gear from the equation, that wouldnt be possible. And people would leave. Thus, financial failure. Thus, no more WoW. Thus, it's not a good idea for this game.
Maybe a new one where skill were focused. But, then again, this new one would have a really small playerbase. Wich is not bad in itself. A lot of MMOs have small playerbase and are still active after severall years.
RAWDEAL wrote:
My main are Tanks, and I am an average players. Currently I can't raid some because of lack of knowledge or skills. I play on RP servers and got a lot of gears that I can't use for no reason.
I get that you're French, but come on, man, you're killing me here.
I'll ignore the double negative, the incorrect plural of 'gear' and the borderline schizophrenic plural of yourself, but what does your role-playing have to do with you being unable to equip the gear you want to equip? If you want to fight Deathwing in your flip-flops, put them on and go to town. Sure, you'd probably not win, but what did you expect when you took on a Dragon Aspect toe-to-toe in a pair of $4 plastic sandals?
Damn you, Therion, now I have to edit just to remove an edit.
Edited, Jun 15th 2011 11:26pm by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Mazra wrote:
If you want to fight Deathwing in your flip-flops, put them on and go to town. Sure, you'd probably not win, but what did you expect when you took on a Dragon Aspect toe-to-toe in a pair of $4 plastic sandals?
YOU DON'T PAY MY $15!! YOU CAN NOT TELL ME HOW TO PLAY! I DO WHUT I WAN!!!
jaysgsl wrote:
Bet you didn't think of stuff like that, because you are OBVIOUSLY DPS minded to think this would work.
When I first dinged 85 in blues and greens, I was able to keep groups alive without going OOM. If the gear isn't increasing, the bosses aren't going to be hitting harder, meaning that I've reached my 'ceiling' right upon dinging as far as healing is concerned.
Edited, Jun 15th 2011 2:31pm by jaysgsl
When I first dinged 85 in blues and greens, I was able to keep groups alive without going OOM. If the gear isn't increasing, the bosses aren't going to be hitting harder, meaning that I've reached my 'ceiling' right upon dinging as far as healing is concerned.
Edited, Jun 15th 2011 2:31pm by jaysgsl
The CURRENT raiding/heroics are for good players only, this is a fact now. Have nothing to do with gears if they didn't jump HP/damages from bosses or adds. Look at the players complaining (including myself).
Mazra wrote:
RAWDEAL wrote:
My main are Tanks, and I am an average players. Currently I can't raid some because of lack of knowledge or skills. I play on RP servers and got a lot of gears that I can't use for no reason.
I get that you're French, but come on, man, you're killing me here.
I'll ignore the double negative, the incorrect plural of 'gear' and the borderline schizophrenic plural of yourself
But aren't you Canadian? 
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Ok by the sounds of it..I can run around as a naked orc with a battle-axe and kill everything in my path as I level up and hit 85 and only progress if I have the skill? Ok then...well lets throw physics and what little reality this fantasy mmo had!
1st problem: If gear didn't matter then how could a naked orc defeat say Arthas with a rag tag bunch of friends in just his briefs and a rusty axe? I'm sure Arthas would just scoff and slap you silly. Gear does matter, a lot of it is forged or made better which thus makes it magical or enhanced. Have you not played D&D? If I found a sword of great power that weakened my enemies with each swing and healed myself I think that would be a much better tool to defeat a powerful mage with rather than a rusty-axe or club on just sheer skill. There is also lore behind a lot of the gear such as Frostmourne (Arthas's/Lich King's sword). So it explains why it is powerful, and also why it is dangerous.
2nd: Ok say you did want rp possible again, well then you got a lot of "He say, she say." nonsense with the use of your imagination and said "skill". Because lets face it, I could stand on my high spot and nuke every warrior, paladin, rogue, enhancement shammy that came my way as a mage spamming arcane blast or pyroblast all day. Then you would have the issue of classes being OP. (WAIT YOU STILL DO!)
3rd: Who RP's on RP servers anyways? If you want to RP go play Neverwinter Nights or go play DDO, or hell EQ2 or something that possibly even may support it. Have you been to Goldshire lately on an RP server?
4th: Obvious troll is trolling
5th and final: If blizzard on the 3.33333 (repeating of course) percent chance decided to even go with this idea. Everyone would unsubscribe and go play Rift or FFXIV, DDO, or whatever. Because if everyone is a cookie cut carbon copy of each other with a slight few differences in main abilities or playing styles, who would play this game? You? Well then by all means give blizzard your 15 bucks a month and run around an empty world spamming trade for a group for BWD, cause nobody will be on to listen to you. I'll sit around playing Rift or DDO, hell I'd even frustrate myself with my horrible skills at SCII rather than sit there and play a cookie cutter game where gear doesn't matter.
/rantoff
http://youtu.be/T3n0vBcW5fc You asked for it...
1st problem: If gear didn't matter then how could a naked orc defeat say Arthas with a rag tag bunch of friends in just his briefs and a rusty axe? I'm sure Arthas would just scoff and slap you silly. Gear does matter, a lot of it is forged or made better which thus makes it magical or enhanced. Have you not played D&D? If I found a sword of great power that weakened my enemies with each swing and healed myself I think that would be a much better tool to defeat a powerful mage with rather than a rusty-axe or club on just sheer skill. There is also lore behind a lot of the gear such as Frostmourne (Arthas's/Lich King's sword). So it explains why it is powerful, and also why it is dangerous.
2nd: Ok say you did want rp possible again, well then you got a lot of "He say, she say." nonsense with the use of your imagination and said "skill". Because lets face it, I could stand on my high spot and nuke every warrior, paladin, rogue, enhancement shammy that came my way as a mage spamming arcane blast or pyroblast all day. Then you would have the issue of classes being OP. (WAIT YOU STILL DO!)
3rd: Who RP's on RP servers anyways? If you want to RP go play Neverwinter Nights or go play DDO, or hell EQ2 or something that possibly even may support it. Have you been to Goldshire lately on an RP server?
4th: Obvious troll is trolling
5th and final: If blizzard on the 3.33333 (repeating of course) percent chance decided to even go with this idea. Everyone would unsubscribe and go play Rift or FFXIV, DDO, or whatever. Because if everyone is a cookie cut carbon copy of each other with a slight few differences in main abilities or playing styles, who would play this game? You? Well then by all means give blizzard your 15 bucks a month and run around an empty world spamming trade for a group for BWD, cause nobody will be on to listen to you. I'll sit around playing Rift or DDO, hell I'd even frustrate myself with my horrible skills at SCII rather than sit there and play a cookie cutter game where gear doesn't matter.
/rantoff
http://youtu.be/T3n0vBcW5fc You asked for it...
RAWDEAL wrote:
Currently I can't raid some because of lack of knowledge or skills.
That about sums it up. How will your solution help you then. You say it's all based on skill anyway, which you openly admit you lack. Instead of being lazy watch a boss video or read a strat, don't sit around and blame your problems on gear and Blizz being unfair to you.
We're already kind of there.
Gear has been more accessible and less necessary for progression in recent expansions then before. Meaning there's more room for skill to shine even for those who are late to the end-game. Why should we get rid of gear if you can just make it easy to get? The way it is now you've eroded some of the gear-based advantage and the hamsters still get their pellets.
As for the rest of it, I tried to follow the conversation, but I have no idea WTF Raw is saying.
Gear has been more accessible and less necessary for progression in recent expansions then before. Meaning there's more room for skill to shine even for those who are late to the end-game. Why should we get rid of gear if you can just make it easy to get? The way it is now you've eroded some of the gear-based advantage and the hamsters still get their pellets.
As for the rest of it, I tried to follow the conversation, but I have no idea WTF Raw is saying.
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
Mazra wrote:
But aren't you Canadian?
CaptinXeith wrote:
RAWDEAL wrote:
Currently I can't raid some because of lack of knowledge or skills.
That about sums it up. How will your solution help you then. You say it's all based on skill anyway, which you openly admit you lack. Instead of being lazy watch a boss video or read a strat, don't sit around and blame your problems on gear and Blizz being unfair to you.
Again, CURRENT (did you get it? current?) Heroics and raids are based on skills, gears/boss/adds are inflated for no other reason to get you grind. Players fail on cc/mechanics/interrupt/CD. The proof is when you learn a fight is 10x easier with the same gears.
Raw, did you get slapped in the face by some mollusk you were trying to consume? Your grammar has gone down further than normal in quality, to indescribable levels of illiteracy.
Point is, removing the importance of gear would remove subscribers. A GOOD chunk of raiders need the physical upgrades to have a 'reason' to go on. If we all wanted an interactive storybook, we'd buy a leapfrog.
So, leap, frog, leap.
Point is, removing the importance of gear would remove subscribers. A GOOD chunk of raiders need the physical upgrades to have a 'reason' to go on. If we all wanted an interactive storybook, we'd buy a leapfrog.
So, leap, frog, leap.
jaysgsl wrote:
Raw, did you get slapped in the face by some mollusk you were trying to consume? Your grammar has gone down further than normal in quality, to indescribable levels of illiteracy.
So, if you claim it takes skill currently to be able to do heroic raids, then isn't what you're suggesting, already in place? If you are skilled enough to do heroic raids then gear shouldn't matter to you so then what would be the point of your suggestion? Raids offer mounts, titles, cool looking swords, gold, etc... PVP offers mounts, titles, and tabards. Pets are easy to acquire. So really, how is your suggestion different from what's already in place?
I'm not ignoring the fact you said "no stats." I just don't feel a need to mention it since it appears you have to skill without the gear to do it already.
I'm not ignoring the fact you said "no stats." I just don't feel a need to mention it since it appears you have to skill without the gear to do it already.
Quote:
Hard to do long post, I would need to care more and have my spell-check to spell-check.
RAW, didn't you sell your accounts and post that you were quitting? If you don't care enough to post something readable and can't be bothered to spell check, what are you doing? Just trolling?
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
I imagine how easy it would be to rule said land with an IRON FIST!
jaysgsl wrote:
I imagine how easy it would be to rule said land with an IRON FIST!
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
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