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#52 Jun 12 2011 at 2:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I just payed 2300 dollars for a plane ticket... for ME.
If those radiation machines saved THEM money, that saved ME money. I wouldn't want to see another 1-5% tacked on to my ticket for the more expensive 'safe' machine.
#53 Jun 12 2011 at 3:18 AM Rating: Good
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Considering the fact that you are traveling 8000 miles, that's not actually expensive. 3.5 miles per dollar. I get about 4 per dollar in my car, and I certainly couldn't drive 8000 miles (ignore obvious water-based issues) in 17 hours.

Plus, afaik, most of TSA's funding (especially where screeners are concerned) comes from federal taxes.
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#54 Jun 12 2011 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
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jaysgsl wrote:
Sweeteners, however, aspartame, splenda, and everything in between, increase the chance of Diabetes, increase weight gain, AND give BRAIN cancer, which is much more troubling than skin cancer.


How does an artificial sweetener increase chances of getting diabetes and gaining weight? I thought the sweeteners were there to prevent those two things?

Anyway, aspartame gives brain cancer, glucitol gives diarrhea and regular sugar gives diabetes. Honestly, no one's a winner in this game.
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#55 Jun 12 2011 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
The problem is that there is no such thing as safe radiation.



False. They've actually done studies proving that exposure to small doses of radiation are in fact beneficial. It is a common misconception that radiation in small doses is harmful. In actuality small doses of radiation stimulate the immune system and result in healthier individuals.

Its the exposure to high doses of radiation that is call for concern.


I'd be careful bringing that point out. Other than as a refutation of the absolute (that ALL radiation is bad) it's currently just a shaky hypothesis. Ethical constraints mean they can only study people that have been irradiated for other reasons, and so while there appears to be an effect they can't really pin down a number on how much this small amount is. Small sample sizes, not under controlled conditions.

As far as safe radiation there's sunlight. While it causes sunburn and cancer in large doses a small amount of UV radiation is necessary for Vitamin D production. People in overcast areas like the Pacific Northwest need to take supplements.

For the record I feel the scanners are a waste of time and money, security theater meant to make people feel safer without actually being effective. My opposition is to blaming the radiation. It promotes a fear of all things nuclear that results in highly toxic coal power plants being viewed as "safer" and holds back improvements such as recycling spent fuel or even safe storage.
#56 Jun 12 2011 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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I can't live my life in fear of every little thing. Keep away from my sugar, caffeine, hamburgers, and beer.
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#57 Jun 12 2011 at 8:33 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
I can't live my life in fear of every little thing. Keep away from my sugar, caffeine, hamburgers, and beer.


This.
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#58 Jun 12 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Yep, we instill too much fear into ourselves. Would I like if it were like the old days where you just walk through the airport, go to your gate, and board? Sure as hell would! Hell, remove the metal detector and let me just ZIP through.
Fear of radiation, fear of being 'fat,' fear of being singled out, fear of a god....
As we add more and more fears to our daily lives, how does this make our lives any better?
Eat real sugar, give a rat's *** about any radiation you come across, and ENJOY.
#59 Jun 12 2011 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

As far as safe radiation there's sunlight. While it causes sunburn and cancer in large doses a small amount of UV radiation is necessary for Vitamin D production. People in overcast areas like the Pacific Northwest need to take supplements.


I didn't write anything to the effect of this, but I was really just thinking about unnecessary, unavoidable radiation. I was using the default amount that nature includes as kinda the base line, and thinking "nothing above that is really safe." And it may be true that small amounts of increased radiation might stimulate the immune system. But the problem remains that we have no clue what kind of ill effects even those small amounts can have in the long run. At the very least, our knowledge is way too low to just assume it's safe. And this isn't a "we know nothing, so assume the bad" scenario. We know that moderate to high radiation is extremely dangerous to organisms. What we need to discover is if there is a true minimum threshold for the danger. We don't really have enough reason to assume there isn't.

Also, regarding artificial sweeteners... My father drinks diet soda because he thinks it tastes better. How absolutely insane is that? It has nothing to do with the low-cal aspect at all. I've never been able to understand it...
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#60 Jun 12 2011 at 12:16 PM Rating: Default
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Point is, whether or not there's an additional .02% chance of 'dying' from a radiation source, people need to JUST NOT WORRY ABOUT IT.
ANYONE who:
Smokes tobacco
Drinks alcohol
Consumes artificial sweeteners

Waives their right, IMO, to complain about being exposed to something that gives them a fraction of a percent of a chance to die.

Edit: I could add the obvious stuff, like does hard drugs, bungee jumps, skydives, etc.

Edited, Jun 12th 2011 12:17pm by jaysgsl
#61 Jun 12 2011 at 12:46 PM Rating: Decent
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There's a massive difference between choosing to do something that's bad for you and having the gov't force you to do it (or be groped by some stranger). They aren't even remotely the same thing--stop pretending they are.

Furthermore, the argument of "They choose to do something unhealthy, so they waive the right to control the influences on their body." isn't logically sound. By that reasoning, we should take all suicide survivors and make them participate in medical testing. They obviously don't care if their body is damaged, so why should we?
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#62 Jun 12 2011 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory wrote:

A. I live in NJ, an hour away from NYC. Most of my town's fire department was at Ground Zero for two+ weeks following the attack, and my mother helped at a soup kitchen there. Some of the people in our town actually commuted to Manhattan for work everyday (though none of them worked in the WTC). Some of the people who died my father knew from childhood. I'm not some foreigner person telling the US to stop whining. I'm an American saying that it doesn't do the memories of the dead justice by giving into the terror the attack was designed to create. The US did exactly what they wanted.


I didn't mean to imply you were not involved. I was replying to other posts by those who weren't from America.

Quote:
B. There have been bomb attempts nonstop since before 9/11 too. That's irrelevant information. The attack just made Americans hyper aware of it. The fact is that the number of successful attempts before then was minimal (if not zero). The same after it. Poor airport security for passengers had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack--it was poor security for airport personnel. These security measures have nothing to do with that--the old technologies were frankly just as good. At the very least, any minor increase in safety these scanners provide isn't even remotely worth the complete loss of human rights.


Please give me a list of significant bombing attempts in the United States prior to 9/11. Because beside the occasional local nut job there have been no significant attempts. There was the first WTC bombing, but any other attempts were few and far between. Since 9/11 there have been a whole slew of attempts.

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In order to justify this kind of invasion of privacy, they'd need to be a hell of a lot better than older security methods. And they aren't. You cited the shoe bomber? Useless here. Underwear bomber? He boarded abroad, and the EU has made it pretty clear that they have no intention of using these methods. Furthermore, his "bomb" was in the form of a powder he stitched into his underwear. I seriously doubt a scanner could pick that up.


I don't disagree with you on this. I am not a fan of the methods of the TSA in any way shape or form. All I'm saying is I understand their paranoia. Understanding the reasons for it and agreeing with it are two very different things. I agree they have gone way too far. We should be taking a look at Israel's airport security. Their methods have been successful for a long time and go nowhere near as extreme as ours have.

Quote:

C. I didn't say there was nothing to worry about. I said that, realistically, we are no more at risk than any other of the powerful western nations. And that's true. There have been more terrorist attacks in European nations in the past decade than there have been in the US. Furthermore, even if the US is a higher risk target than, say, Britain or France, we are WAY larger. That makes each airport a much lower risk target than single airports in those countries.


That logic doesn't really seem accurate. Just because a single airport is theoretically a lower risk target doesn't mean the overall risk of an attack is lower. We're evaluating threats from a baseline of pre-9/11. The fact of the matter is we are far more at risk of a terrorist attack than two decades ago.

In the end, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. Both of us are looking at this from different perspectives. I do agree with some of your points. I agree that the TSA has gone way too far, but I also believe that increased security is needed. Just not necessarily in the form it is today.
#63 Jun 12 2011 at 1:55 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory wrote:
There's a massive difference between choosing to do something that's bad for you and having the gov't force you to do it (or be groped by some stranger). They aren't even remotely the same thing--stop pretending they are.

Furthermore, the argument of "They choose to do something unhealthy, so they waive the right to control the influences on their body." isn't logically sound. By that reasoning, we should take all suicide survivors and make them participate in medical testing. They obviously don't care if their body is damaged, so why should we?

EXACTLY. So, if you CHOOSE to do yourself more harm than a scanner could ever do you, what right do you have to complain about the scanner?
And, yes, there have been a few 'plots foiled' by increased airport security. Every few weeks for a while you'd read about a new person being found with x bomb or y device at an airport, where if we didn't have increased security, they'd have gotten on a plane and gotten to their goal.
The 'Christmas Jihader or whatever is one example, and Jihad Jane.
#64 Jun 12 2011 at 3:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Please give me a list of significant bombing attempts in the United States prior to 9/11. Because beside the occasional local nut job there have been no significant attempts. There was the first WTC bombing, but any other attempts were few and far between. Since 9/11 there have been a whole slew of attempts.
'

It's only significant because it succeeded. If the terrorists had been detained at airport security before they boarded the plane, then no one would be any wiser. Sure, the government might have released some sort of statement, but it wouldn't be remembered in any great detail. The extent of it would be "Man, remember when we stopped those guys trying to hijack planes".
#65 Jun 12 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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jaysgsl wrote:

EXACTLY. So, if you CHOOSE to do yourself more harm than a scanner could ever do you, what right do you have to complain about the scanner?


Because as individuals in a free and open society we have the right to choose what dangers we are exposed to and for what reasons. When the government begins making those decisions for us based on your argument that's a very dangerous precedent.

We live in a country by and for the people. We own the government. We tell the government what is and is not acceptable. Not the other way around.
#66 Jun 12 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Default
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Right, and the industry that runs the airports decided they wanted those scanners. They were given a choice. Small and large business are as much people as you and I.
When you go to an airport, you are visiting their property, and using their client's equipment. I think it's fair to follow their rules.
If a person goes into your house, and sits down to chill and play some video games, who are they to ***** that you have a radioactive Redringbox360 rather than a safe, easy to consume Wii?
#67 Jun 12 2011 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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Has anyone pointed out those scanners put out less radiation than you would be exposed to on a flight between Boston to Los Angeles? And I'm talking about the backscatter x-ray machines, which is the more powerful device used by the TSA. The MWI machines put out less than a cell phone. In fact, its about 10,000 times less than a cell phone. You'd have to go through the backscatter more than a hundred-thousand times in a year before it becomes an issue.

Not something to be so concerned with if you're not a frequent flier.
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#68 Jun 12 2011 at 3:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Right, and the industry that runs the airports decided they wanted those scanners. They were given a choice. Small and large business are as much people as you and I.
When you go to an airport, you are visiting their property, and using their client's equipment. I think it's fair to follow their rules.
If a person goes into your house, and sits down to chill and play some video games, who are they to ***** that you have a radioactive Redringbox360 rather than a safe, easy to consume Wii?


Actually, most airlines absolutely hate these scanners, because they've seen a drop in business since they were implemented. People who are already sketchy on flying are livid about the invasion of privacy, and it's more than enough to keep a decent percent of fliers away.

And airline employees are pissed because of the increased radiation risk (which potentially is a dangerous level for them--the studies checking this have yet to be concluded). As a result of a lawsuit, it was just recently decided that pilots and stewardesses weren't required to go through the same security checks as normal fliers.

TSA isn't a part of the airline industry, it's a gov't agency. They make the rules and the airlines have to accept what they demand.
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#69 Jun 12 2011 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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Has anyone pointed out those scanners put out less radiation than you would be exposed to on a flight between Boston to Los Angeles?


Yes, we've mentioned that. The problem is that we don't yet know the effects of getting radiation in a concentrated burst vs. the same dose over time. And we don't know if there are any higher ill-effects associated with regular exposure to this kinda of radiation, even if a single dose isn't worrisome.

Also, many third-party agencies have determined that the scanners likely put out far more radiation than TSA reports (though still not likely a risky amount, disregarding the possibly long-term problem). There have also been reports of machines malfunctioning and putting out 10x the amount they should (also in concentrated bursts). TSA claims that you'd need to go through a scanner over 1k times a year to reach a risk level of radiation. But if they are putting out more than they claim, and if some are malfunctioning, a frequent flier might actually be at risk. And airport employees/TSA agents that are regularly exposed to radiation might be legitimately at risk.

And most disturbing is the fact that workers are seeing large opposition to them wearing film badges to check their radiation exposure over time. And TSA has so far barred independent labs from testing the machines, to be sure they are safe.
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#70 Jun 12 2011 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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For one thing, those film badges are radioactive (You need radiation to detect radiation, that's why Army Compass /testers are radioactive).
Also, you get 'radiation' from flying in many different ways, including just 'passing through' the radiation' as you fly. We ALWAYS move through radioactive particles, the faster you go, the more dangerous they are.
#71 Jun 12 2011 at 6:28 PM Rating: Good
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If you're using an old CRT monitor just consider this: every time you cast a spell your screen needs to get brighter and thus uses more energy and thus outputs more radiation.

I would like all of the Horde in BGs to take this to heart the next time they try to kill me. You're radiating your face with deadly radiation to kill me. Do yourself a favor and LET ME TAKE YOUR FLAG.

True story.
#72 Jun 12 2011 at 10:42 PM Rating: Good
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But, again, we are talking about specific types of radiation. It's not all the same energy level. Yes, two minutes of flying is theoretically an equal amount of radiation. But you get it in a single, higher-energy, concentrated burst from the scanners. That's one of the objections that already exists to them, and some agencies already feel that it's a problem (though that's contested between organizations).
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#73 Jun 12 2011 at 11:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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People are hardwired to identify threats and respond to them. Stuff we can't respond to well we tend to worry about. Thing is there aren't too many threats in modern society to occupy us. For many people in the more civilized parts of the world there's very little that actually is a threat to your existence. I mean unless you grow up in a particularly bad neighborhood most of us die of things related to old age. There's no marauding armies, no bears or wolfs, police are keeping order for the most part, and modern medicine has at least temporary control over most nasty diseases. Sure there's some random stuff, but it's probably not going to happen to you.

Still, we're wired to worry and radiation is just about a perfect candidate for it. Can't see it, smell it, nothing. So there it is crawling under your skin and having its way with your DNA. It's turning you into a mutant (and not the fun kind with x-ray vision or big metal claws either), and there's nothing you can do about it. Yuk. Thing is, unless your living right next to a power plant or someone drops a bomb, you're not going to get enough radiation to kill you or even significantly shorten your lifespan, unless you're incredibly unlucky. However without any real dangers to worry about, radiation looks pretty spooky.

TL:DR = Everyone worries about radiation until there's a bear mauling them.

Edited, Jun 12th 2011 10:48pm by someproteinguy
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#74 Jun 13 2011 at 12:34 AM Rating: Good
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I have a solution for the anxiety.....
Now, if they told me that my plants answering their cell phones was giving THEM enough radiation to be sterile, I may worry.
#75 Jun 13 2011 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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Now, if they told me that my plants answering their cell phones was giving THEM enough radiation to be sterile, I may worry.


I think you mistyped. And I'm going to blame it on your solution to anxiety.
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#76 Jun 13 2011 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
Quote:
Now, if they told me that my plants answering their cell phones was giving THEM enough radiation to be sterile, I may worry.


I think you mistyped. And I'm going to blame it on your solution to anxiety.


Forget the radiation and sterilizing, I'd be plain worried if plants were answering cell phones. The rest is just icing on the cake.
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