I've seen a lot of nastiness in people in my ~5 years of playing, but the current state of affairs seems to really lend itself to a whole new level of douchebaggery in PUGs these days. Anyone else noticing this? I'm talking in particular about tanks. /commence beating dead horse:
Throughout WoW history, a good tank has always enjoyed a good level of prestige, high in demand, because of course you can't do much without one. Not only do they pretty much get instant queues, but also extra rewards for doing the job. Yes yes, old news...we all know that.
In past years, you had to be (at least if you were intelligent) fairly responsible with your playstyle; if you develop a bad rep on your Realm, you were ******** yourself: nobody would group with you. Enter the cross-realm PUG abilities of today, and a new level of anonominity arises.
In the past few weeks I've been running quite a few ZA/ZG dungeons, trying to gear up some alts. Allow me to list some of the antics I've witnessed, for your enjoyment.
1. A BoE item drops; tank waits until everyone rolls 'Greed' then rolls 'Need'. Shame on us I guess, for not all rolling 'Need' to begin with.
2. Tank runs in to a group of mob, pulls them back to the party, then immediately leaves dungeon.
3. Tank queues up and gets inside, then sits there and does nothing, wasting the time of everyone until the timer allows him to be vote-kicked.
4. My personal favorite: today I queued up on my mage and after a 35 minute wait, got in to ZG. First tank pulls a #3. The dps DK in the group switched to tanking spec and we managed to clear to the first boss before tank number 2 comes along. He runs out of the boss area, grabs the turtle mini-boss (Tor-tun?) and runs back in, grabs boss, and stands in the poison. Group wipes. He laughs. We all rez and run back in, unable to kick #2 tank of course, because we've already kicked the first tank. I guess we were all wondering if this was a one-time prank and hoping that the tank would 'play nice' now. Ok, haha...you had your fun, can we get on with it? Newp, he went and grabbed the turtle again. Not sure what happened after that, because I left the dungeon. An hour of my time completely wasted.
As a side chuckle, that mini-boss Tor-tun takes up the WHOLE little enclave when he enters it. You can't see a damn thing except him when he's inside.
TL;DR Some tanks are truly taking vicious advantage of all the benefits they're enjoying these days. Wondering if we can report them for griefing. Would this even be considered griefing?
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Tanks griefing for amusement.Follow
i haven't witnessed this, though i admit i usually do guild runs when i can, since it eliminates random idiocy. i do see other guild mates though commenting on the state of that tank, or this dps, or that healer. it doesn't seem to be exclusive to one specific role, it seems to be occasionally quite universal.
i wish there was some way to 'rate down' a person in a group who was doing that kind of action. the 'rate down' would have to be done by more then 3 people, and noone would know if someone else was rating someone down no "alayic has chosen to rate down (tank), do you wish to rate them down?" that way someone can't be effected by someone being annoyed or being an *** themself, it would take a majority.
"rate down" may not be the right term, but i'm using alla's formula here. but in some way mark someone down for their actions. the only effect this would have is keep them lower in the queue, or if the level got down far enough, essentially suspend them from the random instance generator for a period of Play time, not actual time.
this is all off the top of my head, and i doubt it would actually have any tangible effect. an asshat is an asshat no matter what you do to them.
Edited, May 28th 2011 12:17pm by Alayic
i wish there was some way to 'rate down' a person in a group who was doing that kind of action. the 'rate down' would have to be done by more then 3 people, and noone would know if someone else was rating someone down no "alayic has chosen to rate down (tank), do you wish to rate them down?" that way someone can't be effected by someone being annoyed or being an *** themself, it would take a majority.
"rate down" may not be the right term, but i'm using alla's formula here. but in some way mark someone down for their actions. the only effect this would have is keep them lower in the queue, or if the level got down far enough, essentially suspend them from the random instance generator for a period of Play time, not actual time.
this is all off the top of my head, and i doubt it would actually have any tangible effect. an asshat is an asshat no matter what you do to them.
Edited, May 28th 2011 12:17pm by Alayic
I'm leveling my first alt, a priest, through mostly instances, bg's and gathering. Anyways, I've done my fair share of instances along the way.
I do take issue with tanks who run in and pull without warning, or chain pull without a heads up, or blame dps for not burning the 8 mobs we're taking on, or blame me for not healing them fast enough. I also feel bad when tanks start going after other players with name calling or whatever.
My solution? I stop healing, let them die a few times, either they drop group or get the idea. I will occasionally whisper other group members to make sure they feel the same way
I find that DK tanks are especially bad at just about most things they do (sub level 85 at least).
However, on the flipside, I've also had great experiences with many players who are leveling an alt and also learning a new class. We laugh, we wipe, we encourage, and at times we re-que up.
Lastly, some people are just jerks to begin with, regardless of class.
I do take issue with tanks who run in and pull without warning, or chain pull without a heads up, or blame dps for not burning the 8 mobs we're taking on, or blame me for not healing them fast enough. I also feel bad when tanks start going after other players with name calling or whatever.
My solution? I stop healing, let them die a few times, either they drop group or get the idea. I will occasionally whisper other group members to make sure they feel the same way
I find that DK tanks are especially bad at just about most things they do (sub level 85 at least).
However, on the flipside, I've also had great experiences with many players who are leveling an alt and also learning a new class. We laugh, we wipe, we encourage, and at times we re-que up.
Lastly, some people are just jerks to begin with, regardless of class.
fuzzynavel wrote:
1. A BoE item drops; tank waits until everyone rolls 'Greed' then rolls 'Need'. Shame on us I guess, for not all rolling 'Need' to begin with.
2. Tank runs in to a group of mob, pulls them back to the party, then immediately leaves dungeon.
3. Tank queues up and gets inside, then sits there and does nothing, wasting the time of everyone until the timer allows him to be vote-kicked.
Don't blame the class, blame the person. Anyone can do these things.
fuzzynavel wrote:
Wondering if we can report them for griefing. Would this even be considered griefing?
One report or even reports from one group probably won't get someone in trouble for asshattery. However, if everyone drops in a report every time it happens, it'll build a case against them pretty quickly.
ACLinjury wrote:
I find that DK tanks are especially bad at just about most things they do (sub level 85 at least).
If that's true, then the people you're running with have issues. I've been casually leveling my DK and I've tanked a number of Wrath dungeons now. If I have people in my group who are competent I don't have any issues at all and everyone has a fine time. One time in Nexus I had another DK in the group as a DPS who liked to lay down DnD and steal aggro off of me. I told him to stop and his response was "But it helps up my DPS!" /facepalm
I'm also an utter noob when it comes to tanking, but thus far it doesn't seem that hard. I only do it for the insta-queues and I haven't decided yet if I'm going to try and tank Cata dungeons.
Edited, May 28th 2011 11:37am by PigtailsOfDoom
So you had a bad string of experiences, it sucks. The dungeon finder is to blame, that is a fact. So if you hate it that much, just don't use it. Find players on your own server who you enjoy playing with and make a habit of it.
The whole crying about the tank thing is getting old. Not that the people here you have dealt with weren't horrible human beings - they were - but simply put: Tanks take a lot of responsibility and their job takes the most knowledge to do the bare minimum. That said, it's probably the easiest job of any player who is actually caring about the group. Threat and interrupts are really all a tank has to do - sometimes not even interrupts. I have absolutely more potential to effect change in my group when I play my Mage than when I play my Protection Paladin or my Holy Priest. Yet, when I tank or heal, few DPS step up to the plate and are able to try as hard, use their heads, and pay attention. I love when they do, but I cannot even expect it any longer because so few people do.
So we start to get fed up with it. While the responsibility for group success is often left in the hands of the tank and healer positions, the fact is it's the DPS who make or break the group because it's no longer about bare minimums. It's about excellence. It's about intelligent choices, alacrity, control, and comfort with your class and abilities. If you, as a DPS, are not making the commitment to these things, then why do you expect a Tank to do this (because it is the bare minimum of his job) and not get frustrated. These frustrations build until they start doing things that appear to be messed up to strangers in a DF PUG.
Let me say, I've never left a group without giving a brief explanation as to why. I give players numerous chances to improve before I vote to kick - and I often try to get them to quit as opposed to even bring it to that by explaining they are not carrying their weight. Many of these fights are meant as healer burns, meaning the fights cannot last more than 2 or 3 minutes. You can "say" that a good healer and tank can survive for longer, but sometimes it's just not true (ZA Last boss Lynx form is a good example.)
Fact is, anyone can make a tank. So all that's left to worry about is knowledge of the dungeons and your class. Try it yourself. It's the easiest job now for 346 and for Raids, the only place tanking is difficult at all right now is in 359s and 372s. But this is like complaining that the bread you buy isn't fresh. Go buy some new bread!
The whole crying about the tank thing is getting old. Not that the people here you have dealt with weren't horrible human beings - they were - but simply put: Tanks take a lot of responsibility and their job takes the most knowledge to do the bare minimum. That said, it's probably the easiest job of any player who is actually caring about the group. Threat and interrupts are really all a tank has to do - sometimes not even interrupts. I have absolutely more potential to effect change in my group when I play my Mage than when I play my Protection Paladin or my Holy Priest. Yet, when I tank or heal, few DPS step up to the plate and are able to try as hard, use their heads, and pay attention. I love when they do, but I cannot even expect it any longer because so few people do.
So we start to get fed up with it. While the responsibility for group success is often left in the hands of the tank and healer positions, the fact is it's the DPS who make or break the group because it's no longer about bare minimums. It's about excellence. It's about intelligent choices, alacrity, control, and comfort with your class and abilities. If you, as a DPS, are not making the commitment to these things, then why do you expect a Tank to do this (because it is the bare minimum of his job) and not get frustrated. These frustrations build until they start doing things that appear to be messed up to strangers in a DF PUG.
Let me say, I've never left a group without giving a brief explanation as to why. I give players numerous chances to improve before I vote to kick - and I often try to get them to quit as opposed to even bring it to that by explaining they are not carrying their weight. Many of these fights are meant as healer burns, meaning the fights cannot last more than 2 or 3 minutes. You can "say" that a good healer and tank can survive for longer, but sometimes it's just not true (ZA Last boss Lynx form is a good example.)
Fact is, anyone can make a tank. So all that's left to worry about is knowledge of the dungeons and your class. Try it yourself. It's the easiest job now for 346 and for Raids, the only place tanking is difficult at all right now is in 359s and 372s. But this is like complaining that the bread you buy isn't fresh. Go buy some new bread!
I've read and agree with most of the replies here. Tank-bashing is old, I'm a baddie for even bringing it up, right? And of course any class can be a douchebag.
As pointed out, maybe it's the recent string of my bad luck with PUGs that has set my teeth on edge and beginning to grind. After all, I've run into all sorts of asshats during PUGs, why am I complaining now, and only about one class?
Today's PUG (example #4) was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, I suppose. While it's true that any class can purposefully sabotage a group for fun...why is it that I tend to place such hope and faith in the tank, assuming he shares my desire to have a successful run.
I guess I'm naive in thinking that the tank is kind of like the hero on a mission, normally the leader who everyone looks up to and takes their cues from. Anyone else purposely messing up in a party would make me get pissy, but when a tank does it, it's like someone has turned my world upside down.
Meh. I'm such a sap.
As pointed out, maybe it's the recent string of my bad luck with PUGs that has set my teeth on edge and beginning to grind. After all, I've run into all sorts of asshats during PUGs, why am I complaining now, and only about one class?
Today's PUG (example #4) was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, I suppose. While it's true that any class can purposefully sabotage a group for fun...why is it that I tend to place such hope and faith in the tank, assuming he shares my desire to have a successful run.
I guess I'm naive in thinking that the tank is kind of like the hero on a mission, normally the leader who everyone looks up to and takes their cues from. Anyone else purposely messing up in a party would make me get pissy, but when a tank does it, it's like someone has turned my world upside down.
Meh. I'm such a sap.
fuzzynavel wrote:
I guess I'm naive in thinking that the tank is kind of like the hero on a mission, normally the leader who everyone looks up to and takes their cues from. Anyone else purposely messing up in a party would make me get pissy, but when a tank does it, it's like someone has turned my world upside down.
This is why I hate tanking for pugs. They all look to me to be competent, and if they play like blind idiots it's a-ok. Tanks are nor more heroic. Tanks are not automatically the leader. Tanks are only one of five, and do not expect them to be more noble than you are.
Except when I'm tanking.
I'm boss.
I'm boss.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
selebrin wrote:
fuzzynavel wrote:
I guess I'm naive in thinking that the tank is kind of like the hero on a mission, normally the leader who everyone looks up to and takes their cues from. Anyone else purposely messing up in a party would make me get pissy, but when a tank does it, it's like someone has turned my world upside down.
This is why I hate tanking for pugs. They all look to me to be competent, and if they play like blind idiots it's a-ok. Tanks are nor more heroic. Tanks are not automatically the leader. Tanks are only one of five, and do not expect them to be more noble than you are.
Uh...what? Of course we expect tanks to be competent. I have blind (and no doubt optimistically stupid) faith that all people in the party are at least competent. Not the best dps? I can overlook that, if you play competently. Healing as best you can, but some die? Hey, you did your best, let's try again. Tank doing his best but lets one mob slip by? We can cover for ya, adapt, overcome. Keeps us on our toes.
But when someone purposely sabotages a group for their own amusement, I take offense to that. Sorry if I haven't made that clear yet.
On the "the tank is just another group member" note, I will mention there's quite a few bosses who, with enough patience, can be beaten with just a healer and tank at a decent skill level. A few (The Red Light Green Light guy in SFK) can be soloed by a VERY decent tank.
The tank and healer really ARE slightly, if only slightly, more important than the DPS, even more so with the mediocre DPS.
The tank and healer really ARE slightly, if only slightly, more important than the DPS, even more so with the mediocre DPS.
#13REDACTED,
Posted: May 28 2011 at 4:52 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) "1. A BoE item drops; tank waits until everyone rolls 'Greed' then rolls 'Need'. Shame on us I guess, for not all rolling 'Need' to begin with."
CrunkJuice7 wrote:
"1. A BoE item drops; tank waits until everyone rolls 'Greed' then rolls 'Need'. Shame on us I guess, for not all rolling 'Need' to begin with."
i would of rolled need to.but seeing as how blizzard kept the trend of taking a steaming dump on melee dps with the new dungeons(my main is a melee dps)i dont really run them anymore.id rather get my epics out of blackwing descent,bastion of twilight,throne of the 4 winds with 9 other people i know arent retarded then face god knows who im gonna find in random lfg
i would of rolled need to.but seeing as how blizzard kept the trend of taking a steaming dump on melee dps with the new dungeons(my main is a melee dps)i dont really run them anymore.id rather get my epics out of blackwing descent,bastion of twilight,throne of the 4 winds with 9 other people i know arent retarded then face god knows who im gonna find in random lfg
I also have a problem with this. Somehow people got this idea that BOE items can't be upgrades. Sure I can find stuff in the AH but not all the time. If it's an upgrade it's an upgrade I don't care if it's BOE or whatever. Also how do you know it wasn't an upgrade and he needed it after everybody greeded because he was busy checking to see if it's an upgrade?
It's amusing coming from EQ and seeing people whine about stuff like this.
fuzzynavel wrote:
But when someone purposely sabotages a group for their own amusement, I take offense to that. Sorry if I haven't made that clear yet.
By your own words you feel much more upset when a tank is a trolling idiot than when another party member is a trolling idiot. This means you're holding tanks to a higher standard than everyone else.
selebrin wrote:
fuzzynavel wrote:
But when someone purposely sabotages a group for their own amusement, I take offense to that. Sorry if I haven't made that clear yet.
By your own words you feel much more upset when a tank is a trolling idiot than when another party member is a trolling idiot. This means you're holding tanks to a higher standard than everyone else.
And I also admitted I'm a sap. So uh...yeah. Guess this is one lady who's watched one too many 'knight in shining armor' movies.
I roll need on BOE items if they're upgrades. I've had some people start up the QQ-a-tron 2000 over it, but I don't give a ****. I'm either tanking or healing, so if they want to kick me then they're welcome to do so.
300g is serious business.
300g is serious business.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
MentalFrog wrote:
CrunkJuice7 wrote:
"1. A BoE item drops; tank waits until everyone rolls 'Greed' then rolls 'Need'. Shame on us I guess, for not all rolling 'Need' to begin with."
i would of rolled need to.but seeing as how blizzard kept the trend of taking a steaming dump on melee dps with the new dungeons(my main is a melee dps)i dont really run them anymore.id rather get my epics out of blackwing descent,bastion of twilight,throne of the 4 winds with 9 other people i know arent retarded then face god knows who im gonna find in random lfg
i would of rolled need to.but seeing as how blizzard kept the trend of taking a steaming dump on melee dps with the new dungeons(my main is a melee dps)i dont really run them anymore.id rather get my epics out of blackwing descent,bastion of twilight,throne of the 4 winds with 9 other people i know arent retarded then face god knows who im gonna find in random lfg
I also have a problem with this. Somehow people got this idea that BOE items can't be upgrades. Sure I can find stuff in the AH but not all the time. If it's an upgrade it's an upgrade I don't care if it's BOE or whatever. Also how do you know it wasn't an upgrade and he needed it after everybody greeded because he was busy checking to see if it's an upgrade?
It's amusing coming from EQ and seeing people whine about stuff like this.
From what I have seen from his other post CrunkJuice is saying he would have rolled need on it to be an asshat rather than for an upgrade.
I have no problem with someone rolling on a BoE for an upgrade, but when it's for a completely different class than the person rolling need they are being a d-bag.
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