·Theme
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- General Discussion
- In 4.2, T11 will be the new T7
In 4.2, T11 will be the new T7Follow
Firelands will be fun, not that I will see it right away as the guilds attendance issues are severe. Also I'm guessing people think they will be be able to skip T11, they are wrong as they will need the gear for Firelands.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
samperor wrote:
It affects me in the way that this totally destroys any sense of accomplishment. That's the whole point. It used to "mean" something if you had some bosses down. Then if you were lucky you were able to do it whenever the next tier came in, but mostly you could do it after about two tiers or maybe more. If you were lucky. Now you're almost guaranteed to down content only one skip away. That's too crazy for me.
I dunno, the whole paying for the dungeon thing, the nerfing of everything and the kitchen sink is just draining me. I loved this game for 4,5 years or more and now it's done :)
I dunno, the whole paying for the dungeon thing, the nerfing of everything and the kitchen sink is just draining me. I loved this game for 4,5 years or more and now it's done :)
Honestly, it seems that it's your sense of superiority that is in danger rather than your sense of accomplishment. It may help to derive your self-worth from other areas of your life, so that you don't measure your accomplishments only by the difficulty (or ease) with which others achieve their own goals.
This thread... I like it.
Seriously, if you are already able to beat content then "dumbing it down" shouldn't affect you, unless you enjoy having a hard(er) time beating the same content every week. They're not nerfing new content, they're nerfing old content. I'm assuming you've already downed some of the bosses, so where's the problem? Your accomplishment was that you downed them before the nerf. Grats. Good luck in Firelands.
You just called every non-raider playing this game an idiot. I know that's likely not what you intended to do, but that's what you did. Considering I don't raid, I feel offended. Especially since (if your 4.5 years is accurate) I've played this game longer than you have and I likely know the game better than you do.
Careful who you label as idiots. Not everyone who doesn't participate in the newest content are mentally impaired. Some of us just don't have the time, or the means, to raid.
samperor wrote:
It affects me in the way that this totally destroys any sense of accomplishment. That's the whole point. It used to "mean" something if you had some bosses down
Seriously, if you are already able to beat content then "dumbing it down" shouldn't affect you, unless you enjoy having a hard(er) time beating the same content every week. They're not nerfing new content, they're nerfing old content. I'm assuming you've already downed some of the bosses, so where's the problem? Your accomplishment was that you downed them before the nerf. Grats. Good luck in Firelands.
samperor wrote:
Idiots will get free tier gear
You just called every non-raider playing this game an idiot. I know that's likely not what you intended to do, but that's what you did. Considering I don't raid, I feel offended. Especially since (if your 4.5 years is accurate) I've played this game longer than you have and I likely know the game better than you do.
Careful who you label as idiots. Not everyone who doesn't participate in the newest content are mentally impaired. Some of us just don't have the time, or the means, to raid.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
I basically agree with the linked article ... guilds will indeed be crushed.
As for the gear conversion and raid nerfing... ROFL seriously, this happens every time a new tier comes out. Stop whining.
I also fully agree with and resemble these comments:
I havent gotten to raid hardly this expansion and spent last Sunday night, due to a surprise vacancy, spending 4 hrs getting stomped by 1 raid boss with my guildies.
Reminds me of this tidbit on Zero fun. (Just replace "football" with "raiding", skip to 0:40, and I think you'll get the idea.) Spot on for my guild's current feelings on raiding atm.
Edited, May 25th 2011 4:07am by Azaza
As for the gear conversion and raid nerfing... ROFL seriously, this happens every time a new tier comes out. Stop whining.
I also fully agree with and resemble these comments:
Lyrailis wrote:
Back when I used to raid, I got tired of praying that people didn't have lag, that people showed up, that people didn't get discouraged every wipe.
I just wanted to log on, get into the raid group, and go kill some *bleeep* and get some kind of tangible reward for my time spent.
I was never one of those people who want to always barely make it by the skin of their teeth, I was never a person who enjoyed the frustration of getting killed repeatedly on a boss, and when a boss finally DID die, it wasn't "YAY, we won!" it was more "Thank GOD that is over with, hope I don't have to do that again".
I just wanted to log on, get into the raid group, and go kill some *bleeep* and get some kind of tangible reward for my time spent.
I was never one of those people who want to always barely make it by the skin of their teeth, I was never a person who enjoyed the frustration of getting killed repeatedly on a boss, and when a boss finally DID die, it wasn't "YAY, we won!" it was more "Thank GOD that is over with, hope I don't have to do that again".
Pigtails wrote:
And how does this affect you? Again, it doesn't. Plus I really doubt that with these nerfs that *anybody* will be able to down T11. That's like people saying back in Wrath that when ToC came out and they made the changes to badges that *anybody* would be able to go into Ulduar and down all the content. It wasn't true then, it isn't going to be true now. Were idiots able to get farther in Ulduar? Sure. But they still weren't able to down Yogg, even with all four keepers. I know for a fact because my guild at the time was pretty casual, but idiot-less and the farthest in Uld we ended up getting was to the General. Of course we only tried Yogg a few times. I'm sure if we had kept at it we could have gotten him down.
I havent gotten to raid hardly this expansion and spent last Sunday night, due to a surprise vacancy, spending 4 hrs getting stomped by 1 raid boss with my guildies.
Reminds me of this tidbit on Zero fun. (Just replace "football" with "raiding", skip to 0:40, and I think you'll get the idea.) Spot on for my guild's current feelings on raiding atm.
Edited, May 25th 2011 4:07am by Azaza
I'm happy for the change, my guild has all bosses down on normal mode and will hopefully have a few heroics down before firelands hits (though people don't seem as motivated for that). One of my alts has 3/6 BWD from tagging along on other guilds raids, most pugs on my server barely manage to kill Magmaw/Halfus. This change hopefully means that there will be more successful pugs going so with that and the JP change I can keep my alts at a reasonable gear level.
It also puts me in mind of my previous guild which very often would get most of the way through a tier but not quite be able to finish it. Whilst it does suck to not be able to complete it in it's original form (though if you got gear from the first firelands bosses it wouldn't be anyway) it gives more incentive for guilds to go back and work on the bosses they couldn't do rather than just moving on to try and get the bosses which drop better loot. If you're going to struggle to down something (current difficulty bosses vs new bosses) most guilds will go for the option that has better loot and has a higher prestige for downing. Once the patch hits the current tier won't have much value in terms of new kills, sure it's nice to have the achievements but most people will be looking at progress in the current tiers.
It also puts me in mind of my previous guild which very often would get most of the way through a tier but not quite be able to finish it. Whilst it does suck to not be able to complete it in it's original form (though if you got gear from the first firelands bosses it wouldn't be anyway) it gives more incentive for guilds to go back and work on the bosses they couldn't do rather than just moving on to try and get the bosses which drop better loot. If you're going to struggle to down something (current difficulty bosses vs new bosses) most guilds will go for the option that has better loot and has a higher prestige for downing. Once the patch hits the current tier won't have much value in terms of new kills, sure it's nice to have the achievements but most people will be looking at progress in the current tiers.
The problem with this, and all of Wrath raiding as well, is that it flattens the game.
There's very little to look forward to and it makes the game feel much smaller. You're either grinding heroics ad naseum to get the new set of JP gear or you're raiding the latest content which can't be too hard because then so many people would be whining about it which leaves a lot of guilds without any sort of challenge in normal mode and heroic mode, regardless of it's name, does not feel heroic at all. Heroic modes feel like a bone to chew on to keep you busy for the most part because they're so incredibly similar to stuff you're wiping the floor with with your crappy geared alt.
Basically my opinion of Blizzards raiding system in WotLK and Cata is that it's a lot like communism, everybody is equal.
Problem is that like communism it's a great idea but doesn't work for **** in the real world.
There's very little to look forward to and it makes the game feel much smaller. You're either grinding heroics ad naseum to get the new set of JP gear or you're raiding the latest content which can't be too hard because then so many people would be whining about it which leaves a lot of guilds without any sort of challenge in normal mode and heroic mode, regardless of it's name, does not feel heroic at all. Heroic modes feel like a bone to chew on to keep you busy for the most part because they're so incredibly similar to stuff you're wiping the floor with with your crappy geared alt.
Basically my opinion of Blizzards raiding system in WotLK and Cata is that it's a lot like communism, everybody is equal.
Problem is that like communism it's a great idea but doesn't work for **** in the real world.
I'm curious as to what they're going to do with points earned in the T11 raids. Are they going to start awarding JP in higher quantities to encourage people to actually run them, or will they just offer a smaller amount of VP or stay the same?
I personally like the idea of smaller amounts of VP.
I personally like the idea of smaller amounts of VP.
I'm betting on it staying the same and the T11 raids will, for all practical purposes, stop to exist once 4.2 launches.
I dunno. If the point drop amount stays the same in the T11 raids, once Firelands comes out I think there's a good chance of PuGs and lesser skilled (or people who now have time that didn't before) raiders continuing with T11 to help them get VP faster for the new shinies. Or people who like raiding better than heroics might still do the older content to help get VP faster as well.
My raid currently runs for four hours on Saturday. We were doing five hours, but now that we have all the bosses except end ones on farm, five hours seems excessive. Especially since we can get the 9 bosses down in 2 hours or so. That gives us a whopping 2 hours to work on progression. Once all 12 bosses are on farm and Firelands hits, I can see a possibility of us continuing to do BoT and BWD at least for the quick VP. There's no cap on the amount of VP you can get from raids, just the VP you get from heroics, and the weekly cap. I'd rather spend 2 hours killing old content, than 7 hours (or more depending on the skill in your group) in heroics.
Plus with the nerfing of T11, we can have DPP again! Woo hoo! DPP = Drunken Pug Party, a Sparkle Magic tradition. It's been hard getting people to run ICC this tier, which honestly I can't say I blame them. If I had spent a year in there, I wouldn't want to see it again either lol.
My raid currently runs for four hours on Saturday. We were doing five hours, but now that we have all the bosses except end ones on farm, five hours seems excessive. Especially since we can get the 9 bosses down in 2 hours or so. That gives us a whopping 2 hours to work on progression. Once all 12 bosses are on farm and Firelands hits, I can see a possibility of us continuing to do BoT and BWD at least for the quick VP. There's no cap on the amount of VP you can get from raids, just the VP you get from heroics, and the weekly cap. I'd rather spend 2 hours killing old content, than 7 hours (or more depending on the skill in your group) in heroics.
Plus with the nerfing of T11, we can have DPP again! Woo hoo! DPP = Drunken Pug Party, a Sparkle Magic tradition. It's been hard getting people to run ICC this tier, which honestly I can't say I blame them. If I had spent a year in there, I wouldn't want to see it again either lol.
With the same I meant as in WotLk, I'm guessing it will now drop JP, stuff you buy with VP will be bought with JP and new valor stuff will be released.
And T11 raids will be dead and gone.
And T11 raids will be dead and gone.
Ah okay. I didn't raid any of the older stuff once 4.01 hit, so I wasn't sure how they handled that. I didn't really raid much at all to be honest. I got a LK kill on Willow at level 80, and that was pretty much it. There were still PuGs that ran ToGC, but I was never able to get them to take me even with the T10 2 piece bonus and full VP/ICC5 man gear. I even had one guy ask me, when I told him I'd done the first boss on heroic with my mage, if I'd bring her instead. -_- I only told him that so he'd let me go on my druid.
Kind of depends on your server I guess but I don't think there were many ToC pugs left on Kazzak once ICC was fully available (aside form heroic ToC to get the trinkets PuGs who only did the first 4 bosses). Nevermind guilds who actually went there.
The only problem I have with this change is that it seems a bit too much to me. Nerfing older content is absolutely fine but just from reading the planned changes I get the feeling raiding T11 successfully won't just become possible for casual guilds but rather boring because to wipe you have to do many many things horribly wrong.
And I agree with Sirfailalot. The key-ring-thing-change doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. As someone on the o-boards put it: "If it ain't broken why fix it?"
And I agree with Sirfailalot. The key-ring-thing-change doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. As someone on the o-boards put it: "If it ain't broken why fix it?"
TherealLogros wrote:
The only problem I have with this change is that it seems a bit too much to me. Nerfing older content is absolutely fine but just from reading the planned changes I get the feeling raiding T11 successfully won't just become possible for casual guilds but rather boring because to wipe you have to do many many things horribly wrong.
And I agree with Sirfailalot. The key-ring-thing-change doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. As someone on the o-boards put it: "If it ain't broken why fix it?"
And I agree with Sirfailalot. The key-ring-thing-change doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. As someone on the o-boards put it: "If it ain't broken why fix it?"
They may be planning for a new button and need the room. I don't really care though...I have bartender and have the keyring off anyway.
You know what? If they dont dumb down so hard like Naxx where you ignored the previous in wotlk and actually make you work your way through raids like tBC (for almost all expansion you HAD to raid T4 before T5 or T6), it might go back to a good pace.
If they make everybody ignore T11 will be pretty dumb. Again. Like WOTLK.
If they make everybody ignore T11 will be pretty dumb. Again. Like WOTLK.
The problem with not ignoring a raid tier is that the 5-man dungeons would have to stay at a tier below the first raid tier in that expansion, effectively halting 5-man progression.
For instance, if we were to not ignore T11 raids, they'd have to keep heroic rewards at ilvl 346. This means that once non-raiders hit a certain gear level, they can no longer progress in the game. No progression means there'd be very little motivation to keep playing, since, if you'll excuse my pocket psychology, we all play to progress in some way.
I completely agree that it's a shame that old raid content fades away. I loved running Naxx back in Wrath (never did run Naxx v.1), it was one of my favorite raids, or dungeons in general. I just don't think disabling progression for non-raiders would lead to a profit in the long run, considering how many casuals (or non-raiders) play this game.
Edit: What I'm trying to say is, basically, that some of us are limited to 5-man dungeons, not because raids are too hard, but because of other things. If you halt the item progression in 5-mans, anyone unable to do more than 5-man dungeons would be "game over" once they are decked in 346 gear. Blizzard would lose a very, very large portion of their subscribers.
Edited, May 25th 2011 3:57pm by Mazra
For instance, if we were to not ignore T11 raids, they'd have to keep heroic rewards at ilvl 346. This means that once non-raiders hit a certain gear level, they can no longer progress in the game. No progression means there'd be very little motivation to keep playing, since, if you'll excuse my pocket psychology, we all play to progress in some way.
I completely agree that it's a shame that old raid content fades away. I loved running Naxx back in Wrath (never did run Naxx v.1), it was one of my favorite raids, or dungeons in general. I just don't think disabling progression for non-raiders would lead to a profit in the long run, considering how many casuals (or non-raiders) play this game.
Edit: What I'm trying to say is, basically, that some of us are limited to 5-man dungeons, not because raids are too hard, but because of other things. If you halt the item progression in 5-mans, anyone unable to do more than 5-man dungeons would be "game over" once they are decked in 346 gear. Blizzard would lose a very, very large portion of their subscribers.
Edited, May 25th 2011 3:57pm by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Mazra wrote:
For instance, if we were to not ignore T11 raids, they'd have to keep heroic rewards at ilvl 346. This means that once non-raiders hit a certain gear level, they can no longer progress in the game. No progression means there'd be very little motivation to keep playing, since, if you'll excuse my pocket psychology, we all play to progress in some way.
People who want to progress generally don't stick around the same half a dozen instances for 2 years while they gradually become easier and easier and give better loot so you're in a tiny minority here.
@Mazra: That would be ilevel 353. :know-it-all:
I think on WoWInsider I read the idea/hope that the entire troll storyline in this expansion will be progressed and ultimately resolved in 5-mans. That would be something really nice IMO.
Edit: typo -.-
Edited, May 25th 2011 10:16am by TherealLogros
I think on WoWInsider I read the idea/hope that the entire troll storyline in this expansion will be progressed and ultimately resolved in 5-mans. That would be something really nice IMO.
Edit: typo -.-
Edited, May 25th 2011 10:16am by TherealLogros
Pro-type: add new post for +1 edits.
Ailitardif wrote:
Pro-type: add new post for +1 edits.
Whoops, that's pro-tip ;)
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
People who want to progress generally don't stick around the same half a dozen instances for 2 years while they gradually become easier and easier and give better loot so you're in a tiny minority here.
Which is why Blizzard has released new 5-mans throughout the game's history, each one bumping the rewards up a tier (or a half). This, however, means that eventually the newly released 5-mans will overtake the first raids in reward quality, which is what Brisin suggested avoiding.
What I'm saying is that you can't avoid outdating old raids without also halting the gear progression in current and future 5-mans. You can release new dungeons, sure, but how many players would want to run a new dungeon that rewards no items of better quality than what the players already have?
Edit: I should mention that I was merely making an observation and a qualified guess of what would happen if Blizzard decided to half item progression in 5-mans.
Edited, May 25th 2011 6:03pm by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Mazra wrote:
The problem with not ignoring a raid tier is that the 5-man dungeons would have to stay at a tier below the first raid tier in that expansion, effectively halting 5-man progression.
For instance, if we were to not ignore T11 raids, they'd have to keep heroic rewards at ilvl 346. This means that once non-raiders hit a certain gear level, they can no longer progress in the game. No progression means there'd be very little motivation to keep playing, since, if you'll excuse my pocket psychology, we all play to progress in some way.
I completely agree that it's a shame that old raid content fades away. I loved running Naxx back in Wrath (never did run Naxx v.1), it was one of my favorite raids, or dungeons in general. I just don't think disabling progression for non-raiders would lead to a profit in the long run, considering how many casuals (or non-raiders) play this game.
Edit: What I'm trying to say is, basically, that some of us are limited to 5-man dungeons, not because raids are too hard, but because of other things. If you halt the item progression in 5-mans, anyone unable to do more than 5-man dungeons would be "game over" once they are decked in 346 gear. Blizzard would lose a very, very large portion of their subscribers.
Edited, May 25th 2011 3:57pm by Mazra
For instance, if we were to not ignore T11 raids, they'd have to keep heroic rewards at ilvl 346. This means that once non-raiders hit a certain gear level, they can no longer progress in the game. No progression means there'd be very little motivation to keep playing, since, if you'll excuse my pocket psychology, we all play to progress in some way.
I completely agree that it's a shame that old raid content fades away. I loved running Naxx back in Wrath (never did run Naxx v.1), it was one of my favorite raids, or dungeons in general. I just don't think disabling progression for non-raiders would lead to a profit in the long run, considering how many casuals (or non-raiders) play this game.
Edit: What I'm trying to say is, basically, that some of us are limited to 5-man dungeons, not because raids are too hard, but because of other things. If you halt the item progression in 5-mans, anyone unable to do more than 5-man dungeons would be "game over" once they are decked in 346 gear. Blizzard would lose a very, very large portion of their subscribers.
Edited, May 25th 2011 3:57pm by Mazra
Well, if they keep releasing 5 man that are kinda in the middle, you can have a progression in 5 mans too.
Meaning, you will have regulars for new people or people leveling, original heroics + t11, new heroics + t11, t12...
The new heroics have gear that are worse than t11, but better than heroics. Still, some fights there are harder than some t11 bosses. If you are full gear with heroics + t11 with JP and throw some gear from new heroics, you should be ready for t12, for example. You will have progression in heroics and still be able to do raid if you want to, and not fail because of gear.
And this is only possible because the new heroic is separated in the LFG from the original heroics, wich is the huge difference from progression in heroics in wotlk and right now. You have to have a minimum ilevel to get there and, although it can be abused, its some kind of progression.
Brisin wrote:
Well, if they keep releasing 5 man that are kinda in the middle, you can have a progression in 5 mans too.
Meaning, you will have regulars for new people or people leveling, original heroics + t11, new heroics + t11, t12...
The new heroics have gear that are worse than t11, but better than heroics. Still, some fights there are harder than some t11 bosses. If you are full gear with heroics + t11 with JP and throw some gear from new heroics, you should be ready for t12, for example. You will have progression in heroics and still be able to do raid if you want to, and not fail because of gear.
Meaning, you will have regulars for new people or people leveling, original heroics + t11, new heroics + t11, t12...
The new heroics have gear that are worse than t11, but better than heroics. Still, some fights there are harder than some t11 bosses. If you are full gear with heroics + t11 with JP and throw some gear from new heroics, you should be ready for t12, for example. You will have progression in heroics and still be able to do raid if you want to, and not fail because of gear.
But then people would be forced to run 10-man raids in order to progress in 5-man dungeons. That would make the need for 5-man progression pointless. The entire idea is that some people don't raid, regardless of the content difficulty, and their only way to progress is through 5-mans.
Aethien says it's a minority of players and that they're sh*t out of luck. I say it's not a minority of players and that being sh*t out of luck isn't a viable solution to a problem. Again, I'm just making an observation, I personally don't care. I'm all but done with the game, anyway.
Edited, May 27th 2011 12:10am by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Mazra wrote:
Brisin wrote:
Well, if they keep releasing 5 man that are kinda in the middle, you can have a progression in 5 mans too.
Meaning, you will have regulars for new people or people leveling, original heroics + t11, new heroics + t11, t12...
The new heroics have gear that are worse than t11, but better than heroics. Still, some fights there are harder than some t11 bosses. If you are full gear with heroics + t11 with JP and throw some gear from new heroics, you should be ready for t12, for example. You will have progression in heroics and still be able to do raid if you want to, and not fail because of gear.
Meaning, you will have regulars for new people or people leveling, original heroics + t11, new heroics + t11, t12...
The new heroics have gear that are worse than t11, but better than heroics. Still, some fights there are harder than some t11 bosses. If you are full gear with heroics + t11 with JP and throw some gear from new heroics, you should be ready for t12, for example. You will have progression in heroics and still be able to do raid if you want to, and not fail because of gear.
But then people would be forced to run 10-man raids in order to progress in 5-man dungeons. That would make the need for 5-man progression pointless. The entire idea is that some people don't raid, regardless of the content difficulty, and their only way to progress is through 5-mans.
Aethien says it's a minority of players and that they're sh*t out of luck. I say it's not a minority of players and that being sh*t out of luck isn't a viable solution to a problem. Again, I'm just making an observation, I personally don't care. I'm all but done with the game, anyway.
I dont see why they would be forced to run the 10 man. The way they did right now and, hopefully, will keep doing, you will have those options once t12 comes:
1 - You already cleared t11 and will jump right to t12. (heroics are meaningless, you can get all your VP from raids anyway)
2 - You didnt cleared t11 but has gear to go to t12 and dont really care about clearing. (new heroics will give JP/VP to T11 gear you may need to jump to t12 and not fail)
3 - You didnt cleared t11, have some bosses under your belt, but want to clear the others. (new heroics are important for gear progression and for T12 VP gear that you might need to overgear a content to clear it)
4 - You didnt cleared t11, you never cared about clearing it and you dont care about clearing raids, only if you can safely pug 2 or 3 bosses (you have the new heroics, they will give VP to get some T12 and you might be able to pug some early bosses on T11 since they are easier)
I think it's the best solution they came up so far. They will probably have to release 2 new heroics during T12, with ilevel between T11 and T12, wich means people will be able to ignore T11 raid. But that isnt entirely bad, since once they release T13 you wont be able to ignore T12. It will be a progression, people wont need to run every heroic/raid, but they wont be able to get to 85 and jump to the newest heroic/raid.
I think it's fair. But who knows if Blizzard will do like that or will change things in the middle of the expansion like they always do...
Edited, May 25th 2011 1:20pm by Brisin
I misread your previous post then, sorry. I thought you meant that players would go from heroic to raid and back to heroic, etc.
Hmm, yeah, I think I like your idea (or whoever's it was). Essentially, it means people have to do all the content in order to reach the end-game content. Sort of like leveling.
Hmm, yeah, I think I like your idea (or whoever's it was). Essentially, it means people have to do all the content in order to reach the end-game content. Sort of like leveling.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Recent Visitors: 373
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (373)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- General Discussion
- In 4.2, T11 will be the new T7
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC