My 85 druid officially has ilevel 340 gear. One 308, two 325, and everything else 333 or better. I healed on him a lot in WoLK and am experienced healing other toons as well. I can heal regulars just fine, but had disasterous fails in my first two heroic atempts (LFG PuGs). I keep 3 lifeblooms on the tank, then tend to alternate "regrowth" (I think it's called, the green leaf) and nourish, plus heal the dps and myself else as needed. I've read up on stats and gear. Am I just incompetent, need better gear, the two groups were awful, or is druid healing just that broken?
My 83 holy/shadow priest seems to blow the druid away as far as healing goes. Maybe I just know the instances better or the groups better this second time through? Anway, I'm thinking he might be my actual healer. Plus, what the &*%!@#% is the deal where you can't craft any leather healing gear? That sucks. I'm guessing that I'll be able to do much better crafting some healing gear for the priest through tailoring than I could for the druid through LW (been too lazy to look it up).
I have tanking gear for my druid that's about the same level as his healing gear, maybe a little bit better, and I am an experienced tank. It's not my favorite job, but I can do it. (Hate tanking for pugs, but will tank for friends np.) My small friend/family group has elected me to start being the guild main tank soon (that was my job in BC). I have an 80 warrior, pally, and DK. In the past I found druid tanking to be the most limited of them all, and I hear bear dps is about to be severely nerfed. (So much for my reign of terror on the BG with him, and so much for his outrageous leather farming - eight level 84 beasts at a time if I can grab that many.)
Here are my actual questions:
1) Is druid healing really that broken, or am I just that bad at it?
2) Is priest healing really that muich better than druid healing, or am I just that much better at holy priest than I am at resto druid? (Also, how/where do shammy and pally rank in Cata? I liked healing my shammy best in WoLK but have read shammy healing is broken in Cata too. Have never tried pally healing.)
2) If I am displeased with bear tanking (about to start trials this weekend when I have some uninterrupted time), what is the best tanking class in Cata so far? I can level up the warrior, DK, or pally pretty fast, and my blacksmithing is almost maxxed out.
Thanks for the help and advice. I have been a reader and occasional poster (lost track of my original ID) since late Vanilla, and you guys have always given good info.
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Tanking and Healing Questions for CataFollow
Hi Labiarinth. My main is a Protection Paladin. From what I can see in random heroics druid heals are quite rare and it would be fair to assume that is in part due to how much harder it is to effectively heal with the class. Of course this can be said of any class if the player is no good but currently I would have them as my last pick of the healing classes. The three other classes dont seem that bad although I remember Bodhi posting something about how currently, druids and shamans are not being very highly represented in the high end raiding guilds. Holy Paladins have managed to keep their strong tank based healing while picking up some more aoe healing too.
If you're looking at tanking with another class until you overgear heroics you are always going to be squishy. With just about all heroic/rep gear or better and a healer I can trust I am confident in my abilities to maintain aggro on large heroic trash packs (re 4-6 mobs) and not get squished into a pulp in the process. Our mastery (+ block rating %) gives us a great boost to more physical mitigation. Mazra constantly posts about the differences between bears and protadins. He is a druid lover at heart but even he can't deny that Paladins are a fun class to tank with.
I am a big supporter of play whatever class you want (I played lolRet in BC when we had a terribad talent tree, monster threat problems, no mana regen and really bad itemization =P). You pay your monthly fee so do whatever you want. If you like the challenge of healing with one class when you can do it with ease on another than go for it. If you're already at your wits end it might be time to put the Druid on hold until some much needed buffs and try healing or tanking with something else.
Labiarinth wrote:
Am I just incompetent, need better gear, the two groups were awful, or is druid healing just that broken?
Can't speak from experience but perhaps one of these threads may help.
Druid & Shaman Healing
or
Bets on how long it takes them to rebalance healing!
Both include lengthy discussions regarding both healing and tanking.
Druid & Shaman Healing
or
Bets on how long it takes them to rebalance healing!
Both include lengthy discussions regarding both healing and tanking.
Something is different. Something is wrong in this expansion. I just can't put my finger on it....
It seems like there is less information this time around. I don't know what it is. I noticed this because of my many alts. Over the course of Wrath, I leveled 5x 80s. I now realize that Questing is one of the more fun ways to make money. So I go to the various priest forums... Not much there. Then I checked the druid forums.... Not much there. (I'm not just checking Alla - I'm going all over the place)
It seemed like during wrath the answers were very straight forward. It seems like now, the player base hasn't figured out what's the optimal way of doing things. Even EJ seems to be slower or less informed than it was during Wrath.
I'm just commenting from an outside stand point. I'm not a druid healer (Cat), but it seems like there's a lot less numbers... Back in Wrath (and I forget the exact numbers, so don't nit-pick the examples) it seemed like you needed 1500 SP and and 20k mana to join a heroic. Or the tank needed 20k HP with Def-Cap.
Those "numbers" were your fail. It seemed like you could say, "Wow, why'd I fail" and the entire group could say, You have 16k HP - you can't tank a heroic yet....
But now-a-days you have this average Item lvl - which is a horribly bad stat. I could gear my tank in 100% healer (Paly) plate and completely fail. Now, i'm not accusing the OP of using DPS gear to Heal, but it does encourage sub-obtimal gearing.
For example, if a fire mage needs needs INT and Crit and my gear is heavy on Hit and Mastery..... Yeah - that Hit is really my #2 stat (For those who don't know INT>HIT>CRIT)... but Mastery isn't all that useful. But if I have a 329 iLvl - I'm good enough...
Again, this is not a hit against the OP - My mage is doing 6k dps in his (according to iLvl) Gear and I've been bounced from 2 groups. Part of it is that I'm learning Fire Spec, but that's not the whole problem....
It seems like there is less information this time around. I don't know what it is. I noticed this because of my many alts. Over the course of Wrath, I leveled 5x 80s. I now realize that Questing is one of the more fun ways to make money. So I go to the various priest forums... Not much there. Then I checked the druid forums.... Not much there. (I'm not just checking Alla - I'm going all over the place)
It seemed like during wrath the answers were very straight forward. It seems like now, the player base hasn't figured out what's the optimal way of doing things. Even EJ seems to be slower or less informed than it was during Wrath.
I'm just commenting from an outside stand point. I'm not a druid healer (Cat), but it seems like there's a lot less numbers... Back in Wrath (and I forget the exact numbers, so don't nit-pick the examples) it seemed like you needed 1500 SP and and 20k mana to join a heroic. Or the tank needed 20k HP with Def-Cap.
Those "numbers" were your fail. It seemed like you could say, "Wow, why'd I fail" and the entire group could say, You have 16k HP - you can't tank a heroic yet....
But now-a-days you have this average Item lvl - which is a horribly bad stat. I could gear my tank in 100% healer (Paly) plate and completely fail. Now, i'm not accusing the OP of using DPS gear to Heal, but it does encourage sub-obtimal gearing.
For example, if a fire mage needs needs INT and Crit and my gear is heavy on Hit and Mastery..... Yeah - that Hit is really my #2 stat (For those who don't know INT>HIT>CRIT)... but Mastery isn't all that useful. But if I have a 329 iLvl - I'm good enough...
Again, this is not a hit against the OP - My mage is doing 6k dps in his (according to iLvl) Gear and I've been bounced from 2 groups. Part of it is that I'm learning Fire Spec, but that's not the whole problem....
Labiarinth wrote:
My 83 holy/shadow priest seems to blow the druid away as far as healing goes.
Don’t judge by this. Healing at 83 is much easier than healing at 85. That holy priest will hit the same mana wall as your druid presumably has at level 85.
Druid healing is getting a substantial buff in the next patch, which is an indication that yes, it is probably a little substandard at the moment. But I’ve run heroics with druid healers without unusual problems.
Fact is, healing is monumentally harder at the beginning of this expansion than it was at the end of the last expansion. But it still isn’t all that hard IF you are working with other people who know what they’re doing.
There’s a good chance that your two PuG heroic runs failed because of your group, not you. The days when a healer could carry a bunch of random strangers are over.
Start looking around your realm for other competent players to group with. If you’re not in a decent guild, consider looking for one--there are so many advantages these days, and sooner or later you’ll find one whose guild chat you can stand.
Edited, Jan 11th 2011 10:31am by emmitsvenson
Druid is broken, which is why Ghostcrawler is buffing Rejuvenation and Regrowth.
They tried to turn Restoration Druids into Holy Paladins, but forgot that Rome being built on one day is just a figure of speech.
They also messed up some math in their attempted homogenization. Regrowth hit for way less than its mirror spells, and unless talented, was useless for emergency healing. Especially for emergency healing.
Giving Druids Symbiosis as their mastery and then turning the healing style to a more direct heal focus was fail. Every spell, and Nourish in particular, benefits from a HoT being present on the target. With Rejuvenation costing a craptastic amount of mana, one had to rely on Wild Growth being up almost non-stop for any sort of Nourish spot-healing to be effective. If Wild Growth then dropped, so would your mana efficiency, often resulting in OOM situations, or even worse, your throughput, resulting in Tranquility or wipe. Sometimes both.
From what I recall, Rejuvenation is having its cost reduced and Regrowth is getting bumped up to be on par with the mirror spells (Flash Heal, Flash of Light and Healing Surge). In addition, having three or more Rejuvenation active will reduce the cast speed of Nourish to more reasonable levels. Similar to the Tidal Waves talent of Shaman (except theirs is arguably better as it also affects Greater Healing Wave (Healing Touch mirror).
It's a step in the right direction. Even if it meant the death of Omen of Clarity.
They tried to turn Restoration Druids into Holy Paladins, but forgot that Rome being built on one day is just a figure of speech.
They also messed up some math in their attempted homogenization. Regrowth hit for way less than its mirror spells, and unless talented, was useless for emergency healing. Especially for emergency healing.
Giving Druids Symbiosis as their mastery and then turning the healing style to a more direct heal focus was fail. Every spell, and Nourish in particular, benefits from a HoT being present on the target. With Rejuvenation costing a craptastic amount of mana, one had to rely on Wild Growth being up almost non-stop for any sort of Nourish spot-healing to be effective. If Wild Growth then dropped, so would your mana efficiency, often resulting in OOM situations, or even worse, your throughput, resulting in Tranquility or wipe. Sometimes both.
From what I recall, Rejuvenation is having its cost reduced and Regrowth is getting bumped up to be on par with the mirror spells (Flash Heal, Flash of Light and Healing Surge). In addition, having three or more Rejuvenation active will reduce the cast speed of Nourish to more reasonable levels. Similar to the Tidal Waves talent of Shaman (except theirs is arguably better as it also affects Greater Healing Wave (Healing Touch mirror).
It's a step in the right direction. Even if it meant the death of Omen of Clarity.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Labiarinth wrote:
1) Is druid healing really that broken, or am I just that bad at it?
2 questions:
Do you have an armory link? (curious about build, etc. though I imagine things aren't all bad)
Why did the groups fail? (OOM? overwhelmed by damage?)
I'd heard many a tale about how druid healing is a behind on herioc raids, but nothing about us being that far behind on 5-man content. In other words yes we ex-trees are behind, but there's no reason you should be feeling it that bad on herioc content.
Do you have Nature's Bounty? Like Maz mentioned Regrowth is really weak without talent points there, likely not worth the cast time. Regrowth is likely going to be your least mana efficient heal even with talent points, so it's probably best not to rely on it too much.
In general you seem to have the right idea though. Our efficient heals are Lifebloom, Wild Growth, Swiftmend so you'd want to heal with those as much as possible. The next tier is Rejuvination, Nourish and Healing touch (interestingly enough I see Healing Touch as not much less mana efficient than Nourish... does anyone else see the same thing when they use treecalcs?) and finally Regrowth is easily the least efficient healing spell at your disposal.
All things considered though, I suspect you fell victim to bad PuGs.
Edit:
What I'm seeing for healing and mana numbers:
Also, if you are at all interested, there's a preliminary resto sticky here. Horse keeps threatening to add it to the rest of the Druid 403 guide, which I imagine will happen in time.
Edit: more edits for sloppy grammer, spelling, and clarity issues.
Edited, Jan 11th 2011 9:32am by someproteinguy
Edited, Jan 11th 2011 9:34am by someproteinguy
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
Why is Swiftmend lower with Symbiosis?
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Upon further investigation the non-symbiosis number adds in the Efflorescence heal (includes healing done to everyone it hits, n=3 above), and the symbiosis number does not.
Edited, Jan 11th 2011 9:55am by someproteinguy
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
The figure of speech is that Rome wasn't built in a day, so that would actually be accurate.
Two top raiding healers (one a resto druid, one not) posted conflicting reports that druid healing was or wasn't broken, but in either case it wasn't thematically druid healing. Rejuv's cost is coming down, making it an alternate go-to heal for light damage while Wild Growth is on CD, and making it easier to keep HoTs up for Nourish and Symbiosis (Mastery). Omen of Clarity will no longer proc from direct heals, but still has a 4% chance per tick of Lifebloom with 2/2 Malfurion's Gift. That I recall, OoC procs only work with HT and Regrowth.
I haven't seen anything about Regrowth being buffed, but it would certainly be nice. Healing Surge crits heal more than a normal GHW, but Regrowth crits are only about as good as Nourish. The HoT, small as it is, is wasted if you try spamming Regrowth on the tank.
Shaman healing is getting a buff to Chain Heal and an increase to the cost and effectiveness of GHW. Tremor Totem is changing to a 1 min CD usable during Fear/CC, while Mana Tide is getting changed to not work with temporary spirit buffs (ie trinket and weapon procs), but it will benefit from more of your spirit (400% instead of 350%). Deep Healing is getting a buff, but I don't know if it will be enough to make it good.
I would say Druid feels like the worst tanking class to me right now, and the benefits from any of the the other three would depend on your playstyle. I'm leveling a paladin, since I like the idea of using a few GCDs once I have a good threat lead to take some burden off the healer with WoG and Holy Radiance. Also, automatically applying the 20% attack speed and 10% less damage debuff is nice.
Two top raiding healers (one a resto druid, one not) posted conflicting reports that druid healing was or wasn't broken, but in either case it wasn't thematically druid healing. Rejuv's cost is coming down, making it an alternate go-to heal for light damage while Wild Growth is on CD, and making it easier to keep HoTs up for Nourish and Symbiosis (Mastery). Omen of Clarity will no longer proc from direct heals, but still has a 4% chance per tick of Lifebloom with 2/2 Malfurion's Gift. That I recall, OoC procs only work with HT and Regrowth.
I haven't seen anything about Regrowth being buffed, but it would certainly be nice. Healing Surge crits heal more than a normal GHW, but Regrowth crits are only about as good as Nourish. The HoT, small as it is, is wasted if you try spamming Regrowth on the tank.
Shaman healing is getting a buff to Chain Heal and an increase to the cost and effectiveness of GHW. Tremor Totem is changing to a 1 min CD usable during Fear/CC, while Mana Tide is getting changed to not work with temporary spirit buffs (ie trinket and weapon procs), but it will benefit from more of your spirit (400% instead of 350%). Deep Healing is getting a buff, but I don't know if it will be enough to make it good.
I would say Druid feels like the worst tanking class to me right now, and the benefits from any of the the other three would depend on your playstyle. I'm leveling a paladin, since I like the idea of using a few GCDs once I have a good threat lead to take some burden off the healer with WoG and Holy Radiance. Also, automatically applying the 20% attack speed and 10% less damage debuff is nice.
AstarintheDruid wrote:
The figure of speech is that Rome wasn't built in a day, so that would actually be accurate.
Oh, right. Meh, only thing I know about Rome is that it tastes good.
A little local joke from me to you guys.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
I do hope you were being sarcastic Raw.
someproteinguy wrote:
Also, if you are at all interested, there's a preliminary resto sticky here. Horse keeps threatening to add it to the rest of the Druid 403 guide, which I imagine will happen in time.
I'll likely finish it up Wed/Thurs as I wont be studying any more and have the time. Plus all the PTR changes will hopefully have stabilized.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
RAWDEAL wrote:
If I am not perfectly satisfied with a game then there is nothing good about it.
I am not perfectly satisfied with a game.
Therefore there is nothing good about it.
Horsemouth wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Also, if you are at all interested, there's a preliminary resto sticky here. Horse keeps threatening to add it to the rest of the Druid 403 guide, which I imagine will happen in time.
I'll likely finish it up Wed/Thurs as I wont be studying any more and have the time. Plus all the PTR changes will hopefully have stabilized.
No rush though, whenever you're drunk enough is fine.
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
selebrin wrote:
RAWDEAL wrote:
If I am not perfectly satisfied with a game then there is nothing good about it.
I am not perfectly satisfied with a game.
Therefore there is nothing good about it.
huzzah!
if rawdeal starts ranting about the new currencies, look out.
Edited, Jan 11th 2011 3:38pm by axhed
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
I do hope you were being sarcastic Raw.
Borsuk wrote:
Posted by GC. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2053469
Overall good post, but my complaint is the Queue times. The instances are techinically impossible if you can't get a group and actually try them.
Overall good post, but my complaint is the Queue times. The instances are techinically impossible if you can't get a group and actually try them.
Mazra wrote:
Then why the @#%^ is the LFD tool still in the game? Putting a wipe mechanic in a dungeon and calling it fun and challenging is stupid. Maybe if you're running it with guild members who can laugh and shake off a defeat, but spending an hour in Stonecore Heroic, wiping on the first boss, replacing our healer and tank four times in the process... not so much fun and challenging as purely frustrating.bodhisattva wrote:
That being said, while healing is balanced properly, it isn't fun. The classes have been homogenized to the point that differences are purely cosmetic.
Healing.
They didn't properly balance healers at all. First paladins were OP and Priests were the weakest. Then Priests were OP and Paladins got nerfed (Tower of Radiance!) but were still strong. Druids and Shamans are getting some love in the first upcoming patch which is on the PTR's right now.
In the next three months the balance between the healing classes will probably change 4-5 more times.
The same rule applies now as has always applied, level what you enjoy because what is OP or Nerfed changes with each patch.
Edited, Jan 12th 2011 12:44am by bodhisattva
They didn't properly balance healers at all. First paladins were OP and Priests were the weakest. Then Priests were OP and Paladins got nerfed (Tower of Radiance!) but were still strong. Druids and Shamans are getting some love in the first upcoming patch which is on the PTR's right now.
In the next three months the balance between the healing classes will probably change 4-5 more times.
The same rule applies now as has always applied, level what you enjoy because what is OP or Nerfed changes with each patch.
Edited, Jan 12th 2011 12:44am by bodhisattva
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Thanks for the words of advice. The healing spell chart was partiuclarly kind.
I've known all along that the big healing spell (Lifetouch?) is more mana-efficient, unfortunately it is also slow. If there is no CC, or the tank is poorly geared, or the dps is taking dmg, I often don't have time for it. I need to concentrate more on using it when I can, though. Making rejuvenation cheaper will help a LOT. I used it a lot in WoLK, then in Cata it was suddenly too expensive.
I've been able to get away with the nourish/regrowth rotation on the tank in regular instances because my gear is good enough that I don't go oom by the end of any fights. My problem with heroics seemed to be that I couldn't handle the spike damage on the tank quickly enough, but then again after only trying it twice, it could have just been the couple of tanks. I'll give it a shot again after I get another piece of gear or so.
Holy priest healing is still good at 84, easier and better than druid was at the same level. We'll see how it goes.
Any other thoughts on the "best" tanking class?
I've known all along that the big healing spell (Lifetouch?) is more mana-efficient, unfortunately it is also slow. If there is no CC, or the tank is poorly geared, or the dps is taking dmg, I often don't have time for it. I need to concentrate more on using it when I can, though. Making rejuvenation cheaper will help a LOT. I used it a lot in WoLK, then in Cata it was suddenly too expensive.
I've been able to get away with the nourish/regrowth rotation on the tank in regular instances because my gear is good enough that I don't go oom by the end of any fights. My problem with heroics seemed to be that I couldn't handle the spike damage on the tank quickly enough, but then again after only trying it twice, it could have just been the couple of tanks. I'll give it a shot again after I get another piece of gear or so.
Holy priest healing is still good at 84, easier and better than druid was at the same level. We'll see how it goes.
Any other thoughts on the "best" tanking class?
Lifetouch? 
I know some people have issues remembering names and stuff, and I know that not all who play Druid have done so religiously for the last six years, so don't take this the wrong way, but it always makes me raise an eyebrow when people don't know the names of core spells available to their class. Especially classes they currently play.
And I blame my selective eidetic memory. Can't for the life of me remember what I need to do tomorrow, but I remember the name of pretty much every spell/ability in the game, where every key on my keyboard is located and the plot in every movie/book/video game I've watched/read/played in the last ten years or so.
Anyway, the name you're looking for is Healing Touch. Sorry for the derail.
I know some people have issues remembering names and stuff, and I know that not all who play Druid have done so religiously for the last six years, so don't take this the wrong way, but it always makes me raise an eyebrow when people don't know the names of core spells available to their class. Especially classes they currently play.
And I blame my selective eidetic memory. Can't for the life of me remember what I need to do tomorrow, but I remember the name of pretty much every spell/ability in the game, where every key on my keyboard is located and the plot in every movie/book/video game I've watched/read/played in the last ten years or so.
Anyway, the name you're looking for is Healing Touch. Sorry for the derail.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Mazra wrote:
Lifetouch?
I know some people have issues remembering names and stuff, and I know that not all who play Druid have done so religiously for the last six years, so don't take this the wrong way, but it always makes me raise an eyebrow when people don't know the names of core spells available to their class. Especially classes they currently play.
I know some people have issues remembering names and stuff, and I know that not all who play Druid have done so religiously for the last six years, so don't take this the wrong way, but it always makes me raise an eyebrow when people don't know the names of core spells available to their class. Especially classes they currently play.
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Mazra wrote:
Lifetouch?
I know some people have issues remembering names and stuff, and I know that not all who play Druid have done so religiously for the last six years, so don't take this the wrong way, but it always makes me raise an eyebrow when people don't know the names of core spells available to their class. Especially classes they currently play.
I know some people have issues remembering names and stuff, and I know that not all who play Druid have done so religiously for the last six years, so don't take this the wrong way, but it always makes me raise an eyebrow when people don't know the names of core spells available to their class. Especially classes they currently play.
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Mazra wrote:
Lifetouch?
I know some people have issues remembering names and stuff, and I know that not all who play Druid have done so religiously for the last six years, so don't take this the wrong way, but it always makes me raise an eyebrow when people don't know the names of core spells available to their class. Especially classes they currently play.
I know some people have issues remembering names and stuff, and I know that not all who play Druid have done so religiously for the last six years, so don't take this the wrong way, but it always makes me raise an eyebrow when people don't know the names of core spells available to their class. Especially classes they currently play.
Nah, I press 2 3 5 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 2 4 2 1 1 1 2 to make stuff die.
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