I always assumed that the bottlenecking at IB was to give horde time to summon their Icelord (in our battlegroup, SF is always ceded to horde to give us a clear run to FW). The farming creates a huge supply of the turn-in mats and the horde summoning point is very defendable. That said, since the patch I've yet to see Icelord summoned in our battlegroup (30+ AV's).
I agree with other posters - horde's main downfall in AV is lack of defence and lack of strategy/co-ordination. 9 times out of ten, FW is completely undefended and gets capped by 2 players. There are 3 routes to SP (hilltop, under bridge, and main path) - never seen horde try all 3 at once to break up allies defence.
Another point: horde complain that the SP road is a chokepoint - look again.. the main hill overlooking the flag is sloped so attackers can control it and snipe the hell out of defenders around the flag (one of the main reasons to get extended range talents on my hunter).
The only AV losses have been when no-one defended SP (apart from me, but I just got creamed by 20+ horde), and then continued to ignore the attack on base from there on.
Another tactic which threw a winning battle off course was sneaking in the back of Allies base - hardly anyone knows about this tactic it seems (tactic, or exploit? subject for another thread). 1 horde player can cap ally aid station while everyone is fighting at SP.
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- Horde forcing turtles in AV? (Long post warning)
Horde forcing turtles in AV? (Long post warning)Follow
From a Horde point of view:
One of the reasons this is happening is because well... at least in the BG I am in, the general thoughts of the Horde is for a fast game to get honor and get out.
Here is the problem with what is happening. It isn't nessicarly US that is causeing the turtle.
So... ok game is going along from a Horde point of view. Less than 1 min on SH and IW bunkers, alliance is at FW at the shortest. Oh look...... there go the bunkers taken back by the alliance. Go cap them again, oh look... now they have 3-5 people sitting in each bunker to try and make sure we can't get any honor. At that point EVERY time for the past 2 days, at least 20+ Horde then cordinate a recall and procede to turtle.
90% of the time anymore on offence in the BG I am in, Horde get to SP and find at the very least anymore 15-20 people at SP.
I guess this is the main point I want to make, Why is it a question on why Horde is mounting a very strong defense comming up as a question, while at no point was a defense of 15+ at SP out of the norm?
Basicaly it has come down to this and has been said in BG's before the 1 min timer is up in our BG. If they want to be jerks and do what they can to make sure we never cap anything, let's make their lives hell.
At least you can say now, that you have the experience of trying to take a GY for 30 min's and getting no where. Welcome to our side :)
One of the reasons this is happening is because well... at least in the BG I am in, the general thoughts of the Horde is for a fast game to get honor and get out.
Here is the problem with what is happening. It isn't nessicarly US that is causeing the turtle.
So... ok game is going along from a Horde point of view. Less than 1 min on SH and IW bunkers, alliance is at FW at the shortest. Oh look...... there go the bunkers taken back by the alliance. Go cap them again, oh look... now they have 3-5 people sitting in each bunker to try and make sure we can't get any honor. At that point EVERY time for the past 2 days, at least 20+ Horde then cordinate a recall and procede to turtle.
90% of the time anymore on offence in the BG I am in, Horde get to SP and find at the very least anymore 15-20 people at SP.
I guess this is the main point I want to make, Why is it a question on why Horde is mounting a very strong defense comming up as a question, while at no point was a defense of 15+ at SP out of the norm?
Basicaly it has come down to this and has been said in BG's before the 1 min timer is up in our BG. If they want to be jerks and do what they can to make sure we never cap anything, let's make their lives hell.
At least you can say now, that you have the experience of trying to take a GY for 30 min's and getting no where. Welcome to our side :)
You know, they say people turtle these days, but it's honestly NOTHING compared to how it used to be. Here's a screenshot for ya.
http://home.comcast.net/~wyrmryder/WoW/AV07-19-05.jpg
Note the number of HK's people have, this was a head on battle to the death. Notice also that we haven't even entered their base yet, trying to climb through that murderous ramp before their towers. Note also how long the game has been going. THERE is a real "turtle", or as I like to call it, a truely epic battle between the two sides, with the victors slowly crushing the defense and claiming an undeniable victory. (note that this victory only came when the horde side gradually had people afk out and they got down to about 10 people left)
As for complaining about people saying "Just give up and let them win!", I hear those exact same cries when I pug AB or WSG. It's the rallying cry of the loser, and it just makes me fight harder to **** them off.
http://home.comcast.net/~wyrmryder/WoW/AV07-19-05.jpg
Note the number of HK's people have, this was a head on battle to the death. Notice also that we haven't even entered their base yet, trying to climb through that murderous ramp before their towers. Note also how long the game has been going. THERE is a real "turtle", or as I like to call it, a truely epic battle between the two sides, with the victors slowly crushing the defense and claiming an undeniable victory. (note that this victory only came when the horde side gradually had people afk out and they got down to about 10 people left)
As for complaining about people saying "Just give up and let them win!", I hear those exact same cries when I pug AB or WSG. It's the rallying cry of the loser, and it just makes me fight harder to **** them off.
I too used to hate people turtling. (And yeah, I remember how AV used to routinely go on for 5-6 hours, I actually am just finding out its generally 20 minutes or something.) But since I have been pugging alot just for fun, when I go up against a group my group obviously can't defeat (they have 2 caps we have none and they have dominated everyone in the group so far... and whatnot) I issue a turtle for the sole purpose of dragging the game on as long as possible just to **** the other team off and make their honor gain not worth it. (I do also usually have one stealther head to their base to snatch the flag to prevent a full on assault).
dragging a warsong game for 2.5 hrs has become fun for me, unless both sides suck...
dragging a warsong game for 2.5 hrs has become fun for me, unless both sides suck...
I will never enter AV again. This is because I realized that it isn't THAT much better than AB for honor. AV-14 per objective, +56 for killing the general. That's what, around 200-some honor for a game your team actually holds some objectives? Now, AB. Winning is 140, simple as that (14 honor per 330 resources, +20 for winning). Now, ON AVERAGE, 1 AV=2 AB time wise. This means, again on average, that AB is actually MORE efficient for honor than AV. Add this in to the fact that your guarantied that it WILL end (barring some kind of amazing resource swapping for 3 hours where no one controls anything...that'd be so disturbing) and it's a no brainer.
What this means? If your horde (because horde are the ones who can make an argument around winning AB most of the time honestly), STOP QUEUING FOR AV JUST FOR HONOR! For horde, it really is all about the tokens, which means 1 hour game > 3 30 minute games. Let the people who want to win, queue to win.
Sorry for the rant-ish post, but this needed to be said....I'm gonna go copy paste this on the oboards now, while it's still on my mind.
What this means? If your horde (because horde are the ones who can make an argument around winning AB most of the time honestly), STOP QUEUING FOR AV JUST FOR HONOR! For horde, it really is all about the tokens, which means 1 hour game > 3 30 minute games. Let the people who want to win, queue to win.
Sorry for the rant-ish post, but this needed to be said....I'm gonna go copy paste this on the oboards now, while it's still on my mind.
Personally, I normally only play in [horde] PvP premades so my view may be a bit skewed, but here goes.
I very, very, rarely ever see my team turtle on AV, because [hopefully] most of the people know that is is honor-inefficient to do so. My team would normally win our AV matches within about 20 minutes or less (depending on how much the Alliance would turtle at SP GY pretty much). We had our fastest time of 11 or 12 minutes last weekend too, and that included killing the Lts and Commanders. Was pretty amazed by it.
Anyway, back to the issue. I do not know why any team would force a turtle on the other. The way my premade teams work we have about 20 people killing Lts and Commanders and pushing on to take SP GY while we have 2 at each bunker capping/guarding, and a team of 5 stealthies going to take SP AS and the North/South bunkers. Tended to work very well.
As for the AB/AV argument, from what I understand it is only efficient for a team (honor wise) if they win by 5-capping in about 10 minutes or less, that is opposed to winning 15-20 minutes AVs of course.
I very, very, rarely ever see my team turtle on AV, because [hopefully] most of the people know that is is honor-inefficient to do so. My team would normally win our AV matches within about 20 minutes or less (depending on how much the Alliance would turtle at SP GY pretty much). We had our fastest time of 11 or 12 minutes last weekend too, and that included killing the Lts and Commanders. Was pretty amazed by it.
Anyway, back to the issue. I do not know why any team would force a turtle on the other. The way my premade teams work we have about 20 people killing Lts and Commanders and pushing on to take SP GY while we have 2 at each bunker capping/guarding, and a team of 5 stealthies going to take SP AS and the North/South bunkers. Tended to work very well.
As for the AB/AV argument, from what I understand it is only efficient for a team (honor wise) if they win by 5-capping in about 10 minutes or less, that is opposed to winning 15-20 minutes AVs of course.
ilikewomen wrote:
Can all allis just take a look at the av map for a second.....
Horde turtle because we have to to stand a chance. You allis, the path to Stormpike GY is almost impossible to take. You dont need to turtle coz for a massive strip we have to fight our way through bottleneck, after bottleneck after bottleneck.
Horde turtle because we have to to stand a chance. You allis, the path to Stormpike GY is almost impossible to take. You dont need to turtle coz for a massive strip we have to fight our way through bottleneck, after bottleneck after bottleneck.
Anyone who can't see that SPGY is assaultable from 4 different paths is part of the problem.
I mean, feel free to say that the bridge is a horrendous and adavantageous choke, but SPGY isn't the problem.
ilikewomen wrote:
IB is our only hope to stopping you guys. Blizzard really need to even out the AV map, if that was so and it was abit more freeflowing for horde attackers i dont think horde would turtle.
I've seen Horde pull a proper defense in the keep itself, protecting the RH for a full 15 minutes with 10-15 people against our roughly 25-30 people. This was followed by a 5 minute defense in the actual building. Just because people do not take advantage of what Blizzard gives em doesn't mean Blizz needs to fix the map.
The real cause of turtles, in my experience, is too much aggressiveness before SH and SF cap. A five to ten man D at IB(which is good strategy, not a turtle) can kill most of a 30 man O. They will tend to lose when all is said and done, but they will push a good 10-20 back to SPGY. That means that the alliance has anywhere from 20-35 stuck back on D and Horde will not allow them to run past. Getting people to ghostwalk is like pulling teeth, so that means you'll end up with a 25 D 15 O when all is said and done.
The same happens to Horde, but not as frequently. They're usually good about waiting til SH caps before zerging SPGY. If the Alliance has moved as they should, any assault on SPGY pre-SH will get knocked back to FW. That too leads to a turtle.
My solution? While waiting for SF/SH to cap, kill Galv/Balinda, zerg the heck out of some bunkers/towers, assault the next graveyard if defense is extremely light. Otherwise, you need to sit on your hands and wait for the ding.
The horde also has a major chokepoint, the ramp before iceblood, in the cover of the tower, setup a group of ranged DD's with a healer and garantueed, noone passes.
After that the tower is gone and the group gets zerged, they can fall back to FW and stall, after that they can take the towers in Horde base and defend the relief hut for quite some time.
Alliance only have one real point of "choke defense" and that is the first bunker in their own base. Horde has two.
Also keep towers alive if you can, they are often poorly defended after being tagged, especially the tower between IB and FW is usefull in softening up alli's.
SP is really easy to take, its just as open as FW only with less visibility for the defenders, only most horde dont see that but coninue to zerg down the road and get stomped. Dripping in 3 at a time.
If you have 10-15 people who know what to do and a bit of coordinated, a sandwich wins every time. One group under the bridge, one group through "the high road".
And leave a mage on the GY to stall respawns while yer capping. ;)
In my AV's Horde never captures SH, goes straight for SP, make it easier since alli's spawn way behind the horde line, then they are less tempted to make a valiant effort to recap SP. Ressers tend to res people on SP when there are only 10-15 guys and its not capped yet but tagged.
What i do see alli do and horde dont, is that very often alli's leave FW defenseless even before its capped (NEVER happens at SP)if the race is neck at neck thats the main reason why they lose.
Usually horde loses bc they cant cap SP before alli's cap FW bc of stubborn horde not sticking together when assaulting SP. But coming in in groups of 3.
Edited, Dec 27th 2006 11:12am by Sjans
After that the tower is gone and the group gets zerged, they can fall back to FW and stall, after that they can take the towers in Horde base and defend the relief hut for quite some time.
Alliance only have one real point of "choke defense" and that is the first bunker in their own base. Horde has two.
Also keep towers alive if you can, they are often poorly defended after being tagged, especially the tower between IB and FW is usefull in softening up alli's.
SP is really easy to take, its just as open as FW only with less visibility for the defenders, only most horde dont see that but coninue to zerg down the road and get stomped. Dripping in 3 at a time.
If you have 10-15 people who know what to do and a bit of coordinated, a sandwich wins every time. One group under the bridge, one group through "the high road".
And leave a mage on the GY to stall respawns while yer capping. ;)
Quote:
They're usually good about waiting til SH caps before zerging SPGY.
In my AV's Horde never captures SH, goes straight for SP, make it easier since alli's spawn way behind the horde line, then they are less tempted to make a valiant effort to recap SP. Ressers tend to res people on SP when there are only 10-15 guys and its not capped yet but tagged.
What i do see alli do and horde dont, is that very often alli's leave FW defenseless even before its capped (NEVER happens at SP)if the race is neck at neck thats the main reason why they lose.
Usually horde loses bc they cant cap SP before alli's cap FW bc of stubborn horde not sticking together when assaulting SP. But coming in in groups of 3.
Edited, Dec 27th 2006 11:12am by Sjans
25 posts
The problem is on both ends with out a doubt. I can understand Horde having at least some on D ( Though I dont like it :D ) It's just that half the alliance decide they are "D for life!" If they die one time on offence.
Then we have to scream at them for 20 minutes to get there stupid ***** on O.
In the mean time you Hordies have just created your worst nightmare. 25+ Allies at SP and on the bridge.
Ahh well everygame was like this last night.
In the worst one of all one of our allie noobs took SHGY leaving the Horde no forward graveyards. We had been struggling to clear the WM's with like 10 people while our idiot team was playing 25+ on D. We get to Drek and they cap that graveyard. It was unbelievable.
Can you guess what happened? All the hordies swarmed Drek's room. Complete cluster f00k. This was 1 hour into it. I had to leave at that point.....
And now I'll go get some cheese to go with my whine. XD
Edited, Dec 27th 2006 4:25pm by Shogen
Then we have to scream at them for 20 minutes to get there stupid ***** on O.
In the mean time you Hordies have just created your worst nightmare. 25+ Allies at SP and on the bridge.
Ahh well everygame was like this last night.
In the worst one of all one of our allie noobs took SHGY leaving the Horde no forward graveyards. We had been struggling to clear the WM's with like 10 people while our idiot team was playing 25+ on D. We get to Drek and they cap that graveyard. It was unbelievable.
Can you guess what happened? All the hordies swarmed Drek's room. Complete cluster f00k. This was 1 hour into it. I had to leave at that point.....
And now I'll go get some cheese to go with my whine. XD
Edited, Dec 27th 2006 4:25pm by Shogen
All I know is that in my particular battlegroup, 90% of AV's go like this:
-Horde rushes to SH, Allies rush to SP
-Galv goes down, Bal goes down
-Suddenly, there's 25 Allies all guarding SP and the bridge while Iceblood GY/Tower, Frostwolf GY and Tower Point all go down
-Hordies proceed to jump into a HK orgy on the "low road" to SP, despite there being three other routes of attack
-Allies take RH just as we tap SP (*if* we cap SP)
-Hordies bunch on the bridge, some attempt to take towers... but all save for two or three act like they're terrified of going after AS
-Someone yells "they on Drek, hurry do sumthing"
-Game over.
Every once in a while, a newbie Hordie shakes things up by tapping SF before the Allies can cap any other graveyards, and this generally means the game will end up lasting two hours. If they actually manage to cap it I will immediately desert. I have better things to be doing than spending massive amounts of time in a match that will net me ~300 honor at best.
-Horde rushes to SH, Allies rush to SP
-Galv goes down, Bal goes down
-Suddenly, there's 25 Allies all guarding SP and the bridge while Iceblood GY/Tower, Frostwolf GY and Tower Point all go down
-Hordies proceed to jump into a HK orgy on the "low road" to SP, despite there being three other routes of attack
-Allies take RH just as we tap SP (*if* we cap SP)
-Hordies bunch on the bridge, some attempt to take towers... but all save for two or three act like they're terrified of going after AS
-Someone yells "they on Drek, hurry do sumthing"
-Game over.
Every once in a while, a newbie Hordie shakes things up by tapping SF before the Allies can cap any other graveyards, and this generally means the game will end up lasting two hours. If they actually manage to cap it I will immediately desert. I have better things to be doing than spending massive amounts of time in a match that will net me ~300 honor at best.
From a Horde perspective after the past weekend, we are not forcing turtles. They are the effect of:
- An effective, sound, and annoying as **** Alliance tactic
- A horde team hellbent on a win rather than honor
We're left with few options.
Here's how it goes down:
In my BG, the horde are (painfully) aware of the race game. If we want to win, we have to get to the Alliance town as soon as possible. While the Alliance can skip most of our npc's, we have to fight yours. So, the horde races past *everything*. We take no graveyards, we stop for nothing. We need everyone at Van to get through, and to compensate for the inevitable deaths. As such, I refer to this as a Death March tactic. And I loathe it every bit as much as the Alliance subject to it.
The alliance oth can afford to have a few people guard. They stop at Tower Point, and hold that with 2-3 people.
I'm a healer type, and a frequent target. I almost always die on the charge. I try to get past Tower Point a few times, but failing that my options are limited. I can stay in the cave, stay as a ghost, fish...or I can defend. As more people die on the charge, they face the same options I do. I'm not a low-life scum honor farmer, I feel I should be doing something. So, I do.
Ta-dah...turtle.
Believe me, the horde is no more thrilled with this you are. It's a terrible thing to say, but I really don't get what the whoopty-ding-dong is with winning. Marks rot, it's honor that's tough to get. Even when we won the Death Marches, I had significantly less honor. AUGH!
Face it horde, unless you're a well-organized, chat capable pre-made, it's best to get your honor and let the Alliance do their own Death March. I was in several games where, yes we lost, but I walked out with 100 *more* honor than the winning Alliance.
- An effective, sound, and annoying as **** Alliance tactic
- A horde team hellbent on a win rather than honor
We're left with few options.
Here's how it goes down:
In my BG, the horde are (painfully) aware of the race game. If we want to win, we have to get to the Alliance town as soon as possible. While the Alliance can skip most of our npc's, we have to fight yours. So, the horde races past *everything*. We take no graveyards, we stop for nothing. We need everyone at Van to get through, and to compensate for the inevitable deaths. As such, I refer to this as a Death March tactic. And I loathe it every bit as much as the Alliance subject to it.
The alliance oth can afford to have a few people guard. They stop at Tower Point, and hold that with 2-3 people.
I'm a healer type, and a frequent target. I almost always die on the charge. I try to get past Tower Point a few times, but failing that my options are limited. I can stay in the cave, stay as a ghost, fish...or I can defend. As more people die on the charge, they face the same options I do. I'm not a low-life scum honor farmer, I feel I should be doing something. So, I do.
Ta-dah...turtle.
Believe me, the horde is no more thrilled with this you are. It's a terrible thing to say, but I really don't get what the whoopty-ding-dong is with winning. Marks rot, it's honor that's tough to get. Even when we won the Death Marches, I had significantly less honor. AUGH!
Face it horde, unless you're a well-organized, chat capable pre-made, it's best to get your honor and let the Alliance do their own Death March. I was in several games where, yes we lost, but I walked out with 100 *more* honor than the winning Alliance.
Master Shogen wrote:
The problem is on both ends with out a doubt. I can understand Horde having at least some on D ( Though I dont like it :D ) It's just that half the alliance decide they are "D for life!" If they die one time on offence.
Then we have to scream at them for 20 minutes to get there stupid ***** on O.
In the mean time you Hordies have just created your worst nightmare. 25+ Allies at SP and on the bridge.
Ahh well everygame was like this last night.
In the worst one of all one of our allie noobs took SHGY leaving the Horde no forward graveyards. We had been struggling to clear the WM's with like 10 people while our idiot team was playing 25+ on D. We get to Drek and they cap that graveyard. It was unbelievable.
Can you guess what happened? All the hordies swarmed Drek's room. Complete cluster f00k. This was 1 hour into it. I had to leave at that point.....
And now I'll go get some cheese to go with my whine. XD
Edited, Dec 27th 2006 4:25pm by Shogen
Then we have to scream at them for 20 minutes to get there stupid ***** on O.
In the mean time you Hordies have just created your worst nightmare. 25+ Allies at SP and on the bridge.
Ahh well everygame was like this last night.
In the worst one of all one of our allie noobs took SHGY leaving the Horde no forward graveyards. We had been struggling to clear the WM's with like 10 people while our idiot team was playing 25+ on D. We get to Drek and they cap that graveyard. It was unbelievable.
Can you guess what happened? All the hordies swarmed Drek's room. Complete cluster f00k. This was 1 hour into it. I had to leave at that point.....
And now I'll go get some cheese to go with my whine. XD
Edited, Dec 27th 2006 4:25pm by Shogen
Perfect description. It kills me when a fellow-hordie takes IB GY or SF GY and then that makes the Alliance all spawn back at SP GY or SP AS. So aggravating. Some people just do it to annoy us too.
You just gotta love turtles. These days, I don't even bother queueing in AV anymore. Even if the game is over in 15 minutes, it still doesn't feel like a BG with the minimal pvp battles.
But with turtles, you have too much pvp which results in a very long game.
But with turtles, you have too much pvp which results in a very long game.
Quote:
In the worst one of all one of our allie noobs took SHGY leaving the Horde no forward graveyards.
I was in one where the the dumba## noobs didn't defend the GY's or towers after taking them, the 6 people on O got all the way to the Horde relief hut, wiped and ended up back at the cave! In the meantime, I was ghost running to FWGY to raise. I had checked the timer and figured I would get there right after we claimed it; I got there just in time to see an orc take it back. I was so pissed, I'm at the opposite end of the map with no GY. As I'm waiting for a GY to open, I'm hearing all this yelling about afkr's in the cave; they were all hiding in that far corner to your left when you first appear in the cave. Then one guy is fishing for stoneskin eels because AV is the only place he can get them, yeah and I was born yesterday.
I just left an hour long AV, some idiot noob took SHGY back before we could get to IB. I claimed SFGY and guarded it even after the guards showed up, I died twice defending it and it was a good thing I didn't leave; it was the only GY we had besides the cave. The horde steamrolled us and everyone stayed on D except for a few ppl that snuck through the lines. The ones who saw we were not going to win left and the others stood around and whined that O wasn't killing the wm's. In the meantime, the horde have captured all our bunkers and none of them are even trying to take them back! I trinket back and I stealth to the side and wait until the area is clear, I reset the relief hut and pissed the horde off by resetting Van. Needless to say that a lvl 58 Gnome Rogue does not last long against a dozen or so Horde. I reset Van twice before heading south to try and help O, I took back 2 more GY's on the way and before I could get to the Horde keep, we lost.
We all tried to explain to the people who kept taking SH back that it causes bottlenecks and sends the Horde back on our Offense, of course none of us know anything after playing a few hundred AV's. They told us to shut up and do our jobs, funny coming from people who ran to the cave and hid the rest of the battle.
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