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Gold sellers are already selling gold!Follow
Man i can't believe i searched google for World of Warcraft and to my amazement guess what i found on the right hand side: www.cannotlinkto selling cheap WoW gold. WTF?I thought Blizzard was gonna make sure that crap wasn't going to happen like in FFXI. Man thats just sad, its so easy to get money in the game compared to other MMORPGS.
Yeah .. honestly don't worry about it...
I don't see this possibly turning into another FFXI.
In FFXI, all goods were more limited in supply. All rare drops came from one and only one mob that always popped in either a specific location or a specific area. In WoW, many valuable items from from instances (which are unlimited, every player can go after it at once) or just drop from random mobs.
The fact that some very nice drops come from random mobs once in a while means everyone who's out there questing and exping gets a slice of the pie.
I can't imagive who would buy gold in this game - but I guess there are a lot of kids out there with a silver spoon shoved up their *** that would rather just buy the gold... Good for them ... I'm not worried.
Well honestly player auctions is gonna sell gold wherever there is a profit. The catch here is that bliz has been bustng exploiters and thus making the sellers EARN their gold which is not something they like to do, they preferr to get their gold thru hacks and cheats. So basically what you have being sold is gold somone has farmed and thus it is smaller amounts costing more and not effecting the economy nearly as much. As long a bliz stay's on tops of the hacks and cheats and prevents the hackers from farming large quantities they should be fine.
5 posts
I'd have to agree with Kingjord on that one. I mean, it is more important to have good stuff on a PvP server, but it's not like there is only one amazing sword out there and one amazing set of armour. There are plenty! Different types that give different stat bonuses and you can get them in plenty of different ways.
So if someone wants to sell gold, good for them. If someone wants to buy gold....well lets ask them in a few years and see if in hindsight they think it was their wisest move.
Cheers,
Ild
So if someone wants to sell gold, good for them. If someone wants to buy gold....well lets ask them in a few years and see if in hindsight they think it was their wisest move.
Cheers,
Ild
Blizzard can't "make sure people don't sell gold". That's like the government can't "make sure people don't download illegal music". What Blizzard has done is make it mostly pointless to sell gold.
Besides, some of the best gear is bind on loot, only reason why you'd use gold is to buy a mount.
Besides, some of the best gear is bind on loot, only reason why you'd use gold is to buy a mount.
35 posts
It would be really easy to make a new character and have him sell it. I like knowing who is undercutting you because they can't wait there turning even though the item sells like crazy. I am going to slap this one guy. Every time i go to sell my item. He has undercut me. I don't care if everyone is dropping, but one prick doing it just burns me.
Anyways did you see how much they want for 5 gold it's ridiculous. 22 for 5g if anyone would pay that. They would have to be rich little brats.
Anyways did you see how much they want for 5 gold it's ridiculous. 22 for 5g if anyone would pay that. They would have to be rich little brats.
43 posts
See, I dont mind if morons are selling gold to the select breed of inbred idiots why buy it. I simply find out who the seller is, retrieve their email addresses through various means, and register it throughout the world wide web's countless adult, gay, and child **** sites, in hope that someone in the FBI is keeping tabs on this ammoral activity and will show up at the sellers house with a pair of rubber gloves ready to perform a thorough cavity search before the haul him or her off to prison.
Makes me feel so much better.
Cheers.
Edited, Fri Dec 10 14:49:52 2004 by Nataliia
Makes me feel so much better.
Cheers.
Edited, Fri Dec 10 14:49:52 2004 by Nataliia
You do know blizz is working to get rid of the ebay stuff and has already banned the acounts found selling chars.
If you buy the gold, what's the point? People do realize you don't "win" this game? If you have to spend additional r/l money to buy gold so you can be something you obviously aren't, or didn't earn, what's the point? So others think you are cool?
If that's the case, you must think the people selling the gold are gods.
On a somewhat related note, had lunch with some old FFXI friends, guess they changed the AH "fee", it is now based on the value of the item being sold... hmmm.. Sound familiar? Seems like I played another game recently which uses that principle... Squeenix is touting it as a way to "fix" the inflated prices. How original.
If that's the case, you must think the people selling the gold are gods.
On a somewhat related note, had lunch with some old FFXI friends, guess they changed the AH "fee", it is now based on the value of the item being sold... hmmm.. Sound familiar? Seems like I played another game recently which uses that principle... Squeenix is touting it as a way to "fix" the inflated prices. How original.
It seems rather pointless if you ask me. Money, and items arent exactly hard to come by in this game. Plus, the fact that the higher level creatures you kill, the more valuable the loot helps alot.
When I was level 10, I could easily afford the armor and weapons i needed (if they werent already dropped or aquired through a quest) and the same can be said at level 19.
I just dont get it..
When I was level 10, I could easily afford the armor and weapons i needed (if they werent already dropped or aquired through a quest) and the same can be said at level 19.
I just dont get it..
Nataliia: So, in order to combat people doing something that you don't like that is against the Terms of Service but is not illegal, you engage in activities that are illegal, in order to, "put them in their place?"
Yeah, that'll show them... great way to set an example. What are you going to do if you get caught making fraudulent applications to **** sites?
Yeah, that'll show them... great way to set an example. What are you going to do if you get caught making fraudulent applications to **** sites?
They were selling it 2 days after the game came out.
But then blizz found out they were using bots and banned their accounts so in the end they prob lost money ^^
But then blizz found out they were using bots and banned their accounts so in the end they prob lost money ^^
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/
News item dated 12/10/04
Stick that in yer pipe & smoke it ^^
News item dated 12/10/04
Stick that in yer pipe & smoke it ^^
13 posts
Blizzard just posted this
Selling World of Warcraft In-Game Content for Real Money - Block on 12/10/04
It has come to our attention that certain individuals are selling Blizzard's in-game property for cash on auction sites such as eBay and on personal websites. The World of Warcraft Terms of Use clearly state that all of the content in World of Warcraft is the property of Blizzard, and Blizzard does not allow "in game" items to be sold for real money. Accordingly, Blizzard Entertainment will take any and all actions necessary to stop this behavior. Not only do we believe that it is illegal, but it also has the potential to damage the game economy and overall experience for the many thousands of others who play World of Warcraft for fun. In order to promote a fun and fair environment for all our customers, we are actively investigating those individuals who engage in this inappropriate activity and reserve the right to take legal action against these individuals to protect World of Warcraft for all those who "play by the rules." If you are found to be selling in-game property (such as coins, items, or characters), for real money, you will lose your characters and accounts, and Blizzard Entertainment reserves its right to pursue legal action against you as well.
We also want to remind potential buyers in the game to please refrain from buying in-game property with real money. We understand the temptation to purchase better items, but Blizzard, and not the seller, does own all in-game property. In addition, we feel that characters can find ample equipment and money within the game through their own adventuring and questing. Please understand that if you do purchase in-game property from sellers on eBay and personal sites, we may temporarily suspend your account, and at the very least, delete the offending items.
Thank you for understanding our position. Blizzard Entertainment is committed to maintaining the atmosphere of fair play and fun in World of Warcraft.
Excellent
Selling World of Warcraft In-Game Content for Real Money - Block on 12/10/04
It has come to our attention that certain individuals are selling Blizzard's in-game property for cash on auction sites such as eBay and on personal websites. The World of Warcraft Terms of Use clearly state that all of the content in World of Warcraft is the property of Blizzard, and Blizzard does not allow "in game" items to be sold for real money. Accordingly, Blizzard Entertainment will take any and all actions necessary to stop this behavior. Not only do we believe that it is illegal, but it also has the potential to damage the game economy and overall experience for the many thousands of others who play World of Warcraft for fun. In order to promote a fun and fair environment for all our customers, we are actively investigating those individuals who engage in this inappropriate activity and reserve the right to take legal action against these individuals to protect World of Warcraft for all those who "play by the rules." If you are found to be selling in-game property (such as coins, items, or characters), for real money, you will lose your characters and accounts, and Blizzard Entertainment reserves its right to pursue legal action against you as well.
We also want to remind potential buyers in the game to please refrain from buying in-game property with real money. We understand the temptation to purchase better items, but Blizzard, and not the seller, does own all in-game property. In addition, we feel that characters can find ample equipment and money within the game through their own adventuring and questing. Please understand that if you do purchase in-game property from sellers on eBay and personal sites, we may temporarily suspend your account, and at the very least, delete the offending items.
Thank you for understanding our position. Blizzard Entertainment is committed to maintaining the atmosphere of fair play and fun in World of Warcraft.
Excellent
I'm probably going to get flamed and rated down for this but here goes...
These sites will always exist, and also always be able to sell in-game money, although limited in some cases. The reason? You don't buy the money/items from them, you buy the time to get the money/items from them. Sadly the TOS doesn't say you can't send items to other people, which would be the only way to stop this. This is basically the same as getting a friend to either farm for you or something, but you pay them. Untill the game makes it so you can't send/recive items in the game, this will happen.
That being said, take it in stride and realize this:
This will be nothing like FFXI's situation. Blizz has already been baning bots (a big problem in FFXI's situation), and the design of the game prevents monopolizing one item like in FFXI. Also since the good items are bind on acquire they can't sell them on their sites. The money from NPCing them they could... And again, you don't pay for the money, you pay for the time to get the money.
Again, this will never get to FFXI porportions, the design of the game prevents that.
Flame me, rate me down, whatever, you know its true.
These sites will always exist, and also always be able to sell in-game money, although limited in some cases. The reason? You don't buy the money/items from them, you buy the time to get the money/items from them. Sadly the TOS doesn't say you can't send items to other people, which would be the only way to stop this. This is basically the same as getting a friend to either farm for you or something, but you pay them. Untill the game makes it so you can't send/recive items in the game, this will happen.
That being said, take it in stride and realize this:
This will be nothing like FFXI's situation. Blizz has already been baning bots (a big problem in FFXI's situation), and the design of the game prevents monopolizing one item like in FFXI. Also since the good items are bind on acquire they can't sell them on their sites. The money from NPCing them they could... And again, you don't pay for the money, you pay for the time to get the money.
Again, this will never get to FFXI porportions, the design of the game prevents that.
Flame me, rate me down, whatever, you know its true.
Hopefully Tomec comes back and looks at the post above and below his, 'cause:
Sure, people can "send" items to others, but if you see some person sending out 5, 10, 15 gold increments to a bunch of people, it's kind of obvious.
They could use the people they farm with it and sell it, but that will cut down on their selling much, having to run back to town. Yes, it will exist, but very, very minimally.
Edited, Sun Dec 12 06:20:20 2004 by Iantha
Quote:
We understand the temptation to purchase better items, but Blizzard, and not the seller, does own all in-game property.
Sure, people can "send" items to others, but if you see some person sending out 5, 10, 15 gold increments to a bunch of people, it's kind of obvious.
They could use the people they farm with it and sell it, but that will cut down on their selling much, having to run back to town. Yes, it will exist, but very, very minimally.
Edited, Sun Dec 12 06:20:20 2004 by Iantha
True, but the person can just say "I send because I'm feeling generous". You can't do a thing about that without a conceret proof.
This kind of selling will always exists, and the buyers will continue to exists. However it would be minimal thankfully =D
This kind of selling will always exists, and the buyers will continue to exists. However it would be minimal thankfully =D
Quote:
Hopefully Tomec comes back and looks at the post above and below his, 'cause:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We understand the temptation to purchase better items, but Blizzard, and not the seller, does own all in-game property.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, people can "send" items to others, but if you see some person sending out 5, 10, 15 gold increments to a bunch of people, it's kind of obvious.
They could use the people they farm with it and sell it, but that will cut down on their selling much, having to run back to town. Yes, it will exist, but very, very minimally.
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We understand the temptation to purchase better items, but Blizzard, and not the seller, does own all in-game property.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, people can "send" items to others, but if you see some person sending out 5, 10, 15 gold increments to a bunch of people, it's kind of obvious.
They could use the people they farm with it and sell it, but that will cut down on their selling much, having to run back to town. Yes, it will exist, but very, very minimally.
Well yea, that would be kinda obvious. However I think you missed my point. Also, Coldcell got my point, at least I think. I was basically trying to say what he said, but in a different form.
What probably happened is you read too much into the items part of my post...
Also by no means was I trying to defend these sites/people, I actually dispise them. However I know that this type of thing will always go on, and you have to learn to deal with it. Sometimes dealing with it takes a ton of time (like getting that archer's ring in FFXI so you could give it to a friend or something to make a sniper's) but you learn to deal with it.
And finally:
Quote:
but Blizzard, and not the seller, does own all in-game property.
Again, your not buying the "in-game property", your paying someone to farm the "in-game property" for you. Well more precisely, paying someone who is paying other people X amount per hour to make X gold per hour.
This small little loop-hole is what allows these types of sites to exist and do bussiness, and is why nothing any game company can do will put a 100% stop to these.
Again, i'm NOT trying to defend these sites in any way, shape, or form, i'm simply stating the facts and what is on my mind, which is what forums are for.
Quote:
Again, your not buying the "in-game property", your paying someone to farm the "in-game property" for you. Well more precisely, paying someone who is paying other people X amount per hour to make X gold per hour.
This small little loop-hole is what allows these types of sites to exist and do bussiness, and is why nothing any game company can do will put a 100% stop to these.
This small little loop-hole is what allows these types of sites to exist and do bussiness, and is why nothing any game company can do will put a 100% stop to these.
That "loophole" you quote is the justification that these people use. It's also a completely indefensible position legally - they would be laughed out of court moments after losing the judgement. Note that the only "gold-selling" sites and "companies" that continue to exist for longer than a few months at a time are located entirely outside of the United States - that makes it rather harder to smack them with the law.
To rephrase: The defense of, "I'm not selling the item/gold/character, I'm selling the time I took to get it," is not supported by the law in any way. It's just a vaguely legal-sounding doublespeak that baffles people who don't have any legal background.
Don't believe me? Try to tell a judge, "I wasn't paying for the sex, just for her time. The fact that we had sex is irrelevant." See how far that flies.
Edited, Mon Dec 13 04:00:30 2004 by Nekojin
Yea, I know the legal things about it. However like you said, outside the US. I was just saying that that little loophole is what allows sites like these to pop up.
After reading your little edit, I still stand by what I just said.
Edited, Mon Dec 13 04:00:59 2004 by Tomec
After reading your little edit, I still stand by what I just said.
Edited, Mon Dec 13 04:00:59 2004 by Tomec
You're not getting it, Tomec. That "loophole" isn't a loophole. It doesn't exist. It's just doublespeak - words twisted to make it sound good.
Well learn something new each day... Besides I was never trying to say it would hold up in a court. The problem is that these are all oversea companies in places like China and all, which makes it harder to get them shut down.
good to see you over here jord. i always enjoyed reading what you wrote on the rdm forum, even if i didnt always agree with it.
anyways, to address why i posted here....
my impression is that blizzard can track the transactions people make in this game via delivery. now, since it clearly states in the TOS that all in-game things are the property of blizzard, it can then be construed as a bad faith violation of a contract on the part of the person selling gil. in other words, they broke the contract they made with blizzard when they sold the gil. this entitles blizzard to certain legal recourses of action, including using credit reports to determine if said person received some kind of real money transaction suspiciously close to the date/time that the in-game money was sent.
all thats needed in order for blizzard to pursue this is the probable cause that someone did it. in other words, if a person is "just generous" and sends out increments of 5, 10 and 15 gold to seemingly random people, blizzard would be able to use that probable cause (they believe someone is breaking a legal contract they have with blizzard) and then cross reference it with that persons credit report to see if the generous person really is "just generous" or if they have been paid RL money in exchange for the gold.
at least, thats my understanding of how things would work given my knowledge of contractual laws in california.
Edited, Mon Dec 13 05:22:16 2004 by Quor
anyways, to address why i posted here....
Quote:
True, but the person can just say "I send because I'm feeling generous". You can't do a thing about that without a conceret proof.
my impression is that blizzard can track the transactions people make in this game via delivery. now, since it clearly states in the TOS that all in-game things are the property of blizzard, it can then be construed as a bad faith violation of a contract on the part of the person selling gil. in other words, they broke the contract they made with blizzard when they sold the gil. this entitles blizzard to certain legal recourses of action, including using credit reports to determine if said person received some kind of real money transaction suspiciously close to the date/time that the in-game money was sent.
all thats needed in order for blizzard to pursue this is the probable cause that someone did it. in other words, if a person is "just generous" and sends out increments of 5, 10 and 15 gold to seemingly random people, blizzard would be able to use that probable cause (they believe someone is breaking a legal contract they have with blizzard) and then cross reference it with that persons credit report to see if the generous person really is "just generous" or if they have been paid RL money in exchange for the gold.
at least, thats my understanding of how things would work given my knowledge of contractual laws in california.
Edited, Mon Dec 13 05:22:16 2004 by Quor
Scholar
32 posts
Quote:
To rephrase: The defense of, "I'm not selling the item/gold/character, I'm selling the time I took to get it," is not supported by the law in any way. It's just a vaguely legal-sounding doublespeak that baffles people who don't have any legal background.
Don't believe me? Try to tell a judge, "I wasn't paying for the sex, just for her time. The fact that we had sex is irrelevant." See how far that flies.
Don't believe me? Try to tell a judge, "I wasn't paying for the sex, just for her time. The fact that we had sex is irrelevant." See how far that flies.
To play Devil's Advocate:
So, what you're saying is that selling one's time and effort is "legal-sounding doublespeak that baffles people who don't have any legal background?" If that were true, Blizzard could just stop paying their developers. After all, if the all the hardware, software and in-game items belong to Blizzard, what are their developers doing? Blizzard would make loads more money if they just kept their salaries. Their time isn't worth anything. Try selling that to a judge.
...Oh wait, EA Games tried that already. (news.com)
There is a difference between selling the result of one's time and skill, and selling one's time and skill. Both are valuable. Your prostitute example is a poor one beacuse the act of receiving money for sexual services is expressly prohibited by law in many places. The act of receiving money for selling other services, like housecleaning, is not. Just because one act of receiving money for time spent is illegal in one instance doesn't make it true for all acts.
So:
Violation of Terms of Services != Violation of Law (necessarily)
What would be a violation of law is if a gold-seller made tens of thousands IRL off of selling in-game gold and didn't report it to the (insert tax collection agency).
It's still a bit of a grey area if a violation of the TOS necessarily means a breach of contract. There are some recent cases in the U.S. about this issue that suggest that it may become a violation of law. However, as I am not a lawyer, I'd suggest looking elsewhere for clarification on the specific legalities.
Just to clarify: I love playing WoW. I think buying in-game gold does defeat the purpose of the game and, moreover, is unnecessary due to the design and ease of play. The above was an exercise in contrariness.
--
Sureshot, Dwarf Hunter
Aegidis, Dwarf Paladin
Vikeshta, Night Elf Warrior
Edited, Mon Dec 13 13:31:20 2004 by vikeshta
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