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Warning to Players SE is STILL Banning!Follow

#202 Jul 31 2009 at 9:22 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
We appreciate this customer’s concern and can guarantee this matter has been brought to the attention of our management team. The customer is welcome to pursue a ban complaint with proper verification with the PlayOnline Information Center. However, in the end we need to alert this customer that SQUARE ENIX, INC. may suspend, terminate, modify, or delete any PlayOnline account at anytime, with any reason or no reason, with or without notice (PlayOnline Member Agreement, Article 3.2). We apologize that this customer feels like they were treated unfairly in any way. We must make it clear to this customer that there is nothing the BBB or management can do that will result in the reversal of the action taken on this account.

This translates to "Hey, didn't you read our ToS? You as well as customers in your situation are being treated unfairly. All we can say is sorry as an excuse for us to continue treating customers unfairly"

/clap I hope admins add this correspondence.
#203 Jul 31 2009 at 9:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,020 posts
Rant warning: Read at your own risk.

The ToS is meant to be a governing agreement between the company (SE) and the end user of the software (the player). SE, in their infinite wisdom (NOT) has decided to use the relevant section as a CYA clause. What it says in a nutshell is that SE is the final arbiter of all disputes, and that the player basically has no recourse whatsoever.

This is, quite disturbing, to say the least. Not that we haven't known it for a while now. We watched as hundreds got the banhammer for the duping incidents.

We knew the affected were guilty in all but a few cases.

Then comes the chargeback bans. Easy fix, right? Except that the next month, players got banned for--surprise--"irregular credit card activity"

Nothing they can do about that, thanks to that magical clause in the ToS.

Fast forward to a month or two later. Now, we're seeing bans for gardening. Some people, yes, got their accounts reinstated (although whether or not those accounts wrongfully banned were swiftly reinstated remains to be seen) but many, unfortunately, have yet to see justice done.

Now we have the CC verification requirement. Far as can be determined, this is being implemented "for our protection".

What the hell? For our protection? From what?

SE has stated that Securecode/Verified By Visa will add "an extra layer of protection to our accounts". Again, protection from what?

Will it stop RMT? No. Since some prepaid cards are covered under one of the relevant programs (rather, other threads would indicate such), what is there to stop a US person affiliated with an RMT group from sending hundreds of cards offshore to finance an RMT operation? The Patriot Act? No...the sole purpose of the act is to prevent the financing of terrorist organizations, and an RMT outfit hardly qualifies.

Is it a needless hassle? Absolutely. We, as the playerbase, fully expected the SE security token to be the final word in account security. Now this? What more will SE require "for our protection"? Social Security numbers? Privileged information? Our mother's grandmother's maiden name? I could go on ad absurdum, but I think the point is made. In this, is SE tacitly admitting to the thought the token may not be enough?

Furthermore, more and more players are being banned for seemingly random reasons. RMT activity? The entire process is run by a completely automated program, with seemingly no human element involved in the process whatsoever--at least not until after the ban is handed down. Irregular credit card activity? People move, play with one more account, or have a spouse/significant other that (surprise) might want their own account to play with but have a single credit/debit card for the purpose. Also--no big surprise here--people play at work and school as well, all relevant argument as to whether they should be aside.

So, the questions here seem to be these: Why are the bans being done at random? Why are the innocent almost invariably caught in the net? What will SE do to rectify these wrongdoings?

Apparently throw a clause of the ToS at the playerbase that says essentially, "we can do what we want, when we want, we don't have to warn you about it, and there's nothing you can do about it."

An American-based company, perhaps even a EU-based company would be smeared all over the news by the next business day. To say such a declaration would instantly make such a company's name mud is, succinctly put, an understatement. Most companies with such an approach to customer service are generally bankrupt in short order.

Yet, SE is a Japanese company. Never admit fault. Do not accept help from the outside. Save face above all. This is their mantra.

SE, in their headlong to eliminate RMT from the game, seems to forget one small thing: Though their base is in Japan, they are also a multinational corporation, doing business in several countries. A customer service approach that works in Japan may or may not work in another country.

If their current approach to customer service is the same approach the company uses in Japan, it most definitely does not work.

We, as the playerbase, deserve answers. We have faithfully given our money to SE for the game month after month, and we deserve more than to have a blanket clause thrown at us for an answer. "We can do whatever" simply will not cut it for those who have done nothing wrong and are still, to this minute, waiting for justice to be served.

We deserve more than the sterotypical Japanese stonewalling.

We deserve, unequivocally, an answer to the nature of these bannings, a revision of the RMT tracking process that includes human oversight to the findings of the automated programs before the bans are handed down.

In theory, that could work as follows: Automated program detects suspicious activity and sends an email to a member of the STF with the relevant findings documented. The STF then decides, based on the information in that email, whether or not to issue a temp ban. As a extra layer of verification, this triggers a review by a supervisor or higher ranking member, and the player is immediately notified (by standard email, since SE has this information) that their account has been banned, cite the specific reason they are being banned, and notify them their account is being automatically reviewed, allowing for a feedback for the player to state their case.

That being said, SE is drastically failing their playerbase by implementing draconian measures and using the ToS to justify them. The customer may or may not always be right, but one thing is defintely true: without customers, there is no SE. We can choose to put SE out of business, regardless of their size, and we can simply do so by choosing to take our money somewhere else.

Sam Walton said the same thing. Here's the thing: those words are true. Without the money of customers, SE goes bankrupt.

We deserve better, SE. Much better.

Edited, Jul 31st 2009 2:06pm by Magicalsquirrel
#204 Jul 31 2009 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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1,342 posts
bmstreet wrote:
And let the lawsuits commence. I guess that is the only way we can get their attention.


I one of those type of people that thinks that a lot of people are way to sue-happy. However in this case, what else can people do?

Though I doubt that any US law suit will do anything but cost SE some legal fee's.

Edit: Spelling

Edited, Jul 31st 2009 10:28am by spcwill
#205 Jul 31 2009 at 9:42 AM Rating: Excellent
GummybearOdin wrote:
Something really bothers me about this response... If you read closely it says "We must make it clear to this customer that there is nothing the BBB or management can do that will result in the reversal of the action taken on this account." Square Enix of Japan has full control of this situation...


It is obvious to me that they're reading this thread and surprise, surprise are becoming defensive, typical behavior from a manager who is feeling the heat or an office bully of a leader.

The reference to Square Enix Japan is a common tactic of passing the buck to a foreign entity to deter legal action by common perception that cross-border disputes deters legal suit by consumers. However, these days, most judges don't take kindly to such contempt of court.

However, the question is... Are SE's T&C and policies legal in the 1st place? As a poster in another thread pointed out that SE's policy of non-disclosure of a subscriber's own personal information is in fact illegal in UK under the Data Protection Act 1998. Further more, persons suffering distress by such contrevention is entitled to compensation (Data Protection Act (1998) Part II, Section 10.



#206 Jul 31 2009 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
spcwill wrote:
bmstreet wrote:
And let the lawsuits commence. I guess that is the only way we can get their attention.


I one of those type of people that thinks that a lot of people are way to sue-happy. However in this case, what else can people do?

Though I doubt that any US law suit will do anything but cost SE some legal fee's.


Why not ask an actual lawyer. ;D
#207 Jul 31 2009 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,428 posts
Seen this in the tos:

Quote:
If at any time, the current terms are not acceptable to you, you agree to terminate your use of the PlayOnline Service. Your continued use of PlayOnline after SEI posts any change(s) to its terms or to the scope of the PlayOnline Service shall constitute your agreement to and acceptance of all of the changes.

I have not logged in since all this went down, did anyone notice if they had you re-accep0t terms like you do on first install or adding members to the pol login. If not I'm assuming that they payment being processed in its self was an acceptance, but if they want to use the payment as acceptance then it seems to me there should of been a greater notice to allow for people to cancel the acct before reg maintenance was started and locked you out until after being billed.

Although possibly even just logging in to read the news through the pol viewer could be counted as use of the software and again acceptance.

The whole thing just stinks.
#208 Jul 31 2009 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
Ever get the feeling like SE just got sick of us always throwing tantrums?

I'm not saying it's justified, just that I feel like they got sick of us.
#209 Jul 31 2009 at 1:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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87 posts
I've pretty much lost my will to fight this after reading the last few bans, and what happened to Phallucy in his log with SE...

I'll still be playing SE games, but hell if I ever pay for another subscription. Never been feeling like I got f'ed so hard the the backdoor by any one company. I had such great respect for SE at one point... Goodbye and you can shove ff14 up your ***.
#210 Jul 31 2009 at 1:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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82 posts
Quote:
We appreciate this customer’s concern and can guarantee this matter has been brought to the attention of our management team. The customer is welcome to pursue a ban complaint with proper verification with the PlayOnline Information Center. However, in the end we need to alert this customer that SQUARE ENIX, INC. may suspend, terminate, modify, or delete any PlayOnline account at anytime, with any reason or no reason, with or without notice (PlayOnline Member Agreement, Article 3.2). We apologize that this customer feels like they were treated unfairly in any way. We must make it clear to this customer that there is nothing the BBB or management can do that will result in the reversal of the action taken on this account.


I do have to admit, I am fairly impressed they actually gave us both different responses this time. I wonder if they read my "copy + paste" and "cookie cutter answers" digs this time? or if this was just coincidence. Either way I am getting so sick of hearing the "well it says in our terms we can ban you whenever for whatever and we don't have to tell you why". Seriously, California is an at-will employment state. I wonder how they would like hearing:

"Oh yeah, you're fired. Sorry you've been working here at PlayOnline for 6 years but we decided to let you go for irregular activities."

"But sir, I have a clean work history... I have never been late, absent, or had a complaint filed against me, why am I fired?"

"I'm sorry we can't discuss that. As per our terms of employment we reserve the right to terminate you for any reason or no reason at all, with or without prior notice. Please leave the building you will not be given time to clean out your desk. All of your belongings here belong to PlayOnline as per our terms of employment, as well as rights to your first born, the title to your car, the deed to your house, and your marriage certificate to your wife. Hope to see you at work!"

"Um... can I speak to the manager about this?"

"No you may not, but you are more than welcome to write him a letter."

"But his office is right behind you..."

"He does not talk to people in person."

Edited, Jul 31st 2009 5:54pm by Phallucy
#211 Jul 31 2009 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
Thief's Knife
*****
15,054 posts
It's going to be hilarious when they try this same **** on the ICO and get told "enjoy your fine and if you don't cough up the info we will start criminal proceedings"

I wonder how they're going to react to that? One thing I'm sure of is that it will be fun to watch.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#212 Jul 31 2009 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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847 posts
Quote:
I do have to admit, I am fairly impressed they actually gave us both different responses this time. I wonder if they read my "copy + paste" and "cookie cutter answers" digs this time? or if this was just coincidence. Either way I am getting so sick of hearing the "well it says in our terms we can ban you whenever for whatever and we don't have to tell you why". Seriously, California is an at-will employment state. I wonder how they would like hearing:

"Oh yeah, you're fired. Sorry you've been working here at PlayOnline for 6 years but we decided to let you go for irregular activities."

"But sir, I have a clean work history... I have never been late, absent, or had a complaint filed against me, why am I fired?"

"I'm sorry we can't discuss that. As per our terms of employment we reserve the right to terminate you for any reason or no reason at all, with or without prior notice. Please leave the building you will not be given time to clean out your desk. All of your belongings here belong to PlayOnline as per our terms of employment, as well as rights to your first born, the title to your car, the deed to your house, and your marriage certificate to your wife. Hope to see you at work!"

"Um... can I speak to the manager about this?"

"No you may not, but you are more than welcome to write him a letter."

"But his office is right behind you..."

"He does not talk to people in person."


This is an example of an "at will" employment situation, where either employee or employer can end the employment relationship for any given reason.

*cough*

Anyway, I think people here need a reality check. First off, complaining to the BBB will do nothing really. It's not going to restore people's account, nor will it cause SE to stop banning people for seemingly arbitrary reasons. Second, complaining to the local Attorney General will do nothing as well. No laws are being broken here, and SE is well within their rights to ban people from playing Final Fantasy XI.

Think of Final Fantasy XI/PlayOnline as a private club, complete with a contract and a regular member fee. As a private club, SE has every right to choose who to allow access to and who to deny access to. If SE decided that all people who speak with a Southern/Kansai/Yorkshire accent can no longer play the game, they have every right to ban such people. If SE decided to ban all Mithra with face 6B wearing full Warrior Artifact Armor (+1, normal, or a mix), they can easily do it with no recourse for such players to be unbanned. As aggravating as the situation appears, there's really no legal recourse one can do to reinstate one's account when banned.

Now, having said that, I do think that SE does owe us players some explanation. While it is understandable that they don't want to reveal specifics (after all, they are chasing after RMT), they should come up with some way to prevent/restore players who can prove somehow that they aren't RMT. I do think that SE owes us that much, and that an explanation is in order here.

I'll admit that this is one of my fears when SE gets tough on RMT, that they'll get too tough, and start banning non-RMT players. I'd say "I told you so", but I would feel too bad. It would be nice to hear how SE would help players who aren't RMT.

#213 Jul 31 2009 at 3:42 PM Rating: Default
**
494 posts
I see people are upset and pissed but how is this going to change anything. We all agree to the TOS and its fine lines. Sure you can sue the hell out of them but I can guarantee they have the best damn lawyers money can buy. Take Walmart a major powerhouse with hella lawyers, and SE is no different. You can send letters and threaten lawsuits but I guarantee they are writing it off. Obviously there is motive behind the bannings, SE is a very smart Franchise and they know what they are doing with the player base to make money flow. We may think this is all BS but SE is very wise in there endeavors other wise they would not have survived this long with the fanbase. But this is just my opinion take it with a grain of salt.
#214 Jul 31 2009 at 3:47 PM Rating: Excellent
Thief's Knife
*****
15,054 posts
CaspinA wrote:
I see people are upset and pissed but how is this going to change anything. We all agree to the TOS and its fine lines. Sure you can sue the hell out of them but I can guarantee they have the best damn lawyers money can buy. Take Walmart a major powerhouse with hella lawyers, and SE is no different. You can send letters and threaten lawsuits but I guarantee they are writing it off. Obviously there is motive behind the bannings, SE is a very smart Franchise and they know what they are doing with the player base to make money flow. We may think this is all BS but SE is very wise in there endeavors other wise they would not have survived this long with the fanbase. But this is just my opinion take it with a grain of salt.


UK is different. SE must cough up the information on exactly why the ban occurred or face fines and prosecution under the DPA.

They can try to refuse if they want but in the end they will be forced to comply or they will end up in serious hot water.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#215 Jul 31 2009 at 3:48 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,428 posts
Phallucy wrote:
Quote:
We appreciate this customer’s concern and can guarantee this matter has been brought to the attention of our management team. The customer is welcome to pursue a ban complaint with proper verification with the PlayOnline Information Center. However, in the end we need to alert this customer that SQUARE ENIX, INC. may suspend, terminate, modify, or delete any PlayOnline account at anytime, with any reason or no reason, with or without notice (PlayOnline Member Agreement, Article 3.2). We apologize that this customer feels like they were treated unfairly in any way. We must make it clear to this customer that there is nothing the BBB or management can do that will result in the reversal of the action taken on this account.


I do have to admit, I am fairly impressed they actually gave us both different responses this time. I wonder if they read my "copy + paste" and "cookie cutter answers" digs this time? or if this was just coincidence. Either way I am getting so sick of hearing the "well it says in our terms we can ban you whenever for whatever and we don't have to tell you why". Seriously, California is an at-will employment state. I wonder how they would like hearing:

"Oh yeah, you're fired. Sorry you've been working here at PlayOnline for 6 years but we decided to let you go for irregular activities."

"But sir, I have a clean work history... I have never been late, absent, or had a complaint filed against me, why am I fired?"

"I'm sorry we can't discuss that. As per our terms of employment we reserve the right to terminate you for any reason or no reason at all, with or without prior notice. Please leave the building you will not be given time to clean out your desk. All of your belongings here belong to PlayOnline as per our terms of employment, as well as rights to your first born, the title to your car, the deed to your house, and your marriage certificate to your wife. Hope to see you at work!"

"Um... can I speak to the manager about this?"

"No you may not, but you are more than welcome to write him a letter."

"But his office is right behind you..."

"He does not talk to people in person."

Edited, Jul 31st 2009 5:54pm by Phallucy


This actually was in the hire packet for the a job i held for 8 years and was fired about 3 weeks ago. Granted they had a reason, but they didn't need to.
#216 Jul 31 2009 at 4:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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82 posts
Quote:
Anyway, I think people here need a reality check. First off, complaining to the BBB will do nothing really. It's not going to restore people's account, nor will it cause SE to stop banning people for seemingly arbitrary reasons. Second, complaining to the local Attorney General will do nothing as well. No laws are being broken here, and SE is well within their rights to ban people from playing Final Fantasy XI.


The point is to hurt their credibility with the BBB. At no point did I think that would actually get me unbanned or get accounts restored, it was to give them bad PR. However they do monitor customer relations with a company and gauge how well they deal with consumers. If they get enough bad complaints then they will look like a less credible company and hopefully lose future business because of it, or at least change some policies in order to clean up their image.
#217 Jul 31 2009 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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494 posts
I was searching through other forums and on BG someone posted this link. Looking at 3.2 seems to be nail in the coffin but I could be wrong. We all agree to these terms but not sure how other Nations deal with issues like this but its pretty straight forward.

https://secure.playonline.com/supportus/rule_polmember.html
#218 Jul 31 2009 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
**
847 posts
Quote:
The point is to hurt their credibility with the BBB. At no point did I think that would actually get me unbanned or get accounts restored, it was to give them bad PR. However they do monitor customer relations with a company and gauge how well they deal with consumers. If they get enough bad complaints then they will look like a less credible company and hopefully lose future business because of it, or at least change some policies in order to clean up their image.


Except, that's not what happens. Really, I haven't seen anyone not join FFXI because of a bad rep with SE (and come to think of it, SE's rep with BBB is already at an all time low even before this), and honestly, I don't think that SE has ever suffered just from the BBB rating.

As cathartic as it may be, I have yet to see anything happen when complaining to the BBB for anything.
#219 Jul 31 2009 at 5:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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50,767 posts
Phallucy wrote:
If they get enough bad complaints then they will look like a less credible company and hopefully lose future business because of it, or at least change some policies in order to clean up their image.
Companies aren't going to pull advertising money from Square because they don't advertise in their games to begin with, Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft are both unlikely to drop them because of how much money Square draws in to their companies, and no matter what players will continue to buy and play their games. In other words, a bad report from the BBB isn't going to do much of anything.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#220 Jul 31 2009 at 5:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,260 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
In other words, a bad report from the BBB isn't going to do much of anything.
#222 Jul 31 2009 at 5:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,260 posts
facepalm wrote:
They ban gil buyers because it is against the rules idiots


Why the hell is this troll not no-rated yet? Come on people, quit slacking
#224 Jul 31 2009 at 8:57 PM Rating: Excellent
Didn't I already mention most of these sections of the TOS? I know I at least said it looks pretty ironclad as far as "we do what we want, refuse to reverse any of our decisions, and you can't do a damn thing about it". Especially the part where you have absolutely no rights to your character, items, et cetera. Which was probably originally put in there to prevent character-selling, which is what could have made gil-selling so much more popular, which is why they're using the same article to "ban f**king everyone" (thank you, Encyclopedia Dramatica).

... Yeah, I'm pretty emotionally unbalanced at the moment. And I haven't even checked to see if I'm re-banned yet.
#225 Jul 31 2009 at 9:04 PM Rating: Excellent
AnyaLouvel wrote:
Didn't I already mention most of these sections of the TOS? I know I at least said it looks pretty ironclad as far as "we do what we want, refuse to reverse any of our decisions, and you can't do a damn thing about it". Especially the part where you have absolutely no rights to your character, items, et cetera.


Exactly why the only way to re-open negotiation is a class action lawsuit to contest the legality of such clauses. The repercussions of which, will be felt through out the entire video gaming industry around the world and turn SE into an industry pariah in the process.

Addition
In South Korea, such clauses are illegal, a MMO service provider is seen as a landlord/tenant relationship. Virtual items belong to the owner, and hence the MMO service provider is duty bound to keep the service accessible to its owners or face penalties. Needless to say, this adds costs to companies. Probably why despite an announcement back in '05, SE's possible move to South Korea never materialized. They thought they had to keep FFXI open forever. Of course, in reality, most companies that choose to close down their MUD/MMO/etc offer their players to quit in exchange for say 12 months free play in their next MMO.

Not really that hard SE.

Now in the USA and EU in general, no such landmark case (to my minuscule knowledge) or law has been passed to protect consumers from e-dictators. Video Gaming unlike South Korea is not big money. If players make it happen, the entire video gaming landscape and even service industry could possibly change forever. Clubs can't shut down without compensating their members, etc. Cost of doing business in these businesses goes up exponentially. And it'll all be SE's fault for messing up a sweet deal.


Edited, Aug 1st 2009 5:23am by Ryuukage
#226 Jul 31 2009 at 9:30 PM Rating: Decent
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1,020 posts
Quote:
Why the hell is this troll not no-rated yet? Come on people, quit slacking


I remember rating ONE of his posts into unrated oblivion. Judging by his sig, I'd say he's a BG @$$kisser.

EDIT: Would help if I actually included the original post. Stupid me, half asleep.

Edited, Aug 1st 2009 1:31am by Magicalsquirrel
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