On the subject of in-game same-sex marriage....Follow

Wow, we wnet quite a ways from gay marriage in Vana'diel to psychological differences between gay and straight men and women.

As for the game, there is no need to, as marriage attains nothing special, is not truly recognized by everyone else, and recieves no extra benefits, so what's the big deal? Have your lover Max make another characte of a different gender and get married. SE can't do anything to stop it, and I don't care. More power to you for sticking it to the man. ;)

As for authority, yes, you probably are, but I know things about gays too from a friend, so I know some too. I think, if it turns out gays could be born that way, then I have no reservations about gay marriage as it was not their choice. They can't help it, soshould I hinder it? But until concrete evidence supports it, then I'm not going to support it, sorry.

And by the way, I hope you're not implying that all Christians or even all Baptists hate gay people, or you're really going to get people mad, as I'm Christian, and I certianly don't hate gay people. The whole message of Christ is love and tolerance, and I can tolerate and respect gay people.

See, I dont think there is any evidence that says you are wrong or bad... I'm not looking for such a thing. It's not my lot in life ot pick on people or hurt them. Ask my girl, Im a fuzzy teddybear. I will simply argue on sensibilities. I dont recall ever once calling you or gays anything either. Like in my last post where I use words like "them funny folk" I'm not speaking for myself, Im speaking for the "unwashed mass" or "Everyman".

I have not one bad thing to say about you Saboruto. I think you expect me to too much and it makes you defensive. The turth is I do not dislike people over a simple argument of principle. This is why I have not rated posts in this thread. Objectivity is paramount in my world.

Our disagreement is vested in "Who has the right to define marriage?" Thats it, thats all. As much as you are convinced you are in the right on the subject as am I. In order to engage in an honest philisiophical debate one must consider the possibility that they are in the wrong. I don't think you can be convinced that you sit on an extreme and volatile subject and cover it with the blanket of human rights. It's not a human rights subject it's a moral rights subject. The fact is that noone dictates who you can or cannot love.

Noone dictates who I can or cannot love. That is where "rights" are drawn. You try to extend this into authority however. You don't see heterosexual couples lobbying in one direction or another before this subject was 9-11ed into our face by a handful of judges. Anyone with a lick of sense knows that its not right or just to pick on someone. It can't be easy to be homosexual. I dont think there's anyone in America who can say otherwise. The fact that I feel sorry for you, does not give you the right to move in on "my territory" however.

You cannot naturally raise children like me and my girlfriend can. Why should you be extended the same tax breaks and insurance policies?
The proportion of STDs in your community is statistically greater than mine. Why should I pay MORE for insurance to accomodate you?
I choose to raise my children in a certain fashion. Why am I asked to be so exposed to your choices and set aside my own? You can't turn a TV on nowadays without something "gay" being on or whatever. <cough Britney SPears> <cough Dharma and Greg> <etc>
Perhaps, objectively, you could say that perhaps the gay community is being too vocal. As such, it will suffer on this issue. Too much too fast. Chalk it up as a loss. A rubberband bends only so far before it snaps. If you champion the human rights side of the argument (which you do) Then certainly you fear "the snap" right?

There, I rated people based on content. Sabo, you got some rate-ups, as the psosts on this page were thought out and written well (the ones on the last page were kinda rushed and didn't have much support). Trinitee got sume rate-ups as well, same with Lufein (I spelled that wrong, sorry ^^;;;) and Vercetti. You guys make for lively debate!

Well, I'll share a story with you of what happened to me. When I was 15, I "came out" to my mother. She was understandably shocked, though the first thing she said to me still haunts me. She looked at me, completely stunned, and then said very slowly and quietly, "How dare you do this to your father and I?" Now I know my mother isn't homophobic, and even my father has reached a point where he can embrace Max as a member of the family, but nevertheless it really tore me apart that my mother would completely disregard the amount of pain and suffering and self-loathing that I was going through, and that she could only think of herself and my father.

Well anyway, over the weeks my mother settled down some, though she didn't tell my father because she was afraid of what he would do to me. Instead we spoke to the pastor of our church (with my permission and approval) to seek spiritual guidance. This would have been on Wednesday or Thursday, and he said all the things you would expect one to say. "Embrace the Lord, let go your evil ways (which technically I wasn't, since I was still a virgin), and pray for forgiveness." Well, we didn't get a lot out of it but I guess it was some comfort to my mum. Anyway, that Sunday we went to church as always (my father isn't a churchy-type but my mum and sister and I always went). The pastor started a sermon "that he was given as a gift by Jesus, in an inspirational moment that came to me this week". He started preaching fire and brimstone and damnation to homosexuals, saying that they're a sickness, a cancer eating away at God's good blessings. He then said, and I quote (because I will never forgive this moment as long as I live), "However, God wants us to hate the sin but love the sinner. For example, brother Jason is a ******, he and his mother came to me this week to ask for guidance. His mother wept at the shame and horror he brought upon her, but God's love will smile upon him for knowing his sickness and repenting, so we must find it in OUR hearts to love him and forgive him even as we hate the putrid sickness that Satan has placed in his heart."

I could have killed myself then and there. The entire congregation of over 200 people were staring at me, and immediately I went from being a good, hard working, time-donating, unselfish Christian brother to being a cancer in their midst, something they should detest and pity. People sent my mother cards of condolence and mourning, and things were thrown at our house at night. My dad's truck window was smashed in and my dog was shot one day when we were all away. All I had ever done was admit to someone else something that was troubling me, and suddenly I went from being a wonderful, upstanding person active in my church and community to being an object of hatred and fear and ridicule? The one good thing that came out of that entire hellish year was it opened my eyes. It taught me not to believe what others tell me but to make my own moral decisions. I don't need someone else to tell me the difference between right and wrong, I can do it myself. I don't need someone to tell me a story they heard about some guy was crucified 2000 years ago, I can find evidence myself and believe what I know to be true. Do I hate Christianity? No, of course not, the people of that congregation are HARDLY representative of Christianity or organised religion. I can't be bitter at a religion for the behaviour of a few of its followers. However, my point is that most of us base our religious and ethical beliefs on what others have told us to believe. We're Christian or Buddhist or Muslem or whatever because our parents or community are. We believe that Noah built an ark because someone told us so, but they believe it because someone else told THEM.

I believe what I believe. It doesn't match up with any known religion in the world, but it FEELS right. It's very simple, it doesn't have a lot of ritual or rules. It's based on common sense. Don't hurt other people, and do everything you can to help them. Believe in a higher power, but that higher power doesn't have to be defined or named. Humans try to define EVERYTHING, but I believe that our creator is beyond our comprehension. Definitions, names, descriptions are impossible. So, I believe in a higher power, I believe I was given life for a reason, and I know that when I die I will go on in another form. That's all I know, and I'm happy with that. There are wonders in this universe beyond anything the human brain can understand, so I don't try. My point is, just because a book WRITTEN BY HUMANS says homosexuality is evil, that doesn't make it so. I know in my heart that my life is filled with love and that is NEVER wrong. All I wish is that the world at large would stop telling me otherwise and just let me be. Give me the same rights, the same responsibilities, the same protections, the same limitations as everyone else, and I'll be happy. Nothing more, nothing less.

Read my entire post please? I was just making the point that you HAD to have been born that way.

Quick question, Lefein.

Would you place that same judgement on a Heterosexual couple who, due to medical problems, cannot bear children? And if not, why? Neither they not a Homosexual couple can naturally raise children like you and your girlfriend can, so do you think they should be refused the right to marry? If not, why? I fail to see where a distinction could be drawn.

Bravelionheart, yes. You were "meant" to play basketball.


There is no scientific research that shows men are "wired" to be attracted to women, or the women are "wired" to be attracted to men. It's all speculation, read the past few pages about it.

Yeah, sorry, work was hellish this morning but it's calmed down a lot this afternoon, so I've had more time to think of my responses and phrase them the way I mean. I apologise for rushing this morning, but I got assigned 4 new cases at once (normally it's about 2 at a time instead).

Drink to that.

Yes, I'll drink to Lefein (sorry about spelling ^^;;;) post, as it was dead on. Althouh I'd personally marry the woman I love before having sex (you know, that's just how I am) I salute anyone that has found a lifelong partner. Realtionships shouldn't be based on looks or lovemaking, but support and true heartfelt love. If you're comfortable around this person and wouldn't trade anything for the moments you've had together, then I appluad you too.

Here's hoping we all find someone great, am I right?

:)

CBD, are you homosexual? Have you heard of men that have been married for 40 or 50 years, just to decide one day that they are gay? I've heard of that many times. I don't find men attractive. I, also, don't find a LOT of women attractive. What I find attractive, was NOT instilled at birth. I'm not going to argue with you anymore, about how I feel. It's how I feel. I chose my girlfriend.

EDIT : Clarity.

Edited, Tue Aug 10 22:36:56 2004 by Trinitee

Exactly, you chose your girlfriend, not whether or not you're attracted to women. There's a HUGE difference between the two. Sure you're not attracted to men, that was my point, you weren't WIRED to, you're attracted to women. How are you going to manage to explain that, without realizing it wasn't a conscious choice in your life?

The reason those men changed was because they didn't really mean it Trinitee. They never weren't attracted to men. Do you realize how many people probably just pretend they're heterosexual because they don't want to face the hate they'd get? We're living in a LOT more gay-friendly world then we were 40-50 years ago. Compare our generation to your father's, or even your grandfather's, generation.

As an an to your question on if I'm a homosexual? Yes. I've been trying to pretend to myself for years that I've liked women, only because I was raised to think that was the right thing. I'm sick of living with the constant thought that what I'm doing is wrong. Would you like the constant thought that you're going to have to break some news to your parents that will make them probably hate you for the rest of your life? I don't know anyone that would.



Edited, Tue Aug 10 22:41:50 2004 by CBD

Edited, Tue Aug 10 22:42:23 2004 by CBD