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On the subject of in-game same-sex marriage....Follow

#427 Aug 10 2004 at 7:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Sabo, you dont get it...

YOU think its okay for gays to marry.

YOU do not think it's okay for polygamists to marry however.

So, we're letting YOU call the shots now



Please see my last post for the answer to all your questions Sab...

All hail the gay community, the new moral authority in America!

/kneel



Wow.


What does this prove?


He doesn't call the shots, you know that. He has his own standards just like any of us do. Stop trying to twist the rest of his beliefs into what he believes in this instance.


I'd probably rather have the gay community be the moral authority any day anyway.
#428 Aug 10 2004 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't because of the WAY they try and make marriage legel. If they went about it to try and get a amendment passed or something, fine, but they ignore laws, go to judges they know will have a bias, and get married in states where there's alreadya legal quagmire and go back home to force their state to recognize the marriage, even if it's against a former law.

/sigh
#429 Aug 10 2004 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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And how would, by my logic, my woman of my dreams get taken away? Explain that, as we are not taking Max away from you, the government just won't let you marry.


If I were to move back to the USA, Max would not be allowed to come with me. If he were to go into the hospital in a coma, I wouldn't be given any rights whatsoever to see him or make important medical decisions, etc. It's not about marriage, it's about the 1000+ federal rights and protections that marriage gives in the USA. Frankly, I don't care what people think of my relationship, I know it's a good, happy, stable relationship. But I DO care that the USA is denying me rights and protections that it gives others. Because yes, I COULD have Max taken away from me simply because the government refuses to acknowledge that we're anything other than roommates.

Quote:
I'm not saying, by itself, Homosexuality is wrong, but marrying homosexuals opens up a can of worms. And for God's sake, explain you're damn arguments! You went from brillaiant to desperate, as you started taking things out of context and saying wierd things, like my point being valid when I wantr it to, without backing it up. Either back it up, or expect your posts to be ignored as unsubstantiated.


So then what you're saying is, despite how it may or may not be "wrong", I still shouldn't get those rights and protections because someone else in a totally unrelated scenario might want them too? What you sound like you're saying is "We're denying you rights because we don't want group B to have them". That's fuzzy logic at best. You can't deny one group rights on the basis that you don't want another group to have those rights. Either you give them to me or you deny me those rights but you do it on the basis of gay marriage. Not on the basis of polygamy, incest, whatever. Either I deserve them or I don't, but you can't say "You don't deserve them because THEY might want them too." THEY are not ME. "Sorry Billy, you can't have equal employment or housing rights because then goldfish might start applying for government positions". You're going to have to come up with a better argument than that.

Quote:
Please see my last post for the answer to all your questions Sab...

All hail the gay community, the new moral authority in America!

/kneel


Don't patronise me.

One thing I will give you guys credit for, at least you've found "same old tired argument #4". I DID say I wished you'd come up with something other than same old tired arguments #1-3, and you came through.
#430 Aug 10 2004 at 7:37 PM Rating: Decent
A few questions for the panel:

1. What is the current perception of homosexuals in Japan, Europe, and the United States? I am not asking for the older views of homosexuality in Japan pre-meiji era, so don't try to play that card.

2. Would the insistance of Homosexual/Gay/same-sex marriages subtly push pro-American influences onto this Japanese-developed game? I'm asking it in this manner because the US is a nation where the ethnic, sexual, and religious mix is very publicized, as is the persistance of "acceptance and allowance for all".

3. Are there countries where FFXI is/will.be sold where homosexuality is considered a crime, if not a major taboo? For EXAMPLE (I stress as "one" EXAMPLE, and not the ONLY EXAMPLE), middle eastern/arabic countries consider homosexuality a major crime.

4. Why aren't there any black humes in the game? I would imagine there are more black players than homosexual players in the game, so wouldn't it be easy to change the skin tone? Remember, it's not just a white-skinned barbie world anymore.

Edited, Tue Aug 10 20:39:12 2004 by Vercetti
#431 Aug 10 2004 at 7:39 PM Rating: Decent
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189 posts
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So then what you're saying is, despite how it may or may not be "wrong", I still shouldn't get those rights and protections because someone else in a totally unrelated scenario might want them too? What you sound like you're saying is "We're denying you rights because we don't want group B to have them". That's fuzzy logic at best. You can't deny one group rights on the basis that you don't want another group to have those rights. Either you give them to me or you deny me those rights but you do it on the basis of gay marriage. Not on the basis of polygamy, incest, whatever. Either I deserve them or I don't, but you can't say "You don't deserve them because THEY might want them too." THEY are not ME. "Sorry Billy, you can't have equal employment or housing rights because then goldfish might start applying for government positions". You're going to have to come up with a better argument than that.


It's not totally unrelated, and you know it. Marriage is marriage, and by getting rid of "one man and one woman", who's to stop people from putting "one or men with one or more women or one or more men"? And it's not that I don't want Group B to have them, as you yourself said you don't want palygimists to be able to marry, but to keep this from getting out of hand. And comparing it to a goldfish is just damn stupid, as a goldfish can't speak, write talk, and isn't human, while palygimists are, and want their rights too.
#432 Aug 10 2004 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
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1,656 posts
Actually, you could argue that people ARE born Polygamists.

The Mormon religion encourages Polygamy - in fact, the only reason that they no longer practice it is that they were forced to give it up as a criteria for Utah becoming a recognised state.

And when two Mormons have a child, the child is born a Mormon - ergo, a Polygamist.


Polygamy as a comparison, I concede. I can see where you can equate allowing Polygamy to allowing Homosexual marriage. However, I fail to see how you can compare it to allowing someone to marry a cat, dog, car or whatever.

Two Homosexual people are humans. They are capable of rational thought, they are sentient beings. They have emotions, feelings - they are an intelligent life form. Dogs, cats and cars are not.

I think the key point with this issue really all boils down to technicalities. If only the word marriage was not used, I doubt there would be such a large issue at hand.

Note: Allowing Homosexuals to marry is not even in the same ballpark as paedophelia. A child is not an adult, and as such would not be allowed to have a Heterosexual marriage either. Bringing children into the issue is bringing irrelevance into it and only serves to strengthen the case for allowing Homosexual marriage.
#433 Aug 10 2004 at 7:48 PM Rating: Decent
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189 posts
Yay! You know what I'm saying! /em hugs Crimanosuke.

Quote:
Actually, you could argue that people ARE born Polygamists.

The Mormon religion encourages Polygamy - in fact, the only reason that they no longer practice it is that they were forced to give it up as a criteria for Utah becoming a recognised state.

And when two Mormons have a child, the child is born a Mormon - ergo, a Polygamist.


Polygamy as a comparison, I concede. I can see where you can equate allowing Polygamy to allowing Homosexual marriage. However, I fail to see how you can compare it to allowing someone to marry a cat, dog, car or whatever.

Two Homosexual people are humans. They are capable of rational thought, they are sentient beings. They have emotions, feelings - they are an intelligent life form. Dogs, cats and cars are not.

I think the key point with this issue really all boils down to technicalities. If only the word marriage was not used, I doubt there would be such a large issue at hand.

Note: Allowing Homosexuals to marry is not even in the same ballpark as paedophelia. A child is not an adult, and as such would not be allowed to have a Heterosexual marriage either. Bringing children into the issue is bringing irrelevance into it and only serves to strengthen the case for allowing Homosexual marriage.


I never compared a person marrying a cat to homosexuality, as it is too silly to consider rational. But on your Mormon count, I have to point out that you're wrong.

I know someone. She was born into a very strict Christian family. In life early on, she decided she didn't like Christianity and became Atheist. As you can see, you aren't born into a religion, but rather, choose it later in life because of the influence your parents had on you while you were young. Relgion is a free choice thing. No one can force you into it, and if they somehow did, then I don't know how they can justify it.

But other than that, great post. Keep it up!
#434 Aug 10 2004 at 7:48 PM Rating: Decent
University of Texas wrote:
AUSTIN, Texas —New research at The University of Texas at Austin reveals that the brains of homosexual males and females respond differently to auditory stimuli than do the brains of heterosexuals. When brief acoustic stimuli are presented to the ear, a distinctive series of brain waves is produced -- and the research shows that certain waves differ in their size or timing in homosexuals and heterosexuals.

For female subjects identifying themselves as lesbians or bisexuals, the brain waves were intermediate to those of male and female heterosexuals. "There was evidence that the auditory evoked potentials of homosexual and bisexual women were shifted in the male direction," said Dennis McFadden, UT Austin professor of experimental psychology and co-author of the study. "The implication is that some brain structures were masculinized at some time during development," he said.

A paper reporting the study's results appears in the July issue of The Journal of the Association for Research in Otolaryngology.

Other physical characteristics also are masculinized in homosexual females, according to the research. For example, in heterosexual females the index and fourth fingers are about the same in length, while in males the index finger is shorter than the fourth finger. This sex difference is believed to be produced by differential exposure to male hormones such as testosterone. In homosexual females, the index finger is shorter than in heterosexual females, also suggesting a masculinization effect.

"Physiological differences of this sort are highly unlikely to be caused by differences in experience or upbringing," said McFadden.

For male subjects identifying themselves as homosexual, the brain waves were shifted away from those of both the heterosexual males and heterosexual females. "A good way to describe the data from the homosexual males is that they appeared to be hyper-masculinized," said Craig Champlin, associate professor of communication sciences and disorders at the University and co-author of the study.

"This is especially interesting because other recent experiments have also found hyper-masculinization effects in homosexual males. For example, ***** size is greater in homosexuals than in heterosexuals," said Champlin.

"Our research reveals that it is not just parts of the body that are hyper-masculinized in homosexual males, but the brain as well," said McFadden. Past research from McFadden's lab showed that the inner ears, or cochleas, of female homosexuals and bisexuals also are masculinized, but this is the first evidence of similar effects in the auditory brain. In other studies, McFadden found no differences between the cochleas of male homosexuals and heterosexuals, so the new findings of differences in their auditory brain waves suggest that the mechanisms producing homosexuality may act differently in males and females.

"A large number of physiological and behavioral measures reveal differences between heterosexuals and homosexuals," said McFadden. "The problem for science is to identify the mechanisms--presumably they are hormonal mechanisms--that produce these differences. Our findings suggest that the auditory system may be a valuable, if unlikely, tool for studying those causal mechanisms. Apparently whatever developmental mechanisms are acting to produce homosexuality are also affecting components of the auditory system."

"Logic suggests that the degree of exposure to androgens--the male sex hormones--is somehow involved in the production of homosexuality, and our auditory results are generally in accord with that idea," McFadden said.

Champlin emphasized that "the differences we have observed were group differences, and it is not possible to determine anyone's sexual orientation from knowledge of his or her auditory brain waves."

For both males and females, five separate measures of the auditory brain waves were different in the homosexuals and heterosexuals. All of the waves showing differences appeared within 0.05 seconds following the acoustic stimulus. The auditory brain waves studied by McFadden and Champlin are recorded using electrodes attached to the scalp. They are commonly measured when it is necessary to obtain a physiological assessment of hearing instead of a behavioral one, as with infants.


Neuroscience News wrote:
Listening to ears and laughing brains.

Today's feature will discuss two recent findings. The first was the finding of a difference in otoacoustic emissions in lesbian and heterosexual women. The second was a short report of an area of the cerebral cortex that seems to be involved in the generation of laughter.

It is well know that our ears are useful for detecting sound. But, it turns out, they also produce sounds as well. These very faint sounds, called otoacoustic emissions can be spontaneously produced or are produced in response to sounds that are received by the ear. Although the exact reason for otoacoustic emissions is not known, they are thought to either help sustain or filter the sounds we hear. They also have diagnostic value since early hearing loss is often accompanied by a loss of otoacoustic emissions. They also serve as a test of peripheral function in infants who can not give verbal feedback about the sounds they hear.

Drs. D. McFadden and E.G. Pasanen at the University of Texas [1] published an article recently in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences where they examined the properties of otoacoustic emissions in hetero- and homosexual men and women. It was already known that otoacoustic emissions evoked by short clicking sounds are, on average, louder in women than in men. McFadden and Pasanen found that the volume of otoacoustic emissions in homosexual women was between that observed in strait men and strait women. Exactly what this difference means in unclear since the reason for the sex difference in heterosexuals is not understood. Additionally, there was no difference between the volume of otoacoustic emissions in hetero- and homosexual men.

The authors of the study postulate that the same etiology underlies the volume difference; that perhaps the effects of masculinizing hormones encountered during fetal development may be higher in homosexual women, as in men and could account for the decreased otoacoustic emission volume in both groups. There is some evidence to suggest this could be true since females in male/female fraternal twin pairs that can be exposed to higher concentrations of male hormones during fetal development, have quieter evoked otoacoustic emissions.
[1] McFadden D, Pasanen EG, 1998.
Comparison of the auditory systems of heterosexuals and homosexuals: Click-evoked otoacoustic emissions. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. 95:2709-2713.




Additional information on a number of various study techniques aimed at establishing the origins of homosexuality can be found here. or if you're really interested, you can try Google

Edited, Tue Aug 10 21:09:02 2004 by Saboruto
#435 Aug 10 2004 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Actually, you could argue that people ARE born Polygamists.

The Mormon religion encourages Polygamy - in fact, the only reason that they no longer practice it is that they were forced to give it up as a criteria for Utah becoming a recognised state.


I thought that too, until I spoke to a Mormon bishop. In fact, the above quote is a total misnomer.

According to Mormon doctrine, God told the Mormons to experiment with polygamy until the early 20th century, when people realized that it was no longer practical for them. Depending on whether you're a God-hating atheist or a person with an open mind, see it as whether they just wanted to be a state (btw, aside from the military governor, a territory has more incentives than a state) or God telling them it's time to move on.
#436 Aug 10 2004 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
Crimanosuke wrote:
They have emotions, feelings - they are an intelligent life form. Dogs, cats and cars are not.


I really can't believe you said that. Dogs and cats aren't intelligent? They don't have emotions? Do you encourage companies to experiment on animals, since they aren't intelligent, have no feelings or emotions?
#437 Aug 10 2004 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
I'm not patronizing you... If you want to be the one who decides what marriage is or who or who can't marry then say so. Obviously whatever the vast majority says doesnt count because the vast majority is stupid or evil. Let's just leave it to the gay community to tell us what is right or wrong then.... or a handful of judges..
#438 Aug 10 2004 at 7:54 PM Rating: Good
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1,656 posts
Bravelionheart, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I was also born into a Christian family and became Atheist early in my life.

However, depending on the family in question they CAN force religion on the child - and until the child is of age to make that choice for themselves, they are for all intents and purposes a member of their parents' religion.

Relating to the cat comment, I wasn't directing it at you in particular. It just seems to be a common argument which I find ludicrous.

Vercetti, that may well be the reason the Mormons gave for abandoning Polygamy. But it doesn't change the fact that the US Government cited that as a reason for refusing to allow Utah to become a state - and only once Polygamy had been abandoned did it become one.
#439 Aug 10 2004 at 7:54 PM Rating: Decent
I thought about this awhile back, though I have no idea how easy/probable it would. Make a gay religion. A religion for gay people and people who support them. America has supposed "Freedom of Religion" and there's the seperation of church and state. If it was required/accepted in your religion to have a homosexual marriage, could the government do anything? I don't know much of this subject and it was just an idea that randomly came into my head. The way I see it, if you can start a church based off Spongebob Squarepants, why not have a church that allows/supports gay marriage?
#440 Aug 10 2004 at 7:55 PM Rating: Decent
so, when's this gonna become a sticky?
#441 Aug 10 2004 at 7:57 PM Rating: Good
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1,656 posts
Trinitee wrote:
Quote:
Crimanosuke wrote:
Quote:

They have emotions, feelings - they are an intelligent life form. Dogs, cats and cars are not.




I really can't believe you said that. Dogs and cats aren't intelligent? They don't have emotions? Do you encourage companies to experiment on animals, since they aren't intelligent, have no feelings or emotions?


I mainly was referring to whoever listed marrying a car with that statement.

But still, while I agree that animals have feelings and are intelligent, would you seriously claim they have the same level of complexity in those qualities as humans?

Edit: Messed up quote tags.

Edited, Tue Aug 10 20:58:30 2004 by Crimanosuke
#442 Aug 10 2004 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
That research you posted Saboruto, shows nothing. It says that...

Quote:
The implication is that some brain structures were masculinized at some time during development


So yeah, a lot of lesbians are rather manly. Not all manly women, are lesbians though. They say the same (except in reverse) of men, and there are a lot of femine men, who are gay.

Show me some "real" scientific proof.
#443 Aug 10 2004 at 7:59 PM Rating: Decent
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189 posts
@GodHatesFags: There is no Speration of Church and State. I wondered when it would come up as an arguement. /sigh
#444 Aug 10 2004 at 7:59 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
But still, while I agree that animals have feelings and are intelligent, would you seriously claim they have the same level of complexity in those qualities as humans?


Don't underestimate the intelligence of animals. Some are very intelligent and I am sure some also have very complex feelings. Don't forget, not all humans are intelligent... mentally handicapped people still have rights to get married. Not to be mean, but I'm sure there is a mentally handicapped person that is not as smart as some animals.
#445 Aug 10 2004 at 8:00 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Vercetti, that may well be the reason the Mormons gave for abandoning Polygamy. But it doesn't change the fact that the US Government cited that as a reason for refusing to allow Utah to become a state - and only once Polygamy had been abandoned did it become one.


Very interesting you worded it like this. I need to do a google news search, but there was a story recently about the school board of the City of Westminster refusing to re-word a document on the tolerance of gays and transgenders, transgenders in particular. Anyway, because of the refusal of the board, the government was threatening to remove some funding from the school district. The voting members of the board that voted against the change of the wording were adament, holding on to their christian beliefs.

The majority of the parents in the district, desperate for more cash to be spent on their children, pushed for the re-wording.

So either side with the christian beliefs or for the almighty dollar. Tough choice to some, eh?
#446 Aug 10 2004 at 8:00 PM Rating: Decent
It was brought up earlier as well. But just asking if there was such a thing.
#447 Aug 10 2004 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
So yeah, a lot of lesbians are rather manly. Not all manly women, are lesbians though. They say the same (except in reverse) of men, and there are a lot of femine men, who are gay.

Show me some "real" scientific proof.


Read both articles again, carefully and slowly this time, and then go do a search on Google for +brain +homosexual +heterosexual. I am not going to post the masses of studies and evidence in this thread, it would get much too long and awkward to read. I just posted two that caught my eye and were short enough to be quoted.
#448 Aug 10 2004 at 8:04 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Don't underestimate the intelligence of animals. Some are very intelligent and I am sure some also have very complex feelings. Don't forget, not all humans are intelligent... mentally handicapped people still have rights to get married. Not to be mean, but I'm sure there is a mentally handicapped person that is not as smart as some animals.


In other news, domesticated animals are no longer known as "pets". The new term is "animal companion".
#449 Aug 10 2004 at 8:05 PM Rating: Decent
I'm sure, that all of the research proves the same thing : nothing. Like I said, many lesbians are manly, but not all manly females are lesbians. I'm not the one claiming this is, you need to provide proof. Otherwise, to me its false, and you've proved nothing.
#450 Aug 10 2004 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
So if a feeble old lady falls in love with her cat then we should let her marry because her brain waves have allowed her to truly love Mittens?

Edited, Tue Aug 10 22:40:44 2004 by Lefein
#451 Aug 10 2004 at 8:06 PM Rating: Default
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81 posts
Quote:
AUSTIN, Texas —New research at The University of Texas at Austin reveals that the brains of homosexual males and females respond differently to auditory stimuli than do the brains of heterosexuals. When brief acoustic stimuli are presented to the ear, a distinctive series of brain waves is produced -- and the research shows that certain waves differ in their size or timing in homosexuals and heterosexuals.


Does that refer to the soundwaves produce by music: ie. Cher and Abba
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