On the subject of in-game same-sex marriage....Follow

Well, I DO believe in god. You say you dont like beening singled out, eh? .. look at you! Making negitive comments about MY religion. Lets just say this. In my religion and beliefs your lifestyle IS totally evil. It goes against every thing and makes life possible. It does say in the bible that you WILL PAY for your "gay" ways. But if you were to meet me in real life, i would still treat you with respect. Thats is my way.

I take it you dont believe what the Bible says about gay people. and its your right to! BUT for you, I hope you are right and i am wrong. 'cause if im right and you are wrong.. enough said.

~my 2 gil

*edit* I will pray for your soul.



Edited, Tue Aug 10 10:45:53 2004 by OneWingedAngels

Yeah, but regardless we still live in a society with the guy who wants to marry that box turtle and is being constantly vocal about it. Gay people wouldn't push their agenda if they didn't have to. (Also I don't think the box turtle knows or cares about inheritance law. Stupid politician =P)



Yay more controversial issues! =D I see abortion as on a totally different level than homosexuality... it affects someone other than the decision-makers in a very lethal way. But it's like prostitution, people are gonna do it anyway, and there are situations where it's necessary, so why make a case-by-case moral judgement? Just make sure it's safe and well-regulated and that teenagers/low-income men and women can get contraception. I would get an abortion myself if my life were in danger, and I'd hate to die anyway if the clinic I was in blew up.

I still am not comprehending the opinion of some of the more conservative posters here... why do you judge what should be law on your feelings and beliefs rather than what is practical and fair? We are trying to make a society that simply works, not a society that governs our morals. If gay people are to be denied basic legal freedoms, then let's go ahead and outlaw divorce, adultery, the worshipping of idols, lying, gossipping, and botting, too. Five years per NM illicitly provoked should send a message.

Edited, Tue Aug 10 12:26:22 2004 by Krylanna

Whoever said dolphin females have sex...


I don't think they make strap-ons or ****** for Dolphins, and I'm pretty sure that if they did, it would be kinda hard for them to obtain them/put them on.


What part of "This is a GAME." do you people not get? Think of all the african-american (or whatever is the PC term) players, and how not a single player model is dark. Sorry, but I think that would be a more important issue. Marriage isn't a necessity, but I kinda think that player selection is. I'm also willing to bet there are many more black players than there are gays.

Oh wait, I know why you didn't think of that. It's because you're gay, and you think everyone discriminates against you. You think that every one ELSE is the problem. Too busy in your selfish desires to think about what others have to deal with, and have had to deal with for centuries. Of course... why would you care? You're probably white anyway...

I'm white. So don't try to play that.

My point: Homosexuals need to stop complaining about everything being against them. Be thankful you can go around every day and most people never knowing you're gay. But a black man can go down the street and have every racist and bigot know that he's black, and draw their hatred. Get a clue, hypocrites.

honastly, how can anyone call FFXI, JUST a game. >.> /sm sarcasim

Just a game where when someone screws up during battle, they are called a "***," or when someone reports someone to a GM, they're so "gay." Or of course, the happy standby, "stfu u n00b ******." Now, I assume your head's not totally up your ***, and you have seen this as well. Or do you have all chat whatsoever filtered out?

If people want to drag the derogatory comments and rude name-calling into the game, then we might as well have a discussion on this issue as well.

And every time I think someone could not have been more insulting... here it is. First of all, to your post bringing racial issues into the picture, you are not the first ... And many of the homosexual or pro-homosexual posters have included racial rights in their comments. I do not think we deserve being called hypocritical. Second, are you suggesting that all gay people should closet themselves so they won't be discovered? I am who I am, and I do not feel I need to hide it from anyone. I don't go and have sex in public places, but I'll be damned if I can't give a date a kiss at the movies or hold his hand on the way home. I will be damned if I have to whisper to a friend when walking down the street because I am talking about my partner and someone will overhear. I will be damned if I have to witness an effeminate man harassed because he may or may not be homosexual. We are not invisible, nor would I want to be, and visibility has never even been an issue in this thread. I will not say that this world is still fair to all races, but at least they have been given equal rights by law, and that is what most of this debate has been about.

And not that it properly covers off racial issues, Humes, Taru, & Elvaan only have one shade of character skin, but Galka and Mithra both have different shades and there is no in game bigotry between the white and black furred Galka. This has always shown an indifference to race in general and the game itself promotes unity amongst different races. I have yet to hear of any parents up in arms because their children are playing a race other than hume, or are playing with other characters other than hume. Gay rights are in a distinctly different category here, and in many ways has made homosexuals more visible than racial visibility due to the lack of physicality involved... We are boiled down and judged based on our statements, thoughts and actions rather than our appearance or skin type.


Bingo! I play to escape as well... but I log on and I have to deal with the same old hatred & homophobia in Vana'diel that I do in reality. You can't separate it. On days when I truly want to escape, I pull out a console game and play by myself where I don't have to interact with anyone. Regardless, SE has made a political choice and this forum is discussing it.


Excuse me... but you chose to read this thread, and chose to comment on this thread, and chose to make it your business. Nobody here (that I have read) is making any kinds of demands to SquareEnix to change the policy, nor do I (and I assume We) expect to see any such change. I have not seen groups of gay players staging an in-game demonstration spamming up the cities with messages demanding gay rights and disrupting people trying to play the game... and it is not going to happen. This is just a debate for people that are interested in the subject.

I for one don't really care that there is no gay marriage in the game, and I don't plan on marrying my character off despite the number of proposals I have declined. What has sparked my comments are the issues that have been brought into this debate from RL, and in participation of a discussion of open thought revolving around SE's choice to specifically disallow it.

Just a tidbit for all in the anti-gay marriage camp... How would you feel if you were not allowed to marry your lovers? Not getting the same tax breaks, benefit/pension plans and other civic rights. Not being able to show any affection in public. Being told that your ceremonies are invalid, or that you are a sinner because you feel the way you do? Just take a step past what you may not understand, (and possibly fear), and ask yourself how does this really impact you, and is it really fair to impose lesser status on someone based on the grounds of who they couple with?

The fact of the matter is, there are homosexuals, and we do live amongst you. That is not going to change. Worrying about the exposure to your children as an argument is invalid because regardless of marriage we will still be here. Arguing about the degradation of society's morals is invalid because we are part of society and heavily influence it already. This is not a petition for acceptance, or a plea for attention. This is not whining for special treatment, it is asking to be treated in the same manner as everyone else, race, gender, and spiritual belief.

I do not care if you hate me for who I am, I am not here to change your opinion of homosexuals, or get your sympathy and acceptance. I do care if your hatred manifests in spiteful action, and I will challenge those actions. Denying basic rights in my opinion is spiteful and therefore unacceptable regardless of your opinion about my sexuality.

You know, I'm really starting to get sick of the same three arguments. "Gays are evil! The Bible says so!" "It will lead to the collapse of modern society!" "It will lead to people marrying their entire town, including everyone's pets and favourite electrical appliances!" The anti-gays really need to find a new argument, because these have already been addressed SO many times. But I'll go through them again to catch everyone up so that maybe we won't have to deal with these SAME THREE ARGUMENTS again.

1. "Gays are evil! The Bible says so!" - Your religion is not the only religion in the world. Nor is it the most followed, nor the oldest, nor the least self-contradictory. Why should society be set up around religion in the first place? I don't have to follow your religion, I don't have to believe in your God, so why should I be bound by YOUR religious rules? My religion is a much less "condemning" one than Christianity. There is no Hell, there is no evil figure trying to lead us astray. There is only kindness and light, and mankind's attempt to rise above our base animalistic impulses and embrace thought and reason. Nowhere in that does it say "God Hates ****" on any billboards or picket signs. My "higher power" doesn't hate anyone or anything. So stop telling me that because YOUR religion says I'm evil, I'm evil. It's simply not true. MY religion (which counts for just as much as yours does) says I'm not. There goes argument #1.

2. "It will lead to the collapse of modern society!" Is your heterosexual network so tenuous and fragile that something like gay marriage could destroy it? I don't know how it is in the states, but in Canada and Netherlands and 11 other countries around the world, gay marriage or some equivalent has been around for a while now. Is Canada burning to the ground? Going through civil war? No? Canada's still the same as it was before? Still the beautiful, sweeping land and the much-more-open-minded-than-their-southern-neighbours people? Canada still has order and law and structure? SHOCKING. And here I thought gay marriage was supposed to rock the foundations of society. Canada doesn't sound like its foundations are being rocked. Your argument #2, the "collapse of society" argument, gets laid to rest NOW.

3. "It will lead to people marrying their entire town, including everyone's pets and favourite electrical appliances!" - Can there be any more stupid an argument than the "slippery slope"? Did giving women the right to vote prompt anyone to take their chihuahua in to register? I'm going to do some very basic math for you.

Marriage = Marriage, regardless of the genders involved
Polygamy =/= Marriage
Polygamy =/= Gay Marriage
Polygamy =/= Incest
Gay Marriage =/= Incest
Incest =/= Straight Marriage
Straight Marriage =/= Paedophilia
Paedophilia =/= Gay Marriage
Paedophilia =/= Polygamy
Paedophilia =/= Incest

Now that I've got the math out of the way, let's review. You can't compare homosexuals to paedophiles, because it isn't the same thing. You can't compare them to polygamists, because it isn't the same thing. You can't compare them to people who commit incest, because it isn't the same thing. You CAN compare them to straight people, because it's the same thing. And you can compare one marriage with another because it's the same thing. Marriage is a legally binding arrangement between two people who intend to share their lives with each other. It is not an arrangement of having a harem, bonking your sister, or bonking your neighbour's kid.

So, argument #3, the evil and menacing Slippery Slope, gets squashed. Now can you TRY to come up with something different?

Since I have given my opinion on the in-game issue. I will make one last comment on the out of game issue...

How does one believe or is expected to believe that a system that is "By the people, for the people." only works at the whims of a select few? That if a vocal minority lobbies enough and has enough money that it can have it's way despite the concensus of an overwhelming majority? That such minority is given the free right to lambast anyone who says no and derail common sensibility.. Define 'corruption' please?

On the same note: What is a "hate crime?" I haven't heard too many examples of people being killed because someone liked them. Now, before my words are selectively read and twisted to mean that I am somehow defending gay bashing.. Please know that I would personally like to beat gay bashers with my Louisville Slugger, they also offend my sensibilities. Why, does one dead body hold more value over another dead body for the simple fact that he or she decided to kiss george/gina? That your dead body is somehow protected more by the law than mine due to your choice of bedroom activities is heinous. All murderers for whatever reason should be punished with the full weight of law.

I have said earlier that there are no black rights, women's rights, or gay rights. The reason is, there are human rights. You have the right to challenge whatever you see as the issue of the day. The US Constitution is a living document. Our government is a living progressive system. Blacks don't have to sit on the back of a bus anymore. Women have the right to vote (as well they should.) However, I find it hard to equate your "suffering and inequality" to either of these examples. In America, you have the right to be told "no". Live with it.

Noone ever said life would be fair. You choose to do whatever it is in life you do. Don't think it's a choice? You still can choose whether or not to act on it. Beyond that choice, you also have the choice to choose what truly defines you as a person. You cannot choose what people do or do not accept however. That is only a choice you can make for yourself. The idea that everyone has to accept and understand is ludicrous. You have the right to be heard, but don't be angry when people don't want to listen. Oh, and on a personal note, don't challenge their sexual security or their sensibility. Calling people names (although effective for the meek) is still childish.

Hmmmmm....Wow, this thread's been active!

Now, I'm always one to pick up a dead horse, and beat it with a redwood...Sooooooo....

GodHatesFags? Actually, I have it on good authority he doesn't. He actually puts 'em into gigantic bouncy balls, and ricochets them off of the Grand Canyon walls until they giggle.

Oh, wait... My bad, he does that to *everyone*. May God strike me down if I--

CRACK-A-BOOM!!!

<<This post has been shut down temporarily due to an over-abundance of silliness. Please check back later to see if it actually starts making sense>>

Meanwhile, please enjoy our dancing yellow dots:

Believe it or not, Polygamy IS a type of marriage. the www.dictionary.com definition:

Marriage in which a spouse of either sex may have more than one mate at the same time.

See that first word? Marriage. I have just as much right as you to complain that polygamy should be in the game because that's what I believe in, if I did believe in that. Your belief is that gays can marry, it is someone's belief is that they can have more than one married spouse. It is NO different.

Oh, and RazMasters, if you actually read the bible yourself, it does say that homosexual activity is evil.





Also, Christians are supposed to believe that sex is only to be performed for procreation, and since homosexuality does not accomplish that, it is a sin.

I do not believe for one side or the other, nor do I care. I'm just trying to prove that it is SE's game, and they are doing what will please the majority, because that will wield the most profit. Stop bringing real life topics ingame, because they do not apply.

And you get no benefit for getting married ingame. "Oh, it's the principal of the thing." You got along fine before marriage was implemented, and for thousands of years that their have been homosexuals and marriage, homosexuals have lived perfectly dandy without marriage. So... quit yer' ********

Okay, you took WAY too much out of my post that isn't there and WAY too much out on me. I won't rate you down or anything, as you have brought up very good and valid points, just ease up, please. I can see why you'd get sick of those arguments (expept the third one, as it is a very valid argument. It is a form of marriage, why are you trying to stop me from doing so? I just want my rights...)

1. First off, where'd I say any of that? No where. And, I don't expect you to follow my religion, or make you follow my religion's rules, as you choose not to be an active emmber of this faith, which is fine. But that doesn't mean you should discriminate against me or my beliefs either. Although you as an individual have not, many gays and lesbians I have met are against religion in public AT ALL, and suuch, which is violating my rights to freedom of speech (but that's a whole nother topic)> Also, please don't ever cite "Spereation of Church and State", or I will rate you down a notch for stupidity. Someone as smart and intellectual as you should know better, I hope. And, as the last poster stated, the Bible does say so, wether you've read it or not.

2. Again, I didn't say this in my post. I said that bveing TOO liberal is very bad, as it gives TOO much leeway for the law to be distorted, as it usually is with gay marriage. In states like California, they ignored a law passed in the 60s banning gay marriage and issued licenses anyway, which is very illegal. This brings me to my Government thing mentioned earlier. Judicial branch, like courts, are meant to interpret laws already in effect, and are overstepping their authority to be basically making laws and choosing which ones to ignore, as with the Califrnia incident. Also, places like Canada and England and those places are very liberal (favor gay marriage, against guns) and have banned guns. Te crime rate went up. Shocking, right?

3. You missed my point, as Polygimy is definatly a kind of marriage. What's to stop me from marrying several people? You? Who are you to interfere with my life? Will it effect you? Don't make me go by your rules! I just want my rights! There, I used every argument gays have been using to get their rights to try and get mine. What's to stop me? How is it "bad"? Will it make society crash? I rest my case.

Now, please read my post and anser it directly, and please stop taking words out of my mouth. Thank you.

EDIT: Arguing point to above poster.




I think you said it best, gays "suffering" isn't as bad as women's or blacks, as blacks had to fight for the very rights of everyone else, to be recognized as a human being and be treated with respect and given a fair chance. Gays have all of those rights except the right to marry and get such benefits. This is nowhere on par with what the blacks had to endure for hundreds of years. Therefore, anyone saying the gays are suffering much like the blacks is just an idiot, as any person nowadays wouldn't survive on a southern plantation very long, or be able to stand up to ridicule and torment and hate such as blacks have had to put up with.

Edited, Tue Aug 10 19:08:43 2004 by Bravelionheart

Is there a law outlawing gay couples from sitting with each other on the bus?

Is there a law that systematically registers gay couples and keeps them from living with each other?

Is there a law outlawing gay love?

Do gay people have to use separate bathrooms and drinking fountains?

Are gay people prohibited from voting?

Where is the inequality? That's what i want to know. Th law doesnt keep you from loving whoever (or whatever) you want to love. Lets leave sex completely out of the picture for a moment please... The notion that marriage is an equality issue is proposterous. If an 86 year old lady who survived her husband feels that her pet cat Mittens is the only love in her life.... Will we give her the right to marry Mittens? Will peter the celibate gardener be allowed to marry his favorite redwood? Perhaps I can marry my Lexus ^^ Yay! tax breaks for equality!

Heterosexuals have the right to marry the person they love. Gays do not. Heterosexuals have the protections of the law against discrimination. Gays do not. Heterosexuals have all sorts of legal protections ranging from parental rights to property rights to medical rights in their relationships. Gays do not. You're absolutely right when you say "no gays have equal rights". I realise what you were TRYING to say, but your overall non-mastery of the English language means you're saying something entirely different. So, I have to say, I agree with your first sentence. However, I hope you get eaten by a rabid horse for your second sentence. ^_^

Edited, Tue Aug 10 19:21:24 2004 by MarcusD