On the subject of in-game same-sex marriage....Follow

On the topic of homosexuality in Japan, I've done a bit of research a while back, and this is how I understand it (don't be mad if I'm wrong, but from what I read this is what it came to):

As we all know Japanese as a whole are focussed on exactly that, the whole. In Japan it's natural for homosexuals to live a discrete sexual lifestyle with those of the same sex, but cover that up with a lifestyle that benefits the country. That is, people would visit brothels or somesuch to fulfill their sexual needs, but have a wife/husband and children waiting for them at home when it's all said and done. As such, there's no 'gay movement' in Japan, because people don't see themselves as gay or straight, instead they are merely attracted to men or women. That's why there's no push for same-sex marraiges, because it wouldn't benefit the country for people of the same sex to marry. However, Japan is much more accepting for same-sex relationships, as long as the people keep it in this sort of framework.

So I think this would very well explain why SE neglected to let same-sex marriage happen in this game... it's just not an issue in Japan, because nobody (as a whole) seems to want it.

(Again, don't flame me if I'm wrong, but this is what the English-language website on this topic all say)

*EDIT*

A lot of this has to do with the history of same-sex desire, such as between Samurai and in other points in Japanese history.

Again, the reason there is no 'gay rights' movement in Japan is because this is in conflict with the "Japanese collective" which is more vital (in many ways) than the individual.

Anyway this is probably the best site talking about all this stuff... I'm just a culture nut and love this stuff... http://wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersections/issue3/mclelland2.html

Edited, Mon Aug 9 05:19:31 2004 by Mochimochi

Well being one for not debating stuff, here's my view. I came to terms with the fact I'd never get married before I was even out of high school. It was about the same times I came to terms with the fact that I would never accidentally create an offspring (already watched a few people from my HS get knocked up good). When I found out i couldn't marry my bear in-game you know my reaction? "Meh"

That being said, why is it that aside from the few IO know on my server, all the ****** I find are on the FAIRY server?


Oh and one last comment... Next time you see some 14yo saying things are "F***ing gay" respond how I do, in say or shout depending on where they said it...

"I'm f***ing gay and that f***ing offends me!"

They NEVER reply :)

Edited, Mon Aug 9 05:28:58 2004 by tekkub

Edited, Mon Aug 9 05:29:29 2004 by tekkub

Well, I'm on Fairy because when I started playing a lot of my online friends had already started on Fairy, so they got me a worldpass. Unfortunately, at this point I'd sell my soul to switch servers. Fairy is SO bad. >_<

Eh..I can't give up Saboruto. He's a 51 BRD, 37 WHM, 23 THF, 17 BLM and a bunch of other stuff. I don't think I'd have it in me to start over. Maybe if there's a world emmigration any time soon I'd consider moving, but not at the expense of the last year's worth of work.

I might take you up on the offer, but right now I'm having too much intermittent fun levelling my bard. :D

Anyway, I'm off to bed for the night but I'll check the thread again in the morning and replay to everyone's responses from work. ^_^

I somehow respect your point of view, however, put yourself in a heterosexual point of view. Not everyone (including myself) wants to see two Hume male being married, Elvaan or whatever you call it. That fact is just disturbing to me.

I, by no way, oppose gay-marriages in real life, but I strongly frown upon the style of life homosexuals choose. It is not fitting for this society and the acceptance of this new concept by a population mainly formed of workers eating ignorance for breakfest will take a long time to sink in.

I personally think the gay movement is a step for our society concerning the area of 'equality', which is still seriously flawed and unfair.

But my real point is this: I have no desire to see homosexual marriages in a video game. It will cause too much controversy, too much disent from dolts and immature children, and I really don't think SE wants to be the FIRST MMORPG EVER to introduce the concept of same sex-marriages in a video-game (especially coming from a very traditional Japanese company).

I do respect other gay people considering I think of them as equals having chosen a different, but somewhat regrettable style of life, compared to mine.

I hope this post hasn't offended since it wasn't its purpopse.

Dynastey:

Courageous for being the first real dsieenting voice here, but dang it, this is dragging it right into the realms that makes these discussions dangerous.

First, the main reason (if I read you correctly) is that the image of same-sex couples in a fantasy setting is not what you want.

Second, the appeals to real-life considerations putting this thread into touchy ground.

Neither your respect for gay people in real life, or the "regrettable choice" of being gay IRL, has no bearing on the issue of same-sex marriage in Vana'diel.

I am of the camp that wishes SE never instituted marriage at all.

Quote:
When you consider all the gender- and sexuality- and relationship-approval that heterosexuals get every day, it's totally unfair.

See me rubbing my fingers together, thats the world's smallest violin playing cry me a river. :)

Im not trying to be rude by saying that just trying to add a little humor up front, but in all reality life isnt fair. In all love and respect to you its just not, theres no law by anyone that says life must be fair.

And if supposedly there was a law, what would it base fairness off of, especially if any idea of the existance of God is thrown out?

There are two ways in which homosexuality can be viewed. One includes in light of religion which i will get to shortly and the other without religion.

1. Without religion: You would be perfectly right in one sense that you have a right to live how you want. If you wanna be gay or straight its up to you. No one could tell you differently especially if there is no moral law provided by religion.
In that case im all for you going for whatever contents your heart.

However, if there is no religion or God, then we then next look to nature for how it governs. I guess you would call this a more naturalistic view, because no where in nature will you find any animals having gay sex. Why? Well if for no other reason than the fact that that species of animal wouldnt last long if it did.
Homosexuality will always be dependent upon heterosexuals having sex and making babies, or at least a female egg and a male sperm. Thats the way it works, it just does. Men and Women are equal in essence, but not in roles. They each have defining characteristics which make them a man or a woman. Society tries to blur this by saying Men and Women are equal in all things, which even from only a natural standpoint is a ridiculous statement.

The danger you should be warned to this is that if life is just relative, then there is no such thing as fairness either. For what is fair in your beliefs wont be in mine or anyone elses.
In other words, should a law be passed by society saying that homosexuality is forbidden, and even punishable by death if found guilty, then you frankly cant argue against them for passing the law. Sure its not fair to you as you believe, but your beliefs are just relative anyway.

2. In light of Religion: I am aiming this response more at Pixelfiend and his post to help develop this.

Quote:

-because males lack the proper anatomy to bear children. And that has nothing to do with religion

We're talking about a union of two lovers. So, love is wrong if the two people sharing it cannot concieve a child? When people bring up this topic and religion, I like using this quote.

Quote:"I think god appreciates it even more. Because he created you in his image. At least that's what I was always taught. And since God is love; and God doesn't make mistakes; then you must be exactly the way he wants you to be. The way he intended you to be. And that goes for every person; every planet; every mountain; every grain of sand; every song; every tear and every ******. We're all his Emmett... He loves us all." - Ted Schmidt


I know QaF doesn't represent the entire gay community, but it's still a good show ^^

btw - need to interject this, i'm atheist.. I just like using religious quotes, scriptures, etc.. against ignorant people who like to manipulate their metaphoric messages into real life actions


Thanks for establishing that men and women have differences and that this is not a religious based assumption. Frankly i enjoy it when atheist use quotes about religion like they understand it.

First to ask this, if your an atheist then what gives the definition of love? Where does your selfawareness come from? Who has rights? and what is a right? Taking atheism to its logical conclusion, that a world without God, or religion, or a transcending law taht we must abide by, then all of these words mean nothing as well as love and hatred.

But what about in light of God. That quote is correct in many ways by Mr. Tim. According to the Bible we are created in God's image, male and female in his image. God is love and he doesnt make mistakes. God created Adam, and then Eve to be his wife, setting up distinct roles in the concept of marriage. Adam and Eve equal in Gods image, yet given defined roles. Thats all very true.

HOWEVER, youve left out Genesis Ch 3 in which man falls into sin, by disobeying God. Hello!!! Hello in there!!! Knock knock. This is where we screwd up, this is where because of us falling into sin, we like to do things against the God of love. Right after the fall you have the first murder. Sin has taken hold and it has wrecked all of human history. Men murder, cheat, steal, lie, commit adultry even homosexuality.

However, sin is no excuse to ignore what God has called us to be. To be like him, to be in his image, and to be perfectly abiding is his law that has been established. Yes God is love, however he is also HOLY and without sin. So there becomes a problem. If God is Holy and just, and we are sinful then we cannot be like him, and we are subject to whatever punishment he seems worthy. It doesnt matter how much he loves us at this point, because we cannot commune with the God of the Bible on such grounds. Scripture will tell you that, and tell you that the wages of such sin, the sinful life that we live, condemns us under God's law. We are under his wrath, not love. God gets angry when you dont obey and will punish you, he has every right too.

Sounds pretty bleak for sinners doesnt it? We are all going to hell, whether we are homosexuals, murderers, theifs, liars etc. If you live in sin, any sin you stand condemned. Homosexuality in light of the Bible is just as wrong as adultry and any other sin.

God wont sit up there on his throne going your pretty good, you can come along to heaven. Does a judge let a convicted murderer go for being good most of his life except this one time? No he still passes the just sentence for the crime. Because of God's holy and just nature, which the Bible is clear about, he must judge accordingly to our sin. You must pay the penalty for your crime. That penalty is death and eternal hell according to the Bible.

So whats the point? The point is is that just because we have sinned and are in a fallen state, doesnt excuse us from still abiding by God's law. Claiming God doesnt exist doesnt excuse you either. You still just as accountable. If marriage by him is a man and a woman then that is what is required of us. If homosexuality and adultry are condemned by the law, then we should not do those things and certainly not be given equal status with what is right.



Now im sure this is where people think christians hate gays and others. Christians walk up and say hey what your doing is wrong! Stop that! Your gonna go to hell for being gay!

But if someone hated you and despised who are, and believed you were going to hell for it, DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD TELL YOU??
Does a father tell his child not to steal because its not a good idea, or that he hates his child? NO its because he loves him.

Christians and the Bible dont hate gays. They hate sin, and there is a huge difference. Because also in Genesis Ch 3, you find that God right after man falls, provides a promise of a Savior. One who can pay the penalty of sin. Christians stand for what they believe is right and just in this world, because they want you to rest in this grace given by God. That yet while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Christianity is about grace and love.

Rated up, both of you. Death, while I strongly disagree with your views, thank you for having the courage to come and express them and help spark a proper debate on the subject. When 30 people have already picked one side in an argument, it's really difficult to pick the other side. For that, you have my highest respect. /bow

Now, as much as I would enjoy jumping into a rebuttle of your post, unfortunately it's 10:30pm here and I really HAVE to get to bed or I'll be useless at work tomorrow and there'll be a lot of very angry computer users out for my blood. I promise I'll respond in the morning.

As a side note, I wonder if I should start adding a "karma meter" at the bottom of each post I make. I think it'd be pretty fun to see how quickly my karma ebbs and flows up and down, back and forth... I'd better stop before my karma makes me sea-sick. ^_^

Anyway, thanks once again to everyone who has posted thusfar and to everyone who will be posting later. /cheer

This is very sad sad thing for one reason i know of. First off, i am not for or against gay marriges and personaly feel no empathy for homosexuals or those who scream they are ruining the moral fabric of society. I don't feel anything because nommatter what i felt on the issue, i'd still be talking out of my a**.


The reason this topic is truly sad because when square first introduced marrige in the game they aimed it for the home market. In japan the society is not so stricly based on traditionalism as it is if you dont fit in, dont scream for attention...no matter what you are, your living in the majorities world. American and Europe are exact polars in this repect, we speak up if anything rubs us the wrong way. There are millions of exceptions to this rule, but there is no answer from looking the other way.

Now for the only answer to this question;

There is no answer! Square-Enix can not turn back time to remove the marrige feature in this game...and it certanly can not remove this game from all markets outside of japan...so please just stop bringing up a topic that cannot be solved in a form that would be fair to everyone, and that is the point of this tread right? to ***** that it isnt fair for everyone. Like some said before; even if they did add it, it would be too little to late because the very fact they have to add it.


You cannot claim that this topic dosent overlap RL when nommater what, any argument in any direction is nothing more than a reflection of Real life.

Im a lesbian female, so i think it would be wonderful if same sex marraiges were aloud...but to me it's imply a game and im not worrying about it at this time.

I'd take the legalising of same sex marraiges in our countries than in a game anyday

Sage,

Here goes my attempt at intelligent discussion. While I do not agree with your position or homosexuality in general( You guessed it I am a Right Wing Conservative Christian :) ) I am not going to tell you that you can't choose to live your life the way you want to.

I agree with all that have said that SE would have to intentionally leave same sex marriages out of the game. I don't know if its cultural or what, but they obviously made the choice to do so.
If it were just adults who played this game, seeing same sex marriages in the game wouldn't make me hate/quit the game or the players of the same sex who married in the game.
I can see why someone who was gay to see same sex marriages in the game as people like to insert some real life personality into their fantasy character(s)( I do like to help which is why I am Whm among other things, the other thing I like is inflicting damage LOL so hence RNG and BLM :) )

My only concern would be as a parent, though I don't have kids yet but will likely have them in about 2 years (at least that is the plan). I wouldn't want my children to see that in a game, as that is not what I would be teaching them as a value. Now I know you don't agree with me there, but that is my right as an American as much as it is yours to teach the values that you want to teach. I am sure the argument could be made that if I don't want my kids to see something like that in a game, that I shouldn't let them play the game. That's true but it isn't any more fair that I would have to withhold my children from the game than the fact that they left same sex marriage out of the game. I wouldn't be opposed to them not including marriage at all. Then there would be no need to debate the issue.

I wouldn't call myself a Bible Thumper, just someone who is following what he believes in. Here is where I get that...Please don’t roast me :)

Genesis 2:20-24

But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,

"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, [4] '
for she was taken out of man."

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

Kudos Sage for speaking your mind and believing what you want to :)

That’s my 2 gil ;)

Sercian