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Paladin lulls don't workFollow

#1 Jan 19 2004 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Last night on a LDoN adventure my level 22 pally tried lulling the mobs, no I admit I am very inexperienced at doing this but something is wrong. Everytime I cast lull on a mob all the others aggroed on me. This happened a few times and some of my party died, needless to say I was very unpopular. The thing is if I am doing something wrong I would like to know. Can anyone give me some advice or point out what I am doing wrong. Any advice at all would be appreciated.

Raknruin 28 warrior of the Clan Dreadtail, stromm.
Sadywen 22 Paladinof the Whisperers of the windsword, stromm.
#2 Jan 19 2004 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
Deleted: It occurs to me that I have little of value to add to the subject.

Edited, Mon Jan 19 10:10:22 2004 by Natdatilgnome
#3 Jan 19 2004 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
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The others aggro'd simply by you casting lull? Weird. It is possible to get a "critical failure" on a lull, where the mob not only resists the spell but aggros as well, but those are the exception rather than the norm.

Lull spells check against the mob's magic resistance (and level, probably). If the mob resists the spell, it does a second check against the caster's charisma to see if it aggros.

But, again, that should be the odd occassion. How exactly were you using the spell? Typically, you lull the mobs you don't want pulled* and hit the one you do want. I only ask because I have seen people lull the mob in question and then hit it.

I can speak with certainty that the bard lulls were working fine as of last night. So it's not a global lull issue. I reall think it sounds like a user issue (no offense) so any extra info you can give might help us help you.

*Yes, I know you don't have to lull a whole room, etc. I'm keeping it simple
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#4 Jan 19 2004 at 11:04 AM Rating: Decent
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I only ask because I have seen people lull the mob in question and then hit it.


This does work as well depending on mob placement. Sometimes it can be more efficient to lull one than many. Of course it mustn't path neaer an un-lulled one or you have a problem. The lull line reduces the radius at which a mob will aggro if another mob it is social with is aggroed. It also reduces the radius that a mob "expresses" it's aggro so that mobs close anough to aggro normally will not.

Where Paladins can have trouble is in level of spell and mob. Lull however should work up to level 30 mobs and a 22 should not be meeting those in an LDoN

Another thing is that it reduces aggro radius - it doesn't abolish it. I've seen people walk over a pacified mob and then wonder why they got aggro. Perhaps they confuse it with mezz.

The description of Lull says (15/30) I know 30 is the mob level it works up to. Is the 15 the radius? Cleric Pacify for example is (1/55). If it is then that could explain the problem - a much lesser reduction in radius.

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#5 Jan 19 2004 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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Ok, I had always assumed that social aggro was determined by the second mob. If you have two mobs 20 feet away and they have a 25' social aggro radius then when you attack Mob A, Mob B will notice you. Lulling Mob A wouldn't help because Mob A isn't calling for help, Mob B just notices his buddy getting picked on. If you lull Mob B then Mob A gets attacked and Mob B just sits there going "La,la, la... I can't see yooouuu!!"

Am I wrong here?

Regardless, I think it's safe to assume the original poster wasn't trying and l33t lull tricks and something deeper is afoot

Edited, Mon Jan 19 11:30:26 2004 by Jophiel
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#6 Jan 19 2004 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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What happened was this. I was nominated main puller, main luller and main tank. I approached a room of say 40 radius which contained 4 mobs and my plan was to lull them lrft to right leaving the furthest right for me to pull. But as soon as i cast lull on the furthest left they all aggroed on me. This happened a few times without any of my fellow adventurers offering any advice. What would everyone else had done in that situation. My group consisted of a pally, a cleric, a enchanter, 2 rogues and a ranger. I am getting scared to use the pally now in case other peole die.

Raknruin of the Clan Dreadtail
Sadywen of the Whisperers of the wind sword.
#7 Jan 19 2004 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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Raknruin, also keep in mind that even after lull, you should always pull from the the mob that is closest to you, in corner far from all other mobs in room. If you are pulling in Mmc (butcherblock), you'll be surprise on how small the agro radius of the mobs are. A lot of times you don't even need to lull, just pull from corners etc.

If lull is needed, just lull one or two that is close to the mob you are about to pull. There is never a need to lull the whole room before pulling a mob. Fewer lulls -> faster pulls and less mana used and lower chances for critial lull resist to occur.
#8 Jan 19 2004 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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What I suggest you do is go to a level appropriate regular dungeon where you can practice using your lull spell, preferably somewhere you can zone if things go amiss. The lull line of spells is one that has been continually tweaked by the devs (including the most recent patch IIRC), so any advice you get here may well be out of date. Better to learn confidence in using it in non-pressure situations.
#9 Jan 19 2004 at 1:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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But as soon as i cast lull on the furthest left they all aggroed on me.
Sure that was Lull you were casting? Smiley: wink

I agree with Pat; go find a place to test it and play with it in relative peace. If it happened every time you tried to use it, something sounds fishy.

As for what I've had done, I'd have told the cleric or chanter to lull if they wanted to complain. Or for the chanter to mezz the adds. That's what they're there for, after all Smiley: smile Heck, with a chanter to mez, I'd rather have the puller bring back some small trains. Lvl 20 LDoNs are a joke anyway and need some livening up.. hehehe
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#10 Jan 19 2004 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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P.S. From your description, it doesn't sound like you are doing anything wrong. I can confirm that the lull line does work, I use it quite often, and very rarely get the critical resist you seem to be getting often. You could be very unlucky, or you could be doing something wrong.

It is possible you are proximity aggroing as you try to lull (in LDoN I find that I get aggro just by peeping into a room sometimes).

One other thing: any group should be able to handle more than one mob. It is reasonable to have a plan for any group to deal with 3-4 mobs if necessary. Overpulls will and do happen. If your group can't handle this, it is either a bad mix of classes, or has many bad players in it. There are many different ways of dealing with overpulls, mesmerise, root, pet tanking, hate kiting etc etc, and as a last resort evac. In fact when I pull in LDoN, I warn the group I intend to pull 3 at a time, confirm they are ok with that, and then I go ahead and pull multiples. As long as the group can handle multiples, this is much quicker than pacify single pulling.
#11 Jan 19 2004 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Haha, Jophiel and my planets are in alignment today.
#12 Jan 19 2004 at 1:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Next to stun, Lull is the best tool a pally has available. Don't give up on it. My main char is a pally and I've used lull in LDoNs many a time.

My advise is to find some mobs in a safe location and practice a little until you get comfortable with lulling mobs.

Two things which may be effecting you:
1. The level of the mobs - They should be close to your level. If you're in LDoN, they're probably blue to you, right? Shouldn't be a problem in this case. Lulling reds though, you're asking for trouble.

2. Charisma - Lull is charisma based. Just like a chanter or a bard, a pally needs to have good charisma. It doesn't need to be real high (I think mine is 120), but if it's extremely low you will get fails more often. If you're wearing a full set of crusty (like I used to be), look at trading it out for something different.

Hope this helps some.
#13 Jan 19 2004 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
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The Lull line of spells is designed to reduce aggro radius, not eliminate it. The spell line increases in strength as follows: Lull, Soothe, Calm, Pacify. As the level of the mobs gain in strength you will eventually be required to use a higher level spell in order to have any effect. I believe Lull stops working somewhere in the low to mid 30's, Soothe 45, Calm 55, etc...

Like any spell when cast the mob has the chance to resist the spell. If the mob does resist the spell, a second roll is done to see if the mob agros and attacks the caster.

When you cast a Lull type spell the agression radius is decreased around the mob. Mentally draw invisible circles around each mob and you have the general idea. If an angry mob enters within the aggression radius of another mob (and the mobs are sympathetic to one another), then the second mob will instantly become agressive as well. Hello train!

As a good warrior the trick to good pulling is a little strategy:
  • Study the lay of the land and room carefully before pulling. Can you use the features to your benefit? Narrow passage ways and gates are great decreasing the number of mobs that can attack you front or side.
  • Be very careful where you are standing when Lulling and pulling. If you get to close to any of the mobs you stand a chance of instantly aggro before you can Lull. Get to know the range of your spell, and know approximately how far back you can stand.
  • When casting Lull make sure to do the front and sides first and then working your way to the back. This will allow you to move up a bit (since the aggro radius is decreased) when casting Lull on the back mobs.
  • Know how long each spell in the Lull line lasts. Soothe lasts a little longer than Lull, hence you may not need to cast it multiple times
  • Simple concept: Death from a distance. When pulling make sure that you are a considerable distance away from the mob. Make sure you communicate with your spell casters, for if something goes wrong you want to make sure they have enough time to cast Root or Mez.

  • Last side note: Archery

    Sometime in November Verant made changes to archery that you should be aware of. Previously if you missed a mob it would automatically aggro. Post the change now if you miss you must be in aggro radius in or to get the mob's attention. Since paladins are capped at archery skill 75, we tend to miss ALOT. You might want to split the pulling duties with a ranger. The paladin cast the spells and the ranger pulls.

    Another change with archery at this same time was targeting. If you attempt to shoot at a target and another mob enters within ranger, there is a chance that the other mob will instantly be targeted (it chooses whichever one the computer thinks is closest). I HATE this change, for you can suddenly pull a target that you never intended. If two mobs are real close to each other it is better to Lull them both and then pull. If you don't and the computer switches targets on you, you might wind up hitting the Lulled one and then the non-Lulled one also agros.
    #14 Jan 19 2004 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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    While I don't know about lulls at your level (my pally was near 40 when LDON came out), I can tell you soothe/pacify range of spells for us and clcs are much in demand for pulling in LDON and groups without them need to have crowd control ready. Having said that, agro ranges inside LDON are quite tight compared to regular dungeons in my experience. I remember getting agro from 4 mobs after opening the first door in Sand Elf LDON that I didnt even see (cant see worth a hoot there with my dwf for some reason). I have had only a few fails on soothe or pacify attempts and normally only get the target agro if I do, I can only think that the one you failed on's path led it through the other's range and you picked up a train. I have been on over 160 LDONs and haven't seen many problems with lull/pacify lines. Bigger problem (though very rare) comes if puller has undead damage spell next to lull and accidently hits the wrong spell which happens once in a while (puller usually appoligzes to the group which is why I know it happens). I agree with the poster above that groups need to be ready to deal with adds from failed lulls or anything else - main job of my chanter in the group is crowd control if something goes wrong. Single pulling is an art that takes practice, hang in there and you will be popular.
    #15 Jan 19 2004 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
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    The Lull line of spells is designed to reduce aggro radius, not eliminate it. The spell line increases in strength as follows: Lull, Soothe, Calm, Pacify. As the level of the mobs gain in strength you will eventually be required to use a higher level spell in order to have any effect. I believe Lull stops working somewhere in the low to mid 30's, Soothe 45, Calm 55, etc...


    Just correcting some misinformation here-
    Lull (clr 1 pal 15 enc 1) maxes at lvl 30 monsters- 30 radius
    Soothe (clr 9 pal 30 ench 8) Maxes at lvl 40 monsters- 15 radius
    Calm (clr 19 pal 49 ench 20) maxes at lvl 50 monsters - 5 radius
    Pacify (clr 39 Pal 51 Ench 39) Maxes at lvl 55 monsters - 1 radius
    Wake of Tranquility(clr 55 ench 52) Max at lvl 60 monsters- 1 radius- LONG recast time, area effect
    Pacification (clr 65 ench 62) Maxes at lvl 65 monsters-- 1 radius

    As you can see the level limit should rarely be your problem except at lvl 29 maybe and at lvl 60+ for paladins (note that lvl 61+ paladin pulling is not very good at all aside from root pulling). The problem you had I think was the 30 radius on Lull. That is a very minimal reduction in aggro radius so most likely they were simply too close together for it to work. You would be better off telling your cleric to get off his/her butt and use Calm to drop that radius to 5.

    Quote:

    Last side note: Archery

    My archery skill is 0 at lvl 61 and I do not own a bow. You have spells.. use them. Annul magic or cease work great for pulling. I almost always use stun as it gives me some aggro from the beginning to keep the monster hitting ME.


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    I find it funny this is your sig and had so much poor information in your post.

    edit: I forgot about wake of tranq

    Edited, Mon Jan 19 18:29:36 2004 by Jarlo
    #16 Jan 19 2004 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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    I'd like to add that it really sounds like you were unwittingly in agro range of a closer mob in this case. Casting lull alone should not agro a mob (except very rarely on a critical failure). Thus, it wasn't the casting of the lull that did it. Since you say you hadn't done anything else, then I have to conclude that you were within agro range of one of the mobs in the room.

    One of the tricky things about agro radiuses, is that they get checked once a tick. This is why sometimes you can run right past a mob without generating agro (if you time it just right). Ok, most like "run near a mob", but you get the point.

    I've found that a lot of times, the doorway of a room in LDoN is within agro range of one or more mobs in the room. You just can't see them. Thus, you could very easily have been sticking your head into a room and been in agro range. You don't know it, and the mobs don't react immediately because the "check for people I don't like near me" process hasn't been run yet for the closest mob. You then cast your lull and while casting, the nearest mob agros. The other mobs in the room are all within social range, so they agro as well. This could easily appear as though you got agro from casting the lull spell, but really had nothing to do with it.

    Lull has a pretty short range. Usually, you need to lull the mobs nearest the door first just to get far enough into the room to lull the rest (I also know you don't have to lull an entire room, but you get the picture). Try using different camera views to look around the corner into the room you want to pull from. Lull is not line of sight, so you can cast around a corner once you have a mob targeted. Find the mob hiding just inside the room and lull it first. Then step in and lull a couple more near him. Then pull that nearest guy. Always pull any mob that'll agro to the doorway first since that'll save you haveing to lull him every time you pull from that room (saving time in the long run). Also, since lull still leaves mobs with a decent sized agro radius, it's really critical to pull the nearest guy first anyway. You don't want him pathing anywhere near anyone else, or you'll get a train.
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    #17 Jan 19 2004 at 5:49 PM Rating: Decent
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    Thanks to everybody who has replied and helped me out with this dilemma. All the points have been taken on board and I will incorperate them in future. Once again thanks and good hunting.
    Raknruin 28 warrior of the Clan Dreadtail
    Sadywen 23 paladin of the Whisperers of the wind sword
    #18 Jan 19 2004 at 7:49 PM Rating: Good
    Just to add some confusion.

    I have seen some very odd things happen in LDoN.

    There was the example of a level 59 Pally (who I have known and played with for more than two years and have the highest respect for) who simply could not break the first room of an MM adventure (same thing was happening that Raknruin describes). We put it down to the mix of levels in the end, we had 58 through 64 people in the group, but average would have been well over 60.

    This group was made of people who had played and raided at the highest level and we spent some time trying to sort it out as we could not believe what was happening, in the end just put it down to a bug.

    On the weekend Celeni was in a similar sort of group in an LDoN MM adventure, we had a Cleric so she was trading nuke for nuke with the wizard (Oooh I just love being 61 with a full array of 1000 point nukes, lol).

    Celeni suddenly started pulling aggro big time. Now, she has enough HP for this not to be a major issue, but it began to bug thre cleric and MA. So she slowed down nukes Smiley: frown. Still got aggro. She stopped nuking and began DoTing (waste of bloody mana but the MA was getting iritated chasing the mobs around.) Still grabbed agro. She went and sat in a corner and did absolutely nothing, and still grabbed aggro!!

    By this stage I had run out of ideas. I did absolutely nothing stood at the back of the group and would still have the mob leave the MA and come for me. WTF??

    I think every now and then you just get an adventure with a bug of some sort.

    Regarding Lull/Paci. Aesten, my young cleric has had Calm resisted and pull the room once or twice, but never Pacify.

    #19 Jan 19 2004 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
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    Paritcian

    It is possible you are proximity aggroing as you try to lull (in LDoN I find that I get aggro just by peeping into a room sometimes).


    Wow I agreed with Pat ....omg



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    #20 Jan 19 2004 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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    Celeni suddenly started pulling aggro big time. Now, she has enough HP for this not to be a major issue, but it began to bug thre cleric and MA. So she slowed down nukes . Still got aggro. She stopped nuking and began DoTing (waste of bloody mana but the MA was getting iritated chasing the mobs around.) Still grabbed agro. She went and sat in a corner and did absolutely nothing, and still grabbed aggro!!

    By this stage I had run out of ideas. I did absolutely nothing stood at the back of the group and would still have the mob leave the MA and come for me. WTF??


    I've had this happen before. My necro would be standing behind the group as a pull comes in. I'm not actively doing anything, just standing there waiting to mez any adds. Only one mob came in, group settled onto it, I still haven't cast, sent pet, sit down or anything - still just standing there. 5 seconds later, at 50% health, the mob just runs over and punches me in the head for absolutely no reason. WTF?
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    #21 Jan 20 2004 at 4:15 AM Rating: Decent
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    Wow I agreed with Pat ....omg


    As you damn well should.
    #22 Jan 20 2004 at 4:25 PM Rating: Decent
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    Regarding agro on caster doing nothing, I had the same thing happen Sunday with my chanter - great group and puller had agro and rogue backstabbing, so I didnt cast and just stood there looking for adds to mez. All of a sudden the mob runs over and bashes me silly while tanks try to grab agro back. I didnt move, cast or anthing and I was in the back row of group. I could understand if i had been casting, but was conserving mana (but not sitting so that wasnt it) and just watching. Thought it strange and moved on until I saw the post.
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