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Runeforging for DW FrostFollow

#1 Jul 21 2011 at 6:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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EJ says Razorice main-hand, Fallen Crusader off-hand. Tails said she's been getting better results with FC MH, Razorice OH. In theory, you should have just as many OH attacks as MH attacks, so the up-time on FC shouldn't matter. The only difference then would be that you are getting an extra 2% of a full damage MH strike vs 2% of a 62.5% damage off-hand strike.

Has anyone else tried swapping their runeforges and done better than MH Razorice, OH FC?
#2 Jul 21 2011 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
Not quite. I said that OH is Cinderglacier, not Razorice. Otherwise, you have it right.
#3 Jul 21 2011 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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So you are main-handing Fallen Crusader and off-handing Cinderglacier?

That shouldn't be returning better numbers unless you are including AoE in your calculations, where it should definitely give better dps.

Razorice is put on the main hand because of that 2% damage bonus. Your auto-attack should be a significant portion of your overall damage (2nd, actually). A 2% buff to that is nice. I honestly don't know if it will buff Obliterate as well. But, if it does, it's even better (since oblit should be your first source of damage). The 10% frost debuff is nice too, of course, since it'll buff the rest of your damage (all of which is Frost, except for that tiny bit of shadow).

Fallen Crusader is a no-duh one. But it doesn't give any particular bonus to being used on the MH, like Razorice, so it's usually put on off-hand now. The lower miss chance shouldn't affect it's up-time.

Cinderglacier should be a solid dps loss in non-AoE situations. If you get a proc with KM, you can put out a pretty nice Frost Strike. But keep in mind that the 20% buff there is actually only 10%, because the boss doesn't have RI on it. And only some of your FSs are going to get buffed (and some HBs instead of Frost Strikes), so you really shouldn't be seeing it ever perform better than Razorice.

AoE is a different story, because your damage comes from Frost Fever and HB, and you can't spread Razorice to each mob. CG-buffed HBs would give you a much better return in these situations.
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#4 Jul 22 2011 at 7:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Cinderglacier does work better when you have multiple targets, and that's probably enough to give you an extra 8-9% over the course of a whole heroic. Did your guildie say it worked better on single-target boss fights, too?
#5 Jul 25 2011 at 12:09 AM Rating: Good
He was testing it in raiding I believe, and the testing we did together was at a target dummy.
#6 Jul 25 2011 at 7:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Since the shadow damage portion should be negligible, it's a trade off between an extra 2% to MH auto-attacks and 10% to all your FSs/HBs versus 20% to only some of your FSs/HBs. I'm not sure how that could make a 9% total DPS swing, I'd have to see a log or something. Does your guildie ever put anything on WoL?
#7 Jul 25 2011 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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Razorice also gives 10% to your Frost Fever.
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#8 Jul 25 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
Yeah, he's in the main progression raiding group in my guild. I'll ask him if he's still using that runeforging set up, and post a link to some logs of him using them.
#9 Jul 25 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Razorice also gives 10% to your Frost Fever.

I think Cinderglacier applies it's damage bonus to the disease ticks after the strike, too, so I was including that with the Howling Blasts.
#10 Jul 25 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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AstarintheDruid wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Razorice also gives 10% to your Frost Fever.

I think Cinderglacier applies it's damage bonus to the disease ticks after the strike, too, so I was including that with the Howling Blasts.


Ah, that's possible.

Note that I'm aware this isn't the best method, but I just checked one of the top Frost DKs on WoL. Fight was Baelorc.

Oblit- 21.9%+13.8%
FS- 19.4%+12.1%
HB-8.9%
FF- 4.3%
BP- 2.5%
Razorice- .7%
PS- .3%

Unholy Strength had an 87.2% uptime.

I can't find CG's proc chance anywhere. That's lacking in this discussion...
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#11 Jul 25 2011 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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I'm seeing reports (from Wrath) that it is 1 or 3 PPM, lol.

Either way, 6 buffed attacks a minute DEFINITELY won't overcome the loss. It's proc chance would have to be much, much higher.

The only exception I can think of is if there is an encounter-specific mechanic that is letting him line up already buffed abilities with CG's buff. But I know nothing about firelands, so can't help there.
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#12 Jul 30 2011 at 1:02 AM Rating: Good
Logs Okay here we go. These are from last Monday and have a decent amount of fights in it. DK is Voivoide. He ranked 22nd on the Lord Rhyolith with that set up, so I think he's doing pretty good with it. :-)
#13 Jul 30 2011 at 10:58 AM Rating: Good
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Well, it's easy to see with one glance why this is the case. HB is making up 47% of his overall damage, followed by Frost Fever and then Frost Strike.

He was clearly on AoE duty--it's no suprise at all that he was getting better returns on Cinderglacier. Any normal fight, or fight in which he is on the boss, would see better returns from Razorice.

In 5 minutes and 27 seconds he got 17 CG procs, which is just over 5 ppm. Not bad, but definitely not good enough to beat out all the perks of Razorice. And it'll only get worse as you get more haste.
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#14 Jul 30 2011 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
That's true, Rhy is a big AoE fest. My DPS gets a lot higher than everyone else's when I'm on add duty too. I was just using that as an example though. Check out any of the other fights that aren't AoE fests, like Shannox or Baleroc.

What you're saying does make sense Digg, but this guy is obsessive with his testing. He wouldn't switch something without knowing for sure that what he was doing was better. Not only did he test it out in a raid, he also tested it out on a dummy, and then had me come to a test dummy and had me test it out too while he kept track of the numbers. And my DK's gear is waaay worse than his lol. I'm still wearing a few blues, where as he's decked out in heroic T11 gear and Firelands gear.
#15 Jul 30 2011 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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Well, he's switched away from it for the more recent fights, so I have to use older data. But he was still using it when he downed Majordomo, so I'll use that.

In that fight, in 6 minutes and 43 seconds, he gained 14 procs. That's a pretty bad ppm.

That's 28 buffed abilities.

Now, his FS was his hardest-hitting ability (which means he was likely stacking mastery, but he logged out in his PVP gear so I can't check). According to EJ, this is no longer top DPS (but the drop isn't TOO high if you really want to do it). But that doesn't matter right now.

He used, in this fight, 57 Frost Strikes and 87 Howling Blasts. Let's assume that all of his CG procs were used on FSs, since that's the most generous dps buff with his setup.

I don't even need to do any real math here. He would have had 28 CG-buffed FSs. And 29 unbuffed FSs. Meaning, his total buffed damage would have been higher with Razorice, because CG failed to buff over half. And this is just considering one ability, not taking into account the HBs, FF and melee attacks that RI also buffed.
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#16 Jul 30 2011 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
That's odd, I asked if he was still using the runeforging set up we had tested last night, and he said he was. Oh well.

So what do you estimate his buffs would have been with Razorice? I'll admit, I really don't like doing the math for theorycrafting myself, I tend to rely on what different websites or people tell me. Probably not the best attitude to have, but I really don't like math and I'm not any good at it anymore.
#17 Jul 30 2011 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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Well, the log didn't show any CG procs on Rag. That could just be an error though. I didn't actually look at the dates on them, though, I just assume they happened after you downed Majordomo.

But let's see (all of this is on Majorodomo, which I assume has no quirks that would influence things).

His FS damage (assuming all CG procs were used here) was: 28*(1.2x)+29x= 1636104.

So his average FS damage (x) is 26,135.8. Razorice would have allowed those 57 FSs to each be buffed by 10%, so he would have gotten 1638714.66 damage from FS (instead of 1636104). That's a 2610.66 increase (lowest of all, since we assumed he was able to use all CG procs on FS).

From HB, he would have seen 1,454,148.3 damage, instead of 1,321,953. A 132,195.3 increase.

From FF, he would have seen 420,095 damage, instead of 390,996 damage. A 29,099 increase.

From his main hand, he would have seen 1304912.12 damage instead of 1276604 damage. A 28,308 (and note that this is assuming that Razorice will not buff the increased damage from itself.

All in all, it would be 192,212.96 increased damage. Which is a 2.3% increase. And note that this is assuming the best case scenario for his CGs, which is that all of them are used by FS. If he ever wastes one on something else, like HB or Chains of Ice, then his dps will drop even more. If Razorice will buff it's own melee-frost damage bonus, then it is higher. If Oblit (and PS) are buffed by the increased melee damage, then it will be quite a bit higher.

And all of this is assuming that he is using a mastery-heavy build that prioritizes Frost Strike. If he were to use one that EJ predicts offers the best damage (prioritizing Oblit and auto-attack), then the damage bonus might be even higher for RI. Though it's also conceivable that the RF would be less influential in that situation.

[EDIT]

This is partly why I find it so unbelievable that you could see a 9% increase from switching runeforges. And I mean ANY runeforge (except MAYBE FC). That's a massive dps buff. If we are talking a whole run, then it isn't surprising, simply because you'll spend a lot of time using AoE on trash packs and on some bosses. But if we are only considering a boss fight, that's an insane dps buff. Few of the best talents in the game actually reach that high. Maybe Annihilation buffs Oblit, Frost's strongest attack by 45%. But that still wouldn't reach a 9% increase.

Edited, Jul 30th 2011 3:33pm by idiggory
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#18 Jul 30 2011 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
Fair enough. I guess I'll go buy myself another of the troll BoE mages (they're really cheap now) and stick Razorice on it and just use the CG one for AoE.
#19 Jul 30 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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Feel free to test more, and evaluate each boss fight. There very well may be fights where CG is better. For example, suppose a fight requires you to be at ranged distance from the boss due to a mechanic, but still lets you beat on something to get CG procs. If you're able to toss buffed HBs at the boss, it might make up for the lower dps when in melee range.

And if you run with a warlock, you don't need to buy another weapon. Assuming your guild won't mind summoning you back from Ebon Hold that is.
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#20 Aug 15 2011 at 9:56 PM Rating: Good
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Is Cinderglacier always a DPS gain over Razorice in 5-mans?

I'm running with Fallen Crusader (OH) and Razorice (MH) at the moment, but my Death Knight is barely 85 and doesn't raid.
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#21 Aug 15 2011 at 10:13 PM Rating: Good
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If we are talking overall, then probably. CG buffs AoE skills, RI doesn't. CG is useful even if a mob will die in 20 seconds. RI isn't.

RI performs much better on bosses though.
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