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Dungeon Finder ... woeFollow

#1 Jan 13 2011 at 4:37 PM Rating: Excellent
Waited 40 mins to join an "in progress" random, only to get 1 boss attempt in and group split. No trash, nothing was killed while I was there.

Yes QQ.

But I'm begging for something to change. Perhaps a 5 minute window, for the replacements, to return to front of the queue for suffering a broken group, in situations like my experience above?

Just an idea /shrug

Edited, Jan 13th 2011 5:37pm by Azaza
#2 Jan 13 2011 at 5:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Start using trade chat and guild to make 5 mans again.


Or roll a tank or healer.
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#3 Jan 13 2011 at 5:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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bodhisattva wrote:

Or roll a tank or healer.


I found an interesting secondary issue doing this as well. I had quick-leveled a DK to tank as shortly before Cata, and still now, we seem short on (active) tanks.

Yes, I get instant queues.

I have not yet once run a full instance on him or seen the beginning boss(es) of any dungeon on him. Every single queue I've gotten has been "in progress."

Not necessarily a terrible thing unless you are looking for something specific from an early boss.

I have seen a lot more groups forming (or trying to form anyway) in /trade. I've ignored trade for so long I had forgotten that was even an option. Will look into that once again perhaps.
#4 Jan 13 2011 at 6:25 PM Rating: Good
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Heroic PUGs have been pure hell these last couple of days.

The bads are starting to get 329 ilvl gear.
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#5 Jan 13 2011 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
Only bad pug I had involved a tank who insisted on using no CC and complaining that it worked on non-heroic Stonecore so it should work there. Votekick, get a new tank in 30 seconds, bob's yer uncle.
#6 Jan 13 2011 at 6:33 PM Rating: Good
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I'm a failPUG magnet.
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#7 Jan 13 2011 at 6:39 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
I'm a failPUG magnet.


I have a working theory that the better your own gear is, the more likely you are to be placed in a group with people with poor gear. Probably some balance measure or something.

That's why I like groups stacked with guildies. Easy plow!
#8 Jan 13 2011 at 7:39 PM Rating: Good
Sigh, yeah - its getting to the point of guild or nothing for me the pugs are getting so bad - too many peeps who've taken a few months off and/or never did vanilla and have zero concept of CC and /or have forgotten that they aren't in 25m gear anymore and thus shouldn't be helpful and pull the next two groups while 75% of the current pull is still breathing.

Toss in the rampant ninjaing (the healers are the worse - they think that they won't get booted because the group needs them apparently) and my "I" key is gathering some serious dust these days.
#9 Jan 14 2011 at 12:55 AM Rating: Good
I'd say the opposite with the exception of one group the other day (in which I got kicked from even though I was in the same Guild as the tank - real smooth guys~). I've been having pretty smooth PUGs - running with guildies to add the the mix whenever possible has definitely helped, but I've healed/tanked a few raw DF PuGs in the last few days that have gone swimmingly.

I am wholeheartedly against the very idea of DF - so I'm a total hypocrite. Then again, it is pretty much impossible now to see most of the leveling dungeons without it, so I suppose I'll allow it. So if we're going to leave it here, someone should change a few things.

    1 -- Multi-tiered Heroics. Sort of like how the 3.3 dungeons had a higher requirement, some current Heroics need this as well. Namely: Stonecore, Grim Batol, and Deadmines. Deadmines is actually pretty easy if you do the encounters perfectly (which is rare), but the other 2 are just plain hard. I'm talking unavoidable damage, or barely avoidable instant-kills every 10 seconds. Talkin' 10kHPS and still having wipes just because of ridiculous 'fire' locations. Talking about a boss that DBreathes half the room, fills the other half with 2 huge snare spots, and makes an Elemental that runs at you trapped in a 5x5 corner against a ledge /jump. These are by no means impossible - in fact I like that they are this hard. But, this should not be fair game for a freshly geared unsuspecting player and it is CERTAINLY not fair to have my 350 geared characters having to heal them.
    2 -- Fix the ever-loving loot system. If a druid joined as Feral - then NO he cannot loot my damn healing robe! No, Mr. Shaman, you cannot take my Stalagmite Dragon because its the first 346 Relic you've seen! Dear Mr. DK, I appreciate that you're in DPS spec but I'm confused as to why (and how you were able to) roll Need on my Leaden Despair - I don't care if it's super neat for PVP.
    3 -- Give a small bonus for a pre-made that has open slots (1-2 extra slots)! This will further encourage people to make friends and play with them instead of random strangers. The fact is, the BEST random groups for me are when I go in and I'm the only one not in the Guild with the rest of 'em. Sure, maybe they didn't have heals or a tank or whatever, but the fact that all 3 or 4 of em are together helps me out tremendously. Now, if a fail Guild goes in, then the fail is multiplied and then they wont get the bonus reward anyways!
    4 -- An APM (Actions per Minute) Meter should be implemented somewhere - the problem is to get true APMs it needs to be client-side so everyone would need the same addon. The problem I'm finding with most fails is that they just aren't playing! They wait 10 seconds after engagement to start! It takes them 5 seconds to react to the fact that they're standing in fire. They just slowly click their spells with their mice depending on which has the most colorful icon. APM =/= All Important, but it is an indicator when someone is playing horribly! Someone who's getting 200 APMs is obviously fudging the system, but at least they're playing pretty hard - although possibly not smart. Someone getting under 80, though, just plain isn't trying all that hard and it would be nice to be able to see this blatantly shown to the rest of the group. And yes, I know about the Activity meter.. it's garbage. My healer always gets last place and my tank always first. Big surprise.


Edited for fail English~

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 2:04am by tzsjynx
#10 Jan 14 2011 at 1:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
4 -- An APM (Actions per Minute) Meter should be implemented somewhere

APM is not a good measure of anything. How would it be calculated? Is me mashing Templar Verdict while waiting for the GCD to finish counted as 15 actions or is the cast just counted as 1?
A melee class with no cast times will always have more attacks used than a caster class who may have to wait 2 seconds for each attack.
A Frost Mage could probably be doing optimum DPS with 40 button presses while a John ****ing Madden Druid might be hitting his buttons like a lunatic to do the same DPS.
Somebody who moves with their keyboard would have higher APM from the button presses than someone who uses the mouse to make the same movement faster and more precise.
I could probably get 20 APM without a second of idle time while Healing simply because cast times are so slow.
Someone who gimps their DPS by doing pointless PVP maneouvering around the target (Kittys and Rogues I'm looking at you) would have a far higher APM than a solid Warrior who gets behind his target and does his job with no fuss.

I hope I have given enough reasons why APM is useless for a game like WoW. It works in Starcraft 2 because APM is an indicator of micromanagement, a very important aspect. Sure, you can trick the meter in SC2 by randomly selecting or moving a unit very fast, but that gimps your performance because you could be doing something worthwhile instead. APM is only useful in SC2 when comparing high level players in high level game, they won't be gaming the meter when their reputation is on the line. Poor players are more likely to do this, in both WoW and SC2 so using an APM meter to determine failure levels is a completely wasted effort.

And finally
Quote:
The problem I'm finding with most fails is that they just aren't playing! They wait 10 seconds after engagement to start! It takes them 5 seconds to react to the fact that they're standing in fire

My eyes work pretty damned well to notice this kind of thing. The number of times a group has wiped and someone has asked "What happened" when I know exactly what happened, and whose fault it is, without looking at a meter.

Edit: Race you to 1000 posts Jynx =P


Edited, Jan 14th 2011 8:39am by EbanySalamonderiel
#11 Jan 14 2011 at 2:03 AM Rating: Good
EbanySalamonderiel wrote:
Edit: Race you to 1000 posts Jynx =P


You're on!!

Also determining which actions count as ticks would be an important aspect, but ALL dps classes now have instant casts, all DPS classes should be spamming clicks as their GCD closes. I guess you're right - it just seems odd because Recount has not been doing a good job of showing me who is fail and who isn't lately... I think it's just because there is so much to do in these heroics.

=\
#12 Jan 14 2011 at 2:17 AM Rating: Good
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If you want to use recount to see who is failing nowadays you really have to use it properly. In Lich King it stayed on the DPS screen and whoever was bottom was a failure. Now you have to check for interrupts, CC breakers, damage taken and even healing done. I have seen fights where I was bottom of the dps by a long way because I spent my time chasing loose mobs, stunning and interrupting them while pausing to throw heals on the tank.

Really the only way to evaluate someones performance is watching yourself. Does the character have a dispel disease ability? Then why are party members forced to sit with a 30 second disease on them? Use a GCD to save the Healer from having to cast 5 of their cheap heals to repair the damage. That is the sort of thing that can easily be seen just by glancing at your raid frames for a second and is far more telling than any meter could show you.
#13 Jan 14 2011 at 2:23 AM Rating: Good
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tzsjynx wrote:
APM =/= All Important, but it is an indicator when someone is playing horribly! Someone who's getting 200 APMs is obviously fudging the system, but at least they're playing pretty hard - although possibly not smart. Someone getting under 80, though, just plain isn't trying all that hard and it would be nice to be able to see this blatantly shown to the rest of the group.


man you'll be in for a surprise when you see that you're never able to break 45 apm.
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#14 Jan 14 2011 at 2:29 AM Rating: Good
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axhed wrote:
man you'll be in for a surprise when you see that you're never able to break 45 apm.


Why wouldn't he?

If it records actions as keypresses and mouse clicks, not triggering an effect (which would be limited by the 1s GCD), 200+ APM is easily attainable.

You see it in StarCraft 2 games. The pro players there are easily sitting at 100-200 APM. Sometimes going above 300 APM on micro-intensive fights. You don't need more than 60 APM to do everything, but if you click something while pressing a key, that's 120 APM right there.
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#15 Jan 14 2011 at 2:32 AM Rating: Decent
Less than 1 Action per second is brain-dead slow.

Depending on how actions are calculated - changing targets, button clicks, movement, etc, APMs should rest at around 100 for everyone.

Even in Starcraft a huge portion of actions are not calculated, and in the opening few minutes I do barely anything with the exception of a scout, and I still manage 80-100APMs average (which is considered n00b). And Starcraft is much more a thinker's game than a button masher like WoW.
#16 Jan 14 2011 at 2:45 AM Rating: Good
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tzsjynx wrote:
And Starcraft is much more a thinker's game than a button masher like WoW.

I beg to differ. I could DPS a boss with 40 APM devoted to my attacks due to the 1.5 GCD I have. Steering with my mouse it is hard to work out how it would be calculated as an APM, a single click takes me as far as I want. I never have to change target, even to cast spells on allies. With a single button press I can move around the boss to avoid floor nasties.

But in SC I might be spreading my marines to minimise the damage of a baneling rush while moving my Marauders to the front to soak the damage. And then I have to micro my Hellions to do as much damage in the mineral line as they can while my opponent is distracted. All the while hitting my hotkeys like crazy making sure my macro back at base isnt slipping and I am building my army and tech structures as fast as possible. Starcraft will always be faster paced than WoW, simply because WoW is shackled by the limitations of being an MMO. Things have to be slower to allow for the inevitable lag/delay in actions. I have 3+ seconds to move out of Void Zones but only 0.5 seconds to move out of a Psionic Storm.
#17 Jan 14 2011 at 3:05 AM Rating: Decent
Psi Storm isn't really meant to be avoided though - consider it more of a Mage's Blizzard in PVP. You have plenty of time to move out of a Psi Storm before taking full damage, just not the front end.

I play SC at a pretty fast pace, but you have to be very careful about what you're pressing. Especially early game, having to select a few UPS and build exactly 4 Marines, 1 Marauder, and 2 Hellions while simultaneously move embattled units to a certain side of a ledge requires immense precision, not just action. 3 G A A A A Tab E E 1 1 MouseMove Mouseclick is much much more complicated and in this regard greatly slows down APMs. Consider you hit those same buttons in the wrong order with a slight error from going too fast: A 3 A A A A A G Tab E E E 1 1. You have told your initial unit to attack which can reset another command, then switched to UPS and built 5 marines before a marauder which will burn up your Barracks with a Tech lab, then tabbed and built 3 Hellions which will come out 2-then-1. In this way, the precision required slows the player down immensely when compared to someone spamming their button for a GCD to end.

3 G A A A A Tab E E 1 1 =/= 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 (with extra clicks causing no backlash)

WOW is definitely easier - PVE anyways - but thats because it's just that. PVE content is and has always been made to be beaten: that is it's sole purpose. In any PVP there is a winner and a loser, this is the beauty and the problem with PVP.

I accept your notion that APM wouldn't be any better of a scale than anything else available - fair enough - but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work at all.
#18 Jan 14 2011 at 4:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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This would be neat tbh.

tzsjynx wrote:
Fix the ever-loving loot system. If a druid joined as Feral - then NO he cannot loot my damn healing robe! No, Mr. Shaman, you cannot take my Stalagmite Dragon because its the first 346 Relic you've seen! Dear Mr. DK, I appreciate that you're in DPS spec but I'm confused as to why (and how you were able to) roll Need on my Leaden Despair - I don't care if [i]it's super neat for PVP


Perhaps change system to MS/OS/GREED/DE. Yes, one more.

As a side note,as gear improves, I'm starting to see pugs carry one or sometimes two bad dpsers through an instance like in good old WOTLK days. Can't comment on bad tanks, I am the tank and haven't really played as DPS at all this expansion yet.
#19 Jan 14 2011 at 5:00 AM Rating: Good
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It wouldn't be difficult to add an Offspec roll, the playerbase wants it, why don't they add it? It is just annoying waiting to see if the healer for my group is going to need the item before I make my own roll. I dont want to greed for offspec obviously but dont want to roll Need against the healer. I shouldnt have to wait to make my roll.
#20 Jan 14 2011 at 6:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Starcraft II doesn't have anything resembling a 1.5 sec GCD, WoW does. You can switch from one unit that's depleted it's energy to another in SC, you can't in WoW. Starcraft has click-to-move, WoW you press keys (or click and hold two mouse buttons). And, when you watch pro replays in SC2, they spend the early game spamming move and clicking just to pad their early game APM. It's potentially a good warm-up, but the early game clicking spam doesn't directly improve their micro.

Feral Druids and Rogues may have a 1 sec base GCD, but we also spend a fair amount of time pooling energy. Being generous, you're not going to get much more than 40 abilities/minute over a decently long fight. Casters will be hovering between a 1.5 and 2 sec casting time, but for the most part have to remain stationary while casting. Count spastic and pointless motion? You'll have bad melee running around just for the sake of running around, tanks twitching or kiting when they don't need to, and the healers that move the bare minimum to get out of the fire so they can get back to keeping you from eating dirt and conserve their mana by only casting when someone actually needs healing will look "bad".

Yeah, this is the dumbest idea you've come up with in a while, and I think that's saying something.
#21 Jan 14 2011 at 6:51 AM Rating: Good
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Sup, Astarin? You're being all angry and drunk lately, without the drunk part.

While I think an APM meter would be nigh useless, I'm sometimes interested in knowing my group members' activity (the Recount Activity tab makes no sense to me). Like that Elemental Shaman who threw 7 Lightning Bolts and 8 Lava Bursts during a 3-minute boss fight.

Good times.
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#22 Jan 14 2011 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
Heroic PUGs have been pure hell these last couple of days.

The bads are starting to get 329 ilvl gear.



People are also getting the wrong type of gear. Druids have the greatest chance to exploit this because technically a tank can have 329 via healer gear, or a Caster DPS could have Melee gear... The 329 is just a bad metric.
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#23 Jan 14 2011 at 8:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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bodhisattva wrote:
Start using trade chat and guild to make 5 mans again.


It seems like they give priority to partial groups over individuals in the queue. For example when a tank drops mid run, the group typically doesn't wait 40 minutes for a replacement, so that partial group in progress must be getting some kind of priority in the queue.

Likewise, it seems like any partial group, even a 3 dps group, gets their random quicker than just a lone individual in the queue by himself.

That's been my experience, anyway.
#24 Jan 14 2011 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Borsuk wrote:
Mazra wrote:
Heroic PUGs have been pure hell these last couple of days.

The bads are starting to get 329 ilvl gear.



People are also getting the wrong type of gear. Druids have the greatest chance to exploit this because technically a tank can have 329 via healer gear, or a Caster DPS could have Melee gear... The 329 is just a bad metric.


This! My pally is in Blues greens scaling from 308-2 pieces of 333. Using Rep gear (Hello cloth healer hands and mail boots) and tossing them in my bag since i can 'technically' wear them they count towards that slots highest ilvl and my ilvl avg. And got 'heroic' ready my actually Avg ilvl is 323.

Me and a Dk friend did this just to see what being undergeared in Heroics would be like. Honestly not that bad, true we had 4 guildies and a pug, But with minimal CC and people that know what they are doing they went down like cake.

First was BRC (H) Easy enough, wiped 2 times while i got the Molten armor right but Overall easy. 2nd was Deadmine (h) Wiped a few times on trash becuase Pug lock failed to inform me they didn't have The fear glyph so had a few 'big' pulls. But overall wasn't THAT bad.

And this is with an unbuffed 125k HP and IMHO in wrath i was a terrible tank. But in Cata i had no issues with threat even with partial raid geared Dps. But take into account i Encahnted my greens have blue gems even in 325 ilvl stuff, Made sure to reforge to hit/exp 'cap' And i use Scrolls since im an inscriber. So 125 UB Hp with Scroll of Fort II and Scroll of Stamina IX (counts as a battle elixer,) And kings or Mark is was at 147/150ish K HP.

Heroics are as hard as you make them or the people running them make them, I know for a fact both my druids and Rogue cant initate kicks more then 1 time a dungeon (which is Bs , ill give someone a fair shot before i try to kick em)

Blizz really needs to implement a Pug rater, After last boss is looted a Box pops up with each member, you can rate them up or down. You are limited to rating only those in your pug once per day and only from those people from the LFD tool that aren't qued together. If Multiple guild members in 1 run Their vote counts as 1 person (To alleviate lol lets us four rate down this person). Once a month this score defaults to 0 to start fresh, maybe weekly.

What does this rating do? Lower rated players when using LFG will be placed in Groups of Higher rated players starting at gradual pace (2highs 2 avg 1 low then 3 highs 1 avg 1 low 4 highs 1 low) If The player with low keeps getting downranked to a certain point even when In 4 highs and a low and haven't received any rank ups Lock them from heroics for the day and only do regulars (can always attempt 1 heroic a day)

I know there might be some flaws in this system but its going to stop those people that just are unwilling to learn maybe incentivise them, Higher ranked players will know that their groups will go better and might have to only help one person, people knowing that they will be rated will be nicer maybe willing to use items to accomplish dungeons faster, Ask before needing on OS.

Its a system that allows anonymity while forcing people to watch their actions.

But it's just a pipedream I know this will never happen.

I just get tired of bads myself and wish there was more competent players. I spent 3 hours wiping in Grim batol on my better geared resto druid (103k UB mana 2100 In combat regen) yesterday morning. And we even skipped the 3rd boss (after 4 party changes). First Boss people kept getting hit by charge (1 wipe) but we made it pasted) 2 Wipes on 2nd boss (moving from flame shield is hard) 3 members leave new - 3 people - 1 wipe tank and 1 dps leaves - 2 more come in tank asks if everyone knows fight and is ready everyone says yes, tank pulls i wipe us (I got grabbed then dropped in 4 pools for a one shot) which everyone says there was no helping (I posted my death log) We one shot it the next time. Clear trash Huntard (Whose in half leather gear with a darkmoon card <-WTF) traps while tank is still marking wiping us, we dont kick but the tank rages, get to 3rd boss I explain the fight wipe x3 even with me rooting the add when i can spare a roots, tank and 2 dps leave, New tank healer and dps come in which i wasnt ready for and i switch to dps. Group is Warrior Tank, Lock, Boomy, Shaman, Tree. Dont really have a ton of slows and i mis time my mushrooms (first time i had to use their slow) cuasing a wipe. 2nd attempt wiped after 2nd set of adds me and the sham had 37% of our dps on adds lock 10% Tell lock pick up your dps sham points out our dmg to his, Lock says "Good for you" and gets himself a boot (I didnt initiate or even click yes/no before it was passed) Get a Dk and one shot it.

Sorry for being so long winded im tired and rambling. :(
PS: sorry for y spelling grammar its to early :(

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 9:53am by BeanX
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#25 Jan 14 2011 at 10:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'll whole-heartedly support an APM metric when they lower the cast time of my heals. Smiley: tongue

BeanX wrote:
Blizz really needs to implement a Pug rater, After last boss is looted a Box pops up with each member, you can rate them up or down.


I'd be happy if there was someway to allow you to group with people you've met in the dungeon finder again. Right now you have a small ignore list, and that's about the limit of it. Imagine if you could both "like" each other and preferentially join them in the queue, or cross-server friend them and join up together. I know all just dreams...

Still if you know you'll group with someone again there's more of an incentive to learn to work together, since it will make future runs smoother. IMO the dungeon finder would be better if it was more like a speed date, with the ever present option of a "let's meet up later." Incentives for good behavior right there.
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#26 Jan 14 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Default
I guarantee I'm at 80APM+ during combat on my Priest and the heal I use by far the most is Greater Heal.

Again 40 is just pathetic. Pathetic. Not moving as melee is just pathetic. Moving just out of range of AoE is the correct way to play. NO tank can tank with under 80APM, why should anyone else have an easier time. Standing and pressing 1 button as Ranged DPS if fail. You're not trying very hard. When you start the game your APM should be at like 15 because theres nothing to press, but when you're 85 there are so many important and benefitial things to do with your time that if you're at 40 you're doing it wrong.

I already conceded its not the best way to keep track of fail. A number of people's ignorance or admittance of laziness has been fun to watch, though XD
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