Rogues of the world, rejoice!

Source: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=89378961&sid=1

Lately, I’ve been seeing a lot of posts about the same subjects – subjects that have been addressed in an upcoming patch – so I wanted to let you guys know where things stood.

The Rogue Situation

We’ve done a tuning pass of many of our dungeons/bosses/encounters to ensure that nothing overly punishing occurs to “melee DPS’ that would lead people to favor ranged DPS over Rogues/DPS Warriors etc.

Also, we’ve changed the NPC cleave mechanic so that it’s now a frontal cone ability rather than a 360 degree chain attack. Sweeping Strikes has been removed from all Burning Crusade NPC’s.
We’re also reducing the Glancing Blow damage penalty for creatures 1-3 levels higher than the player. This will have a significant effect on melee DPS as it relates to endgame melee dps. More details on this at a later time.

End Game Itemization

As we’ve stated before, we made a lot of improvements to endgame gear progression. To put it in perspective, take a look at this Warrior Tanking Breastplate from before and after.

Destroyer Chestguard – Currently
+24 Strength
+22 Agility
+39 Stamina
Blue Socket
Yellow Socket
Red Socket
Socket Bonus +6 Stamina
Equip: Increases Defense Rating by 23
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 16
Equip: Improves hit rating by 18

Destroyer Chestguard – Patch 2.1.0
+21 Strength
+22 Agility
+51 Stamina
Blue Socket
Yellow Socket
Red Socket
Socket Bonus +6 Stamina
Equip: Increases Defense Rating by 23
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 20
Equip: Improved hit rating by 20


”Trash” Concerns

Equally interesting yet non-epic-dropping non-bosses (or “Trash” as he community likes to call it) has been of concern lately on these forums. In all of our 25 person raid zones we’ve made a number of bug fixes and tuning adjustments. For example, the trash should be significantly easier to clear in most cases – and take less time. Also, we’ve lengthened the time between respawn on a lot of the trash. Yes, trash will respawn in some cases. It’s a pacing mechanic and one that works well when tuned correctly. For example, the trash before the Prophet Skeram or the trash before Attumen the Huntsmen or the Maiden of Virtue works well. You get a couple of tries on the boss, and if you fail, you spend a short time re-clearing. Yes, there are cases of the trash respawning too fast or the trash being too difficult or too lengthy. Those are the cases we hope to fix. We’ve also fixed some bugs that were allowing the trash to respawn after the boss for a certain area was dead.

Consumables

We’re making substantial changes to the way certain consumables work . In particular, Flasks and Elixirs are going to undergo major changes. More information will be available later on. We want Flasks and Elixirs to be a part of the game. We want alchemy to be a cool, needed profession. But we want to remove the tedium and cost from the massive consumable farming that’s going on for endgame raiding. We’ll provide more information soon – but for now, expect big changes to Flasks and Elixirs.

Boss Tuning

We’re looking at the boss tuning from dungeons to heroics to raids. Your feedback is being listened to.

To Summarize

We’re making big improvements to the game. Whenever possible, we hotfix changes to get them to you as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, there are many changes that require a patch and cannot be hotfixed. Many of these changes are coming in Patch 2.1.0. The patch will be on PTR’s in the upcoming weeks. You’ll be able to see them there and try them out for yourselves. You’ll also be able to test Black Temple. We’re also looking into ways of making Hyjal accessible on the PTR as well to get more testing on that zone.

I can assure you that we’re aware of the issues you guys are discussing on the boards and we’re listening closely. We’re also dedicated fans of the game ourselves. We play it every day =D We will affect change as quickly as we can. Patch 2.1.0 will be on the PTR soon enough and you’ll all have the opportunity to comment and make suggestions on the changes.

Comments

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Rogues need more!
# Apr 04 2007 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
I myself am a 70 Undead Rogue and I am very happy to hear that things are "starting" to turn around. Before BC, I had no problem out dps'ing most anybody(me Combat spec'ed). But once I got BC and starting playing through I found myself, and other rogues, on the short end of the stick. I have no idea on what server that one hunter said he is looked over for groups. But I have often times been pushed out because either a hunter or shaman said they would come(hunters because they can ranged dps, wear mail, and deal better with aggro-Feign Death; shamans because they can either out dps me, wear mail, and heal in a pinch). I know alot of people have probs in pvp with rogues cause we stealth, but hey if you turn around and shoot us, we die. We are just one step above cloth(not saying much). And we have to melee to really do damage. Where's the justice?? I'm as flimsy as a wet-cardboard box!

*settles*

Sorry, just frustrating that I have to work my butt off to be anywhere near other classes in melee dps when rogues are supposed to be the best(Low armor tradeoff for higher dps).

All that said I would like to see rogues with either more dodge off agility; more crit; or something that lets them wear mail(I'm swinging for the fences :P ).
Awesome
# Apr 04 2007 at 4:43 AM Rating: Default
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339 posts
Good news for me, now instead of dying after 6 seconds of melee DPS in a boss fight, I die after 14 seconds or so. :D
Yay
# Apr 04 2007 at 4:30 AM Rating: Default
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339 posts
Good news for me, now instead of dying after 6 seconds of melee DPS in a boss fight, I die after 14 seconds or so. :D
oh.
# Apr 04 2007 at 1:00 AM Rating: Decent
i read this and was kinda surprized that Rogues were having such a bad time. I just never noticed, i'm also a lvl 70 Warrior and normaly i like to bring a Rogue over anyone for DPS cuz a Rogue and Warrior can work very well together if they do it right. As for Hunters having a hard time that does suck and you should come to Frostmane Allys, i've done lvl 70 Instances 5 man with just me a healer 2 hunters and a w/e else comes along. As for tells i understand i have a LAN room in my house with 4 comps in it and i get Whispers all the time for places even while i'm IN an instance but my lvl 70 Hunter friend sitting next to me only gets. "Lawl need gold for talents LAWL!".

also Alchemy upgrades... Awesome! :D
re: oh.
# Apr 04 2007 at 2:38 AM Rating: Default
Exactly. That's what I get to. ;-P
Hmmm, seems i have almost the same setup @home as you. (Only 2 pc's less. grrr)
I also get the same wisps as you and ur friend.
Oh btw. i'm Horde ftw. ;-P

I also like to work in such a nice grp. Whatever char. i'm playing with (MM-bm Hunter, Fury-prot Warrior, Shadow-disc Priest (second onces are 13 points in it)), when i'm grouping with some friends (Hunter, Shaman, Priest) it's allways lots fun.
And yes, most people I have played/grouped with, often ask me to group with them again. Some even asked to join their guild cause they could use a good player.

Hmmm. Just realize. Most of the time I out dps others, or at least get the agro quite easily off of the tank. lol. Specially with my Priest. K i have to use some manapots, but even when i'm the (main) healer in a 5men grp, i'm most of the time 2nd on the dmg list. (and 1st in healing ofc.) Even that she's still 66 and the others are lvl 68+ hehe

When i'm with my warrior, grouping with a (experienced) rogue is indeed great playing. And it's kinda fast playing...

I also look forward for the changes in Alchemy.

dps warriors
# Apr 04 2007 at 12:30 AM Rating: Decent
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158 posts
I personally would like to see DPS warriors become more desirable. Having been made to respec into a dps warrior for my guild, which works fine in raiding, people aren't exactly keen to have me in 5 mans. To farm some dps gear from black morass etc, i'll have to go respec prot for a few days, more or less wasting 100g (50g to prot, 50g back to fury).

I'm just wondering how much of a difference the changes to glancing blows will make to melee dps.
dps warriors
# Apr 07 2007 at 6:08 AM Rating: Decent
dps classes have two shoes to fill, one is cc. dps wars don't really have cc
uhmm
# Apr 04 2007 at 12:05 AM Rating: Decent
I have a lvl 70 Hunter and atm I have no trouble finding a group, Granted I dont get loads of whispers. Then again its all about a good performance and getting invited back again by the same people and stuff.

I also have a lvl 70 Priest and she gets asked every where, cause healers are alcking on our server. In addition she is an Alch / Herbalist aswell. I have np with mana thistle / teracone. I do have issues getting Ancient Lichen cause its in instances only and generally have to roll for it.

As for rogues becoming more useful again thats good, we have a few very good rogues in my current guild and there DPS does lack slightly cause of the cleave's etc so nice to see this fixed, As they were always a very good Class to have.

My main gripe is the Epic DragonScale stuff U lean at 375, I mean the mats needed are bad... but they dont benefit my hunter either... also making then dragonscaler only means cant sell em :(
Hunters
# Apr 03 2007 at 11:20 PM Rating: Decent
Hmmm. I (again) see nothing about hunters. :(
Since BC came out playing hunter, particularly in endgame, just sucks.
Well, farming and questing is still ok. But when you want to do instances. like 5-men grp. me as a hunter just can forget about it. We aren't wanted.
Hell, i have major trouble finding groups even to get the keys. Some reply's.
No, you are ranged but we need major dps, so warlock or mage is prefered or extra healing.
No, hunters? they are not viable anymore. just roll warrior or priest, the are needed more.
grmpf

hell i also have a warrior and priest @70. I have to play them as /afk and say lots and lots of times no to whispers for beggings to join a instance run.
As for leveling my hunter. He never got any whispers to join a group. See the difference. :S

I Just hope they do something about this issue, that we are more wanted/needed again. That playing endgame with a hunter is (more) fun again.


Ahwell. just gonna level my 36 tauren druid now. He's my alchemist @300 hehe. Gonna be fun leveling him again.
Hunters
# Apr 03 2007 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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114 posts
Well, if you think that the group situation is that much better for other DPS classes then you are mistaken. It's a simply that there are at most three slots for DPS in a five man group (and that assumes that you won't need an off-tank/healer for the instance in question) and basically all nine classes (DPS classes + "other" classes in DPS spec) want one of those spots.

In addition we have a load more people playing DPS classes than we have tanks and healers on many servers. So obviously getting a group is very difficult and people sseking DPS can be picky.

I didn't get asked to random groups on my rogue either while leveling to 70. In fact I only visited instances with friends/guildies for the most part and several times when I joined random groups people wondered whether it would really be a good choice to take rogue along.

As for prefering mages/locks over hunters. Maybe it's because mages/locks can obtain good gear easier or maybe it's because so many hunters (and rogues for that matter) suck, but when grouping with friends I didn't notice any problems with hunter DPS. Only hunters I found lacking were some of the random hunters we invited when we had to fill a last DPS slot.

Selina
Alchemy/Flasks
# Apr 03 2007 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
Probably you misunderstood the post of Tigule:
It is not about giving alchemy or herbalism a boost - it is about changing the importance/access of flasks and thelike for the non-alchemist/herbalist.

What could happen is, that the effects of flasks will be cut or that the availability will be driven to a level where flasks resemble somewhat rarer potions.

In the end any change targeting towards accessibility of items has drastically reduced the costs of the items even if the demand remained the same. A good example would be black diamonds of any type.

In terms of money-making alchemy will probably loose a lot but as long as it changes the game for the better (playability), that is ok with me.
Alchemy/Flasks
# Apr 04 2007 at 2:30 AM Rating: Decent
lol it's nearly impossible for alchemy to lose money-making capability, since it's close to zero already (at least on my server) :D
Rogues, herbs and alchemy
# Apr 03 2007 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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221 posts
Agreed, good start. When my 63 mage can kill the Hellfire Colossus with little effort, but my 70 rogue struggles . . . there is Definitely an imbalance. With TBC, this became a ranged game and that hurts rogues. Not sure how warriors are fairing, but the remaining classes are just peachy so far as having the ability to kite and kill from distance as opposed to proximity. I'm uncertain what the answer is, because if you buff rogues too much, there's imbalance again, but leaving them as-is would be a shame. I don't understand why it's so difficult to obtain balance in this game, heh.

So far as alchemy . . . yay. Mana Thistle is ridiculously difficult to obtain with its limited nodes. Considering its use in protection potions and flasks, the rate of availability to the need is out of whack, hugely. Especially considering old world protection recipes use dreamfoil which spawns in many areas and is much more abundant. It should be the same with TBC protection potions. Terocone isn't much better on my server, particularly considering it's limited availablity by zone and its numerous uses. Primals needed for protection potions is excessive. Motes would be more understandable. Vials increased by an astronomical amount (1 gold became 12 gold for 20 vials). It certainly needs a look to see where it can be brought to a reasonable point; however, again, you don't want to make it Too reasonable. Flasks should still be difficult to obtain, but not near-impossible.
Good start, still need boss fight melee dps boost
# Apr 03 2007 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
Reducing the glancing blow penalty on mobs 1-3 levels higher will not help melee dps on boss fights, it will only help us kill the thousands of trash mobs quicker.

Reducing the 360 cleaves and sweeping strikes is great for helping melee survivability, but warlocks and mages still outdps melee on most 25-man raid boss fights (no, not all). Melee dps still has way more potential for taking damage (even after this patch) and has no additional dps benefit to make that worthwhile.

This is a step in the right direction, but not a resolution.
Alchemy in the spotlight
# Apr 03 2007 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
There will always be people undercutting, because a lot of them are just there to make money to sell online. I'm glad Alchemy is getting a boost, since I've always enjoyed both Alchemy and Herbalism. Hopefully they will also introduce a 28 slot herb bag.

The fact that my main is a Rogue (with Alch/Herb) only makes 2.1 better!

Edited, Apr 3rd 2007 4:27pm by Flyk
Yay!!
# Apr 03 2007 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
I have an Orc rogue & a Draenei Warrior on Icecrown and have taken some flak from ppl who think that I could have picked a better profession like... Leatherworking or Blacksmithing. I like Herbalism and I love Alchemy. Glad to see that Elixirs are getting an overhaul and bringing Alchemy into the spotlight! (Now if some other Alchemists will quit undercutting the AH prices, maybe we can make some decent gold!)
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