Ghostcrawler's Blog: 'Wow, Dungeons are Hard!'

Lead Systems Designer Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street has written an absolutely massive blog entry that focuses on the difficulty of Cataclysm's Heroic dungeons and raids. He covers a lot of topics, but here's one of his main points:

"The bottom line is that we want Heroics and raids to be challenging, and that is particularly true now while the content is new and characters are still collecting gear. They’re only going to get easier from here on out."

Ghostcrawler explains at length why Blizzard thinks that Heroic dungeons and raids should actually challenge players, and then he provides some tips on how you can improve your game. He gives advice for tanks, healers and DPS; suggests analyzing your gear if you're wiping on trash mobs regularly; and mentions that running a hard dungeon with friends tend to be a better experience over a PUG.

Ghostcrawler ends the blog entry by listing Blizzard's mistakes related to dungeon difficulty. For example, he says they should have made it clear that "Heroic dungeons are intended as a destination, not a first step."

The entire post is definitely worth a read, so check it out after the jump and discuss it in this thread in our WoW general forum.


Wow, Dungeons are Hard!

We've seen and heard a lot of discussion about the challenge presented by the Cataclysm Heroic dungeons, and to a lesser extent the raids. I'm not sure this is the kind of issue where we're going to be able to change anyone’s mind on the subject, but I can try to provide more insight into our point of view as well as offer some suggestions for success.

First, let me state that we do hear you. We understand some of you aren’t having fun and preferred the Lich King paradigm, or at least something closer to the Lich King paradigm. We greatly appreciate the feedback and it always makes us sad when players aren’t having fun. We're not ignoring you. We get it. We may not always agree on every point, but we understand where you’re coming from, and we want to try to help you understand where we're coming from.

The bottom line is that we want Heroics and raids to be challenging, and that is particularly true now while the content is new and characters are still collecting gear. They’re only going to get easier from here on out. We want players to approach an encounter, especially a Heroic encounter, as a puzzle to be solved. We want groups to communicate and strategize. And by extension, we want you to celebrate when you win instead of it being a foregone conclusion.

On the other hand, we don't want you to stumble your way to victory. We don't want you to be able to overwhelm bosses without noticing or caring what they’re doing. We don’t want healers to be able to make up for all of the mistakes on the part of the other players. While at the end of the day, dungeons may just be gussied up loot vending machines, we want you to do more than push a button to get the loot.

Ultimately, we don’t want to give undergeared or unorganized groups a near guaranteed chance of success, because then the content will feel absolutely trivial for players in appropriate gear who communicate, cooperate, and strategize.

We didn't like that the Heroic dungeons in Lich King and early Naxxramas had become zerg-fests. It made the rewards feel like they weren't earned. It made all rewards except the best-in-slot items feel transitory -- why enchant or gem an item when you don’t need the performance boost and you’ll quickly replace it anyway? Furthermore, it set the expectation that everyone would eventually earn all best-in-slot items rather than those being rare and treasured goals. It made class abilities feel less useful and interesting. Who needs that crowd-control or survivability talent when nothing is hurting you? Who needs a mana-conservation talent if you’re never going to run out of mana? Who needs a crit talent if your heals often overheal anyway?

Finally, the encounters, even the bosses, ended up having a sameness to them because you could ignore their mechanics. It didn't matter -- in fact, you didn't even notice -- if the dragon breathes or silences or drops a void zone. The fights all felt the same.

In Cataclysm, the Heroic dungeons and raids are intended to be challenging -- and they are, at least until you overgear them.

So what can you do if you find the Heroics too challenging? Here are a few tips and alternatives.

Strategy and Communication

Tanks, you can’t pull and AE every group in a Heroic (again, until you overgear the content). It’s a good idea to crowd control at least one target -- and sometimes two. As long as you have someone with a long-duration and/or renewable crowd control and someone else with a short crowd control such as a stun or even a snare, you should be fine. We don’t have anything like Heroic Shattered Halls, and you don’t need 3 mages for CC. Caster mobs, which are weak but do a lot of damage, are good choices for crowd control. So are mobs that buff other mobs or debuff your group. Don’t waste the CC on non-elite mobs or others that will die quickly. The responsibility for marking and setting the pace often falls upon the tank, but sometimes other experienced players are happy to take the mantle. If you are setting the pace, you need to keep an eye on healer mana. Healers will generally have enough mana to keep you alive in any given fight, but you need to be careful not to chain pull repeatedly if their mana is low. Tanks tend to have good situational awareness and are experienced at reducing incoming damage. Where I have personally seen them get into trouble is when they slip into overconfident “I got this” mode and try to tank too many things at once.

DPS specs often get blamed the most for not knowing what is going on. It should be your business to understand the mechanics of the fights. You’re a member of a team, not a follower who can always rely on someone else to tell them what to do. Which are the spells that need to be interrupted? Which are the void zones that you absolutely must get out of? Which are the adds that must be burned down (and conversely, when should you ignore the adds and focus on the boss instead)? If you aren’t sure, then ask. Almost every group would rather take the few seconds to explain a fight than to wipe because you failed to dodge Glubtok's wall of fire or tried to AE Vanessa’s spiders or didn't understand what "Downwind of Altairus" meant.

Healers seem like they largely understand that Heroics are challenging, and sometimes get penalized when the rest of the group doesn’t understand that. If you feel like you can’t cast anything but your efficient heal or you’ll run out of mana, then something is going wrong with the fight. Likewise, if you feel like you must spam your inefficient heals to the exclusion of all else, then your group is ignoring key mechanics or is just undergeared. Boss fights in 5-player dungeons generally shouldn’t last more than two minutes or so (the last few Deadmines bosses can be longer). If you’re running out of mana because the fights are going too long, that is a problem with the DPS or tank in your group. Gear also makes a huge difference for healers, which leads to my next point.

For everyone, regardless of role, I suggest running the dungeons on normal mode until you feel more comfortable with the pulls. Those runs can be quick, the penalty for mistakes isn’t as high, and you can often still earn a little reputation, cloth, or enchanting materials. As a bonus, you’ll probably make a group really happy if you’re geared for Heroics but helping them out in a normal dungeon.

Improve

If you just can’t make progress and you are literally wiping on trash pulls over and over, it may be time to analyze your gear. The Dungeon Finder's Heroic item level requirement should be considered a minimum -- and remember, it doesn’t look at enchants or gems or even if the gear is appropriate for you. We are assuming an entry-level Heroic player has a lot of item level 333 gear from Twilight Highlands, normal dungeons, or any of the reputation vendors. These 333s are probably mixed in with a few 318 quest greens, but offset by a few 346 items. If you finished the Hyjal quests, you are probably Revered with Guardians of Hyjal and have access to their 346 items. Questing might only earn you Honored with some of the other reputations, but that is easily rectified with daily quests or dungeon tabards (and don’t forget the Tol Barad reps). There are some nice crafted items. No, the weapons aren’t purple, but when you look at their stats, they are quite competitive.

The item level requirement is intended only to keep out players who have no idea what is appropriate content for them. We know you can game it by getting PvP gear or hiding off-spec gear in your bags. Congrats on being sneaky! If you’re sophisticated enough to try and game the item-level requirements, you should be sophisticated enough to know if you can actually handle the content.

Don't be stingy and decide you aren’t going to mess with gemming, enchanting, or reforging until you have epic gear. Note that you don’t have to always apply the most expensive enchants or gems. Gear matters a lot. It increases DPS, survivability, and mana sustainability. Healers who get, say, 1750-1800 Spirit notice that they can go a lot longer without gassing out. Go ahead and get enchants or gems or reforge to get a lot of Spirit. Some DPS specs who don’t reforge hit at those gear levels would struggle a lot as well. The new Cataclysm flasks are fairly expensive, but the Lich King ones aren’t, and there are elixirs and food consumables you can use as well. Archaeologists can even unlock small bonuses in the new dungeons.

Furthermore, once 4.1 comes out, you will have access to more powerful gear that will let you then revisit the content you couldn’t do before. Your Justice points will let you purchase epic items at that point, and Heroics that were challenging will become a lot easier. Players who have raid gear currently are already starting to burn through the dungeon content again, which is totally expected. You’ll get there too. In Lich King, the content patches tended to completely invalidate the previous tier of content. We don’t want players to feel like they need to farm Naxxramas when Icecrown Citadel is out, but at the other end of the spectrum, it was unfortunate that we largely killed Ulduar raiding when Trial of the Crusader came out.

LF3M 9600GS PST

I love the Dungeon Finder. I worked on it a lot personally. It is quite successful at finding you a group. It doesn't guarantee a successful group. It's a huge improvement over spamming trade chat trying to find a tank for your three-rogue party. But throwing together up to 5 strangers and asking them to do challenging content that some of the group may have never seen before is always going to be risky.

World of Warcraft supports a lot of solo play. However, we want dungeons to be a group experience. In fact, we think the game is more fun overall when you play with friends, which is why we put so much effort into encouraging players to join guilds for Cataclysm. Running a hard dungeon with friends tends to be a much better experience. Communication feels less awkward, and everyone is generally more supportive of mistakes. You learn the strengths and weaknesses and nuances of players that you run with regularly. There tend to be fewer loot arguments as well. PUGs have their place -- don’t get me wrong. But we don’t want to sacrifice dungeons being fun and challenging for organized groups in order to have everything be conquered by any possible group. Make sense?

I’ve PUGged the Cataclysm content a lot. So have all of the designers. We want to stay in touch with what players are experiencing. Heroic PUGs are definitely harder than going with groups of people you know, but they aren’t impossible. If things start to go wrong, you might want to take a moment to analyze why they are going wrong before you bail. I do weep for those players who join an in-progress Heroic Rajh attempt (with suspicious player skeletons everywhere), immediately pull without any discussion, and then have the tank leave the group following the first wipe. That’s not fun for anyone and not going to lead to success. These aren't the original Scholomance or Arcatraz runs that could take four hours with respawns. Making a couple of concerted attempts on Rajh is probably going to be faster than going into the queue again.

Mistakes?

We've seen a few threads that suggest that we're too proud to admit mistakes. I find that logic strange, because we do it all the time. Example one: we reverted the 10x honor from Tol Barad pretty quickly. It was a mistake. Example two: Heroic Strike is too dominant an attack for warriors. That was a mistake. Example three: the Lich King Heroic dungeons (and Naxxramas) were too easy to zerg, setting up an expansion-long expectation that purple gear would come easy and often. In retrospect, that was a mistake. We don't at all view the Cataclysm dungeon and raid balance as a mistake.

However, I can name at least three things related to dungeon difficulty that we either did wrong or could do better. We're our own worst critic, and we are very hard on our own decisions.

First, item level is a necessary -- but not sufficient -- hoop to jump through when using the Dungeon Finder for Heroics. We should have also made sure players had at least seen the content on normal mode before. Maybe we should have had Burning Crusade-like attunements. Maybe we should have made the item level requirements pretty relaxed if you’re going with a premade group and much stricter if you’re going with a pick-up group. We’d love to implement (and have some long-term plans that include) better ways to detect if you know what you’re doing other than just the gear you’ve accumulated. Overall, we just needed to state more clearly that Heroic dungeons are intended as a destination, not a first step.

Second, there are only a few level-85 normal dungeons. For a level-85 player who isn’t ready for Heroics but wants to run dungeons, these can get old pretty quickly. Perhaps another way to handle it would have been to have introductory Heroics and harder Heroics. We’ve also flirted with having three difficulty levels before, but that does add an extra level of content to develop and complexity to explain.

Third, the game could do a better job of telling a group why they failed so that so much blame doesn’t fall at the feet of the healer. We talk a lot about not standing in fires, but equally important is the number of bosses that spawn in adds that must be gathered up and/or burned down quickly, or in some cases ignored. We’re also asking a lot of DPS or tanks in those situations, but that information isn’t always conveyed well except through trial and error.

In Conclusion

We do understand that some healers are frustrated and giving up. That is sad and unfortunate. But the degree to which it's happening, at least at this point in time, is vastly overstated on the forums. We also know that plenty of players like the changes and find healing more enjoyable now. Both sides need to spend a little less effort trying to drown out the other side claiming that everyone they know -- and by extension, “the majority of players” -- agree with their point. You shouldn’t need to invoke a silent majority if you can make an articulate and salient point.

As always, we're keeping an eye on things. There are a few bosses that seem responsible for more wipes than the others: Commander Springvale, Beauty, Altairus, and Admiral Ripsnarl perhaps. By the time you read this, you might have seen us implement Restoration druid buffs intended to keep them competitive in raids. We also just tend to nerf content over time because the original players hitting that content have moved on, so we want to open it up to a wider audience.

In any case, we want to ensure that everyone is having fun and enjoying their time with the game, and I hope that this post may serve to some as the "tare" button that helps you zero in on the intended dungeon difficulty scale. For others, just know that we are actively reading feedback. For everyone offering constructive posts and points about their experience, we thank you.

Comments

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Too Many Changes
# Jan 23 2011 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
1 post
My story,

I have been playing since vanilla, I was one of the main tanks in my guild when we were doing 40 man naxx. We did every aq40 boss, including the silly optional ones. I personally assisted 3 tanks in getting thunderfury by running mc so many times my head hurt on both a tank and a healer. 5/9 t3 for my tank, and when wotlk came out and you guys nerfed naxx to the ground i was that guy who still had all the fight mechanics memorized so i knew what was left out of the current fights, lol it was fun to beat up a nerfed naxx, and i enjoyed it very much since it was so hard before.

I quit when 4.0 came out and i had to respec 3 chars all with fully geared dual specs and had to relearn how to play everything. I didn't have the time to do all that. Holy power? Really you had to add that? Tanking became a pain, even on my pally 69696 became a chore because dps could pull so much more easily, on my war shockwave was ok with the stun but rend+tclap not only took too long to apply it didn't do the same threat as just tclap had before, why?

Then the healing, i remember ghostcrawler did a post on the healing forums, i'll paraphrase "during our testing we saw that our tester was getting very frustrated, very difficult to heal until we told them they don't have to keep ppl at full hp to finish the dungeon, then they got happier". What you don't understand is healers have been keeping the group topped off since vanilla, 6 years and you decide to change it, why?

On my druid, i cast regrowth and it last 4 seconds instead of the 20 it used to, why? What is the point of changing that? Only 3 combat rez per fight, sounds like you need to make the fight better rather than change mechanics that have been fine for 6 years. You lost creativity?

What needed to happen to make healing harder was to require more dps per raid, so a 10 man could only afford to have 2 healers and a 25 man could only afford to have 4 healers the rest needed to be dps. And the bar for doing dps needed to be high for heroics and ok for regular. Did anyone ever try to 2 heal 10 man wotlk dungeons or 4 heal 25 man raids? It was hard, and even with our great regen if dps didn't kill as fast as was necessary then the healers would oom, and we would all know it was the dps fault because healers had crazy regen.

Anyhow, good luck with your new design, you lost me, i personally paid for 2 accounts, and my 3 friends who quit because they only wanted an avenue to hang out with me more, is 3 more accounts you lost. I also had my grilfriend's son getting into the game but i cancelled his account because i didn't want to play anymore so he went back to his ps3 and xbox360 games. Not a crippling loss i know but a loss that you should be aware of.
solved
# Jan 13 2011 at 5:12 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Furthermore, once 4.1 comes out, you will have access to more powerful gear that will let you then revisit the content you couldn’t do before. Your Justice points will let you purchase epic items at that point, and Heroics that were challenging will become a lot easier.


There. Level alts. Cancel the subscription. Come back for 4.1. All problems solved.

Like many others, I have a life outside Azeroth, and I am so not spending my entire weekday play time of 2-3 hours (if I get lucky) on a single 5-man instance. Not for some crappy blue items.

I used to be able to do a daily heroic, daily quests, battleground, and whatever else in that time. It felt like I was getting somewhere without missing anything, despite not spending an awful lot of time each day.

Not this time around.

So ***** this.
solved
# Jan 22 2011 at 6:16 AM Rating: Decent
1 post
If they're worried about people breezing through content too fast they could always nerf dps. They could just not drop epics anywhere but raids or with crafting professions. Or, my favourite, for everytime some acts like a rude idiot in LFD, they have one epic permanently deleted from their inventory.
/sarcasm off

Really, the content needed to be made harder, but they've gone to the extreme with it, rather than seeking a middle way.

The changes, rather than encouraging people to play better, has either encouraged them to spec dps or vilify and blame healers for not being able to do their job.

There are tons of articles out there about gaming addiction, specifically pointing at Warcraft, and what do devs do? Make it so you can only accomplish objectives if you are "hardcore".
solved
# Jan 17 2011 at 4:47 AM Rating: Good
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Going with a guild group we managed to clear a few heroics in under an hour each.

I think the point Blizzard is trying to make is that this game really wasn't designed for a bunch of random people to do HEROIC content. Emphasis on heroic.

In Lich King any rag tag group of players could faceroll dungeons almost from the start. Nobody had to think. Players were given the impression to think that anything in the game should be given to them regardless of how terribly bad they were.

Anyone who has seen me comment on these forums will know I am far from an elitist. I lead a casual social guild. I am no hardcore raider. But even my guild full of "casuals" were completely bored with Lich King dungeons within 6 months of their initial release. The main reason being they could fall asleep, pick their noses, or do their homework and still be assured a great reward.

Understandably, people have a life outside of the game. But when the game becomes so easy that there is little to no satisfaction from conquering end game content, many of us start to seriously consider whether the game is a complete waste of time... why am I sitting here drooling over my keyboard for 15 bucks a month?

There was no incentive to become better. People were clearing heroics faster than the dungeon finder cooldown and yet still demanding access to the NEXT tier of raiding gear. Raids that had taken hundreds of dollars developing and hundreds of thousands if not over a million dollars to design (Ulduar) were trivialized by gear players could get smashing their forehead against their keyboard.

People who had spent their time and effort practicing and working together as a team were given the same rewards as those who sat their one evening running some heroic while talking on the phone and watching TV.

My first and last set of gear in Lich King which I was truly proud of was my Tier 7 gear that I earned from spending months in Naxx teaching a bunch of new raiders how to raid. The rest of the gear I got from Lich King came through mindless repetition of heroics that I was sick of a year and a half before I had even gotten the gear.
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Agree
# Jan 11 2011 at 7:56 PM Rating: Decent
19 posts
I agree with the OP and have to ask, if you both heal and tank, do you do any dps? For if you don't you have NO clue how broken the LFG is. Healers and tanks get right in, dps waits for 30-50 minutes. That IS broken.

What Blizzard seems to forget and Ghostcrawler seems to not know, there is a middle ground, we do not have to swing the pendulum from one extreme to another, and doing so makes them look like idiots.

Just as an example the honor points from 180 to 1800 and back to 180.. Are there not numbers in between those? Absolutely not, for evidently they forgot how to count.
Agree
# Jan 11 2011 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
4 posts
Yes, I do dps on occasion on my alts so I know exactly what the queue times are like. And like I said the queue times make sense if you think about it. 25 man raid - 2 tanks, 6 healers, 17 dps. Break that into 5 mans, you can make 2 groups because you have 2 tanks...you'll have 4 extra healers and 11 extra dps. This is how the population breaks down across WOW. Only a small percentage of players are tanks, slightly bigger % are healers and the larges are dps. What do you suggest they do? Making it easier on tanks and healers will not lower the dps queue times...there simply is not enough population, based on the requirements for raiding to support more of those classes. Unless you're willing to have Blizz overhaul the raid comps to need equal amounts of each role, and step up yourselves to fill those roles the queue times will not change.
disagree
# Jan 11 2011 at 6:18 PM Rating: Decent
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It almost sounds to me like they are saying "yea we know people are giving up but who cares its our game and we will do whatever we want." Apparently what they want is more important than what the people paying their salary wants. I won't bother tanking or healing right now on my druid, id rather wait 50 min in dps queue. The fact the DPS queue is 50 minutes shoudl tell them there is a problem few people want to tank or heal. Far as raids go they want to make them overly difficult thats fine that is a great way to keep your hardcore players content. But Heroics, something meant to be done every day once hit you 85, shouldn't require you to have a close group of friends/guildies to get through.

Doing them with a LFG tool doesn't help you progress. You struggle through a heroic with 4 people that you probably will never group with ever again. You learn the mechanics of a boss fight and you do the same dungeon tomorrow with 4 people that might be completely clueless. So now your right back to a 2 - 3 hour wipefest (if the whole thing doesn't fall apart like most heroics I have attempted to do end up doing). LFG tool worked fine before because the content was designed that it didn't take so much effort to get through.

I canceled my account awhile back. I don't plan on playing for awhile as I am bored to death at lvl 85. Everything is either too easy with too little reward (IE regular dungeons, dailies, pvp), or it is too frustrating for me to ***** with (Heroics) and raiding. Its not like heroics are dropping free epics anymore (well the 3 I have actually completed nothing epic dropped).

Blizzard has taken a game that was made popular by appealing to casual players and turned it into a elitest only game. I started playing during BC. I remember hitting lvl 40 about the time the sunwell patch hit. Had no issue with difficulty of the game. Ran heroic BC dungeons, raided 10 man BC dungeons, and of course experienced a good chunk of WOTLK content. I have not been as unhappy with the game as I am now at lvl 85.
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disagree
# Jan 12 2011 at 12:11 AM Rating: Good
Most of your issues are solved by joining a guild. I've used the LFG tool as both heals and DPS and it is a pretty random experience. Sometimes you fly though and other times it is a disaster - Blizzard can't train people not to be idiots.

Guild runs as a rule are so much better and a lot more fun. Everyone in the guild is needing their daily and many need to farm justice badges as well (on mains or alts) do there is always plenty of runs going.
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disagree
# Jan 12 2011 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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Friar RareBeast wrote:
Most of your issues are solved by joining a guild. I've used the LFG tool as both heals and DPS and it is a pretty random experience. Sometimes you fly though and other times it is a disaster - Blizzard can't train people not to be idiots.

Guild runs as a rule are so much better and a lot more fun. Everyone in the guild is needing their daily and many need to farm justice badges as well (on mains or alts) do there is always plenty of runs going.


Yes, well, not everyone wants to join a guild and/or a guild filled with hardcore PvE players, either.

There are some casuals who are decently smart, don't mind learning, but just don't have the time to dedicate to becoming an avid raider, and just wanna do a few heroics here and there, and/or maybe get their toes wet with the first tier of raiding, or some-such.

Hardcore modes are OK, but the non-hardcore needs to be actually worth doing.

Right now, in 5-mans, we have two options:

Normal (which doesn't reward well enough)
Heroics (which are too hard for anyone but raiding guilds)

And I just don't think that's the right direction the game needs to go in, and apparently, a LOT of other people seem to agree, given the 45min+ wait time as DPS.

They need to do one of two things:

1). Make normals reward more. Personally, I think all Normal bosses should reward JP, not just JP from finishing 1 dungeon per day. What is the JP, like 60 or some-such? That's a drop in the bucket when you need 1200 for an entry-level piece of gear. TBH, I think a daily reward should be more like 100, and each boss should give like 20. Heroics should be like 40 per boss, and 180-200 for the daily clear.

2). Just give up, and make Heroics a bit easier to make them more accessible if they don't feel like making Normals reward more.

Also...

Give us MORE DAILIES for different reps. Honestly. There's only _2_ Dailies for Ramkahen, zero for Hyjal, and zero for Earthing Ring. Why? I honestly don't feel like waiting 45min+ per normal dungeon trying to rep up to get my starting gear. I just.... don't. Especially not when a dungeon might give 2k rep, maybe. Heck I don't even think they give that, isn't it more like 1500 for a full clear (Hint: many people skip as much trash as possible)

Equalize the crafting rewards. Okay, if you're a hunter, you can get a i333 blue gun and a pair of blue i333 fists (without using Chaos Orbs). Said fists are also good for Enhancement Shaman, and a MH weapon for a Combat Rogue. I think I remember seeing a fast dagger in there, so Rogues are covered fairly well.

Where's the craftable i333 blue 2H strength weapon? (Hint: There isn't one)
Is there an i333 agility polearm/staff?
Is there an i333 caster DPS weapon?

Why should some classes get i333 crafted blues that don't need Chaos Orbs (which requires you to be able to run heroics), while others get left out in the cold?

Sure, there's the CoC, but eh. You need a 5-man group for that, and there ain't no LFD feature for finding groups for group quests, and sometimes there just isn't anyone there willing to group up for said quest and/or someone who needs said quest.
disagree
# Jan 11 2011 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
4 posts
I both tank and heal heroic instances and I'm not having much problems. Sure, I get the odd group that just can't do the dungeon no matter what we try, but mostly, with a quick explanation of the mechanics we get through the encounter without any problems. I think the biggest problem is exactly what Ghostcrawler mentioned, people are so used to Wrath dungeons where you could play one handed while watching the TV that people are just in shock that you actually have to pay attention now have to think before jumping in.

And no, the queue times for dps are no different now than they were in Wrath. Tank is still instant, healers are 2 mins or less and dps is 30-50 depending on the time of day. It hasn't changed at all, and its how it should be really. In a 25 man you have 1-2 tanks, 5-7 healers and the rest dps. That means when you take the same people and boil them down to 5 man groups it doesn't work well. Think about the population %s of tanks to healers to dps based on this...
heroic dungeons
# Jan 11 2011 at 5:31 PM Rating: Decent
well mostly what i see in these dungeons is i join pug group and tell them i havent done this before and they still dont explain and when i do something i shouldnt they vote you out or in some cases wont heal you. also i believe in some dungeons some of the things you have to avoid are hard to find or see. but most of all a total lack of comunication, when i played everquest i never once did a dungeon or boss mob that someone didnt explain step by step and the results where good. given that a pug is a bunch of differnt level players and skill wise each group cant expect every player to know what to do without communication and when they wipe its easy to point the finger but remember if your pointing the finger you have 3 pointing back. communicate the results will be better its really not a race it is a game and supposed to be fun.
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