The Issue and Consequence of Homophobia in MMOs

Frequent homophobic slurs among the Xbox Live community prompted Microsoft to reevaluate its policies last year. Now advocacy groups like GLAAD are turning their attention toward other virtual communities.

The Internet has positively influenced our lives in an innumerable amount of ways; from the revolution of the standard business model to the friends we decide to go out with on a Friday night, we've come a long way in such a short amount of time. The Internet has forever changed the video games industry as well. As multiplayer gaming gained momentum in the late-90s, players began to coalesce on the Web in virtual communities, ultimately paving the way to the massive-scale gaming networks,  like Xbox Live and MMO environments, we use today.

The ubiquity of online gaming communities comes with a price, though. It's easier to spread bigotry and inflict prejudice in virtual spaces than ever before. That's not to say that problems like these are anything new, or exclusive to online mediums like gaming networks. By middle-school, practically every student in the country is exposed to defamation in some form. Homophobia is particularly one of the most-debated issues in online gaming today; harassment of gay and lesbian gamers in virtual communities is drawing more media attention than ever before, and some analysts believe it's only getting worse.

Online gamers are particularly conscious of the "anonymity factor" of the Internet, which suggests that many people lose natural inhibitions when they're able to communicate anonymously and without consequence. Whether it was addressed to you personally or something you read in chat channels, how many times have you thought, "Who would actually say things like that to someone's face, in the real world?"

Sociologists began studying Internet communication almost two decades ago, when IRC and online message boards were just emerging. As time went on, the technology advanced and spawned the smorgasbord of Web 2.0 and "virtual communities" we use today. Instant messaging, social networking, forums, blogs and online gaming (including MMOs) are so ingrained in our culture that most teenagers can't remember a time without them.

Even so, it's not the technology that's to blame; defamation of one's sexual orientation existed long before video games and online message boards. To a certain extent, it's rather the new and innovative ways in which people have learned to express bigotry and hatred.

A few years ago, Microsoft came under fire from advocacy groups and thousands of angry customers after the "Halo 3: Homophobia Evolved" video fiasco (note: not safe for work). After constantly hearing an endless barrage of homophobic slurs from players in the Xbox Live community, a subscriber decided to produce the video as an experiment. He created the gamer tag "xxx GayBoy xxx" and simply joined Halo 3 matches as usual, without provoking other players or even talking about sexual orientation. Sadly, we probably don't need to explain what he experienced throughout the video, because most gamers have seen or heard it for themselves.

Xbox Live made headlines again when the LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) community branded it as a hostile environment last spring. An Xbox player (referred to as "Teresa" in news reports) was frequently harassed and degraded by other players for identifying her sexual orientation openly. She contacted Microsoft about the issue, but her account ended up being suspended. At the time, the story stirred up quite an uproar, eventually prompting Microsoft to reevaluate their Xbox Live rules and policies and issue an apology to the LGBT community.

Offensive slang and discrimination was prevalent in MMOs long before the era of online communities like Xbox Live, but it hasn't received as much attention as the mainstream console gaming industry. But during the summer of 2009, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD) began taking a closer look at how people were being treated in MMOs.

Last July, GLAAD’s Director of Digital Media, Justin Cole, wrote a popular op-ed for Kotaku; "The Impact of Homophobia in Virtual Communities." In addition to the recent Xbox Live issues, Cole emphasized the fact that these problems aren't limited to a single gaming medium. He doesn't mention the name of specific MMOs that GLAAD has crossed paths with in the past, like World of Warcraft—but he does reveal a few distressing statistics from a 2006 study:

52.7% of those surveyed said the gaming community is "Somewhat Hostile" to gay and lesbian gamers, 14% said "Very Hostile." When asked what forms of homophobia people have seen in the gaming community, here is some of what the surveyed said:

87.7% - Players use the phrase, "That's so gay."
83.4% - Players use the words "gay" or "queer" as derogatory names.
52.3% - Stereotypical representations of gay characters in games.
42.5% - Refusal of game designers to include well-developed gay characters.
49.4% - Invisibility of gaymers and/or the gaymer community.

When asked how frequently players experience homophobia, those surveyed who responded "Always" or "Frequently" equaled 42%. Add in "Sometimes" and it brings up that total to 74.5%. When asked how often those players respond to the homophobia they witness – 50.9% total responded "Never" or "Rarely."

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People will always hate.
# Mar 09 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
27 posts
If you ask me, signing in to ANY game (especially halo) as xxxGAYBOYxxx will get you ridiculed. I find this to be a biased example. If they were ridiculing him solely on his voice or actions, then I would understand. But in this instance they are provoking the teams to insult the player.

You can't make everybody accept gays. You just can't. Look how far the African Americans have come, and people STILL hate them to this day for pretty much nothing. If you're going to get so pissed off about slurs, think about what the African Americans have gone through. They STILL get discriminated against. It will ALWAYS be that way. People will always hate each other, and hate what's different. It's a fact of life. Even if you somehow pass a bill saying that gay people have to be accepted into service and undiscriminated against, it will still happen.

People will also blindly follow religion, and hate you because being gay is a "sin", even though it really doesn't specify anywhere in the bible... and the bible is not a very prime example of good human behavior-isms in the first place.

I support the gay community with my full support and best intentions, but I am being realistic.
I wonder......
# Feb 23 2010 at 4:40 AM Rating: Decent
16 posts
.........if Allakhazam would have allowed this type of discussion to go to the depths it goes if this was say a discussion of the cult that is Islam. The muzzy's would have a fit if this long of a discussion was had on public site discussing their treatment of women (and all the islamic gals thank you NOW chix :-). I bet it would have been gone as soon as someone like me wrote a post like this. Course they can't play WoW in islamic crapholes anyway, so I guess the point is moot. They can only play from free countries.

But it is interesting how long it is allowed to go when it pushes certain agendas, etc.

Like Kelly Bundy said "It wobbles the mind".



Edited, Feb 23rd 2010 3:43am by jimiam
I wonder......
# Feb 23 2010 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
5 posts
Gee ..thx for that relevant contribution towards the discussion
You stay up all night thinking of how you could articulate your point ?
"Civil Right" /snicker
# Feb 22 2010 at 11:22 PM Rating: Decent
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There is no right to not be exposed to offensive speech in the United States constitution. It doesn't exist. You can whine about it all you like, but in the end that's all it is - whining. If you don't like something someone says, ignore them. Words can't hurt you.

Perhaps more people should take to heart the absolute truth that no one else can make you feel anything unless you allow it. Why would you give someone else that much control over you?
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for f*ck sake
# Feb 22 2010 at 10:19 PM Rating: Default
F*CK HOMOS...

i have no problem with gay people... just dont be gay towards me... and quit bitching....
your gonna get judged by people for being different get over it... for f*ck sake
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#darkpoetinc, Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 5:03 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) really,
comparing youself to African Americans
# Feb 23 2010 at 7:35 AM Rating: Good
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darkpoetinc wrote:
really,
I love when the HOMOSEXUAL community compares themselves to the "Blacks"

I'm sorry are you being sold as slaves? Beat every day for being gay? Dragged down dirt roads? Nooses left at your front door? Told you can't vote? Told NO GAYS ALLOWED at a restaurant? Being told POOL CLOSED? Being accused every time a store gets robbed?


Sold as slaves, no. You're absolutely right on that one.

Beaten for being gay? yes, regularly. It is the life experience of many, if not most gay men to have been beaten mercilessly at some point in their life.
Dragged down dirt roads? yes, regularly. Google it. There are FAR too many instances of gay people being attacked and dragged by vehicles and left for dead.
Being refused service at a restaurant? Actually yes. It happens considerably more than you can imagine.

Maybe not accused every time a store gets robbed... but think of how often the gay community gets attacked when there's a child molestation? And this, despite the fact that most child molesters are NOT GAY.

Being refused a rental apartment because you are gay: Happens regularly. And it's LEGAL.
Losing your job because you're gay: Happens every day somewhere in the U.S. And it's LEGAL.
Bars raided and patrons beaten because they're gay: Happens regularly. And gay bars aren't all "dens of depravity". Some are just a nice place to sit and chat with people like yourself, or have a few beers and dance some. And for many gay men, a bar is the only place they have to meet anyone else who shares the one thing that makes them different. It's not like today's society is so open-minded that gay people can meet by coincidence at the office or while shopping. For any hope of meeting a soulmate, for too many, a bar is the last hope.

Killed for being gay? The number of gay people killed simply for BEING gay is too great to enumerate.
Killers getting off because the victim was a gay man?" THAT happens far too often. The accused "had a justifiable reason" for attacking and killing the victim. Yes, in this day and age, a brutal killing can be considered justified in court because of this.

So yes, the LGBT fight for rights and respect has a LOT more in common with the Civil Rights movement than you appear to be willing to accept. No they're not identical. And no one is saying they are. They're saying that they are similar in far too many ways.

Harassed to the point of committing suicide? The teen suicide rate among gay teens is more than double the nationwide rate for non-gays. And most of it is due to merciless bullying, harassment, beatings, etc...



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comparing youself to African Americans
# Feb 23 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Default
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79 posts
Funny cause there are laws against evicting people or denying them apartments and jobs due to their sexual orientation.

And don't tell me the military is one of them cause I can tell you first hand there are plenty of homosexuals serving in the military in all branches, and everyone knows about them but we don't care.

Even that Army Sargent who came out publicly last year is still in the military with his unit!


You can not be refused service just cause your a homosexual. You can sue and sue big. Now if you are making out with your partner like the titanic is going down NO MATTER WHAT SEX THEY ARE then yes you should be refused.

Its just funny when people demand equal treatment when even now in the united states people are not treated equally. If there are places that don't treat you like you should be then make it public that THAT PLACE BY NAME AND LOCATION is doing such. NOT EVERYONE AND OMG .....
comparing youself to African Americans
# Feb 23 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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There are no federal laws protecting sexual orientation evictions from landlords. It is entirely based in the local laws, which not all places have. My state, for example, has no laws protecting us from discrimination. When I was looking for a place with my roomate (and just a roomate in this case) we actually caught some static here and there. The fact we were looking for more than one bedroom helped though.

And as for Don't Ask Don't Tell, well it's just good it's being reconsidered. As much fun as it would be to keep every aspect of your personal life secret from everyone else, lest someone get a wild hair to turn you in when you piss them off. Several thousand troops in the past few years have been discharged due to it. Turning people away that want to serve when recruitment levels are low is mind boggling.

Add to that only about half the states in the country having anti-discrimination laws pertaining to sexual orientation in the workplace. In many places you can be fired just because you are gay or lesbian. Every year congress puts forward a federal version of this, and every year it fails.
comparing youself to African Americans
# Feb 25 2010 at 9:31 AM Rating: Default
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79 posts
once again name someone who has been turned away? Just look up military on myspace or facebook and look at sexual orientation. You will see a lot of them have gay/bisexual and are not hiding it. And yes there are laws. You can not refuse someone a job or housing due to their sexual orientation. Maybe you should of watched that Tom Hanks movie Philadelphia a bit more carefully. I'm 120% sure if you can prove that someone fired/evicted you 100% based on your sexual preference you can wind up owning their ass.

Now lets talk about whats really bias....


Let me go as a straight black man on a gay cruise and see what happens....

oh wait has allready happend

http://www.queerty.com/a-straight-couple-accidentally-boarded-a-gay-cruise-should-they-sue-20091016/

and lets talk about racism...
http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=fMceZREcBFA&fromurl=/watch%3Fv%3DfMceZREcBFA%26feature%3DPlayList%26p%3DDCADB8B44F4AC18B%26index%3D0

Now I agree with my fellow brother getting stomped here. He was running his mouth on how he "herd" this old bastard talking to his buddy on how he should shine his shoes.. but where is the buddy? Then his ho yelling kick his white ass.. Come on man... but then you hear beat that N.. When is it called for? I think pruedujism exist from all sides and no matter what we can do nothing about it. People will always have their opinions so maybe we should just live with them and stop bringing up stuff that will cause arguments that bring BOTH SIDES coverage. The less coverage the less opinions. Pretty damn simple. So lets stop making a big deal out of all this crap and the problem will eventually go away cause people will make THEIR OWN decisions from their experiences and not by just what other people say!


Edited, Feb 25th 2010 10:36am by darkpoetinc
comparing youself to African Americans
# Feb 22 2010 at 5:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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93 posts
If you're referring to my earlier post, I never analogized the historical plight of black Americans to that of the LGBT community.

In response to the claim made by others that the LGBT is supposedly "shouting the loudest" or "parading in the streets," I suggested that the gay-rights demonstrations that you see on TV aren't any different from the civil rights protests and demonstrations by racial minorities and religious groups. I never "compared" the LGBT community to blacks. But I did say that many of the comments I've read here are eerily similar to sound bites and news clips from civil rights opponents that I remember watching back in history classes. I was analogizing the discrimination and bigotry that transcends time, not the social and political movements that necessitate them.
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comparing youself to African Americans
# Feb 22 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Default
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79 posts
Funny, cause your still comparing your treatment cause of your sexual preference over the color of my skin.

I said it before, In other countries its ok to have sex with a girl under 16 and that is acceptable, but in the united states its considered wrong. I agree with that

But you don't see a bunch of @#%^files protest in groups and swear that a 12 year old girl can love a 34 year old man and demand equal treatment!

Many people in the world see homosexuality wrong. How do you expect people to suddenly accept what you are when you can't accept other peoples way of life.

I can't have multiple women. I'm looked down upon if I want to spend the rest of my life with 2 women. The way I see it is that if all 3 of us are happy why shouldn't I?


So 2 MEN or 2 WOMEN can love each other but a woman/man can't love 2 others? If you want equal treatment fight for it on all fronts not just yours!

comparing youself to African Americans
# Feb 22 2010 at 8:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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93 posts
Quote:
Funny, cause your still comparing your treatment cause of your sexual preference over the color of my skin.

Ironically, it's not my sexual preference that I'm defending (although somehow, it doesn't really surprise me that you came to that assumption). I don't think there's anything else I can say to convince you that I wasn't analogizing black Americans with the LGBT community. I was referring to the expression of civil rights demonstrations and protests, trying to allude that any specific community's desire for equal rights should be valid and recognized.
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they always shout loudest
# Feb 21 2010 at 6:34 PM Rating: Default
1 post
people tend to react to strange behaviour. Nothing would be unusual if somebody would just STFU and play the game as it is intended to be. Gay and lesbian manifesting their "difference" at every time and in any way possible , in this case in MMO instead going out and shouting it out on the street - thats what they get for their incorrect and abusive behaviour. The player just plays the game. Gays and lesbians with deflamatory attitude are just treated equally like all other noob spammers - don't make up any story to your sexual orientation. its about proper gaming and MMO is not the place to shout about sexual believes, as the grocery store is.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2010 11:12am by dorelas
they always shout loudest
# Feb 22 2010 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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93 posts
Quote:
Nothing would be unusual if somebody would just STFU and play the game as it is intended to be.

You're right; if players would "STFU" and stop using discriminatory slurs like "that's gay" and "faggot" as part of their every-day vocabulary, this wouldn't even be an issue.

Quote:
Gay and lesbian manifesting their "difference" at every time and in any way possible , in this case in MMO instead going out and shouting it out on the street - thats what they get for their incorrect and abusive behaviour. The player just plays the game. Gays and lesbians with deflamatory attitude are just treated equally like all other noob spammers - don't make up any story to your sexual orientation. its about proper gaming and MMO is not the place to shout about sexual believes, as the grocery store is.

Most of the LGBT community isn't manifesting itself "at every time and in any way possible" in MMOs and online gaming; in fact, many gays and lesbians feel like they need to hide their sexual orientation in-game for fear of being verbally abused and harassed. The example of the Xbox Live player who created the gamer tag "xxx Gay Boy xxx" did so to prove a point about the way the LGBT community is treated in online gaming. This whole idea that gays and lesbians are "shouting it out on the street" usually stems from the occasional civil rights demonstration or protest that people see on TV from their sofas and recliners; how are these demonstrations different from any other civil or religious event, like Christians protesting against abortion, or racial minorities protesting against civil injustices? I've known gays and lesbians all my life, and I still have no idea where this whole idea comes from that "they're all trying to shove it down our throats," or "the only problem I have is when they try to push their ways on me" or "they're trying to convert our kids to be gay." Homosexuality is an inherent trait, not a lifestyle choice.

Anyway, even taking into account the occasional gay-pride demonstrations that have taken place inside MMOs over the years, the members of those demonstrations -- like any other protesters -- expect, and are prepared, to be opposed. But that's not what this editorial is about; it's about all the people who just want to play their favorite game or MMO like everyone else without being subjected to hate-speech and prejudice while they're trying to enjoy a game. They don't ask for it, and they don't go looking to be harassed.

A lot of people think, "What's the big deal? So what if I say 'Damn, we wiped again...that's so gay' or 'Get out of the fire, fag!' Gay people should learn to suck it up and realize we're just tossing around slang..." The problem is that regardless of your intentions, it does hurt people's feelings. But the even larger problem is that it perpetuates and normalizes this kind of speaking, which in turn perpetuates a way of thinking, especially among younger kids whose morals, values and ethics are still developing. It's not about the LGBT community trying to "influence everyone into being gay" as many homophobes would have you believe; it's just about teaching tolerance, respect and the ability to treat other humans with the dignity they deserve. But as long as we keep letting kids think it's okay to use words like "gay" as a generic insult, or casually call someone a "faggot," the problem is going to just keep growing and growing, and the word "gay" will continue to be synonymously ingrained as a negative concept in young peoples' minds (without the benefit of them coming to their own conclusions and opinions naturally, based on education and life experience). And by then, you really will start seeing the LGBT community "out on the street," protesting in your back yard, so to speak. Isn't it easier just to exercise tolerance and treat every person with respect, even if you personally believe they're going to "burn in the eternal flames of hell" or whatever? What happened to the whole "Judge not..." thing?

It's amazing how similar some of these comments have been to archival news footage and quotes taken from people who opposed the civil rights movement in the '50s and '60s; you could basically cut-and-paste some of the comments and replace the word "gay" with "black" and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2010 5:27pm by WaxPaper
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they always shout loudest
# Feb 26 2010 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
I just love how straight people justify their hatred. Pretty sad.


its not how they justify their hatred... its about how they justify their ignorance...

gays have been persecuted for their orientation for many many years... and its still going on today. Not that i say its right or its ok... but its still going to happen tomorrow and for many years after tomorrow...

sure i say "thats gay" but you cant get pissed off cause i used the word.... and if you are idc to be completely honest... cause telling me i cant use a word cause its homophobic... is discriminating against me... if i cant use the word neither can you... get the f*ck over it...

there will always be someone offended for just about anything that is said...

____________________________
...if i piss you off im sorry... i just dont have feelings... so my best advice is, well... learn to love it

...peace...
they always shout loudest
# Feb 23 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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90 posts
I wanted so badly to be done with this topic, but I just had to say thank you for this post (the one to which I'm replying), WaxPaper. It's thoughtful, smart, and surprisingly insightful coming from someone who is not gay. You really seem to get it. I often feel that even my well-meaning straight friends don't truly understand the ways in which society perpetuates homophobia. You've nailed it here. So thanks.

The most important quote: "the even larger problem is that [using gay slang] perpetuates and normalizes this kind of speaking, which in turn perpetuates a way of thinking, especially among younger kids whose morals, values and ethics are still developing."

For this issue, there is no better way to sum it up.

We've seen those here in this very thread who say "I think homosexuality is a terrible sin but I don't think people should be subjected to abuse over it." These folks don't want to be implicit in the crime, but they are guilty of molding a society where this type of behavior is commonplace nonetheless. You can't have one without the other. We all have the freedom to say and do what we want (thanks USA), but those actions have consequences. By choosing to be open about my sexuality, I choose to accept the unfortunate ridicule that comes with it. When you choose to be open about your disdain for homosexuality, you accept a society that is abusive to and intolerant of certain people. That is something you must own, whether or not you choose to care about it.

Ultimately, I can find no fault in the expression of opinion and belief, no matter how much I may disagree. Having said that, you cannot deny the impact those opinions and beliefs have on those who may not quite be of the age or maturity level to hold their opinions passively and without aggression towards dissension. This aggression is what we see in WoW and, in a larger sense, in schools and workplaces throughout the country.

Again, you may choose whether or not to care about this aggression and prejudice. Make no mistake, however, that by demonizing a group of people based on characteristics that are innate, you are subjecting those people to abuse and discrimination for doing nothing more than existing.
they always shout loudest
# Feb 22 2010 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Right, because all of WoW just minds their own business except for the gays. Damn them, always bringing sexuality up!
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How about this
# Feb 22 2010 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
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79 posts
Ok, lets say I'm offended by cursing. So every time the FBOMB gets dropped should I be like, "Hey that offends me!" NO! If I happen to say " Damn this lag is gay!" Isn't saying, " Hey faggot I'm bashing you again!" The terms "@#%^" was MADE for the African man. That word has no other meaning! The term GAY and FAG originally ment other things. If the term NEGRO is politically correct now and no longer slang, then "FAG" and "GAY" are just as legal.


I'm not saying anyone has the right to be rude. And if your not being FORBIDDEN to play cause you are homosexual then what is the problem? Are you still able to play the game? YES! Are you seeing words that offend you? YES but we all see words that offend us. WELCOME TO REALITY.

Is it any different from any other religious, race, culture, or any kind of offensive language used in World of Warcraft or ANY game played online? NO!


So what makes you soooooooooo "Special" that you have to get up and arms about it and make a big stink? NOTHING


Hell how many times have we heard in games. "American's suck!" "American's are stupid." "American's deserve death!"

MANY TIMES!!! Yet you don't see Americans going, " THIS NEEDS TO STOP CAUSE YOUR HURTING MY FEELINGS!!!'

Nope. We just say F YOU and move on!

Your game isn't being ruined by this kind of talk. Only your lack of confidence in the "SEXUALITY" you were born with is.
How about something that matters for a change?
# Feb 21 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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10,245 posts
Articles and discussions like this only serve to cement, and validate, my position on humanity. Maybe I'm just lucky in that I can tell everyone to f'uck off when they try to call me out for racism, sexism or queerism. I'm a misanthrope and I pretty much hate you all equally.

There hasn't been a single intelligent or rational comment made to this editorial yet, and it didn't help that the editorial itself was a great steaming pile of sh*te. The basic problem with this argument, the positions taken here and every other petty thought crime discussion is that we have nothing in Western culture any more of real import on which to focus our energy that is easy enough to fix with a soundbite. All of the real problems that we have left will take genuine hard work to fix. Bored dumbasses with too much time on their hands and not enough character think that playing the liberal heartstrings can get them and their pet issues the press they want.

Imagine how much actual oppression we could remove from the world if we focused on something that mattered instead of this petty bullsh;t.
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[The rest of this message has been censored and I can't tell you what I actually think of you]
How about something that matters for a change?
# Feb 22 2010 at 1:49 AM Rating: Decent
5 posts
What a load of contradiction you write
It's actually embarrassing how lacking in insight you are
Firstly I’m sorry you hate mankind ..you must be a very balanced and fun person to be around
I would recommend seeing a Psychiatrist because you can get help to understand why you dislike people generally ..there are people like you who live happy and healthy lives after treatment
Now back to your post ...you say people should focus on the real oppression in the world . Lack of sexual ,religious, social and racial tolerance is actually the root cause of some of the worst massacres and genocides the world has ever seen
Rwanda, the Holocaust ,the Khmer Rouge ..the list is endless
So I’m not sure when you say “lets focus on issues of real oppression “ what you mean ?
Addressing discrimination and intolerance to someone different to you is most definitely relevant to world being a better place
Finally you say no-one has posted anything significant .I found this most insulting considering the fact some people spent time explaining and articulating exactly their personal experiences and views on the subject.
I don't even think you bothered to read all the posts ?
How about something that matters for a change?
# Feb 22 2010 at 2:22 AM Rating: Good
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10,245 posts
Quote:
What a load of contradiction you write

I didn't contradict myself anywhere in my post. Learn to read a little better.
Quote:
It's actually embarrassing how lacking in insight you are

I can see why you'd be embarrassed not getting what I wrote. It demonstrated a lack of comprehension and reflects poorly on you and those responsible for your upbringing. You must be a terrible disappointment to your mother.
Quote:
you say people should focus on the real oppression in the world . Lack of sexual ,religious, social and racial tolerance is actually the root cause of some of the worst massacres and genocides the world has ever seen
Rwanda, the Holocaust ,the Khmer Rouge ..the list is endless
So I’m not sure when you say “lets focus on issues of real oppression “ what you mean ?

Who gives a crap about Rwanda, the Khmer Rouge or the Holocaust? One is ancient history and the other two are backwater hollows where people wouldn't know what to do with freedom if you gave it to them. Imposing it there would trade one oppressive regime for another, more internationally palatable one.

I live in America. The most pressing concerns we have are the construction of a permanent dependent class by well intentioned idiots and the systematic dismantling of freedom by people jealous of the success of others. Unless we change those things, all of the PC bullsh;t people like you try and shove down our throats will be meaningless as we find ourselves unoffended and a third-rate third-world country.
Quote:
Finally you say no-one has posted anything significant .I found this most insulting considering the fact some people spent time explaining and articulating exactly their personal experiences and views on the subject.

No, I said there was nothing rational or intelligent. You characterized it as insignificant. I would argue that most things posted here are very significant in that they demonstrate in stark relief just how irrational and stupid people tend to get when "feelings" get involved. F'uck them, their personal experiences and their "views" that do nothing to advance the causes of true freedom. Feelgood mother f;uckers like you are the reason we ended up with a man unqualified to run a lemonade stand as president. Thankfully that's a mistake that can be rectified. Your generation, on the other hand, is likely to haunt us for decades.
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[The rest of this message has been censored and I can't tell you what I actually think of you]
My views
# Feb 21 2010 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Interesting debate
Firstly I want to congratulate Zam for posting this article ...its sad but true that even in an enlightened world there are still people who are horrified with the thought of Homosexuality and see it as an aberration
I have really enjoyed many posts made here by some they show a level of intelligence and thoughtfulness that I appreciate ,especially by capcanuk and panicfairy
I live in South Africa where civil unions are allowed ,in fact your choice of sexual orientation is protected in the constitution. Our Constitution supersedes any religious viewpoint and for me that works perfectly
We still do though have discrimination ,its funny but the violent discrimination(albeit rarely) against gay people mostly occurs in the rural African American townships..which I find ironic because non-whites suffered under apartheid and you would expect them to have more empathy with people being different to themslves..but I digress
I notice that some people have been defending the gay bigotry by saying things like "get a thicker skin "..or "its only a joke relax".
Those people have clearly never been the victim of these types of slurs because if you were you wouldn't say they don't mean anything
Imagine if you had a black player in your guild and every-time he logged on everyone said " hi n**g "..or "damn you so stupid n***r "...don't say these words don't have a hurtful connotation to them because I live in a country that use to enforce racial polarization as a law and racial words are offensive.
Finally just because the internet can be a cruel place of vitriol it doesn't mean we have to accept it .If you care about the feelings of others ..don't use offensive words and try to refrain from insulting people ..even if you find it funny .Its that simple


Edited, Feb 21st 2010 12:03pm by BruceVC
My views
# Feb 21 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
don't use offensive words and try to refrain from insulting people ..even if you find it funny .Its that simple


It's called the Freedom of Speech. I shouldn't have to refrain from saying anything. If someone gets insulted... so what? What's the harm? I'm serious, explain to me what the harm is. Also explain to me why a gay can cry foul over speech on the internet but a Republican couldn't cry foul about the media-endorsed hatred of George W. Bush?

Freedom of Speech means EVERYONE has the right to say what they want. Calling someone a slur over the internet is a very far cry from screaming "fire" in a crowded building, so throw that argument out before it starts.
My views
# Feb 21 2010 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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As this is a debate based on online communities, no you don't have Freedom of Speech. You follow the rules set forward by the people who own the game/community you are in. And every one of those places has rules against offensive or discriminating language, should you care to browse the rules.
My views
# Feb 21 2010 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nobody is saying that you don't have the right to say what you want, no matter how degrading. We're just saying that you're a jerk because you do. See the difference?

You could walk up to a starving homeless man on the street with a piece of fried chicken in one hand and a hundred dollar bill in the other and scream "gee, chicken sure tastes better when you're rich" right to his face. Nobody is going to lock you up. Say what you like. It's just that, to people who have a soul, those types of behaviors would classify you as a bit of a shi*head. Get it?
stop whining and shut up
# Feb 21 2010 at 7:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok, so say somehow "homophobic" slang is actually censored away... so what? We'll find something else. Perhaps something to do with your mother. Perhaps your skin tone. Maybe your religion.

Here's my thing, people need to stop being such whining pains in the arse and just grow thicker skin. So what if the faceless voice on the internet just called you a f----t? Does it really matter?

Political correctness is just an euphemism for forced conformity. Personally I think homosexuality is wrong. However, lots of my personal believes and practices are considering unpopular and subject to ridicule. I don't go running to the nearest multi-letter acronym and cry like a prissy little girl about it. I use my words. I support my believes with FACTS, not hubris.

Long story short, stop whining and grow a set. I come to this website for MMO news, not to hear about how yet another minority feels the need to stir the pot over something completely meaningless.

Edited, Feb 21st 2010 8:43am by GrieversBane
Tolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 20 2010 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
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You can call the sky purple all day long, but it doesn't make it purple. Homosexuality is wrong. It is a sin. I don't say that as a sinnless person. I have my own sins. I do things that are wrong. Everyone does. But I make no apologies for the truth. God said that He did not intend people to live a homosexual lifestyle. I don't make the judgement. God does.

Many people are born with things that they do not choose to be born with. We live in a fallen sinful world full of a lot of pain and suffering. Things aren't as God intended them to be. We human beings decided we were better and knew better than God. We've fallen short of His perfection and that's why we need Him as a savior. From a man cheating on his wife, to polygamy, to homosexuality, to lying, to stealing. All are short of God's perfection. I fall short. Every one who accepts Jesus falls short (i.e.,Christians) and every human being who lives falls short of God's righteousness. That's a fact whether or not you accept it. Your opinion doesn't change the truth. Nor does my opinion change the truth.

Again, as I stated before. IF you want to live your life that way, go ahead. I don't care. And I will continue to protect homosexuals from harassment just as I would protect any other person from harassment.
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Tolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 21 2010 at 8:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, I KNOW this isn't the place for this discussion, but, PLEASE, enlighten us and tell us WHERE exactly God says that homosexuality is a sin?

I can assure you that as "right" and as "factual" as you think you are, I can easily demonstrate and prove that you are dead wrong. There is absolutely no evidence, whatsoever, that God does not approve of homosexuality. There is only clear demonstration that fundamentalists and literalist interpreters of the Bible have NO idea what they are talking about when they use the Bible to justify their hatred. There is not one mention of homosexuality in the Bible.
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Tolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 21 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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"1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NLT)" wrote:
9 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.
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Tolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 21 2010 at 4:04 PM Rating: Decent
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A very liberal translation of the original there. That is Paul speaking on what he believes will prevent people from entering the Kingdom of Heaven. In the original greek he uses the word arsenokoitai, of which the meaning has been lost. He does not use the standard word for homosexual. Every translation of the original story gains the biases of the translator. The King James version, for example, uses the phrase "abusers of themselves with mankind" there.
While I appreciate taking your morals and opinions from a several thousand year old book, times do change. Not to mention the selective picking and choosing of what rules are enforced from said book tends to confuse me. Leviticus is the first thing people run to when they cry foul on homosexuality, then completely ignore all the other bizarre rules in the book. I'm glad you at least went for Corinthians, even if it is no more accurate.
Tolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 21 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Or maybe its more accurate because its translated into today's current dialect? Comparing a very modern translation to one written 400 years ago as proof of a bias doesn't make much sense. The best translation is the one understandable by the reader.

Also must remember its a translation...

"abusers of themselves with mankind" is the translation of the Greek word "arsenokoitēs" (ἀρσενοκοίτης). Which means "1) one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual".

There is absolutely no bias in the translation. It means what it means.


You can argue it doesn't mean what it means...but it does.
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Tolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 22 2010 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
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It is actually very easy to argue it doesn't mean that, since no one really knows what it means. The word never appeared in writing before Paul used it. People have tried to deconstruct it and have come up with several possibilities. But regardless of that, this is seriously off topic at this point. Believe what you like, no one begrudges you for that. When you start using your beliefs as a jumping off point for denying rights to people though, then it becomes an issue.
Tolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 22 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Default
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"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination". - God - (Leviticus 18:22)
Tolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 23 2010 at 1:42 AM Rating: Decent
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See my previous post about the hypocrisy of quoting Leviticus when only acknowledging a fraction of the crazy rules in that book. You can't just cherry pick the stuff that is convenient and leave the rest of the book behind, that's when it becomes less about the teachings and more about the prejudices.
Tolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 24 2010 at 3:25 AM Rating: Good
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Actually, the Bible itself explains why and what parts of the OLD Covenant (i.e., New Testament) are carried over and which parts are not.

New Testament literally means New Covenant...a new agreement between God and man. Through the death of Jesus Christ man no longer had to be God's enemy. By sinning we created a barrier between God and us. God is completely and totally righteous and perfect. Nothing unholy can survive in His presence. Not because of His own wish, but because sin is the polar opposite of God. It is destroyed in His presence much like darkness in a room can't help but disappear when a light is turned on.

The common misconception is that God is this terrible judge just looking to punish people and send them to hell. God isn't the one who sends us to hell. This couldn't be any further from the truth. God sent His Son to pay the price. Jesus just didn't die on a cross, but was also sent to hell in our place. He took upon ALL the suffering and punishment that we deserved rebelling against the Almighty King because He loved us. God is this narrowminded evil spiteful being. Rather, He created a way out and is telling us the way.

You can argue "Well a benevolent God would just forgive everyone."... but I ask you would He truly be a loving and just God if He didn't execute justice? Would you deem a judge who "forgives" and lets rapists, serial killers, thieves, terrorists, etc free? No you'd be outraged...yet when it comes to your own self-inflicted judegement you call Him unfair!

He died for you so you'd have a very simple way to be free of every wrong and filthy thing you've ever done. Yet instead you mock Him. My heart aches for you.


The Law (or Old Testament) was made to show us how imperfect we are and how perfect God was. The Law demonstrated to us our own sinful and corrupt ways. It was not meant to be a permanent contract. Rather, it was made so that God could show His rebellious Creation who He was and much of it was for our own good. The Law was created so that a people separated from Him could continue to function in an orderly manner and point to a more perfect plan.


The New Testament is that perfect plan. One not based on written rules, but rather on a heart indwelt by God by a people who desire to please Him. No longer separated from God by our sin. Rather we're brought close by the selfless act of the Perfect Sacrifice...that is Jesus Christ.


The Old Testament was written as an oppressive document for a rebellious people who were technically enemies of God.

The New Testament was written as a love letter to His reconciled Creation.
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Tolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 23 2010 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I'm sure you noticed how these folks always skip over reconciling all of the other nonsense in that book. I wonder what Bible verses I could use to condemn those who play World of Warcraft...

update
# Feb 20 2010 at 8:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Didn't many of those states recently pass a vote defining the term "Marriage" as between man and woman thus nullifying the term "Marriage" and using "Civil Unions" Yes I know Civil Unions exist but my point was that its not widely accepted. Just cause some places accept it doesn't mean the world does. Its like if I were to say "Death to Pigs" and your Islamophobic cause you can't except that pigs are dirty and impure. Islam a world wide accepted religion and way of life that often gets confused with terrorism. Yet its perfectly ok for people to go "Durka Durka Mohamad Jihad". I'm just saying if we choose to defend everyones lifestyle in the world then there would be no order.

Some Cultures its ok for a man to kill another man as long as he can support that man's family. You know how many people I'd kill if that were the case here in the US? Lines and boundaries were made for a reason. Lately the lines have been so blurred from the 40s-50's with the hippies from the 60's and 70's that our nation has fallen apart. Look at crime, look at our economy, and look at our society. We are a joke! Now the only good thing that has came out is Equal rights! No man/woman should be held back cause of race! Outside that I think we have just lost site of whats important. Everyone is just out for themselfs and their own Ideals. That never was the American Dream. The dream was making our country INDEPENDENT then one can live their Dream.

I think it was JFK who said, " Ask not what your Country can do for you, but what you can do for your Country." People have lost site of that. Its all about ME ME ME.

So what is the better route? Accept everything and let things just slip into Chaos, or make a stand and prevent ideals too far out of the box from becoming reality?
update
# Feb 20 2010 at 9:43 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
In our hemisphere: Canada, Mexico, 5 states, D.C.
Also: Belgium, Spain, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands, South Africa
Recognized in many other countries, if not performed
Civil Unions in dozens of countries


Add to this list: soon, Portugal ( it is pretty much just a formality at this point, it will be law in April)

COUNTRIES, not just states. States is nothing, it's just parts of The U.S. Your law decrees that marriage is a state-controlled institution. So each state is free to make it's laws whatever it wants regarding marriage. Saying "only 5 states out of 50" does not de-legitimize the fact that all these OTHER countries have same-sex marriage laws.

Look at the countries that have same-sex marriage. South Africa! Mexico! Come on, the U.S. should be ASHAMED that it lags behind.
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update
# Feb 20 2010 at 11:16 AM Rating: Default
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Ok, but do you see Russia? Iran? Iraq? Australia? England? The rest of AFRICA? China? Japan? Just because some parts tolerate it doesn't make it right. Which brings me to my point earlier. Many places allow women under the age of 14 to be married to men older then 30. It doesn't make it right. The fact still remains the MAJORITY of the world and population is still against it. The US shouldn't be ashamed cause a MINORITY wants to become a MAJORITY!
update
# Feb 20 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
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England - Civil Partnerships
Australia - In about the same state as the US. Performed in some places, not in others. Bills in courts
Japan - Laws in the works to allow people to marry if their home areas allow it

Overall, most of Europe has some sort of Civil Union or marriage law in place. Nowhere will you find LGBT people asking to be a majority, that's just silly. Please do not force your views of right and wrong on people who were born the way they were. Nor should the majority make laws that effect the minorities badly, that is a road with a dark ending, and one we've seen before.
update
# Feb 20 2010 at 5:28 PM Rating: Default
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Nor should a minority expect EVERYONE to accept their way of life. That is just as bad! Saying that the United States is BEHIND cause of it and calling everything out there HOMOPHOBIA is BS. Just cause I don't choose to agree with your lifestyle and post my reasons why doesn't mean I'm going to stop you from living your life the way you want to. I choose to disagree with it and that is all :). If it upsets you and makes me "Homophobic" maybe you should just hang yourself over everyone in the world who doesn't agree with every little thing in your life.

Edited, Feb 20th 2010 6:31pm by darkpoetinc
update
# Feb 21 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Being gay is not my lifestyle, it is how I was born. My lifestyle is a gamer who tries to find the time for sleep and work ;) I am who I was born to be, that cannot be changed. Making laws specifically to prevent me from doing things is discrimination plain and simple. Other countries are figuring it out quicker than ours it seems. Times are changing, it's time to leave old prejudices behind and stop treating us like second class citizens because we were born differently than you.

This, however, is way off base with the original scope of the article and really has gone about as far as it can go. I appreciate your right to think how you like, but not your ability to push those ideals onto the minorities with laws like Prop 8. Are there intolerant gay people as well? Of course, we're not different than anyone else. Someday everyone will realize we are all just people trying to get by in this world, some of us just go about it a bit differently.
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# Feb 19 2010 at 10:20 PM Rating: Good
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This was meant to be a reply to another comment...delete if possible.

Edited, Feb 20th 2010 1:53am by ekaterinodar
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Blood Elfs
# Feb 19 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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If bliz didn't support homosexuality Blood Elfs wouldn't exsist!


In all honesty, I've had gay players in my guild. One that got really upset when a British guy said he needed to smoke a fag. It was quite funny hearing him explain to the homosexual a fag met a cigarette in England. Personally I don't care. Everyone has a right to live their life they way they want and believe in what they want to believe in. Don't push your ways on me if I don't agree with them. That goes both ways. Getting a prostate exam hurt the hell out of me even with lube so I could never take it up the pipe. Also I'm just not attracted to men. I'm repulsed by even myself. Its to the point where I can't even watch another dude in porn cause it kills the mood for me. So I can't see where a man is attracted to another man, but don't get pissed at me cause I don't see your way. And ya I'm going to clown you about it. Just like I clown some of my buddies about the women they are with. Do some people go too far?! Yes. But World of Warcraft is a world wide played game. So unless your way of life is accepted WORLD WIDE then your not going to get acceptance.

How many Countries/Nations/Regions/Providences recognize gay marriage? Absolutely ZERO! So with Zero acceptance anywhere in the world, how do you expect NOT to get harassed and poked fun of?
Blood Elfs
# Feb 20 2010 at 1:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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You're way off on the Gay marriage thing not being legal anywhere.

In our hemisphere: Canada, Mexico, 5 states, D.C.
Also: Belgium, Spain, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands, South Africa
Recognized in many other countries, if not performed
Civil Unions in dozens of countries
Tolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 19 2010 at 6:33 PM Rating: Good
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First, I'd like to state that I don't think anyone should be harassed online or off because of their sexual orientation, race, gender or religious persuasion.

Second, I think its important we differentiate between homophobia and an ethical disagreement. Far too often I'm labeled as homophobic simply because I think homosexuality is wrong. As a Christian I disagree with the homosexual lifestyle. I think it is a perverse and harmful both to the individual and society. With that said, I also understand the divine right for people to make their own decisions (i.e., free will). Their salvation is their own responsibility.


I have seen people berating homosexuals or making obscene and downright despicable comments in trade and I come to the defense of homosexuals. NOBODY should hbe subjected to that kind of harassment.


At the same time I think some players encourage it. Regardless of whether or not they deserve it.

Quote:
He created the gamer tag "xxx GayBoy xxx" and simply joined Halo 3 matches as usual, without provoking other players or even talking about sexual orientation. Sadly, we probably don't need to explain what he experienced throughout the video, because most gamers have seen or heard it for themselves.


This is false. Because he DID talk about sexual orientation by creating that username.


If I created the name ""xxx SexyGirl xxx" you better believe I'd be called all sorts of things. You'd also expect some pretty inappropriate things to be said. Also imagine if I made the name "xxx StraightBoy xxx" or even "Christian Boy". Imagine the things that would be said!


So it goes two ways. By no means do I condone it...but some people do things that just aren't so smart.


Tolerance isn't agreeing with someone. Rather, its respecting their right to disagree with you.


Edited, Feb 20th 2010 8:18pm by ekaterinodar
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Intolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 19 2010 at 6:58 PM Rating: Decent
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When you say that homosexuality is "perverse and harmful," you contribute to a society that is violent and degrading towards gays and lesbians. Just because you are enlightened enough not to take your prejudice to an extreme level does not mean that others will not. You may say that you are not responsible for what other people do. I say that just because you didn't shoot the gun doesn't mean you didn't help load it.

Kids today are encouraged in their disrespectful and cruel behaviors towards gays and lesbians by a society that condones them.
Intolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 20 2010 at 12:55 AM Rating: Decent
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It is perverse and harmful. Human beings were never meant to engage in homosexuality. It goes against everything in nature. You can spin it however you want, it doesn't make it right. I do not have to support or condone a lifestyle that is wrong. If you're saying dissent is promoting violence and degradation you are sadly mistaken and do not at all understand the concept of tolerance.

It would be like me claiming your disagreement with Christianity (as an example whether or not you do I don't know) is promoting the violent persecution of Christians and cruel behavior towards them. Which is of course not true.

Don't think it doesn't exist? Just Google "Voice of the Martyrs" or mention you're a Christian in trade chat or even on these forums and watch the persecution fly.


I'm not about to condone a perversion of the natural order simply because it is now politically incorrect to dare oppose something that most societies for most of time have considered wrong.

At the same time, I will NEVER condone or support people bashing or harassing gays. Respect people. Respect.
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Intolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 20 2010 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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Let us correct two errors you make in your statements:

"it is against nature": there is homosexuality in nature, and it is prevalent in approximately the same percentage as in humans. it has been found in many species, including, but not restricted to, dolphins, penguins, and seagulls.

homosexuality is also found in the exact same proportion in communities that are completely dissociated from western civilization. south sea island communities, remote mountain communities in africa, and south america. so it isn't an artifact of our civilization. therefore, it occurs "naturally".

"it is harmful to society": a recent study has actually found that it can be quite GOOD for society.
in that study of small native populations on pacific islands, they found that families with gay members could rely on those gay members as "extra parents" to take care of the family group's children, in essence, adding extra parental roles to the extended family unit. If you don't see this as a positive aspect, then you know nothing about sociology.

Let me add that homosexuality is in no way "harmful to the individual" as you state. I would like to know HOW exactly it can be harmful to the individual? What is harmful is people like yourself, who insist on thinking you are not homophobic, but still spewing lies and half-truths about homosexuality. You can say you're not a homophobe all you want, every word of your post negates it and demonstrates amply that you suffer from homophobia.

As long as that is not pointed out to people like yourself, you will continue to go on, thinking highly of yourself, deluded in your belief that you are somehow not part of the problem. As nice a person as you might be, you are still, unfortunately, a homophobe. "Tolerance while denouncing" is not acceptance. And without acceptance, there is only homophobia.

And lastly, homosexuality is not a "lifestyle". It is not a choice. Religion is a choice. Political affiliation is a choice. Sexual identity is NOT a "choice". It is an innate part of the makeup of a person. it cannot be altered, it cannot be changed. It can be denied, it can be hidden, it can be suppressed. It cannot be changed.

To use words you might understand: God made gay people the way they are. Everything God makes is good. Therefore, being gay is within God's plan. To second-guess God is a sin. To insist that gays are bad and that God hates gays, despite there being no proof anywhere that God actually thinks this, is a sin as well. It is presuming of God's intention. It is actually a Capital Sin.

Edited for flustered spelling

Edited, Feb 20th 2010 9:03am by capcanuk
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Intolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 20 2010 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
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Thumbs up, Capcanuk.

It never ceases to amaze me that the most judgmental Christians are also the ones that feel persecuted by society. Gimme a frickin' break.

When was the last time someone told you that you couldn't get married because you're Christian? When was the last time someone didn't want you to babysit their kids because you're Christian? When was the last time you felt the threat of physical violence because you're Christian?

You don't know persecution in any way other than the judgments you shove onto others.
Intolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 20 2010 at 6:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Again, Google "Voice of the Martyrs". I'm lucky that in America I don't have to suffer widespread persecution. But there are Christians who are martyred daily for their beliefs throughout the world.

I'm not judging anyone. I'm saying I think a lifestyle is wrong. You're telling me that because I don't agree with you, I'm being judgmental. What's dangerous isn't my belief that homosexuality is wrong. What's dangerous is a society that attempts to villianize any dissenting opinion.

I have no problems with you believing homosexuality is okay. That's your choice...but I'm not allowed to disagree without being a bad person? And you're saying I'm the problem? Sad sad day for this world.


You have no idea who I am or what I believe. Whether I'm judgmental or not. I simply stated my personal beliefs and now I'm the one judging? I think you're the one in ushering judgments. Condemning all Christians and their beliefs simply because of a bad experience with a few loud mouthed idiots who have no idea what "Christian" means.


Quote:
to pursue with harassing or oppressive treatment, esp. because of religion, race, or beliefs


If anyone is doing any persecuting here it is you.
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Intolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 20 2010 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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It is certainly your privilege to hold your beliefs. However, to say that you are not making judgments is simply not accurate. You have made several, the worst of which calling homosexuality "perverse and harmful." As someone who is homosexual, how are you not making a judgment against me? But let's get past this. Everyone makes judgments.

I just want to say a few things and then I'll be done here. You may have the final word.

Homosexuality is not a "lifestyle." I daresay that my lifestyle is not that far removed from your own. I work, I enjoy time with my family and friends, I have hobbies (go go WoW addiction), I think about life and the world around me. Perhaps you have a vision of what life is like for a gay man, but for this gay man life is rather simple, rather vanilla by some standards, and I enjoy it that way. I don't molest children or have a thousand sexual partners. I have one, in fact, to whom I am eternally committed and for whom I would do anything. The fact that my partner in life happens to have the same sexual organ that I do does not define my lifestyle.

As I've said, you have the right to believe as you will. I appreciate a world where not everyone agrees. The problem is that your disagreements end up causing pain and suffering to countless men and women who have to struggle with their place in a world that demonizes their very existence. The problem is that you are allowed to vote on whether or not I have the same basic civil rights that you do. The problem is that I just want to be happy, and you just want to be right.

I wish you the best of luck in life and all the happiness you deserve. I also wish it for the countless gay men and women out there for whom happiness becomes a daily struggle.
Intolerance isn't agreeing with someone
# Feb 21 2010 at 8:42 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
267 posts
I think the original point of this post got a little lost but I do agree with part of it. Like the OP, I also don't believe that homosexuality is a natural or good thing. I believe it is contrary to biblical teaching and contrary to nature. Sure it occurs in nature but so do a lot of things that aren't necessarily the way nature intended. That's what I believe and I'm entitled to that view. That doesn't mean that I will be hostile towards people who are homosexual. I have friends who are gay. They know we disagree on certain things and have some good discussions about it. I have beliefs etc that they don't agree with. They also know that I will never insult them over it or use slurs such as fag etc, just as I know that they don't lable me as 'homophobic' etc simply because of my views. I am a GM and I have had gay members in my guild. I booted someone from the guild for insulting them over their sexual orientation and it hasn't hapenned since.
Words like tolerance, acceptance etc are often misunderstood and misused but here's my take on it. I don't have to accept homosexuality as something that should be encouraged etc but I think I do have an obligation to accept everyone, regardless of sexual orientation, as fellow humans who deserve diginity and respect.
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Gays aren't the only wimps
# Feb 19 2010 at 2:19 PM Rating: Excellent
1 post
Speaking as someone who is LGBT, smack talk in /2 is part of the game. Everyone gets @#%^ed - gay, straight, male, female, good players, bad players, your mum...everyone. And we should give as good as we get.

What I object to is things like XBox Live banning 'gay' usernames, or WoW trying to ban guilds advertising that they are gay-friendly. That's restricting my identity, and my freedom of speech.

Some people up there at the top of the thread mentioned that they are sick of 'certain groups' being protected, or that gays should 'grow a thicker skin'. Well it seems that software companies see that 'certain group' that need protecting to be their majority player base, who shell out the most money for their services and like to interact only with the 2d game world characterisation they are comfortable with.




-
# Feb 19 2010 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
2 posts
Blizz could solve this quite easily by simply having someone live monitor the chats for a period of time.

See a slur - ban them immediately and make it progressive. Guys brag how they can handle a 3 day ban. Make the 1st ban 3 days and the next one 2 weeks. 3rd strike and you're out...

They could just review the chat logs every day and could see whose names keeps popping up.

As for the just /ignore comments. I dont have time to ignore all the idiots, and there is a finite limit of people you can ignore. Why should I have to work to enjoy a game I am already paying for?
Chill
# Feb 19 2010 at 10:23 AM Rating: Excellent
45 posts
I think the point that both sides should acknowledge is that people in games are rude.

Outright cruel.

People are criticized for every aspect of what they do, and concepts like "respect" and "support" are vanishing faster and faster.

We need more mutual understanding and kindness in these games.

When someone is wearing / rolling the wrong gear for their class and spec, don't make them feel like dirt. Explain to them, "You should be focusing on these stats. Try picking these talents and dropping these, and it'll help you a lot."

When a group is taking too long to get started, excuse yourself politely and go look for another group.

When someone makes a comment about you, do like an earlier poster did and tell them you found it abnormally offensive or shocking, and ask them not to say that in a public place.

And when someone tells you that they found your comment offensive - apologize and try to understand their point of view.
____________________________
d'Jang'ai'alarion
Appologize
# Feb 20 2010 at 9:49 PM Rating: Default
5 posts
I find you offensive. Please apologize to me and instantly become offended by yourself. WOW! LOOK HOW THAT LOGIC WORKS WHEN PUT TO USE!
A Response
# Feb 19 2010 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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90 posts
As a gay man who plays MMOs, I am very pleased to see this article. Straight people often don't realize how difficult they make it on us because of the things they choose to say. For better or worse, I find that when these people are confronted with the issue directly, most of them will say that they "don't mean any harm" when they make derogatory gay statements and use that as justification.

I'm almost thirty and have dealt with this behavior my entire life, starting at an unfathomably young age. I have sadly become numb to it. What hurts me now is to think of all the young gay people out there who can't even turn to a video game to find refuge from the harshness of the real world.

You may think that your harmless joke or off-hand comment is meaningless. But often, you are genuinely hurting someone else and making their life just a little more tough, just a little more painful.

It's a free country and you can do and say what you want. But why not choose to hold your tongue so that everyone might feel a part of this community that we all love?

Edited, Feb 19th 2010 11:44am by PanicFairy
REALLY??
# Feb 20 2010 at 9:46 PM Rating: Decent
5 posts
Honestly, your whole argument is very bad. If they are escaping the harshness of the world online, they don't have to stand up and yell "Hey, I am gay!" all day long. If you don't want people to judge you on being gay, then don't say you are gay. That is the beauty of an online video game. If people can roll a female character and have people believe they are a woman, then really, how hard can it be to hide that you are gay? I know some one will say "We shouldn't be judged!" and all I have to say to that is: no, you shouldn't, but if you are going to wine about how you are, you aren't helping your position, you are just aggravating people who weren't annoyed by gays before. Nobody wants to listen to anyone rant for hours about how they are being treated unfairly when they can solve it themselves by just being silent. The Christians in a Roman society hid their beliefs, and it worked pretty well for them. In Roman society people even hunted down and killed them. Are you really being treated THAT bad? If it bugs you that much, just don't yell "I'M GAY!"
REALLY??
# Jul 03 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
3 posts
I just love how straight people justify their hatred. Pretty sad.http://cocuk.oyunyolu.net/

Edited, Jul 3rd 2010 6:06pm by oyunyolu
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REALLY??
# Feb 21 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
16 posts
That's really not what it is about. It's about avoiding even the smallest details of your life when speaking to others. Guilds like the one I'm in are safe havens, places where it doesn't matter who you are. But many guilds are full of the type that populate Xbox live. While they have the freedom to mention their girlfriend being at work, or whatever, gay people have to be careful to not say anything that might be misconstrued without reprisal in places like that. That is where the double standard comes in. Then the fact that are ARE avoiding talking about it starts them off on their own adventure of guessing and rumors and you are no better off in the end.
REALLY??
# Feb 22 2010 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
5 posts
If you aren't willing to take the heat like other people do about many other things, then just stay in the closet. It really doesn't make the gay community look good when people just whine about stuff they can prevent. there will always be haters, just don't give them a reason to hate you, or just DON'T WHINE about it... What about all of the short people of the world? Pretty sure that they get made fun of quite a bit, and they can't hide it.
REALLY??
# Feb 23 2010 at 10:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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90 posts
Why should I have to shut my mouth about who I am when you don't have to? Just because I'm gay I have to keep even the slightest details about my life quiet at all times? Screw you.
that one feature, what was it? oh yeah...
# Feb 19 2010 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
16 posts
i kinda find it funny that people will either :
A ) leave themselves open to trolls. running around with the gamer tag 'xxx gayboy xxx' is -asking- for it. you are -asking- for trolls to come after you. it should be no suprise if you get picked on. the moral of the story? if you don't want to be picked on don't ask to be picked on. don't name yourself 'gayboy' ( or the like ) and or don't ride around on the gay pride parade in an environment you -know- will get you picked on, because that's just asking for it.
B ) DON'T KNOW HOW TO USE THE /IGNORE FEATURE. Seriously, if someone's being a jerk, and you can ignore them, put on big boy pants, hit /ignore, wait a week, take them off ignore because they/you will never meet/see/hear from each other again, unless you go around asking for it by continuing to leave yourself open to that jerk.
C ) get uppity when 'their sexuality is being questioned.' getting uppity and riled up only FEEDS trolls, they thrive on that and will continue to tease you/deride. you see it in schools, you see it in grown ups. childish behavior will -always- be around, and when people grow up, rarely do their attitudes change or mature.

Its a raw deal for people who are gay, but at the same time, they need to stop being so incredibly thin skinned about things ( a lot of people need to stop being so thin skinned about a lot of things ). if its generic 'oh man, that's gay' comments, don't sweat it, it wasn't directed at any one person ( regardless of their orientation ), and if it was, hey, that's what /ignore is for, or changing your gamer tag, or just simply not telling me your gay ( seriously, as someone who grew up being picked on, the best defense for not being picked on is to not open yourself up for it, they're trolls, you know they're trolls, why give them the ammo to pick on you? )
degredations and slurs in gaming
# Feb 19 2010 at 9:28 AM Rating: Default
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132 posts
Sadly, what "Shiba" mentions above is quite true... Regardless of the situation, I have heard these type of comments and more, sometimes just because my toons aren't set up the way others think they should be, and because I won't change it to what they want, they attack me in the game verbally. What alot of the players out there need to respect is that when you are gaming with others, you don't have the right to attack other players just because they do things differently from what you would do. I don't care how anonymous you think you are, all you are showing is how low of a level you can sink to when you attack other players based on their choices. Trade chat in wow is getting to the point where they should just shut it down, at best there is maybe 5% of actual trading discussion going on, the rest of it is verbal abuse on others, be it by culture, gender, or beliefs. There are alot of things being said in there where the game isn't even giving me the option of reporting it anymore, and I refuse to leave the channel just because of lack of intelligence commonly displayed by alot of other players in there. It's also quite prevalent in groups and raids, when someone needs an item that others think they shouldn't need or use. I look at it this way: Said item is an upgrade for my toon based on my current gear, and I have no intention of selling it anytime soon unless something that is better for me comes along. So long as I use the item instead of claiming it to sell it as alot of folks will do, there shouldn't be any negative or aggressive comments directed at me. I don't care if an item is meant for a specific class, if I am able to use that item and it's an upgrade, I should be full well able to need it. If Blizzard wants specific items to go to specific classes then dang well say so in the item info like they do for epic gear. Until they implement that, then shut yur yap about what I decide I need in the game.

Another trend that is becoming rather prevalent is that where folks with toons that are of the level for the mission/dungeon but are the low end of the group that gets formed through the random dungeon finder are finding themselves getting kicked out of the group just because they don't bring the maximum possible dps that someone of slightly higher level can bring. Wake up folks, keep in mind that continually trying to keep the groups you join as optimal dps as possible just because someone else isn't meeting what you think they should is not fair play I am not saying that you should accept having to effectively pl anyone that joins the group, but the whole nature of the random dungeon finder is just that, random. So long as the toon is able to enter the mission they should at least have a chance of completing it just like everyone else. You want to be the one that everyone wants to group with, that's your choice. Me, I just want to get the damn dungeon done so I can hit the next level and see what other game content I can find that presents an interesting challenge to me; after all, enjoying the game and meeting folks is what I came here for.
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reactions are like a box of chocolates... you never know what you are going to get. If you can't handle that, don't open the box!!
No difference
# Feb 19 2010 at 5:08 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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267 posts
Vilifying anyone in a game is bad. I don't care if it's because they're gay, black, whatever. I don't see why the article needs to single out gays for special mention as if that's the only area where there's a problem. Having said that, I think cases like the video are plain stupid. If you make a point of identifying yourself as gay then of course it's going to draw some negative reactions. I follow a religion that's pretty non-mainstram and often criticised by mainstream religion (including murders, lynchings etc in years past). I'm not going to go on an online forum or play a game with a username that broadcasts that I'm associated with that religion. I don't call myself hetero boy either. I really don't care if a fellow wow player's gay or not. It shouldn't be an issue. Homophobia is wrong but gay people broadcasting their orientation won't help.
As for the whole 'that's so gay' sort of comment. Is it stupid? Of course. Is it typical teenage talk? You bet. 99% of teenagers who use expressions like that only do it because it's a common expression. It's no reflection of their views on homosexuality. The fact that term's now used in that way is unfortunate, but I think the fact that a word which used to describe happy feelings is now more commonly associated with sexuality is equally unfortunate. So why get bothered by it? I find the whole linking anal thing stupid and offensive too but when half of trade's doing it I ignore it. Not hard to do.
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???
# Feb 19 2010 at 4:05 AM Rating: Default
6 posts

Look around us. Gay rallies, gay rights, gay PDA. If we even say something as simple as "I dont agree with that, I think thats disgusting", WE'RE close minded idiots who have no right to life. The fact of the matter is everyone has an opinion. So because gays have their opinion of sexuality, I'm not allowed to have mine? F*** that. Its a two way street. Gays are welcome to be gay, but if they want to get worked up over something that is a completely subconscious saying like "Man that's gay", then they need to re-think what they're calling other people. Its just like saying "dude" for 90% of people I bet.

Now I'm not a total a-hole. Gays can be gay, I dont care. But when it comes down to me having to change MY lifestyle, MY speech/slang, MY opinions just so I'm not "offensive", f*** yeah I'm going to blatantly offensive to them on purpose. Not all of them, just the ones who insult me because I think being gay is disgusting.

Its honestly not hard for everyone to show general respect to one another, and I'm more than willing to do so...but this new day gay movement is getting out of hand to where its encroaching upon the things I'm allowed to say or think.


You know, we have a simple solution to this. Every online game includes some form of mute/ignore/kick feature. If you're offended, MAKE USE OF IT instead of bitching all over the place about how "Everyone's so close minded and hates you".

/rage
Queer
# Feb 19 2010 at 3:10 AM Rating: Good
Guru
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1,225 posts
I know it's just one word but "queer" was derogatory before it was adopted by the gay community. It's not my fault that one group of society wants to be known as strange, weird, suspicious, not quite right, etc.

Still, there's nowt so queer as folk.
____________________________
Firelox

Ironic
# Feb 19 2010 at 2:19 AM Rating: Good
The vast majority of the comments on this article prove the author's point. :(
Ironic
# Feb 19 2010 at 4:01 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
16 posts
Really rather sad isn't it? I almost feel like I'm at the WoW main forums, not the ZAM ones. I always considered these ones to be a bit more level headed, but it looks like I was way off base there.
Harassment is harassment.
# Feb 19 2010 at 12:34 AM Rating: Good
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189 posts
I think the article should have been aimed more at harassment in general. It's not right to harass anybody for anything regarding race, sex or religion. I do agree that a lot of this homophobia isn't really directed at being homosexual. I do think that people should at least have some manners when they engage in these games. A lot of people pay good money to play these games and it is not fair to be harassed while they are trying to enjoy something in their lives. There are people who proudly advertise being jewish, italian, black, etc and it's the same as advertising being gay. Also, I've played online games long enough to know that people will harass you anyways. If being abusive makes a few ignorant punks feel better then that's fine, but I don't think anybody should have to pay money each month to deal with it.

With that being said, don't ruin the game for other people. If you are a racist bigot homophobe, save it for the klan rallies. Games are for people who want to get away from the world's problems not to mention their own. Even though I agree that people shouldn't be so sensitive, but I also believe that doesn't mean you can't have manners.
wow...
# Feb 19 2010 at 12:14 AM Rating: Default
If gays don't want to be bothered then why don't they SHUT THE @#%^ UP about their lives. You don't see me saying anything about my live.

You want to be gay then fine, I have gay friends and they never make a fuss about it. And guess what! They've never been harassed to my knowledge; hell they don't even act the stereotype.

"You're" like the fat kid in school that whines about gym vs the fat kid that goes out and tries his best; guess which one gets picked on more.

So damn sick and tired of this politically correct crap; people are such freakin whimps it's pathetic.


PS: slow day at the ZAM News Room....again

Edited, Feb 19th 2010 1:18am by Dyner
____________________________
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wow...
# Feb 19 2010 at 1:06 AM Rating: Decent
3 posts
Are you so lost in the way society is that you cannot sit back and critically think this one threw. When you marry your wife or husband is that or is that not a public announcement of your sexuality? When a parent says to their gay child, "Your mother and I do not flaunt our sexuality", the statement it self is flaunting sexuality.

Back to the point. This article is not about whining or crying about how we as gays are picked on during recess, this is about common human decency. If your gay friends said they never have issues with people because they are gay...they are lying and your attitude towards gays is most likely one of the reasons they do so. I think the key words there are "...to my knowledge."

Here is the fact. I am gay and I have no problem standing up for myself. I work in a game store and hear "fag, that's gay"...all the damn time and I kick them out of my store. If you want to follow this up with more ignorant spew. I will gladly meet it head on. :)
wow...
# Feb 19 2010 at 12:56 AM Rating: Good
Sage
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77 posts
the only problem with that logic is its things like people using gay as a term for something that is bad or faggot as an insult that is equally homophobic and upsetting for homosexual people
#vassagogoth, Posted: Feb 18 2010 at 11:46 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This is just ffing sad...so ffing sad...why oh why is this article even being posted???
#Thalios, Posted: Feb 18 2010 at 11:35 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The Homophobic 'word' was a convenient phrase thought up by the gay's to try to 'label' those that found their chosen lifestyle disgusting. Phobic would denote a 'fear of', lol straight folks aren't "afraid" of you, don't flatter yourself... we need a word or phrase for disgusted by, revolted by, sickend by... or maybe one for "keep your sex choices to yourself and stop parading around expecting some special rights" phrases. Nobody cares what your personal sex choices are! I'm a guy... I like Women... I have a normal sex life... I don't attend national straight pride parades or demand some special rights... You made a choice, live with it, just don't expect everyone to automatically accept your perversion. Better yet, keep it to yourself and live your life. Why is this even a 'story'?
get real
# Feb 19 2010 at 3:59 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
16 posts
Aside from the seething hatred and bile you spew (which you may consider talking to someone about), you got a fairly important distinction wrong here. Being gay is not a choice (or a perversion, but that's your own thing to deal with). We are who we are and have been our whole lives. I'm sorry you are so threatened by something that doesn't effect you in the slightest, but putting US in the wrong here isn't really fair.
get real
# Feb 19 2010 at 1:17 AM Rating: Decent
3 posts
...Wow, really? Every day is national straight day! I can't believe you could even write this and think it a sound argument. Being a gay man I guess I should create another word to label someone like you...hhmmm, lets see. How about bigot? No, that one is already created but we can be delusional and say a gay person made it up.
Whinin' homos
# Feb 18 2010 at 11:28 PM Rating: Decent
20 posts
Score -1 for the homosexuals.

Makes you look even more whinier. Could your wrists possibly get anymore limp already?

I'm deaf. The games are going more and more dependant on using vocal communication. Do you see me flopping on the floor screaming that it isn't fair? Kid... shuddup. They're just making it even more amusing to poke fun of homosexuals now that they've painted an even larger target on their face.

Bend over and take it up the @$$ like everyone else online.
____________________________
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Whinin' homos
# Feb 19 2010 at 1:19 AM Rating: Default
3 posts
Your not man enough to take it up the @$$
Such a tired subject....
# Feb 18 2010 at 10:42 PM Rating: Decent
4 posts
Alright. First of all let me state I have nothing against gay people. I live in Canada. Both USA and Canada are free countries. If you believe in freedom then just let homosexual people live their lives. Now the internet is a terrible place. I have played WoW for many years. People need keep their REAL world politics out of it. PITA and LGBT keep your filthy hands out of it. The last thing people want is a reminder of a world so bad we need to go to Azeroth to forget. I understand your feelings are hurt and you disagree with people but keep it to the proper audience.
Yes I will admit to calling things "gay". Does it mean im homophobic? No. It's become a popular generic insult much like punk or beatnick. Yes both of those were targeted very specifically at a group of people who were disliked. But to use those terms now they feel outdated and redundant. Now if homosexual people lay off all of this the term "gay" will be ousted just like punk and beatnick.
I understand homosexuals get picked on in video games as much as real life. I know somewhat how it feels as I am part jewish. I however wont go announcing it. Going into a game populated by alot of the general population who hate gay people is like me going to Palastine and announcing im a Jew. What do you think the outcome will be? Not pleasant. So I keep it to myself and play WoW as a fictional character to have fun.
I am a strong believer in gay rights and human rights for that matter. Too many people lose sight in these matters and start accusing others who have no part in it of wrong doing. Is it Microsoft's fault people are homophobic? NO! Then why blame them? Spreading education may help the problem but it wont fix it. Time in this case may be the only option. The world isn't perfect but some people feel they have to push that it is and they can be the ones to change it. Best of luck to you. I hope one day we wont have to worry about these things but for now, LEAVE IT OUT OF OUR MMOS AND VIDEO GAMES AS A WHOLE.
Today's Youth
# Feb 18 2010 at 10:31 PM Rating: Default
1 post
Look I semi-agree with Dark. The world needs thicker skin in general. It's not having it that got a lot of our problems started in the first place. Someone gets offended at what someone else says and they sue or get even or start some group to bash the others in retaliation. Something as simple as "You're such a dork." may at one point offend those that play games or the people who go to the con's every year.
See if someone pisses me off, I know I don't have to stoop to their level or return fire, because I can just turn it off, change the channel, or ignore it. Now if someone punches me in the face you bet your ass I'll finish them off. I know you can't make fun of me or put me down. I've tried it myself and I've run the gamut of derogitory putdowns. Even ones that I would never say in public.
Look I'm personally against the idea of homosexuals... but I don't have to put them down. I just inform them that I disaprove of their ways and wish that they would keep their private matters to themselves. I don't tell everyone about my exploits and they don't want to hear them. I also disaprove of gay marriage, not because of the "I think it's wrong" issue, I have no problem with that, it is the legal loopholes they can exploit and all of the havoc they can cause to the already screwed up legal system. For instance, when a person get's healthcare through their company that they work for their spouse can get the same coverage as well. This could lead to people getting married to others just for the healthcare benifits. Also when a spouse dies they can then receive death benifits from them. So many loopholes that need to be closed before this can happen. If a Man and a Man or a Woman and a Woman want to have all the glories and misfourtunes of being married I'm all for it.
But back on the subject, just because some one uses the word "gay" or "jew" or anything else that may be used negitively doesn't mean they are sexist or racist or any of that. I just means that they are using a new deffined version of the word. Look through out history at how words have evolved. Much of what we say today mean ENTIRELY different things back in the 50's. Let alone the 1800's and 1000's. Socitey has changed by leaps and bounds, and much of what was taboo is now acceptable. We just need to learn to understand that some are just ignorant and others just have a lesser vocabulary. It may be unacceptable in your culture but it could be a different thing in someone else's. Shouldn't we all learn to accept others culture for what it is and not slam them for what they believe in, even if it is wrong to us?
Today's Youth
# Feb 19 2010 at 1:07 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
38 posts
PsycoScout wrote:
it is the legal loopholes they can exploit and all of the havoc they can cause to the already screwed up legal system. For instance, when a person get's healthcare through their company that they work for their spouse can get the same coverage as well. This could lead to people getting married to others just for the healthcare benifits. Also when a spouse dies they can then receive death benifits from them.


And straight people would never dream of exploiting those same loopholes
____________________________
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Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total F@#&wad
#vassagogoth, Posted: Feb 18 2010 at 11:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Hey Psyco...thx for that wall of text...
lifestyles and how "phobic" are you
# Feb 18 2010 at 9:10 PM Rating: Default
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79 posts
Ok take for example, @#%^philia. Any man over the age of 18 who has sexual images or has sexual relations with a girl under 18 can be persecuted as a @#%^phile in the United States. As a culture, not religion, we have deemed that wrong and improper. Yet no more then 2 years ago a 9 year old MARRIED a 30 something year old man in another country and a judge ruled it fair.

Lets look at Polygamy. Many people think its ok for you to love someone of the same sex but it is wrong to love multiple people of the opposite sex. So your saying their pursuit of happiness is not as important as someone of homosexual nature?! Where is the line drawn between right and wrong. You can punish a man for having 2 wife's yet claim separation of CHURCH and STATE when it benefits your own desires. You deserve whatever ridicule from "Trolls" you get. If your not strong enough to stand up for what you believe in then get the hell out of the way!

If I believed in Polygamy I'd be like hey that is my life and I enjoy it. If I were a homosexual, I'd say that is my life and I enjoy it.

I'm just saying the world lately needs thicker skin. We can't be all sensitive to EVERYONE'S needs. Only the strong survive in this world and if you can not survive through physical strength alone you must have superior mental capability to overcome the same obstacles.

And things in other countries and cultures that we see as BARBARIC and SICKENING are their everyday lives.
Who's really to blame here?
# Feb 18 2010 at 9:07 PM Rating: Good
3 posts
Yes, the hate talk LGBTs suffer in MMOs is brutal. But the hate talk EVERYONE suffers in MMOs is brutal. Women are abused. Younger kids are abused. Older folks are abused. People who live at mom's house are abused. The disabled are abused. Jews are abused. Atheists are abused. Blacks are abused. You wouldn't believe the stuff the Chinese and Japanese spew at each other. Roleplayers. Casuals. Canadians! And on, and on, and on.

This is a genre that spawns outrageously sexist, degrading games like Age of Conan. It's no wonder it attracts and foments a culture of offense toward the out-group du jour. It's one gigantic frat house of vile, obnoxious "bros", supported by the companies themselves (such as the infamous decision, later reversed, by Blizzard a few years ago, to outlaw LGBT guilds). So we can hardly ask why these host companies do nothing -- they've created the foundation for the vitriol, they've enabled the offenders both with their rules and their scenery.

About twelve years ago I had the displeasure of watching my UO character be "raped" by another character, complete with elaborate emotes. The GMs had the guy banned within 5 minutes of my guildies paging them. This definitely isn't a new phenomenon, but I'd bet my bottom dollar Blizzard wouldn't respond at all to such a petition, let alone ban so quickly. And that is what is new.
phobia?
# Feb 18 2010 at 8:39 PM Rating: Decent
6 posts
I know this is more of a side issue, but since a phobia is a fear of something, I'd say a lot of people who oppose or otherwise speak negatively about homosexuality aren't phobic. They just don't like it or don't agree with it. The same logic would make a man guilty of religiophobia for speaking against religion, when in fact he may simply dislike it or disagree with it. And we could go on and on, with alcoholophobia, gender-phobias, politicophobia, etc.

Ironically, society has taken to using a term that's deliberately degrading (homophobia) to describe people who don't necessarily treat homosexuals in a way that's deliberately degrading. That's a double-standard. Not everyone who disagrees with or expresses opposition to homosexuality is mean, rude, degrading, or disrespectful, and not all (probably not most) fear them. Some people actually speak their minds in a non-hostile way, even if we don't like what they're saying, and it's not done from fear.

That said, there is no cause to speak hostile and rude as many people do against (insert group here).

Now, as a previous poster noted, there's another issue, and that's joking about different groups. I don't get my feathers ruffled when someone makes jokes about me and the fact that I'm (insert thing that's different); I've learned to get over myself. But society has taken to defending a few groups (a VERY few) and allowing everything else to go on. We're so sensitive today that a movie like Blazing Saddles would never be allowed to enter the movie theatres. But part of having the liberty we have is that people have liberty to oppose or make fun of you.
phobia?
# Feb 20 2010 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
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799 posts
it is called a "phobia" because there is no rational reason for fearing it.
And you can't "agree" or "disagree" with a trait that is not a question of opinion.

Do you "agree" with red hair?
There is nothing to agree or disagree with. it is not a choice, it is not a political statement, it is not an opinion. It is not something that CAN be agreed or disagreed with.

being gay is an identity issue. it is who you are.

do you agree or disagree with black people? what exactly would "disagreeing" with black people involve? "hey, I don't think black people should be... black". That makes absolutely no sense.

The only way you can use the term "agreement" in regards to homosexuality, is if you believe it is a CHOICE. And I'm sure that you, as a rational person, are not dumb enough to think that anyone would consciously CHOOSE to be gay, right?

I "disagree" with smokers". But smoking is a choice.
I generally disagree with Republicans. But then, political affiliation is a choice.
I almost always disagree with my sister.. but then, she's my sister.

Every time someone states "live and let live" and follows that up with "even if I disagree with your lifestyle", they demonstrate a profound misunderstanding of what homophobia is. To state that it is something upon which there can be "agreement" is to make it something it is not: a choice.
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far too common
# Feb 18 2010 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
2 posts
Not so sure about that, Dark. I regularly see trolls (Net trolls, not Horde trolls) throwing out trash talk in Trade Channel directed at racial, ethnic or religious groups and there is nearly always a large number of /2 posters who shout them down. But similar comments of an anti-gay nature often are ignored or even propagated. If I were gay, it would bother me. In fact, I'm not gay but it STILL bothers me.

Thank goodness for expanded Ignore lists.
homophobia in MMOs
# Feb 18 2010 at 7:39 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
322 posts
I have found that a simple and polite "I find what you just said offensive {degrading, etc.} and unnecessary. Please try to be more sensitive and respectful to ALL people." I have this on a macro and use it when I see women, gays, muslems, etc. made the brunt of jokes or insensitive remarks. Sometimes I get rude reactions but more often I get an apology. I never get into a fight or discussion.
homophonia
# Feb 18 2010 at 7:26 PM Rating: Decent
5 posts
This is the same thinking that is going on with Palin. No one cares that the guy dropped the F bomb in a meeting, they just cared that he said "retarded." Really, which one is more offensive?
boundries
# Feb 18 2010 at 7:14 PM Rating: Default
*
79 posts
So let me get this straight,

We can joke about race, politics, celebrities, terrorism, religion, and sexism but as soon as we joke about homosexuals something is wrong... wow.. seriously.. stop being such wusses. If your proud of what you are take the heat and stand strong no matter what! So what if your gay be gay and proud but not angry at others who are going to give you crap till the end of time.
boundries
# Feb 18 2010 at 11:25 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
16 posts
Fairly sure no one said your racist jokes were good either, it's amazing, but you can actually converse in games without being offensive to anyone at all. Strange concept I know.
boundries
# Feb 19 2010 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
15 posts
I just love how straight people justify their hatred. Pretty sad.
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