Just a thought here, but I would like to know what any issues would be with making "adjustable difficulty instances/dungeons". What I mean by that is, when you enter the instance dungeon, the server does the normal checks for level and all but also checks your party/raid size and automatically adjusts the difficulty. They could even implement a system where once you have entered, you can not change the party size. I guess the only problem I have seen with it so far is if someone has a connection issue but I am sure with all the people Blizzard has working for them they could come up with a reasonable fix. It just seems to be a good way to cater to everyone. I mean, whats the difference if you have 25 people in a raid or 2 people in the same instance if the difficulty is the same. They could even make it where the in the smaller parties that the high end drops have less chance of droping.

BTW, yes, I am one of your so called "bad players", or casual players. I have always been this way the entire time I have been playing MMOs (starting way back with AC). And yes, I would love to be able to see some of the high end content. Do I want it to be easy to get, not a chance, but I would at least like to know that it would be attainable without massive amounts of my real life time devoted on a daily basis and that I wouldnt get "tarred and feathered" if I had something more interesting come up unexpectedly. Even knowing it would take me a long time having to build up through tiered equipment to get to it would be fine. At least I would know it was possible some day. On top of that the way I was talking about would still allow raid guilds to get the stuff and get it faster.

Just an idea though. Would love some feedback on it.

To the persons before me who suggested Blizzard should differentiate in raids for casuals and raids for "elite" players, where the elite players could distinguish themselves with better gear, you are still missing the point. Blizzard doesn't want a small minority to be able to obtain better gear than the rest. They want to cater to the casual player. And you can try to magically conjure a third group and call them "bad" players, all you want, but that's not how it is. There's people like me, casual players, and people who have far more dedication and time and want to be the top of the world, like Ensidia. We, the casual's are a great majority of the player base. And we want to be able to get the top gear too. Blizzard knows this, and also knows, that if the casual can't get the top gear, they might leave out of boredom, or because they feel they, the majority of the playerbase, are left out.

It has been said many times before: guilds like Ensidia, should not be considered the "default" when it comes to guild-capabilities and player-skill.

Then there's also the issue of defining what a "casual" is. Many players giving their reactions here, agree with Ensidia, yet call themselves "casual". The fact that they agree with Ensidia, simply means they're not the casual player Blizzard is aiming their content at. You all have to realize that, although, the outraged group agreeing with Ensidia seems[/i large, it's just a [i]minor, albeit very vocal, part of the playerbase. It gives a skewed picture.

I agree with the post stating that the game is split into several camps.

I came from the EQ world, which I left after Planes of Power since it was obvious that SOE was targeting hardcore raid guilds with the end game content in releases. I'm not sure why a company would cater to less than 5% of its player base with new content and alienate the other 95%. Sure SOE threw the non-core some content but most was aimed at end game raiders.

It seems that Blizzard is trying to find a happy medium, and I'm not sure that's possible, but from a business aspect they are going to release what they feel will reach, retain and grow the subscriber base. If they lose the upper 3-5% (not sure the number) of the customer base cause it's not challenging enough, so be it that means their won't be lvl 80s sitting for hours in SW or IF in their newly acquired T7 armor and clogging up chat with "helpful advice" and they retain a large majority of the casual players with the new content, which do think they will choose?

I did the "hardcore" raiding for a couple of months in EQ and realized that it's not for me, so now I'm a casual player that likes to occasionally raid and that's working for me and that's why I like WoW. EQ was pretty much all group oriented and that was fine since that all there was at the time, but taking an hour to find a group then dealing with downtime to fill slots in said group, really got old. If that were implemented in WoW I'd be the first to bail, I like being able to come home from work and play an hour or so before my family gets home.

I don't want the game too easy, but at the same time I don't want to spend money on an expansion pack that I won't have the opportunity to see most of the content because I don't play 30-40 hours a week...

Edited, Nov 26th 2008 9:09am by Selexa

I have to fully concur with them...

I'm a casual player. I am not a raider. I've never raided (save for a couple of encounters). I PvP for epics. I run heroics when I feel like it. But I spend time learning the game. I spend time learning the best gear, the best enchants, the best tactics for my level of play that I can achieve. I hate spending 3 hours in a heroic (I don't have that kind of time to just sit 3 hours straight). I want access to higher level gear without having to devote my time to a raiding schedule or raiding. I LOVED badge gear. I enjoyed PvP epics. I level many alts (which are all mostly 70 with a few 60s and a 30 sitting around).

With that said, I enjoyed the challenge of heroics. I enjoyed a challenge in 5 man instances. I remember up until the infamous patch that nerfed you were lucky to get through Ramparts with an at level group unless they had done it before and knew their class. I miss the possibility of wiping repeatedly. I miss having to figure things out. I miss having to heal/sheap/mash aggro buttons on the fly or else someone (usually me) ends up dead or lambasted by my party members).

This game I play for fun. I don't see it as a major life accomplishment. I respect hardcore raiders freedom to do what they do, but at the same time have no desire to do anything on a schedule.

I try to tune my builds for the best possible use, but refuse to take out my individuality from it. Sometimes I'll spec into something that someone says isn't that great because I like how it plays. I don't have top kills in BGs. I don't always have top DPS in heroics (although usually only the best of raiders could pass my mage pre patch 3.0). But I aim to do my best. I aim to learn my class. I read up on skills. I read up on game mechanics. I read up on lore.


Since the patch the game has gone down into the toilet. Instances are a joke. Heroics are a joke. I'm not perfect. I'm not the best player. Some of my characters are kind of pathetic. I expect to PAY for being badly geared. So that I have a challenge to overcome.

Personally, I found kara to be difficult (laugh as you may). I found some heroics to be ridiculously hard. But I ENJOYED it. I enjoyed going through instances AT LEVEL and having to fight my way through so I felt like I accomplished something. But now everything is just pathetic.

This is a game right? None of it is tangible. All I can walk away with is some entertainment and a sense of accomplishment. Like completing a cross word puzzle. Nobody cares. It won't change my day. It doesn't make me a better person. But its a personal accomplishment. But its like Blizzard exchanged our New Yorks Times crossword puzzles with children's place mats.


I was all game for PVP epics, badge gear, 10 man raids, and a general opening up of the content to more players. But never, by any means, did I want content dumbed down. I wanted ACCESS to more content. I wanted the ability to play at a casual rate and access more content. But I never wanted the game simplified to the point I don't have to think to survive an instance.

As the OP pointed out. This isn't a matter of Casual Vs. Hardcore. This is Bad Players vs. Good Players. Noobs vs. The State. Blizzard isn't catering to casual. Blizzard is catering to noobs. Not newbs. Noobs.

I'm letting my subscription fizzle...time to maybe find a new game...

Well after reading this post I felt the urge to drop my opinion here.

First of all I'll situate myselve as player.
I like questing(solo & group),dungeons(regular & heroic),Raiding(Old,BC and later on wotlk).
I do play on average 2 hours a day.This instead of watching telly.That doesn't mean I don't have a life neither.
I do spend my time in the real-world as well and more.

Blizz launched Wotlk on 13/11/2008 and poof everyone rushes off to the new content.
Cause they need to get lvl 80 asap and before everyone else.
As I've witnessed only 3 days after, someone achieved a Realm First on lvl80.Then I go my god!! Why do you rush these things?
Just to come back 2 weeks later and start whining that you're bored?

Now don't get me wrong everyone deserves to play the game they want.So if you want to rush off to the new content and be lvl 80 in 3 days.Perfect.But don't come complaining that you're bored a few weeks later or expect everyone to follow your footsteps.

You also need to respect the people who do take things in moderation.
Those people may be bad players as some would classify them.But perhaps they're just inexperienced in it and still need to learn or they just want to have a bit of fun without any effort as a relax and escape from the daily stress at work or in real life.

The fact is they are in the same game as the top-players and they perhaps do want to get in on Kara or BT or ZA.
Does this mean they wouldn't be allowed to enjoy this as the top-raiders think it's to easy and want to raise the bar?
No,they have the same rights to enjoy this as well.
Does this mean it should be all a walk in the park.No,there has to be a bit of a challenge for everyone.
But that's just the problem with an online game.How to set a dificulty lvl that benefits everyone?
On offline games you always have 3 settings and perhaps a 4th that you can unlock.
But for online games it's a lot more complicated.
It could be simply introducing different settings like they did with the heroic setting.
Perhaps it's possible to introduce a new setting called hardcore or elite.

But then you'll see a lot of whining of the elite on the fact that a regular played who does the same challenge on normal gets the same drops as the elite that does it on elite-setting.
Wich is totally normal as you can't create different content on such things.
Or you would need to create totally different realms and settings to log-in.
What can be done is by distributing badges as rewards for those higher settings.
But this in the end will only benefit 1 part of a player group.

But in the end don't we all need to get a bit back to the basics of and MMO-game?
It stands for Massively Multiplayer Online.
What's the purpose? Play with different people on different moments through different events.

If the elite is only letting other Elite players in and the Regular player only gets groups with Regular players.
Then we keep running the same content always with the same people.

Why wouldn't the Elite share their knowledge with the regular players?
Why not helping a regular player that's playing for several months perhaps years on the same game with the knowledge of an elite player?
Why just tossing them away with the statement "your gear is crap".
Earn some better gear and then we will pehaps let you in to jump through some more rings and hoops before you get started.

But if for that player the only gear that could improve him would be those harder challenges?
But he can't complete those with a set of regular players and needs some top-end guidance.Be it strategy wise or gear-wise.

See the infinite circle you're in??

Now elites shouldn't rush out and start assisting everyone that just can't kill any regular mob neither.
But if there would be assistance and guidance from the elite to the regulars.Then wouldn't it benefit you as elite in the end?Cause in the end you'll have a player that has the gear and knows how to play to assist you in your raids.
On the other side the regular player perhaps doesn't understand what it means to get better gear or why it's needed as he never enters such a place.Perhaps if you take him along and show it to him.He could start liking it and become just like you.

If you show people why it's widely more accepted then when just telling them.
That's simply inherent to us humans.We always doubt once words but accept the shown facts.

On the other hand the regular player perhaps can return the fun that you could have lost as an elite in simply enjoying the game and not seeing it as a daily taks.That gets you totally over the top and in the red is someone makes a bad pull and causes a wipe.

Think back to those days where you need to learn to swip or ride a bike/car/motorcycle.
Didn't you have someone to teach it to you?
Or did they simply tell you "your handling (=gear) is crap". Go fetch some better handling and come back then.
Perhaps I can teach you then.

As a final word to this long post.
We all have a lot of stress in the big bad world that's called real life.
why not leave that behind and get some fun time when playing togheter online?
It's a game that you play to get your mind away from the daily troubles adn life ain't a game.

Woot - I'm famous - they quoted me on the front page lol

3) Player-classes:
-Raider
-Casual
-Lazy Casual


Paladin: completely replaced t4 + badge (tier 1 badge) with quest/AH items from Wrath-content
Average Gameplay Time: 4hrs a day (many times just idle in city)
Gameplay: Casual -turned- Casual Raider (i dont kid myself)

most of you (lazy-casuals) still think the raids are like MC Raider song...

TBC removed the 40hrs+ raid; at most you need is 4hrs twice a week (8hrs total) to effectively clear all the TBC raids.


i'm a raider...i have a job, i go to classes, i go out on the weekends...and yet twice a week i am (well, was till Wrath came out now it's lvlin-time!) still able to devote 8hrs a week to raid.


you dont get a pay raise for just showing up to work...

you dont get a free-win playing sports (i highly doubt any of those who say this easy-mode is great actually play any type of sport)...



"but we're the majority!": who said so? prove it. not to mention you LAZY-casuals (aka BADs) are also the first to jump-ship to go play a new game (go on, say it "nuhuh, i dunt" because of course you will not lie..). so yes, lets have blizzard cater to a group of players who have the attention span of a damn ADHD-brat on a sugar-high (sugar just provides you the fuel..it doesn't MAKE you hyper), who will probably leave again at the next new release of an MMO. all the while pushing the hardcore players that will not leave (unless the servers are shutdown) away, by..COMPLETELY REMOVING ALL CHALLENGE (and reason to play) FROM THE GAME

it's not even raids that are easy. i have a lvl 77 paladin...i have soloed EACH and EVERY 'group' quest that was 3-or-less "Suggested Players: ". i have seen general chat that goes along the line of "that's easy just solo it" and when you shift-click their name...they aren't even able to wear plate so yes...there doesn't seem to be much reason to even group up for quests.

the fun doesn't stop there...more and more i see groups running instances with out a healer just a tank and dps (not even a DK or retadin). and what do you know...they clear the instance just fine.


no one seems to understand, raiders dont care about casuals; they care about LAZY-casuals. who demand all the rewards with ZERO time invested.


go on now and commence the flaming of how you lazy-casuals are just as entitled to gear and achievements as the raiders and casuals, because this is the only place where you will get your way.

I've been playing WoW for over three years and I still haven't completed some of the pre-BC end game stuff. I find the game plenty challenging. But then, I only play for a short time Monday through Friday and then several hours on the weekends. I also spend a lot of time farming mats for my skills (rather than just letting one of my higher level toons buy the mats). I suppose the game is too easy for someone who plays many many hours a week and doesn't really have to farm.

OTOH, I did think it kind of silly for them to dumb down EVERYTHING with their 2.3 (or whichever it was) patch. I play solo most of the time, and some of the challenge has gone out of some of the early quests (and probably some of the later quests).

I don't think the game is too easy for someone who is starting a new character on a new server with no previous characters to help them power level or buy gear for them while they are moving up through the ranks.

Personally, I still find WoW to be the most fun game I've ever played, and I've been gaming since the only "electronic" games were pinball machines - electronic because they wouldn't work if they weren't plugged in.