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Disenchant option 3.3 a bad thing for enchanters?Follow

#27 Dec 15 2009 at 9:00 PM Rating: Good
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Personally, I've never sold my mats on the AH, but then again that's due to me being part pack rat and having a main and five functioning alts.
#28 Dec 16 2009 at 6:54 AM Rating: Excellent
This is a great improvement for the customers, and a blow to the supplier's cash flow.

I would think that the point is, many more people can now get their mats from farming dungeons and heroics.

It's enough to have an enchanter in the instance with you in order to have a chance at a dust/shard/crystal instead of a BoP (or even boe greens). This might have been the same before, if your enchanter was upfront about his tradeskill and didn't mind D/Eing EVERYTHING that dropped. But that wasn't always the case.

With the abundance of new materials and new drops, there is a lot more demand for enchants, but not for enchanting mats. People who need enchants are mostly getting their mats from the huge number of runs they can now make per day. The old days of overpricing enchanting mats are gone on my server, and soon to be over on all servers, if this trend continues.
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#29 Dec 16 2009 at 9:40 PM Rating: Good
idiggory wrote:
Of course they took an initial dive. After everyone has been running 20 instances a day since Tuesday? But they'll come back up after people start running them less (which is already happening. It takes about 3x as long to get a group on my tank now as it did on Wednesday).




Actually this initial rush of upgrades is artificially preserving the price. Once people are out of the flurry of upgrades and only running the heroics for badges or maybe that one upgrade they still need, more epic gear will be DE-ed since people won't be doing upgrades, less enchants will be needed, same or only slightly less mats will be disenchanted from the random drops.

The price isn't an initial dive, the price is an artificial high. Look at JC. It's gone up quite a bit because of increased demand and not an increased supply. It's easy to see enchanting has both increased supply and demand right now, and the inflated demand isn't going to last all that long.
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#30 Dec 16 2009 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

The price isn't an initial dive, the price is an artificial high. Look at JC. It's gone up quite a bit because of increased demand and not an increased supply. It's easy to see enchanting has both increased supply and demand right now, and the inflated demand isn't going to last all that long.


That was in response to the report that their server had taken a dive.

On my server, prices have gone up a gold or two, but that's all.

But you have to remember. ICC won't be out completely until the end of January/early February.

People are going to be continuing to upgrade for months after this. A LOT of players aren't getting upgrades in the Heroics, but the raids are another story.

That means demand will remain high for the epic enchants for quite a while.
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#31 Dec 17 2009 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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I fail to see the point of the OP. Before 3.3 hit, I'd greed on BOE greenies, just like everyone else in the group. After the run I'd send my greenies to my Enchanting-alt, or to a friend who's Enchanter, who'd return the mats to me. Nothing changed there, except that, with an enchanter present, you don't have to use the mail system anymore.
As for blues or purples, nothing changed there either. Before 3.3, at the start of a run, you'd ask if there was an enchanter there. If there was, he/she would DE blues and purples, and we would all roll on the shards at the end of the run. Now we won't have to wait till the end of the run, and the Enchanter has less buttons to push.

Enchanters still have the same chance to get greenies/blues/purples, as before, when they used the "greed" button. For all intents and purposes they have the same chance at getting their mats, as before. It's not like, before 3.3, you would just hand gear over to the enchanter to keep, just because he's an enchanter...
And except for people who have nobody to send their greenies to, non-enchanters still have the same chance at getting those mats, as well. Instead of rolling Greed, they roll DE when an enchanter is present, removing the need to send those greenies to an alt, or to roll on shards after the run.

Edited, Dec 17th 2009 4:57pm by Curois

Edited, Dec 17th 2009 4:59pm by Curois
#32 Dec 17 2009 at 12:15 PM Rating: Default
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First time any of my posts has been sub-defaulted (back to default by someone who didn't think they were totally off the mark I guess)

Quote:
The price isn't an initial dive, the price is an artificial high. Look at JC. It's gone up quite a bit because of increased demand and not an increased supply. It's easy to see enchanting has both increased supply and demand right now, and the inflated demand isn't going to last all that long.


I wholeheartedly agree with this. Yes, there's still a lot of ICC left to come out, and hard modes on top of that, but on the other hand, I doubt 100% of the wow 80s population is going to see ICC. Just look at this forums, there's some great posters here who state they haven't set foot in a raid for months. The demand is high for new enchants right now, and a high percentage of that demand (which keeps prices up) comes from non-raiders, who won't be upgrading their gear in a hurry (hello t10 being very expensive for non-raiders), and alts who might get a stab at ICC every so often, but which probably have seen quite a few upgrades recently, and will do so for a wee longer. I'd imagine prices will keep going down and have the odd spike when new wings are released, but it won't be as major a spkie as what I've seen in this patch.

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LGarth wrote:
Not trying to be mean, but I fail to see how an enchanter gets his profits these days.
If you can't find items to disenchant at a profit other than by going into instances, you haven't been doing it right. If you don't know how to get cheap stuff from the AH, then you are stupid. I was trying to find a different, less confrontational word to describe your position, but I couldn't. "stupid" it is.


I did mention on the OP that yes, there's the AH, and there's addons to help you with that. It's never too late to learn to read.

Quote:
Enchanters still have the same chance to get greenies/blues/purples, as before, when they used the "greed" button. For all intents and purposes they have the same chance at getting their mats, as before. It's not like, before 3.3, you would just hand gear over to the enchanter to keep, just because he's an enchanter...
And except for people who have nobody to send their greenies to, non-enchanters still have the same chance at getting those mats, as well. Instead of rolling Greed, they roll DE when an enchanter is present, removing the need to send those greenies to an alt, or to roll on shards after the run.


Disenchantnig horribly tedious, so I've never really disenchanted greens for anyone but myself (OH MY GOD I'M GREEDY), though never have I failed to DE for someone a blue or a purple in any run I've made. Interestingly enough, 3.2 and the ability to trade BoP with the rest of the run had changed (at least on my server) the old, "Need if you do, pass if you don't, greed to DE" mantra. For the last 2 months, whenever on an enchanting toon, I'd announce at the beginning I was an enchanter and I'd be happy to DE any blues or purples people got in the run. 99% of the time, people couldn't really be bothered, thus limiting supply. This was not me, but a shift in conduct server-wide, as it was about the same on my runs with my non-enchanter toons where whoever was an enchanter would follow suit and announce their trade. Did this make matts "artificially" expensive? Well, using the term artificial in a video game might be a little far-fetched in my opinion. But anyhow, that was how things were moving along.

Quote:
This is a great improvement for the customers, and a blow to the supplier's cash flow.


This is exactly my view, which might be a good thing for many, and a bad thing for enchanters.

Quote:
Before 3.3 hit, I'd greed on BOE greenies, just like everyone else in the group. After the run I'd send my greenies to my Enchanting-alt, or to a friend who's Enchanter, who'd return the mats to me.


Yes, but the existence of greens on the AH proves not everyone does in fact bother / doesn't have, any of those two options.

This change is here to stay for the time being, and that's that. But it's still a bad change for enchanters. Funny how after being flamed for being a greedy asshat or whatnot, as I expected, nobody has actually rebated the main point. I rest my case.
#33 Dec 17 2009 at 12:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yes, but EVERY proffession will be hit by that dip. That's the point. There's no reason, with the current way the economy is acting, to assume your profits are going to take a worse dip than other crafting professions (including JC).

This isn't unique to your craft.

You just lose the incredibly OP ability to dominate two markets in virtue of having a single profession. That's something no other craft had. This change gives you less ability to control it (but you still have more than a non-enchanter).

I've almost got my Pug. I've hit DE for essentially every item that has dropped, if available. I don't have half the mats for the high end enchants yet.

You are severely overestimating the amount of mats that are:

A. Being produced by Heroics/Reg runs.

B. Actually entering the market.


Will this result in a drop in profits if you don't bother making any change to what you are doing? Duh. But if you actually USE your craft, rather than the sub-craft, I wouldn't be surprised if you ended up making more money than before.

Why?

Because increases in the price of mats has a pretty fast increase in enchant prices (they've shot up on my server).

But drops in mat prices take much longer to be reflected in the end product's price.

Add in the fact that you can now get mats cheap, to supplement what you get naturally, and still have the same ability to buy greens off the AH, as well as the increased need for enchants over the next few months, and you'll be fine.

This change doesn't hurt the smart enchanter. Will it hurt the one who has no clue how to use it? Yes. But that just makes it on par with every other craft.

And it's still superior to many, as far as profit potential goes.
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#34 Dec 17 2009 at 2:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory wrote:

Because increases in the price of mats has a pretty fast increase in enchant prices (they've shot up on my server).

But drops in mat prices take much longer to be reflected in the end product's price.

Add in the fact that you can now get mats cheap, to supplement what you get naturally, and still have the same ability to buy greens off the AH, as well as the increased need for enchants over the next few months, and you'll be fine.

This change doesn't hurt the smart enchanter. Will it hurt the one who has no clue how to use it? Yes. But that just makes it on par with every other craft.

This.

Because there's no "... Step 4: Profit" blueprint for it in mmo-champion, my server hasn't yet realized that while Berserking scrolls used to be priced at mats+10% or so, the abyss crystals now cost half what they did when the equilibrium was set.

Flip just one of those, and you'll make back the entire (tiny) dip in the dust/essence reselling market /for your entire career/.

THAT is why the OP was wrong.

Sure, demand is at a high point right now. But even at the future low point (the doldrums before cataclysm when all but the most casual raiders are geared out for the content they can handle), it will be profitable - and as much so as any other profession. You just won't be able to faceroll 120% profit margins and will have to be satisfied with 40%...
#35 Dec 17 2009 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, but the existence of greens on the AH proves not everyone does in fact bother / doesn't have, any of those two options.

This change is here to stay for the time being, and that's that. But it's still a bad change for enchanters. Funny how after being flamed for being a greedy asshat or whatnot, as I expected, nobody has actually rebated the main point. I rest my case.

It has been refuted. You just didn't understand.

This change will not increase the number of materials available on the AH. The reason being that before, any greens that dropped in dungeons (which can be automatically DE'd now) would more than likely be purchased on the AH and disenchanted. This change cuts out the middle man, but does not impact the end result. If the price is dropping for enchanting materials, it's probably because everybody is running far more dungeons per day than they did before and there's an associated increase in the number of disenchantable items dropped.

Frankly, this thread started out with you supposedly asking for opinions, and it's turned into your crusade to show that somehow this change irreparably damages your profit margins. If you can't make money after the patch, I highly doubt you were making that much beforehand.
#36 Dec 18 2009 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory wrote:

A. Stop offering your services for optional tips. If you forced players to buy off AH, they would.


I've often wondered about this. Now that we can use scrolls made by inscribers to place our enchants on scrolls, why give away enchants for a (possible) tip? Of course when enchanters themselves were the only ones who could supply mats, this made sense in a way. Perhaps that is what this change will begin forcing 'chanters to do.
#37 Dec 18 2009 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I didn't read this whole thread, but I noticed enchanting mats have dropped heavily in price since this patch. They have practically been slashed in half.

Which for the most part is good for my characters. My main enchanter has actually turned into a bank/PVP alt that I rarely play. I just mail greens to that character, disenchant, and create my own enchants on scrolls and send them to the characters I actually play. So I'm happy the price of mats has dropped, it means next time I need berserking I don't have to farm as much gold for it.

It kind of sucks for the people who used it as their primary money-maker though. But I like the change. Now I get more materials for running dungeons - it gives me some incentive to keep running heroics on my overgeared characters who don't need anything from heroics.

And I can't have too much sympathy, I have mining on 2 characters and slowly watched that go from the most profitable profession to barely worth keeping. Now I just smelt and vendor my bars, who would have thought 9 months ago that we'd be vendoring saronite today?


An enterprising young enchanter would be buying up cheap mats and scrolls, especially with so many "casuals" getting small handfuls of enchanting mats there will always be people selling a handful well below market value. Keep an eye out for those deals, create scrolls and sell. Not a big deal.
#38 Dec 18 2009 at 5:47 PM Rating: Good
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mikelolol wrote:
I didn't read this whole thread, but I noticed enchanting mats have dropped heavily in price since this patch. They have practically been slashed in half.

On my server at least, the sequence is slightly more nuanced:
- Two or three weeks before the patch, there was a hotfix to significantly bump DE of infinite dust and cosmic essence. Things were great until market saturation caused a stampede while inventories were liquidated. Prices dropped to 30%-40% of original.
- After patch day, more shards started hitting the market, leading to a slow slide in price.
- After patch day, everyone (almost literally, realm first 25-man Yogg+0 kill was last night) getting new gear and needing enchants. Dust and essences back to 50-60% of original, shards stabilizing at 50-60% of original.

I expect the rate of new gear drops will slow down but not stop completely, since so few guilds will run completely out of content before Cataclysm. Stabilization at maybe 50% of pre-patch cost across the board? Since in the good old days, I could recoup about 120% of investment either in the JC crafting pipeline, the LW crafting pipeline, or the good old "buy greens and flip the dust" method, I expect they'll all still be profitable enough to justify a few minutes a day.

Oh, also not connected to enchanting... Saronite bars are going for almost exactly 1/8 of what titanium is going for (the ratio is no coincidence, alchemists aren't stupid). This is significantly above the vendor price (last night, it was 37g a stack).

Edited, Dec 18th 2009 6:56pm by ElMuneco
#39 Dec 23 2009 at 9:46 AM Rating: Default
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For all intents and purposes they have the same chance at getting their mats, as before.


Not entirely accurate - as you noted, you could send your junk greens to a friend or alt to DE for you - those who don't have that access would sell said greens on the AH or merchant them for cash with the AH stuff serving as DE bait for chanters farming the AH.

Mind you, as I've already noted, I still like this change - due to the fast pace of the instances I don't hit DE for greens as I like to take a look at them to see if an alt needs them but it is nice not having the boss drops not have to be vendored and my chanter alt is loving all the shards he's been getting from my mage.
#40 Dec 23 2009 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Not entirely accurate - as you noted, you could send your junk greens to a friend or alt to DE for you - those who don't have that access would sell said greens on the AH or merchant them for cash with the AH stuff serving as DE bait for chanters farming the AH.


"They" in that sentence clearly meant "Enchanters."

Which is true. Enchanter's chance to get the mats from a drop in a party is exactly the same as it was before.

[EDIT]

And, FYI to people claiming that enchanting is SO expensive to level. I am currently doing both Tailoring and Enchanting on a Mage alt.

He has not sold a single thing on the AH (none of the dropped gems. No enchanting mats. No greens. Nothing), but has bought items for his non-heirloom slots. The only money he has coming in is from quests and vendor trash.

Leveling BOTH skills to 225 (so far), I'm at 600 gold (down 400 from my 1K seed money).

To PL JC (alone), I had to spend well over 1K just to get here.

I seriously doubt I'm going to hit a point where I'm spending SO MUCH to level both, due to already planning my route. And I'm already bidding on items I know I'll need mats from. That's letting me get them VERY cheap.

And it has taken no work. I put way more energy into finding a cheap way to do JC, and I came out WAY over my current needed amount.

Enchanting is cheap as **** to level, if you aren't stupidly buying out any item that produces a mat you want. And doing that is still safer than doing it to level JC (and probably BS as well, at least).

Edited, Dec 23rd 2009 2:09pm by idiggory
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#41 Dec 24 2009 at 1:56 AM Rating: Good
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The DE Option has driven the price of dusts on my server from about 3g25s to, so far, 1g each.

It has completely killed any profits I had from the dust market, and I've had to start moving to scrolls.
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#42 Dec 24 2009 at 6:36 AM Rating: Decent
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It has completely killed any profits I had from the dust market, and I've had to start moving to scrolls.


Which, all opinions over whether or not it was a fair change aside, is probably exactly what Blizzard wanted.
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#43 Dec 27 2009 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
idiggory wrote:


Which is true. Enchanter's chance to get the mats from a drop in a party is exactly the same as it was before.



Yeah but other people then sold the greens on the AH, not the materials. Non-enchanters aren't too worried if they crash the market either. You have to admit that you were wrong about your predictions before.

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#44 Dec 27 2009 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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This thread is a little old now, as 3.3 is well under way and, yes, the market for enchanting matts has crashed around 60-70%, but just a little final note (at least as far as I'm concerned) ...

Quote:
It has been refuted. You just didn't understand.

This change will not increase the number of materials available on the AH.


You see, the thing is that the market has indeed been flooded with matts, supply being larger to demand compared to the previous status is what has driven the prices lower, it seems you were wrong after all. Furthermore, the supply side of the market has also taken a hike, as greens, blues and purples which were previously vendored or simply not disenchanted in instances (it did happen at least on my server as far as I know), are now entering the market as enchanting matts.
#45 Dec 27 2009 at 7:31 PM Rating: Good
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LGarth wrote:
This thread is a little old now, as 3.3 is well under way and, yes, the market for enchanting matts has crashed around 60-70%, but just a little final note (at least as far as I'm concerned) ...

Quote:
It has been refuted. You just didn't understand.

This change will not increase the number of materials available on the AH.


You see, the thing is that the market has indeed been flooded with matts, supply being larger to demand compared to the previous status is what has driven the prices lower, it seems you were wrong after all. Furthermore, the supply side of the market has also taken a hike, as greens, blues and purples which were previously vendored or simply not disenchanted in instances (it did happen at least on my server as far as I know), are now entering the market as enchanting matts.

99% of the crash in the market is because people are running far, far, far more dungeons now than they ever were before the patch, at ALL level ranges. The number of mats entering the market now compared to before due to this change is marginal - it is, in fact, equal to however many people were vendoring before and aren't now. Anyone who used to vendor their greens, and now chooses to DE them because there's an enchanter in their group, is causing an increase to the supply side of the market. But the idea that this is somehow remotely comparable to the influx of enchanting materials caused by the LFG change is ludicrous. Again, 99% of this is due to the LFG change and is completely unrelated to the new disenchant option.
#46 Dec 27 2009 at 7:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah but other people then sold the greens on the AH, not the materials. Non-enchanters aren't too worried if they crash the market either. You have to admit that you were wrong about your predictions before.


That post was simply correcting someone who falsely interpreted another poster. It wasn't meant to make a comment about the overall state of mats on the AH. That's irrelevant to the post in question.

However.

The fall on my server hasn't been even remotely that bad.

Before, Dream Shards went for 13-15G. Now they go for 11-12.

Abyss Crystals have dropped 4G.

Infinite Dust are most changed, since they've dropped 20-75 silver, depending on the day of the week. But they weren't profit before anyway.

The best part? Scrolls of Berserking are up TWO HUNDRED GOLD+.

Mongoose is up by 50-100G.

Black Magic is up 150-250 (I've seen it up to 350).

Maybe your server's economy sucks, but enchanters on mine are making just as much (if not more) than before.

People need enchants. Put enchants on AH. Simple.
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#47 Dec 28 2009 at 3:00 AM Rating: Decent
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99% of the crash in the market is because people are running far, far, far more dungeons now than they ever were before the patch, at ALL level ranges
I'd love to have a good excel spreadsheet with all the numbers to really know where the increase in supply comes from. With a vast majority of the wow population being at level cap, I'm inclined it stems from more matts entering the market post DE option, though.

As a side note, the new lfg tool is amazing for leveling toons, just had to say it.

Edited, Dec 28th 2009 4:07am by LGarth
#48 Dec 28 2009 at 6:31 AM Rating: Decent
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The thing is that enchanters may forget how few of them there actually are. Since you always have the DE option available, you don't see how many parties form without one. I'd say about 20-40% of my parties have had an enchanter in them.

Furthermore, those mats are being spread across 4-5 realms, generally. Think about how often you find yourself in a group with someone from your own realm. Those are the ONLY mats from your group that will affect your own server's economy.

So, the question is really how often people from your own server run instances. Because that's what will decide how many mats enter the market. If they have similar luck with partying, then 20% of their groups will let them gain some mats (maybe). Remember that you CAN EASILY go through an instance with the RNG factor and not get any mats. I've done it many times. Infinite Dust doesn't really count, since it was more profit to vendor most greens BEFORE patch 3.3 on my server.

I have trouble believing the DE change alone is causing much of anything. Once fewer instances are being run, prices will stop dropping (and it isn't clear to me that they will continue to drop at all, since we will be receiving a new wing soon).
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#49 Dec 28 2009 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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This thread is srz bizness!

I am enchanter and have been so since vanilla wow. A couple of points I would like to make here:

1. I leveled my enchanting solely from quest drops and dungeon runs and have never purchased a single mat from the AH (this is how it should be)

2. I have every profession leveled and none of them were as easy as enchanting to level besides maybe Alchemy and the gathering profs of course. Every other profession requires very expensive mats to get a skill up once you get past the fodder levels (for example: orbs, arctic fur, 50 thorium bars per item, etc..) where as enchanting has none of that for the most part.

3. I have made 50g tips at a time doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! Seriously...and I make them come to wherever I am for the most part.

4. I have also never tried selling scrolls because I have 6 level 80s and need every possible mat I can get to enchant their gear.

5. The LFG greed/disenchant thing is a cool feature. I know all you enchanters out there have to realize what a complete **** it is to get an enchanter to disenchant a non-enchanters greens and blues. As an enchanter I will NEVER disenchant for someone I don't know. Before the LFG tool people were always advertising for enchanters to DE their stuff and now its unecessary.

6. Abyss crystals are EVERYWHERE. Seriously get over it...

7. The only real problem I might have with this is the fact that enchanters can;t choose whether to let a group roll for DE or not. There should be an option to turn it off if the enchanter so allows. I know this example has been used many many many times, but a skinner NEVER shares what they skin and the group can't roll on it. I like for everyone to be treated fairly so if an enchanter must share their mats, so should skinners (leg kits anyone...we all need them and must purchase the mats on the AH). The same could also be said for mining and herbalism though so meh... (personlly I could care less about my groups getting to roll DE...I never kept the shards in dungeons anyway before this feature and always gave the abyss to either the tank or the healer).

8. I do wish that the enchanter in the group could be identified somehow so that group members knew the reason they were able to roll DE so that at least the enchanter could get a thank you or for those willing to offer a tip for their services. I have never had a group say thank you for being able to DE...a simple thanks goes a long way (just like you say thanks for fish feasts,mage food, buffs, etc..)

Overall, I like the new system and it improves PUG experiences because now lazy people are able to enchant their stuff and we all know that most PUGs are composed of the lazy peeps who don't want to farm rep or mats..at least on my server.
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#50 Jan 07 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Just out of curiousity, how would folks feel if you could "borrow" the professions of other folks in your party? Would you, as a jewelcrafter, have a problem with a miner mining ore in an instance and being able to immediately prospect it, courtesy of your JC skill? How about having a herbalist be able to borrow your inscription skill and get pigments/ink from it after herbing an item? What about anyone in the group having the ability to turn cloth into bolts using a tailor's skillset?

I'm not claiming a position either way, but I'm curious how y'all feel about that. Those seem like a very similar scenario to the D/E option; you have the existing system in place, except your greeded item can now borrow an enchanter's skill without their consent...

Cheers,
Jorge
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FuriousJorge

"Your theory is crazy, but not crazy enough to be true." - Niels Bohr
#51 Jan 07 2010 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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970 posts
FuriousJorge wrote:
Just out of curiousity, how would folks feel if you could "borrow" the professions of other folks in your party? Would you, as a jewelcrafter, have a problem with a miner mining ore in an instance and being able to immediately prospect it, courtesy of your JC skill? How about having a herbalist be able to borrow your inscription skill and get pigments/ink from it after herbing an item? What about anyone in the group having the ability to turn cloth into bolts using a tailor's skillset?

I'm not claiming a position either way, but I'm curious how y'all feel about that. Those seem like a very similar scenario to the D/E option; you have the existing system in place, except your greeded item can now borrow an enchanter's skill without their consent...

I've said it before, I believe in this very thread, but I don't even herb in dungeons. If someone in my party - explicitly there to help me accomplish my goals - wants to do it, I'd /gladly/ "loan" them my herbalism skill.
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