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Disenchant option 3.3 a bad thing for enchanters?Follow

#52 Jan 07 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Just out of curiousity, how would folks feel if you could "borrow" the professions of other folks in your party? Would you, as a jewelcrafter, have a problem with a miner mining ore in an instance and being able to immediately prospect it, courtesy of your JC skill? How about having a herbalist be able to borrow your inscription skill and get pigments/ink from it after herbing an item? What about anyone in the group having the ability to turn cloth into bolts using a tailor's skillset?

I'm not claiming a position either way, but I'm curious how y'all feel about that. Those seem like a very similar scenario to the D/E option; you have the existing system in place, except your greeded item can now borrow an enchanter's skill without their consent...

Cheers,
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They are actually EXTREMELY different from the DE option.

A. Mining and Prospecting

Prospecting's purpose is to increase the amount of gems in the market, so as to keep prices lower. If it did not exist, the price for an uncut gem would be immense, and the cut version ridiculously so. Prospecting ore itself is not a lucrative business (and you need a high level enchanter and alchemist to even make a decent return from it reliably). 20 Saronite can easily come out to be worth less post Prospecting.

Furthermore, gems are already available outside of Prosp. If you mine a Saronite node in an instance, you can get any gem that Prospecting the ore can give you. The latter sacrifices the ore for a guaranteed gem, yes. But the fact remains that the gems are readably available without the profession, even if much more annoying to obtain. Prosp. is meant to supply the JC with gems to use their crafting profession, not to be used as the primary skill.

Most importantly, unless the JC has quite a bit of money flowing in from another source, they NEED to take the Mining sub skill. So, if you are in an instance with another miner, you are already rolling (or letting them have the node) for whoever has the right to it. That miner could just as easily have said "Hey, how about you mine it and we roll for the gems?"

But here we come to the biggest road block--Prospecting requires 5 ore. It isn't a "per item" system like enchanting is. Do you just not have the option if you mine 4 ore? That means anything but a pure node won't offer the possibility. Do you let them prospect lower amounts of ore? Then that is giving an ADVANTAGE to non-JCers in regards to prospecting. You get to do it for smaller amounts than I do.

Also important is the fact that this is a privilege being given ONLY to the miner, where DE is a group option. So now you are giving one specific person the subskill from another profession without them having to take it (when the JC in question DOES need to take mining). But, the only way to make it fair would be for groups to roll on any ore and gems that are mined. But the whole point of that profession is to harvest items, which means you are completely breaking it in a group. And I'd love to see the Miner's reaction when they lose the roll on a TTS node to a non-miner in a Chillmaw group.

2. Herbalism is similar but still different.

A. Inscription is able to produce good glyphs at many skill levels, from a variety of herbs. And many of these glyphs will be used at cap. So prices don't soar like Enchanting prices did, when only top-level gear gives the mats you need.

B. Like Prospecting, it requires a gathering profession. If I want to make pigments, I either have to buy herbs or use a second profession to get the mats in order to make them. That means I cannot take up a second profession unless I have income from another source.

C. Like Prospecting, we have the same problem of it requiring 5 herbs and only being specific to one additional person. Except we have an even bigger problem. I believe herbs cap at 3. So either we just don't offer it for herbalism, or you have to open up the herb rolls to the group. Which, again, destroys the purpose of the profession.

D. Why would you want the pigments instead? They sell super slowly. And the glyphs aren't expensive to begin with.

So, when it comes down to it, if we open up the group-loot option on Milling and Prospecting, we'd still get a huge imbalance in favor of Enchanting. Enchanting doesn't rely on a second profession to produce mats like the others do. Furthermore, they DO regularly get mats for the sub skill where the others do not. Unlike Prospecting, they are the sole source for the mats. Unlike both, they only take one item to use. Unlike Milling, they produce items that are expensive and fast selling.

Really, enchanting was very imbalanced. And it still is, just not as badly as before.

Look at it like this:

Before now, I could get gems in a variety of ways not using players, and just pay the JC to cut it. I can buy them with emblems, with honor buy an Icy Prism CD, or get some from Obyxia. And that's just if I DIDN'T have mining.

With Inscription, I couldn't get Pigments on my own, no. But because it wasn't a huge profit and time difference to mill, it wasn't hard (if you wanted to) to bring them the herbs and have them mill it for mats (usually keeping the remainder). Because none of the items were BoP, and the profit margin was lower to begin with.

Enchanters, on the other hand, used mats that were only obtainable from the AH or from Purple items you could trade them for in a short window of time. This meant that you needed to receive the item whilst with one in your group, and have them be willing to DE it. You couldn't buy the raw materials and have them DE it.

Well, you could, but it was ludicrously more expensive to do so (the price of BoE purples is generally astronomical compared to an Abyss Crystal. And they are few in number).

That meant that Enchanters *completely* owned the mat market, which wasn't the case with the other two.
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#53 Jan 07 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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My query was not so much with respect to the economy, but with respect to the time an enchanter has spent working on their craft and being able to disenchant high-level items. Why should they be forced to offer their services for free? Why not give them the option to turn off the automatic option in their dungeon runs?

Also, why isn't the option there even without an enchanter in the group? If the idea was really to balance out the economy with respect to enchanting mats, why not provide the option all the time? Enabling the option only when you have an enchanter there to show them just what kind of business they could have been doing seems a little cruel.

It's not like folks can't roll their own enchanter. Of course, most people don't like the process involved in leveling enchanting skill. Seems a little unfair for Blizz to say, "thanks for leveling your skill. We're now going to give part of it to everyone else for free."

Important note: I'm not an enchanter and never want to be :)

Cheers,
Jorge
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#54 Jan 07 2010 at 2:19 PM Rating: Decent
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My query was not so much with respect to the economy, but with respect to the time an enchanter has spent working on their craft and being able to disenchant high-level items. Why should they be forced to offer their services for free? Why not give them the option to turn off the automatic option in their dungeon runs?


It's pointless to ask the question and then limit the response. The problems with enchanting weren't so direct as "we are doing x to solve y." It is more like "We are doing x, and will later do y and z, in order to fix a, b, c and d." It's the same thing as arguing against a class nerf by saying it will lower your DpS. That's all well and good, but you need to take everything into account to evaluate a change.

[EDIT] And, as to disabling it, then you aren't solving the problem. Enchanters had 100% domination over the mat market before 3.3. That was not the case with any other profession. Or, if it was, the market was designed so as to be low profit at best, and only of interest to those with the profession. [/EDIT]

Quote:
Also, why isn't the option there even without an enchanter in the group? If the idea was really to balance out the economy with respect to enchanting mats, why not provide the option all the time? Enabling the option only when you have an enchanter there to show them just what kind of business they could have been doing seems a little cruel.


Because that would be WAY too imbalanced. The problem wasn't that enchanters had an upper hand in the mat market--that was fine. Just like skinners, herbalists, JCs, etc. have an upper hand in their markets (only exceptions I can think of are Frost Lotus, Arctic Furs and pigments, but those are generally much smaller percentages of profit).

The point is to make mats available outside of enchanting, so that non-enchanters aren't completely ruled by them. It isn't to completely make the sub-skill useless within groups.

Quote:
It's not like folks can't roll their own enchanter. Of course, most people don't like the process involved in leveling enchanting skill. Seems a little unfair for Blizz to say, "thanks for leveling your skill. We're now going to give part of it to everyone else for free."

Important note: I'm not an enchanter and never want to be :)

Cheers,
Jorge


A. "It's not like..." is the same argument used against giving certain skills to other classes, like Mortal Strike and such. Sometimes, balance requires something not be 100% unique. It's a fact we have to live with.

B. Not wanting to level enchanting is irrelevant. I'd bet there are more enchanters than BSs.

C. No, it isn't. Blizzard never said "You will always have 100% access to this subskill." They aren't giving away what defines the class. Players chose to focus on DEing at the expense of selling enchants. That's their problem. The skill has alaways been called "Enchanting." And there's a reason DE has a low skill-up cap. If you only want one small portion of the whole, you have to accept that there's a chance that portion may not always be unique.

They didn't REMOVE it. Enchanters are still the only ones that can DE outside of groups. It is fairly unique still. They just made it so that things weren't so skewed. The only other options were to add enchanting mats to vendor lists and possibly loot tables. And enchanters probably would have been more pissed about that, because then MORE would have entered the market, and they would be readily available.

And, for comparison's sake:

"Thanks for leveling your skill. We're now going to give part of it to everyone else for free."
"Thanks for leveling your hunter. We're now going to give pets to Mages, Priests, Death Knights, Shaman and Druids."

But the fact remains that Hunter pets are superior to Death Knight ones. We just both have some kind of access to them.

Edited, Jan 7th 2010 3:27pm by idiggory
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#55 Jan 07 2010 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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I've said it before, I believe in this very thread, but I don't even herb in dungeons. If someone in my party - explicitly there to help me accomplish my goals - wants to do it, I'd /gladly/ "loan" them my herbalism skill.


This.

I don't care enough to slow down the run to go herb something that is readily available in Northrend that I can farm on my own time. As a tank, I don't really want to make the group twiddle its collective thumbs, or go through the hassle of "anyone else herb?" "wanna roll for it?" etc. It's just not worth the effort.

As for enchanting. BFD. There's just so many ways to accumulate gold in Wrath, that losing a few mats here and there in a dungeon really isn't worth all the debate it seems to generate.

#56 Jan 08 2010 at 2:25 AM Rating: Good
FuriousJorge wrote:
My query was not so much with respect to the economy, but with respect to the time an enchanter has spent working on their craft and being able to disenchant high-level items. Why should they be forced to offer their services for free? Why not give them the option to turn off the automatic option in their dungeon runs?


When Disenchanting becomes a skill that requires effort to level on its own and independently of Enchanting, you might have an argument.

Quote:
Also, why isn't the option there even without an enchanter in the group? If the idea was really to balance out the economy with respect to enchanting mats, why not provide the option all the time? Enabling the option only when you have an enchanter there to show them just what kind of business they could have been doing seems a little cruel.


The idea isn't to balance the economy with respect to mats. The idea is to reduce the risk of someone volunteering to D/E everything and then dropping group at the end of the run with bags full of materials.

Quote:
It's not like folks can't roll their own enchanter. Of course, most people don't like the process involved in leveling enchanting skill. Seems a little unfair for Blizz to say, "thanks for leveling your skill. We're now going to give part of it to everyone else for free."


They were already doing that in dungeon runs for as long as I've been playing the game. The only thing that has changed is that now it's more convenient and enchanters don't have the option to be greedy little dorks and refuse to D/E under some naive assumption that their refusal would help preserve their market.
#57 Jan 08 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:

They were already doing that in dungeon runs for as long as I've been playing the game. The only thing that has changed is that now it's more convenient and enchanters don't have the option to be greedy little dorks and refuse to D/E under some naive assumption that their refusal would help preserve their market.


Look what happened within just 1-2 weeks of non-enchanters getting too many free materials...they flooded the AH and drove prices into the ground, where they have stayed since 3.3 hit. I'm getting used to the 1.6g dust and adjusting my prices on scrolls to fit those new prices (they should hold steady), but it goes to prove when us enchanters monopolized the market we held a good price on mats. When PUGs got their hands on the market they crashed it into the ground immediately.

FWIW some JC's are still grumpy over epic gems for 10k honor, epic gems for 10/20 badges a piece, and other sources like transmutes. I am sure if JC's could have monopolized the uncut epic gem market, we'd be paying 350+ per gem, not the 140g that is common now.
#58 Jan 08 2010 at 6:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Look what happened within just 1-2 weeks of non-enchanters getting too many free materials...they flooded the AH and drove prices into the ground, where they have stayed since 3.3 hit. I'm getting used to the 1.6g dust and adjusting my prices on scrolls to fit those new prices (they should hold steady), but it goes to prove when us enchanters monopolized the market we held a good price on mats. When PUGs got their hands on the market they crashed it into the ground immediately.


Possibly on some servers, but the prices have barely dropped on my server. Less than 20% for all of them. And the market still fluctuated PLENTY when only enchanters could create the mats.

"Crashed into the ground" is a vast exaggeration. If that's the case on your server, it is by far not the norm. Because demand for mats was high enough that the increased number entering the market barely changed the price. Excessive drops in price just mean you run with tons of idiots, or PvE above heroics is nearly nonexistant on your server.

But, regardless, a drop in profit for Enchanters is really irrelevant. You were the outlier in craft balance and needed to be reigned in. And, guess what, you still have one of the higher profit potentials of all the crafts post 3.3.

Working as intended.
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#59 Jan 08 2010 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory wrote:
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Look what happened within just 1-2 weeks of non-enchanters getting too many free materials...they flooded the AH and drove prices into the ground, where they have stayed since 3.3 hit. I'm getting used to the 1.6g dust and adjusting my prices on scrolls to fit those new prices (they should hold steady), but it goes to prove when us enchanters monopolized the market we held a good price on mats. When PUGs got their hands on the market they crashed it into the ground immediately.


Possibly on some servers, but the prices have barely dropped on my server. Less than 20% for all of them. And the market still fluctuated PLENTY when only enchanters could create the mats.

"Crashed into the ground" is a vast exaggeration. If that's the case on your server, it is by far not the norm. Because demand for mats was high enough that the increased number entering the market barely changed the price. Excessive drops in price just mean you run with tons of idiots, or PvE above heroics is nearly nonexistant on your server.

But, regardless, a drop in profit for Enchanters is really irrelevant. You were the outlier in craft balance and needed to be reigned in. And, guess what, you still have one of the higher profit potentials of all the crafts post 3.3.

Working as intended.


It's not a vast exaggeration on the 2 servers I play on. Infinite dust was 4g a piece and fairly steady 6+ months until 3.3 came around. Now they are down to 1-1.5g. That is a market crash.

Now on the other hand, claiming enchanting still has one of the highest profit potentials, THAT is a vast exaggeration. Where do these profits come from? Is it the measly tips enchanters will have to work for? Because people won't be buying scrolls on the AH anymore. Not when 6 heroics and a disenchanter gets them enough materials to cover any enchant they need on their upgrades. They won't pay for scrolls when they have their own mats. Trust me I know, because I have every scroll in WoTLK up on the AH right now and they sell extremely slowly. The profit margins are razor thin and you still don't see sales. The business is terrible, I'm > < that close to dropping enchanting for something that actually makes money.
#60 Jan 08 2010 at 8:06 PM Rating: Good
mikelolol wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:

They were already doing that in dungeon runs for as long as I've been playing the game. The only thing that has changed is that now it's more convenient and enchanters don't have the option to be greedy little dorks and refuse to D/E under some naive assumption that their refusal would help preserve their market.


Look what happened within just 1-2 weeks of non-enchanters getting too many free materials...they flooded the AH and drove prices into the ground, where they have stayed since 3.3 hit. I'm getting used to the 1.6g dust and adjusting my prices on scrolls to fit those new prices (they should hold steady), but it goes to prove when us enchanters monopolized the market we held a good price on mats. When PUGs got their hands on the market they crashed it into the ground immediately.

FWIW some JC's are still grumpy over epic gems for 10k honor, epic gems for 10/20 badges a piece, and other sources like transmutes. I am sure if JC's could have monopolized the uncut epic gem market, we'd be paying 350+ per gem, not the 140g that is common now.


How much of the extra mats on the market are as the result of people spamming heroics in vast numbers? My first WoW character was an enchanter. My first level capped character in TBC was that character. I've never vendored a BoE green. If it wasn't your average Joe flooding the market with mats gained from a D/E roll in a dungeon, it would be enchanters themselves undercutting the hell out of one another just to move their product.
#61 Jan 09 2010 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
Personally, I think that the DE option, and subsequent drop in prices for materials, is a good thing. A lot of people I know used to hold off getting gear enchanted because it was too expensive. Now, people are more willing to enchant gear even if it's not the item they think will be a long-term piece. Besides, it's the same as any market - when you can keep a stranglehold on goods or services, you can charge out the ass for a given item. When competition comes in, the prices drop and demand usually increases due to the lower costs. Now dust may cost 2G instead of 6G- but instead of selling 4 stacks a week, you might be able to sell 15 stacks. It's all relative.

It makes me think of a lot of markets in Bermuda. When we had one telephone company, international calls were $1.50 per minute. When we got in a competitor, it dropped below $1.00. The same goes with the airlines here. Locations that have several airlines flying to them are much cheaper than those that have one or two planes flying there. Air Canada charges up to $1,000 for a nonstop flight to Toronto (round trip). With the announcement of a competitor coming in in April, they've dropped the price of flights to $500. British airways charged up to $1,500 for a round-trip flight to London. When competition came in, it halved its ticket prices. It may have taken some profit away, but it hardly bankrupted them.

Competition keeps artifically-inflated prices to a minimum while providing better incentives for consumers to spend their money. And in the end that's good for everyone.
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#62 Jan 09 2010 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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That's a side of it I didn't even think of Wondrous... I'm the type that buys epic gems and the best enchants as soon as I get a new piece, so the players that are now buying enchants that wouldn't before didn't even enter my mind.

I don't think this is happening on my server, since enchant prices have gone up, not down, and shouts in trade are virtually non-existant unless the prices on the AH are actually ludicrous (Blade Ward shout the other day, and I checked the AH. 1 up for over 1K. LOL no). So I imagine people aren't really getting them on my server, because they are cheaper.

But I'm sure this is a change on SOME servers.

Enchanters on my realm must be smart. Knowing that they are the only ones that can control the enchant market, they rarely do anything just for tips. And it seems the prices they charge in addition to your mats tend to keep people using the AH unless they absolutely need it for that night's progression run. Enchanters stay rich, but there are more options available at least.

It's the enchanters that are willing to whore themselves out that are at risk of ruining markets. Because, in the end, players are going to be buying the goods within acceptable limits if they have to.
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#63 Jan 11 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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They needed to make the enchanting change in 3.3 because you cannot trade anything within the instance that didn't drop in that instance. IE you could not collect all the blues, shard them, then give them out, because you CANNOT trade trade goods in an instance. Blizzard basically looked at what was common practice for enchanters and came up with a way that people would still somewhat be able to continue with their normal activities.

If you are really mad at this, just talk with all the enchanters in your battle group and have them all need everything. If you got them to do this, no one could use the de option and life would be better for enchanters because then they would have an excuse not to trade the shards back to people at the end. But I know if I saw someone needing on everything, even greens, my vote to kick option would be coming up fast.
#64 Jan 11 2010 at 11:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Also, why do you think that this is only because 3.3 and how they handle disenchanting? I would put money that the major reason the enchanting market has gone down is because more people are running more instances. Before 3.3 I might hit one or two instances a week per toon, and that depended on what the random daily was. Now I will hit one a day per toon. That is 2-3 times more runs. My stockpile of dusts and essences have gone up and not because of the de change, I have a chanter I send all my boe's to, but because I run more instances.

If you look at the total instances run the weeks before 3.3, and the weeks after 3.3, I would bet they have at least doubled. And this would at least double the amount of enchanting mats available. In all, with other enchanters in the group, all this has done for me is save on mailing. I now get to mail stacks of dust and essence to my enchanter, not the 4+ items that the stack was made from.
#65 Jan 11 2010 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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All the enchanters on my server are now charging a flat rate for doing enchnts now. If you have the mats and need an enchant it is no longer a choice to tip (there probably are some still doing it for tips but I haven't seen any in a while)it is now a set fee. So in trade you will see the following..

"Enchanter LFW (book link here) 50g (50g is the most common but I have seen 75g ad even 100g) to enchant anything YOUR mats."

Even when you do a shout out in trade channel as someone looking for said enchant, the enchanter won't click the trade button without first seeing you put up the fee in the window.

As an enchanter I will never do this because I don't really care. There is a lot of butthurt individuals in the enchanting profession on Trollbane and they seem to be banding together.

This change to DE in groups in 3.3 has changed enchanting dramatically on my server. People with Bladeward are charging outrageous prices because:

a) not everyone has the chant
b) they are pissed about the change in 3.3 and want to get back at the wow player base
c) they can

That about sums it up. I have Bladeward and have never charged anyone extra for the chant to this day...

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#66 Jan 14 2010 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Enchanting is NOT 2 profesions in one. It is one crafting profession, just like all the others.

Gathering Professions - These professions create/gather items from special nodes. Only people with the specific profession can gather from those nodes. They are basically creating the items at the time of gathering for zero cost, other that time it takes to gather. Miners gather from mine nodes, Herbalists gather from herb nodes, Skinners gather from dead animals that are considered nodes.

Crafting professions - Transform items into other items. A blacksmith turns bars into armor/weapons. Alchemists turn herbs in flasks/potions. Scribes turn herbs into inks then into Glyphs. Basically crafting profession take items of intrinsic value and transform them into other items. at the basic level.

Does an enchanter gather? No. The don't have special access to greens, blues, or purples that other non-enchanters can't get. Random loot drops happens to everyone no matter thier profession. They transform green, blues, purples into enchanting mats. Same way a JC transforms ore into gems or scribes transfor herbs into inks.

Is enchanting a crafting profession? Yes! No one would argue that they transform items(mats) into other items (enchants/scrolls). The problem comes in when they need to do the first step, creating mats. Are these mats free to the enchanter? NO! The enchanting mats are TRANSFORMED from greens, blues, purples that have an instrinsic value. Very similiar to transforming inks/gems.
Just because there is no gathering profession closely tied to enchanting doesn't make it 2 professions in 1. Just like tailoring, enchanting does not need a gathering profesion to produce their mats. They are both forced to have antoher profession create mats or buy the mats from the AH. Tailors need dusts to make high level clothes and enchanter need greens or better items to transform in needed mats. Smart enchanters use a 2nd crafting profession to make their own green, blues, purples, usually tailoring (see the dust tie in?)
#67 Jan 14 2010 at 5:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Nekar, no offense, but everything you wrote has been addressed earlier in this thread. It isn't really worth repeating.

But...

Quote:
Does an enchanter gather? No. The don't have special access to greens, blues, or purples that other non-enchanters can't get. Random loot drops happens to everyone no matter thier profession. They transform green, blues, purples into enchanting mats. Same way a JC transforms ore into gems or scribes transfor herbs into inks.


Please see the post just up a few where I specifically compare DE to Prospecting and Milling, showing the differences. It is not the same at all. Gems are readably available to any player, and pigments are used only by their own profession (and have a low base-cost due to availability of the mat off the AH). Enchanting mats are used by a variety of professions, and are impossible to obtain without an enchanter. And, unlike prospecting and milling, I can't buy the original mat and pay the crafter to break it down. Well, I could, but not for the mat that really matters (Abyss Crystals), unless I was going to pay a LOT more than their worth.

And, while one option was to add Abyss Crystals to the emblem vendor loot table, that wouldn't solve the problem created by cross-server gaming. Then they'd just force players to use the AH or the vendor--they could no longer do the group DE thing (which many enchanters liked, too, since it almost guaranteed them an Abyss).

DE is VERY different than Prospecting, and different from milling in that it requires only one item (that is obtainable by anyone easily), and results in an item that is useful to more than one profession, and is basically required to gear anyone at 80. And, like I said, you could obtain the raw mats for pigments a Scribe would need to create your glyph. You couldn't do that to get your Berserking enchant.
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