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Disenchant option 3.3 a bad thing for enchanters?Follow

#1 Dec 10 2009 at 1:29 PM Rating: Default
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So here I go, I guess some people will call me greedy or what not, but I have a problem with the new disenchant option. Disenchating is how enchanters make 90% of their gold. 100% on my enchanter toons.

So along comes this new feature in groups, roll for DE. That's very nice and dandy if you are not an enchanter, but it really does suck for enchanters. Not like we can go around looking for items to be farmed.

Do enchanters have a daily? No.
Do they have a transmute? No.
Can they farm matts? No. <---------- Some might argue we should use Auctioneer, a valid point (though I don't need an addon for my other proffesions), but seeing as everyone's getting all their greens disenchanted anyhow I can't see it being an option these days either.

**** there isn't even any new enchants for at least a part of the population to make some gold.

In essence, I feel this is the worst turn of events for enchanters possible. Am I missing the point somehow?
#2 Dec 10 2009 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't mind as much if it was BoP only gear that had the disenchant option, but green BoE stuff shouldn't.

It simply gives everyone the craft now, and makes dust/essences ridiculously easy to get. Not to mention that if your server happens to have a low population of enchanters, the new LFG system will still kill your profits, as its across realms.
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#3 Dec 10 2009 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I think this topic deserved another thread.

But fine, dead horse or not, I'll give my 2c.

Quote:

Do enchanters have a daily? No.


I'll use JC as an example. It takes anywhere from 2-5G or so (more on other servers to complete the quest), if you purchase mats. On top of that, you have to go out and get the item, which sometimes involves flying quite far out of your way. That's 10-20 minutes for 5-7G. Hardly something you consider profitable. I can get more than that killing trash mobs below Dalaran for 5 minutes.

Quote:
Do they have a transmute? No.


A. Not all transmutes are profitable. Some are more for convenience.
B. Not every profession needs one, nor should they all have one. It is part of how a certain profession makes their money. Enchanters can make good gold with scrolls. Why you aren't, I don't know. They sell very well on my server, for a good deal more than their mat prices.

Quote:
Can they farm matts? No. <---------- Some might argue we should use Auctioneer, a valid point (though I don't need an addon for my other proffesions), but seeing as everyone's getting all their greens disenchanted anyhow I can't see it being an option these days either.


This is where you are going to get a LOT of heat from other posters, and is one of the biggest reasons some people oppose your idea.

Why?

Because Enchanting is the only profession with a built-in gathering profession. I need mats for JC? I have to go out and look for nodes. I can't run a dungeon for a chance for some Saronite. Furthermore, I now have two professions for the purposes of using one of them.

Enchanters, on the other hand, are free to take a second. Tailoring works well as a stand-alone AND gathering profession (turn Frost Weave drops into items you DE). With the two, you can make a lot of cash and fast.

Furthermore, I'm gonna call BS on this reason for you. Why? Because you just told us that you make 90-100% of your money through DE. The profession is called ENCHANTING not DISENCHANTING. Don't ***** about not having a way to farm mats when you are just selling the mats you get anyway. So sorry others have access to them now.

Quote:

**** there isn't even any new enchants for at least a part of the population to make some gold.

In essence, I feel this is the worst turn of events for enchanters possible. Am I missing the point somehow?


How about the fact that thousands of players on your realm are now actively upgrading gear? How about the fact that some of them are going to be shelling out for better enchants, because this tier is noticeably harder than ToC? How about the fact that only people in groups with Enchanters can do it in the first place (and I've only had the option twice, in about 7-10 groups), so it isn't a huge problem anyway.

Plus, I think there was a huge problem with enchanting and mats in the first place. All other professions needed to take a second to be self-sufficient, which meant that there was always a way to make good money farming and selling mats at the expense of your production ability.

Enchanting, on the other hand, had complete control over those mats (which ARE used by other crafts, too). It wasn't like how you could level skinning and herbalism to sell to other crafters, sacrificing the recipes those crafts made available. They also were free to take a second profession, which (as I said above) could make it far more profitable. And it wasn't difficult, either, if you chose tailoring. Unlike a JC who wanted to level BSing, you didn't HAVE to pay thousands of gold to level it to cap. You were free to go out and get the materials.

Sorry, but it isn't a problem. Mat prices may or may not go down. And I'm not convinced it's a bad thing if they do.
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#4LGarth, Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 2:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Classy comment by you btw.
#5 Dec 10 2009 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Really? Awesome! I can sell them my enchanting matts! Oh wait ... everyone who was in a group with an enchanter can too! A-A-A-M-A-Z-I-N-G!

Not trying to be mean, but I fail to see how an enchanter gets his profits these days.


I dunno, by selling ENCHANTS.
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#6 Dec 10 2009 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
idiggory wrote:
Quote:

Really? Awesome! I can sell them my enchanting matts! Oh wait ... everyone who was in a group with an enchanter can too! A-A-A-M-A-Z-I-N-G!

Not trying to be mean, but I fail to see how an enchanter gets his profits these days.


I dunno, by selling ENCHANTS.


qft.

Every big enchanter spams trade with it

"Your mats, free..tips welcome! My pats, [insert price]"

You get to pick the price.


I like the feature. It means I don't have to pay you, the Disenchanter, your AH price for mats for me to get my Enchants.
And all that gear I win doesn't just get vendored for repair gold.
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#7 Dec 10 2009 at 5:05 PM Rating: Decent
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at first i thought that all the DE on green rolls would be ground breaking price breaker....but its not really. Before the change, no matter what the toon i was on, i would roll on the green, hopefully win, and then mail it to my enchanter to be DE'd. now i just mail the mats not the greens.

for the BoP shards, i can see more of a flux in pricing. smaller flux on BoE since they we mostly already getting DE'd
#8 Dec 10 2009 at 5:34 PM Rating: Default
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So, in essence, it seems from the opinions on this thread that the disenchant option is a bad thing for enchanters and good for non-enchanters.

Oh, and Iddigory, grow a pair. Going personal over a question is pure garbage.
#9 Dec 10 2009 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So, in essence, it seems from the opinions on this thread that the disenchant option is a bad thing for enchanters and good for non-enchanters.

Oh, and Iddigory, grow a pair. Going personal over a question is pure garbage.


No, we think it's balance. And your OP was stupid (and I don't even mean that to be offensive).

It isn't our or Blizz's fault if you can't use your profession to make cash (especially when it is fairly profitable without sellling mats).

And I'm not quite sure how I made this PERSONAL? By recommending you USE your profession, rather than just a sub-part of it? By responding to a post that's already been actively discussed in a post not far down this page?

By pointing out the myriad ways you weren't even examining the change and the system?

You came in here butthurt because your easy cash system wasn't as good now (though the prices on my server haven't even changed much). So sorry I wasn't sweet and vehemently cursing Blizzard for a fair change.
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#10 Dec 10 2009 at 11:49 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
I think this topic deserved another thread.

But fine, dead horse or not, I'll give my 2c.


It isn't a dead horse topic at all. The other topic was discussing what we thought would happen when the system went live, and now its actually gone live. To re-start a topic that is already 40ish posts in was much more inappropriate than starting another one.

And really, if you don't like repeating yourself, just don't?

Quote:

I'll use JC as an example. It takes anywhere from 2-5G or so (more on other servers to complete the quest), if you purchase mats. On top of that, you have to go out and get the item, which sometimes involves flying quite far out of your way. That's 10-20 minutes for 5-7G. Hardly something you consider profitable. I can get more than that killing trash mobs below Dalaran for 5 minutes.


You conveniently forgot the price of dragon's eye there Cheech. Its 100G+ for 10 minutes of work, and was still more when WoTLK came out.

Quote:


A. Not all transmutes are profitable. Some are more for convenience.
B. Not every profession needs one, nor should they all have one. It is part of how a certain profession makes their money. Enchanters can make good gold with scrolls. Why you aren't, I don't know. They sell very well on my server, for a good deal more than their mat prices.


A. Of course, the OP mentioned transmutes because he's really not discussing how much more difficult it will be to make gold with 3.3. He was really talking about transmuting for convenience.

Quote:

This is where you are going to get a LOT of heat from other posters, and is one of the biggest reasons some people oppose your idea.

Why?

Because Enchanting is the only profession with a built-in gathering profession. I need mats for JC? I have to go out and look for nodes. I can't run a dungeon for a chance for some Saronite. Furthermore, I now have two professions for the purposes of using one of them.

Enchanters, on the other hand, are free to take a second. Tailoring works well as a stand-alone AND gathering profession (turn Frost Weave drops into items you DE). With the two, you can make a lot of cash and fast.

Furthermore, I'm gonna call BS on this reason for you. Why? Because you just told us that you make 90-100% of your money through DE. The profession is called ENCHANTING not DISENCHANTING. Don't ***** about not having a way to farm mats when you are just selling the mats you get anyway. So sorry others have access to them now.


Tailors can gather for themselves. Its not unique, but they can gather without a secondary profession. Also, its not like you can farm for mats with Enchanting any faster than you could as a non-enchanter, barring quest rewards and gear upgrades.

Quote:

How about the fact that thousands of players on your realm are now actively upgrading gear? How about the fact that some of them are going to be shelling out for better enchants, because this tier is noticeably harder than ToC? How about the fact that only people in groups with Enchanters can do it in the first place (and I've only had the option twice, in about 7-10 groups), so it isn't a huge problem anyway.

Plus, I think there was a huge problem with enchanting and mats in the first place. All other professions needed to take a second to be self-sufficient, which meant that there was always a way to make good money farming and selling mats at the expense of your production ability.

Enchanting, on the other hand, had complete control over those mats (which ARE used by other crafts, too). It wasn't like how you could level skinning and herbalism to sell to other crafters, sacrificing the recipes those crafts made available. They also were free to take a second profession, which (as I said above) could make it far more profitable. And it wasn't difficult, either, if you chose tailoring. Unlike a JC who wanted to level BSing, you didn't HAVE to pay thousands of gold to level it to cap. You were free to go out and get the materials.


The cost to level enchanting is pretty high compared to some other crafts (like alchemy). You act as if greens are free to everyone and are worthless by themselves. Many fetch a pretty penny in the AH, and vendor costs must be considered as opportunity costs as well. Opportunity costs must be considered when leveling the craft. Just because I gathered the dust myself doesn't mean its free. If I use 3k gold worth of dust to level the craft and only receive 1k gold for the enchants I've made, then leveling the craft cost me 2k gold. For a guy who calls the OP stupid, you'd think basic economics wouldn't be that difficult to grasp. I guess your post was just a retarded rant. (and I don't even mean that to be offensive).

The only items a DEer gets to DE over others are quest rewards and gear upgrades, which aren't really the topic of the OP. Nor is the gold from it incredibly substantial when factoring in opportunity costs.
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#11 Dec 11 2009 at 1:04 AM Rating: Default
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That's precisely my point Baveux.

Quote:
And your OP was stupid (and I don't even mean that to be offensive).
This is so funny I won't even consider it offensive. It's like telling someone they suck, just don't take it personal. Hahaha. Grow up (not offensive!)

Enchanting has so far been a profitable profession, but it's going to be a far less profitable one now. On the next level grind, it will again prove a good profession as de quest greens should still yield a higher profit over vendoring them.

Enchating matt prices have remained rather flat on my server despite ICC, which does validate my point to a certain extent, contrary to what happenned in 3.1 and 3.2.
#12 Dec 11 2009 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

You conveniently forgot the price of dragon's eye there Cheech. Its 100G+ for 10 minutes of work, and was still more when WoTLK came out.


I didn't leave anything out. Most JC will be using their tokens for recipes, and only buying DEs when they need them for themselves or no longer need anymoe. That's a huge time investment (even if you aren't getting them all).

And I tried selling one once to test how it would work. I had to post it 3 times before it sold, and mine was the cheapest I ever saw up. Don't remember if there was a deposit cost on it, but 100G in 7 days isn't anything to brag about.

And, again, it meant getting recipes slower.

Quote:

A. Of course, the OP mentioned transmutes because he's really not discussing how much more difficult it will be to make gold with 3.3. He was really talking about transmuting for convenience.


I say bull. His whole OP was about how this change was a huge blow to his bank account. Daily and mats are both relevant to money-making. If he was arguing that they should get one for convenience (because being able to make enchants for all 8 of your own slots isn't food enough) than he didn't bother to make that point.

Quote:

Tailors can gather for themselves. Its not unique, but they can gather without a secondary profession. Also, its not like you can farm for mats with Enchanting any faster than you could as a non-enchanter, barring quest rewards and gear upgrades.


Tailors gather cloth, which is an item that is still usable by every other class through the first-aid skill. Furthermore, this isn't relevent. Because EVERYONE can gather and sell cloth.

The point is that Enchanters get exclusive rights to their mats, when no other craft does. And they still need the enchanting ones for many of their recipes. If I'm a JC, I need to take mining or buy from a miner to prospect/make jewelry. That's the closest we get, but getting epic gems from other sources (that anyone can use) is cheaper, anyway. Rare gems we have a slight advantage on from our daily CD, but that's still random--you can end up with 15 G from a 40G investement, easily.

Enchanters get their "gathering" skill built in, and no other profession does. They all have to work with the economy. Enchanters got to control theirs for a long time (mat/enchant prices dropping was the fault of enchanters, no one else). Now, they have to engage the economy, like everyone else. They don't get to run a heroic, sell the mats, and get them traded back to make an item +tip anymore. A player actually has more options.

This makes it more equal with other professions. Still not perfect, but the only real option if they aren't going to make DE a separate sub-skill (which they, realistically, should).

Quote:

The cost to level enchanting is pretty high compared to some other crafts (like alchemy). You act as if greens are free to everyone and are worthless by themselves. Many fetch a pretty penny in the AH, and vendor costs must be considered as opportunity costs as well. Opportunity costs must be considered when leveling the craft. Just because I gathered the dust myself doesn't mean its free. If I use 3k gold worth of dust to level the craft and only receive 1k gold for the enchants I've made, then leveling the craft cost me 2k gold. For a guy who calls the OP stupid, you'd think basic economics wouldn't be that difficult to grasp. I guess your post was just a retarded rant. (and I don't even mean that to be offensive).

The only items a DEer gets to DE over others are quest rewards and gear upgrades, which aren't really the topic of the OP. Nor is the gold from it incredibly substantial when factoring in opportunity costs.


The cost is way lower if you compare them to most crafts without the relevant gathering profession (which you HAVE to do if you want to compare them without bias). JC? Have fun when your only way to level up requires Titanium, high-level gems, and Frozen Orbs (not to mention the atrocious treck up). Same with most others. Mats are VERY expensive on the AH when you need a lot, and there is no way to get them without the gathering skill.

Enchanting has their skill built in. And it is VERY cheap to level if you aren't an idiot. Bid, don't buyout, unless the BO is low. You can easily get mats that will bring you up to the top tiers cheaply (and you'll probably make money from leftovers). Plus, you can make some scrolls now, to sell on the AH. They won't be awesome money, no, but it's better than most other professions (minus Inscription) can do while leveling. Especially if you can get something like +4 stats to chest, which sells for 200+G on my server.

Furthermore, every greed roll you won in an instance up till now was high profit or mats for you. For me, that was some vendor gold to cover repairs. I didn't get JC mats, either.

The enchanter could turn a 10G vendor item into a 40G abyss crystal. Were you GUARANTEED it? No, but you could. And the DE option was born of enchanters taking advantage of groups in order to increase their odds for mats. 4 epic drops, top 4 rolls get an abyss crystal? Much better odds to get yourself one when no one could get two epics.

This change is completely fair. If anything, it is a chance for enchanters to increase their profit margins.

A. Stop offering your services for optional tips. If you forced players to buy off AH, they would.
B. Stop dropping enchant prices. It's hard to get them back up due to tipping (this goes with any profession).

Simple. The crafters are to blame for their own lower prices.
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#13 Dec 11 2009 at 3:33 AM Rating: Good
Quote:

Do enchanters have a daily? No.
Do they have a transmute? No.
Can they farm matts? No


Do you have a massive supply of people wanting enchants on their new shinies? YES.

Tuesday evening your market expanded. Everybody is going to be wanting enchants for their new toys, from the casual player to the hardcore raiders.

All you can do is either roll greed or disenchant as well, hope you get lucky, or hit need, leading to the chorus of "wtf's" and the inevitable vote-kick to come. Enchants will still sell for the same price. They may get shards, but they can't enchant it themselves.
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#14 Dec 11 2009 at 6:13 AM Rating: Good
LGarth wrote:
Some might argue we should use Auctioneer, a valid point (though I don't need an addon for my other proffesions), but seeing as everyone's getting all their greens disenchanted anyhow I can't see it being an option these days either.


This is how I make all my cash. I have an AH disenchanter on both the Horde and Alliance on my server. I was concerned that the supply of greens in the AH would be decreased. I have not seen that to be the case. I'm just as busy as always. I am not seeing a decrease in my income.

I'm ok with the change. In fact, I've been disappointed that an enchanter hasn't been in the groups I've been in. I'd like to use the de option too.

Edited, Dec 11th 2009 7:23am by dadanox
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#15 Dec 11 2009 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I've run 4 LFG randoms (plus I did the 3 new heroics with guildees) so far, and most of the items rolled for have been DE'd. Now I cant say for sure if i'm the only enchanter in the group, but I haven't won one single mat from those runs yet. Because all or most of the items have been DE'd, no loot to sell either.

As an enchanter, it doesn't bother me that I haven't won anything yet, got plenty of mats in the bank, but I wonder why they added this option because it has the potential to ***** the enchanter out of mats. The good thing, at least for people looking for enchants, there's no excuse now, not to have the mats for your enchants when you want it. lol
#16 Dec 11 2009 at 10:24 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

As an enchanter, it doesn't bother me that I haven't won anything yet, got plenty of mats in the bank, but I wonder why they added this option because it has the potential to ***** the enchanter out of mats. The good thing, at least for people looking for enchants, there's no excuse now, not to have the mats for your enchants when you want it. lol


Not any more than it did before. You still aren't getting items if they win the Greed roll.

It does reduce your chance of an Abyss Crystal per run, but that's it. Everything else remains equal.
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#17 Dec 11 2009 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory wrote:
Quote:

As an enchanter, it doesn't bother me that I haven't won anything yet, got plenty of mats in the bank, but I wonder why they added this option because it has the potential to ***** the enchanter out of mats. The good thing, at least for people looking for enchants, there's no excuse now, not to have the mats for your enchants when you want it. lol


Not any more than it did before. You still aren't getting items if they win the Greed roll.

It does reduce your chance of an Abyss Crystal per run, but that's it. Everything else remains equal.

And the surplus of dust and essences from all the greens? Not happening. Because those mats were already there, whether it was from the roll winner sending them to a DE alt or from me buying them and converting them.

The enchanting market involving BoE gear is /exactly/ the same as it was before.
#18 Dec 11 2009 at 5:06 PM Rating: Excellent
Enchanters have been double dipping for ages.

Let's assume for a moment that pre-3.3, Joe Blow never had a D/E alt or friends to D/E for him. Let's pretend that for the average player without Enchanting, their only source for mats was the auction house.

Enchanter wins.

Said average player tracks down an enchanter to get their enchant done and tips.

Enchanter wins.

Let's say the player getting the enchant done is a cheap monkey and doesn't tip. Enchanter still wins. He got the gold from the mats.

There still needs to be an enchanter in the group for the D/E function to work. If there's no enchanter in the group (or there is but their skill isn't high enough to D/E the items in question), the D/E function is grayed.

The real question is whether or not this function is creating an increase in the supply of enchanting mats such that it will create a significant drop in prices, and it's too early to tell whether or not that is the case.

My sense, however, is that it's not. Enchanters whining about this feature need to get over themselves and realize they're not the only enchanters on their realm, and that people have been getting their stuff D/E'd outside of dungeons for ages.
#19 Dec 12 2009 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
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My perspective as someone who is leveling, 435, enchanting; well sort of their perspective.

For the most part I buy mats and get free enchants or just get the whole enchant for free. Before I had my own enchanter I simply sent all my DE stuff to a friend and pretty much got free enchants if he was on. If he wasn't on I would have to buy mats and pay a tip to get enchants but only did it when in a super rush.

Now that I have my own enchanter to do things it makes it easier especially the DE part. If she can't do the chant either a guildie or a friend usually can.

When that isn't an option and I am impatient, I provide mats and pay a good tip. Especially for the chants for BoA gear.

Now at the same time I am JC/LW, max both, with many epic patterns. I do not charge my friends which 95% of the time fall in to the category of people that give me my enchants at no charge if I have mats.

Read the underlined part. I predict that enchanters will just start charging more now.

I know that when my chanter hits 450 and gets fancy patterns that is what she will do. She will not do the tip if want BS, she will simply ask what chant and name a price even if they have mats. If people have an issue they can wait for their personal enchanter friend.

People are impatient. Profit from that.
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#20 Dec 12 2009 at 11:21 AM Rating: Default
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The balance has certainly shifted in my server and Abyss Crystals are selling for 30% less than they were before 3.3 hit. That's 4 days after the release of the patch prices have taken a dive.

As for changes in patterns of conduct regarding getting an enchant ... obviously some stuff has changed on the supply front so you should also expect changes in demand (all those unenchanted alts ... ) or you would think overnight enchanters of the world would unite and raise their fees, but you forget our dear friend John Nash (google it if you are not friends with him yet), which is why I doubt you'll be able to charge high fees for any enchant any time soon. In fact the ones I charge most for are the BC ones, of which I have a few.

Quote:
This change is completely fair. If anything, it is a chance for enchanters to increase their profit margins.

A. Stop offering your services for optional tips. If you forced players to buy off AH, they would.
B. Stop dropping enchant prices. It's hard to get them back up due to tipping (this goes with any profession).

Simple. The crafters are to blame for their own lower prices.


Simple, you are wrong. You have no idea about economics but, hey, keep being ignorant and call others "butthurt" the new elite wordz used in epix threads.

I've spotted a little niche market on my server, so I'm going to see if it's worth it cornering it for a bit, doubt it, but worth a try for fun.

The original point I was trying to make in the thread was not about fairness or unfairness, I was merely pointing out that half of an enchanters "trade" used to come from their monopoly on enchanting matts. The new change is of course welcome for 90% of the wow population, so it might be so that it's a good adjustment. Furthermore Blizzard has been trying to make professions equal in both their (stat) benefits and, to some extent, their gold making potential, though I'd say that at this later they have failed as most crafting professions suck at making gold.

The other big gold maker in my server, JC, is feeling the pinch a little too, for a different reason, after a crazy 3.2, funny that, so I guess we're mostly on the same boat, which is they way it should be I guess.
#21 Dec 12 2009 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Of course they took an initial dive. After everyone has been running 20 instances a day since Tuesday? But they'll come back up after people start running them less (which is already happening. It takes about 3x as long to get a group on my tank now as it did on Wednesday).

Your post was indignant about the change, and you didn't bother to consider the other side. And you are angry because you have been using what was supposed to be the minor aspect of the profession as if it was the actual one. Blizz never wanted that to happen, and this change is way fairer (realistically). Even if it means lowering the gold potential of the profession (which is higher than most others without DE, by the way--Scrolls sell VERY well on most servers).

The change is fair. Actually, I'd say it isn't QUITE fair (the enchanter still has most of the power), but it's better than nothing.

Quote:
A. Stop offering your services for optional tips. If you forced players to buy off AH, they would.
B. Stop dropping enchant prices. It's hard to get them back up due to tipping (this goes with any profession).


95% of the enchants that happen in the marketplace on my server go through the AH. Generally speaking, you make more profit if the player buys the scroll than if they tip you (or else they would have just bought the scroll). It's rare to see a player shout for an enchanter--it only really happens if the AH ran out of a popular scroll.

And the second one is just fact. To be fair, neither of these "you" comments were about YOU. They were about enchanters in general. Constantly undercutting each other causes the price to plummet, and it is very hard to raise it. Enchanters, as the only ones with access to enchants, are the ones responsible. Basic math, here. Now, is it likely you could get everyone who just keeps undercutting to stop? No. But that doesn't make statement untrue.

Plus, WoW economics is VERY different than RL economics (and it is stupid to pretend you are that much better off if you've studied it extensively, anyway. It's such an inexact science).

You're a crafting profession. Now you have to craft to make money. That's the way it should be.

DEing was never meant to be a money-maker. It was meant to supply the items you needed to make and sell an enchant. Players decided they wanted to use it a different way, contrary to what Blizz wanted. We all knew they didn't like it when they released scrolls.

You get what you paid for. Be happy you were able to ***** players out of Gold for something they needed for so long.
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#22 Dec 12 2009 at 7:09 PM Rating: Default
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Just let go Iddigory. Wow economy follows the same principle as real world economy when left to its own: supply and demand. You seem not to understand it, which is why you suggest trying to form a cartel or the such (look it up, google is your friend).

Quote:
Be happy you were able to ***** players out of Gold for something they needed for so long.


Right here, fundamental lack of understanding of it. Let me explain it to you, I think it's necessary. To be able to "*****" players, one player needs to have a firm enough hold of the market. That is, to control a large enough part of the supply (or demand, but that's not the case at all ehre) side of the market. A single player can not do that in MOST scenarios, rather sees a market, tries to make a profit out of it, usually (gross generalization) by going a little bit lower than the lowest tender for equal goods, which brings the price closer to the "fair market value" of said service or product.

You, however, suggest that somehow enchanters should modify their conduct in order to exert a higher price for their enchants, which is both, unrealistic and the very deffinition of "S·C·R·E·W·I·N·G" players. Good God, such a beautiful contradiction.

Will there be a change in the economy? One is already happenning. How will that pan out? Enchanting was THE proffesion in TBC, and has been a rather profitable one until 3.3, with current changes, I should think the supply side of matts will go down in the form of there being less enchanters due to some people switching to other, more profitable or more "exciting" proffesions.



Edited, Dec 12th 2009 8:34pm by LGarth
#23 Dec 13 2009 at 9:16 PM Rating: Excellent
idiggory wrote:
Of course they took an initial dive. After everyone has been running 20 instances a day since Tuesday? But they'll come back up after people start running them less (which is already happening. It takes about 3x as long to get a group on my tank now as it did on Wednesday).


Ya...now instead of 0.5 seconds on my pally, now it takes 1.5 seconds D: But you're right...supply of enchanting mats is up because the number of heroics being run is off the charts right now. 2 weeks ago, most people were running the daily heroic for their two EoT and that was it. Even non-raiders were mostly maxed out on EoC gear, so they took what they needed and then went and did other things.

Now you've got raiders bumping their 232 set epics to 245, non-raiders bumping their 226s to 232s, and alts upon alts upon ALTS spamming heroics for emblems just because. (Interesting slightly-related note...if you've got a level 70-79 alt and run the random WotLK dungeon, your first one every day gets you two EoT...my mage and hunter will probably have one or two T9 pieces in the bank waiting for them for when they hit 80. Talk about getting geared for heroics......)

That is the source of the supply, not the fact that enchanters don't have to hang out after the run and D/E things now.

To suggest otherwise is just ignorant. And I mean that. If there's no enchanter in the group, the enchanting materials don't just hop into peoples' bags out of nowhere. If there is an enchanter in the group, the only reason there might be extra mats coming into the economy would be from those groups getting stuff D/E'd with an enchanter in the group who would normally not D/E because he/she is a greedy douche that figures they're helping their own market by refusing to D/E thus keeping the supply artificially low.

And to those greedy douches out there, I mock you.

And if you're not a greedy douche, guess what? Nothing new is coming into the economy as a result of this feature compared to you doing it at the end of the run and handing out the goodies.

So just get over it. It's here to stay, and I love it. And when my hunter starts doing Northrend dungeons a bit more often, she'll love it too, because it's an effortless way for people in the party to get the mats I would have otherwise been happy to give them if I wasn't so lazy.

Being lazy, by the way, is still better than being a douche. Especially with this new system.
#24 Dec 15 2009 at 12:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Conversely, chanters still only need one profession to level chanting, meaning that they can easily pick up mining or herbalism or skinning to farm gold with.

Personally, as someone with a chanter toon, I'm lovin this - got a crap load of mats gathered on my other toons that I never would have gotten without this as well as saving me the time of mailing the greens back to my chanter and having to DE them.

I do agree that we got ripped as far as not having a daily and not having all that much in the way of new options for LK though - my mage just dinged 80 and I discovered just how sucky a spread of chants I really had to buff her gear with.
#25 Dec 15 2009 at 1:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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I do agree that we got ripped as far as not having a daily and not having all that much in the way of new options for LK though - my mage just dinged 80 and I discovered just how sucky a spread of chants I really had to buff her gear with.


But the fact remains that you WILL be buffing her regardless. Every single person that raids, or PvPs somewhat seriously, and the vast majority that do heroics and PvP less seriously will be buying an enchant for their cloaks, chest, bracers, hands, boots, weapons (minus DKs), and shields. These enchants need to be replaced every time you upgrade and, like gems, some will be replaced once gear makes up for them. That's 6-7 slots that every single somewhat serious player in the game will fill.

You also have a few "ranks" to offer, with cheap to expensive options.

Learning the number to place on the AH and at what price will be good. Certain enchants sell fast, other's don't. Think about what gear players upgrade most often (hint: not feet) and stock accordingly.

And, as far as stat bonuses go, enchanting isn't any worse than most others, basically, with their ring enchants.

I mean, you could be a leather worker. No one buys the lower-ilvl gear anymore, since other stuff is easily available for cheap with emblems. You basically are just selling leg armors. Same thing with tailors and BSs. You'll have some enhancement items that you can AH, but most of your stuff is extremely expensive to make and sells very, very slowly. And you need to get lucky to get the good recipes in the first place.

Yeah. Berserking may take 10 Abyss Crystals. But a Titansteel Destroyer takes 8 Titansteel bars, 800-1K, 15G, and 2 Frozen Orbs for 60G. It sells for about 1.2K, and will take forever to go. That's a **** of a lot harder to get, and way more expensive. And it is one of BS's better items, before you start needing Crusader's Orbs. You can sell the Berserking scroll for profit easily, if the server isn't inundated.

(And if you are smart, you have been. Ret Paladins grabbing Quel'Delar WILL be buying them, among other classes).

The TTSD is gonna sit in the AH for a while.
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#26 Dec 15 2009 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
LGarth wrote:
So here I go, I guess some people will call me greedy or what not, but I have a problem with the new disenchant option. Disenchating is how enchanters make 90% of their gold. 100% on my enchanter toons.

while I agree with you that this is how enchanters make gold, I'll still tell you that you are wrong. 100% wrong.

If I had to rely on drops from grouping, I'd be a very poor disenchanter. Anyone who thinks that there are more greens in dungeon drops than in the AH is delusional. Anyone who thinks "all your unwanted greens, blues, and purples belong to me" is megamaniacal and should be removed from the group post-haste.

LGarth wrote:
Not trying to be mean, but I fail to see how an enchanter gets his profits these days.

If you can't find items to disenchant at a profit other than by going into instances, you haven't been doing it right. If you don't know how to get cheap stuff from the AH, then you are stupid. I was trying to find a different, less confrontational word to describe your position, but I couldn't. "stupid" it is.

Edited, Dec 15th 2009 7:00pm by ohmikeghod
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#27 Dec 15 2009 at 9:00 PM Rating: Good
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Personally, I've never sold my mats on the AH, but then again that's due to me being part pack rat and having a main and five functioning alts.
#28 Dec 16 2009 at 6:54 AM Rating: Excellent
This is a great improvement for the customers, and a blow to the supplier's cash flow.

I would think that the point is, many more people can now get their mats from farming dungeons and heroics.

It's enough to have an enchanter in the instance with you in order to have a chance at a dust/shard/crystal instead of a BoP (or even boe greens). This might have been the same before, if your enchanter was upfront about his tradeskill and didn't mind D/Eing EVERYTHING that dropped. But that wasn't always the case.

With the abundance of new materials and new drops, there is a lot more demand for enchants, but not for enchanting mats. People who need enchants are mostly getting their mats from the huge number of runs they can now make per day. The old days of overpricing enchanting mats are gone on my server, and soon to be over on all servers, if this trend continues.
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#29 Dec 16 2009 at 9:40 PM Rating: Good
idiggory wrote:
Of course they took an initial dive. After everyone has been running 20 instances a day since Tuesday? But they'll come back up after people start running them less (which is already happening. It takes about 3x as long to get a group on my tank now as it did on Wednesday).




Actually this initial rush of upgrades is artificially preserving the price. Once people are out of the flurry of upgrades and only running the heroics for badges or maybe that one upgrade they still need, more epic gear will be DE-ed since people won't be doing upgrades, less enchants will be needed, same or only slightly less mats will be disenchanted from the random drops.

The price isn't an initial dive, the price is an artificial high. Look at JC. It's gone up quite a bit because of increased demand and not an increased supply. It's easy to see enchanting has both increased supply and demand right now, and the inflated demand isn't going to last all that long.
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#30 Dec 16 2009 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

The price isn't an initial dive, the price is an artificial high. Look at JC. It's gone up quite a bit because of increased demand and not an increased supply. It's easy to see enchanting has both increased supply and demand right now, and the inflated demand isn't going to last all that long.


That was in response to the report that their server had taken a dive.

On my server, prices have gone up a gold or two, but that's all.

But you have to remember. ICC won't be out completely until the end of January/early February.

People are going to be continuing to upgrade for months after this. A LOT of players aren't getting upgrades in the Heroics, but the raids are another story.

That means demand will remain high for the epic enchants for quite a while.
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#31 Dec 17 2009 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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I fail to see the point of the OP. Before 3.3 hit, I'd greed on BOE greenies, just like everyone else in the group. After the run I'd send my greenies to my Enchanting-alt, or to a friend who's Enchanter, who'd return the mats to me. Nothing changed there, except that, with an enchanter present, you don't have to use the mail system anymore.
As for blues or purples, nothing changed there either. Before 3.3, at the start of a run, you'd ask if there was an enchanter there. If there was, he/she would DE blues and purples, and we would all roll on the shards at the end of the run. Now we won't have to wait till the end of the run, and the Enchanter has less buttons to push.

Enchanters still have the same chance to get greenies/blues/purples, as before, when they used the "greed" button. For all intents and purposes they have the same chance at getting their mats, as before. It's not like, before 3.3, you would just hand gear over to the enchanter to keep, just because he's an enchanter...
And except for people who have nobody to send their greenies to, non-enchanters still have the same chance at getting those mats, as well. Instead of rolling Greed, they roll DE when an enchanter is present, removing the need to send those greenies to an alt, or to roll on shards after the run.

Edited, Dec 17th 2009 4:57pm by Curois

Edited, Dec 17th 2009 4:59pm by Curois
#32 Dec 17 2009 at 12:15 PM Rating: Default
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First time any of my posts has been sub-defaulted (back to default by someone who didn't think they were totally off the mark I guess)

Quote:
The price isn't an initial dive, the price is an artificial high. Look at JC. It's gone up quite a bit because of increased demand and not an increased supply. It's easy to see enchanting has both increased supply and demand right now, and the inflated demand isn't going to last all that long.


I wholeheartedly agree with this. Yes, there's still a lot of ICC left to come out, and hard modes on top of that, but on the other hand, I doubt 100% of the wow 80s population is going to see ICC. Just look at this forums, there's some great posters here who state they haven't set foot in a raid for months. The demand is high for new enchants right now, and a high percentage of that demand (which keeps prices up) comes from non-raiders, who won't be upgrading their gear in a hurry (hello t10 being very expensive for non-raiders), and alts who might get a stab at ICC every so often, but which probably have seen quite a few upgrades recently, and will do so for a wee longer. I'd imagine prices will keep going down and have the odd spike when new wings are released, but it won't be as major a spkie as what I've seen in this patch.

Quote:
LGarth wrote:
Not trying to be mean, but I fail to see how an enchanter gets his profits these days.
If you can't find items to disenchant at a profit other than by going into instances, you haven't been doing it right. If you don't know how to get cheap stuff from the AH, then you are stupid. I was trying to find a different, less confrontational word to describe your position, but I couldn't. "stupid" it is.


I did mention on the OP that yes, there's the AH, and there's addons to help you with that. It's never too late to learn to read.

Quote:
Enchanters still have the same chance to get greenies/blues/purples, as before, when they used the "greed" button. For all intents and purposes they have the same chance at getting their mats, as before. It's not like, before 3.3, you would just hand gear over to the enchanter to keep, just because he's an enchanter...
And except for people who have nobody to send their greenies to, non-enchanters still have the same chance at getting those mats, as well. Instead of rolling Greed, they roll DE when an enchanter is present, removing the need to send those greenies to an alt, or to roll on shards after the run.


Disenchantnig horribly tedious, so I've never really disenchanted greens for anyone but myself (OH MY GOD I'M GREEDY), though never have I failed to DE for someone a blue or a purple in any run I've made. Interestingly enough, 3.2 and the ability to trade BoP with the rest of the run had changed (at least on my server) the old, "Need if you do, pass if you don't, greed to DE" mantra. For the last 2 months, whenever on an enchanting toon, I'd announce at the beginning I was an enchanter and I'd be happy to DE any blues or purples people got in the run. 99% of the time, people couldn't really be bothered, thus limiting supply. This was not me, but a shift in conduct server-wide, as it was about the same on my runs with my non-enchanter toons where whoever was an enchanter would follow suit and announce their trade. Did this make matts "artificially" expensive? Well, using the term artificial in a video game might be a little far-fetched in my opinion. But anyhow, that was how things were moving along.

Quote:
This is a great improvement for the customers, and a blow to the supplier's cash flow.


This is exactly my view, which might be a good thing for many, and a bad thing for enchanters.

Quote:
Before 3.3 hit, I'd greed on BOE greenies, just like everyone else in the group. After the run I'd send my greenies to my Enchanting-alt, or to a friend who's Enchanter, who'd return the mats to me.


Yes, but the existence of greens on the AH proves not everyone does in fact bother / doesn't have, any of those two options.

This change is here to stay for the time being, and that's that. But it's still a bad change for enchanters. Funny how after being flamed for being a greedy asshat or whatnot, as I expected, nobody has actually rebated the main point. I rest my case.
#33 Dec 17 2009 at 12:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yes, but EVERY proffession will be hit by that dip. That's the point. There's no reason, with the current way the economy is acting, to assume your profits are going to take a worse dip than other crafting professions (including JC).

This isn't unique to your craft.

You just lose the incredibly OP ability to dominate two markets in virtue of having a single profession. That's something no other craft had. This change gives you less ability to control it (but you still have more than a non-enchanter).

I've almost got my Pug. I've hit DE for essentially every item that has dropped, if available. I don't have half the mats for the high end enchants yet.

You are severely overestimating the amount of mats that are:

A. Being produced by Heroics/Reg runs.

B. Actually entering the market.


Will this result in a drop in profits if you don't bother making any change to what you are doing? Duh. But if you actually USE your craft, rather than the sub-craft, I wouldn't be surprised if you ended up making more money than before.

Why?

Because increases in the price of mats has a pretty fast increase in enchant prices (they've shot up on my server).

But drops in mat prices take much longer to be reflected in the end product's price.

Add in the fact that you can now get mats cheap, to supplement what you get naturally, and still have the same ability to buy greens off the AH, as well as the increased need for enchants over the next few months, and you'll be fine.

This change doesn't hurt the smart enchanter. Will it hurt the one who has no clue how to use it? Yes. But that just makes it on par with every other craft.

And it's still superior to many, as far as profit potential goes.
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#34 Dec 17 2009 at 2:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory wrote:

Because increases in the price of mats has a pretty fast increase in enchant prices (they've shot up on my server).

But drops in mat prices take much longer to be reflected in the end product's price.

Add in the fact that you can now get mats cheap, to supplement what you get naturally, and still have the same ability to buy greens off the AH, as well as the increased need for enchants over the next few months, and you'll be fine.

This change doesn't hurt the smart enchanter. Will it hurt the one who has no clue how to use it? Yes. But that just makes it on par with every other craft.

This.

Because there's no "... Step 4: Profit" blueprint for it in mmo-champion, my server hasn't yet realized that while Berserking scrolls used to be priced at mats+10% or so, the abyss crystals now cost half what they did when the equilibrium was set.

Flip just one of those, and you'll make back the entire (tiny) dip in the dust/essence reselling market /for your entire career/.

THAT is why the OP was wrong.

Sure, demand is at a high point right now. But even at the future low point (the doldrums before cataclysm when all but the most casual raiders are geared out for the content they can handle), it will be profitable - and as much so as any other profession. You just won't be able to faceroll 120% profit margins and will have to be satisfied with 40%...
#35 Dec 17 2009 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, but the existence of greens on the AH proves not everyone does in fact bother / doesn't have, any of those two options.

This change is here to stay for the time being, and that's that. But it's still a bad change for enchanters. Funny how after being flamed for being a greedy asshat or whatnot, as I expected, nobody has actually rebated the main point. I rest my case.

It has been refuted. You just didn't understand.

This change will not increase the number of materials available on the AH. The reason being that before, any greens that dropped in dungeons (which can be automatically DE'd now) would more than likely be purchased on the AH and disenchanted. This change cuts out the middle man, but does not impact the end result. If the price is dropping for enchanting materials, it's probably because everybody is running far more dungeons per day than they did before and there's an associated increase in the number of disenchantable items dropped.

Frankly, this thread started out with you supposedly asking for opinions, and it's turned into your crusade to show that somehow this change irreparably damages your profit margins. If you can't make money after the patch, I highly doubt you were making that much beforehand.
#36 Dec 18 2009 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory wrote:

A. Stop offering your services for optional tips. If you forced players to buy off AH, they would.


I've often wondered about this. Now that we can use scrolls made by inscribers to place our enchants on scrolls, why give away enchants for a (possible) tip? Of course when enchanters themselves were the only ones who could supply mats, this made sense in a way. Perhaps that is what this change will begin forcing 'chanters to do.
#37 Dec 18 2009 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I didn't read this whole thread, but I noticed enchanting mats have dropped heavily in price since this patch. They have practically been slashed in half.

Which for the most part is good for my characters. My main enchanter has actually turned into a bank/PVP alt that I rarely play. I just mail greens to that character, disenchant, and create my own enchants on scrolls and send them to the characters I actually play. So I'm happy the price of mats has dropped, it means next time I need berserking I don't have to farm as much gold for it.

It kind of sucks for the people who used it as their primary money-maker though. But I like the change. Now I get more materials for running dungeons - it gives me some incentive to keep running heroics on my overgeared characters who don't need anything from heroics.

And I can't have too much sympathy, I have mining on 2 characters and slowly watched that go from the most profitable profession to barely worth keeping. Now I just smelt and vendor my bars, who would have thought 9 months ago that we'd be vendoring saronite today?


An enterprising young enchanter would be buying up cheap mats and scrolls, especially with so many "casuals" getting small handfuls of enchanting mats there will always be people selling a handful well below market value. Keep an eye out for those deals, create scrolls and sell. Not a big deal.
#38 Dec 18 2009 at 5:47 PM Rating: Good
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mikelolol wrote:
I didn't read this whole thread, but I noticed enchanting mats have dropped heavily in price since this patch. They have practically been slashed in half.

On my server at least, the sequence is slightly more nuanced:
- Two or three weeks before the patch, there was a hotfix to significantly bump DE of infinite dust and cosmic essence. Things were great until market saturation caused a stampede while inventories were liquidated. Prices dropped to 30%-40% of original.
- After patch day, more shards started hitting the market, leading to a slow slide in price.
- After patch day, everyone (almost literally, realm first 25-man Yogg+0 kill was last night) getting new gear and needing enchants. Dust and essences back to 50-60% of original, shards stabilizing at 50-60% of original.

I expect the rate of new gear drops will slow down but not stop completely, since so few guilds will run completely out of content before Cataclysm. Stabilization at maybe 50% of pre-patch cost across the board? Since in the good old days, I could recoup about 120% of investment either in the JC crafting pipeline, the LW crafting pipeline, or the good old "buy greens and flip the dust" method, I expect they'll all still be profitable enough to justify a few minutes a day.

Oh, also not connected to enchanting... Saronite bars are going for almost exactly 1/8 of what titanium is going for (the ratio is no coincidence, alchemists aren't stupid). This is significantly above the vendor price (last night, it was 37g a stack).

Edited, Dec 18th 2009 6:56pm by ElMuneco
#39 Dec 23 2009 at 9:46 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
For all intents and purposes they have the same chance at getting their mats, as before.


Not entirely accurate - as you noted, you could send your junk greens to a friend or alt to DE for you - those who don't have that access would sell said greens on the AH or merchant them for cash with the AH stuff serving as DE bait for chanters farming the AH.

Mind you, as I've already noted, I still like this change - due to the fast pace of the instances I don't hit DE for greens as I like to take a look at them to see if an alt needs them but it is nice not having the boss drops not have to be vendored and my chanter alt is loving all the shards he's been getting from my mage.
#40 Dec 23 2009 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Not entirely accurate - as you noted, you could send your junk greens to a friend or alt to DE for you - those who don't have that access would sell said greens on the AH or merchant them for cash with the AH stuff serving as DE bait for chanters farming the AH.


"They" in that sentence clearly meant "Enchanters."

Which is true. Enchanter's chance to get the mats from a drop in a party is exactly the same as it was before.

[EDIT]

And, FYI to people claiming that enchanting is SO expensive to level. I am currently doing both Tailoring and Enchanting on a Mage alt.

He has not sold a single thing on the AH (none of the dropped gems. No enchanting mats. No greens. Nothing), but has bought items for his non-heirloom slots. The only money he has coming in is from quests and vendor trash.

Leveling BOTH skills to 225 (so far), I'm at 600 gold (down 400 from my 1K seed money).

To PL JC (alone), I had to spend well over 1K just to get here.

I seriously doubt I'm going to hit a point where I'm spending SO MUCH to level both, due to already planning my route. And I'm already bidding on items I know I'll need mats from. That's letting me get them VERY cheap.

And it has taken no work. I put way more energy into finding a cheap way to do JC, and I came out WAY over my current needed amount.

Enchanting is cheap as **** to level, if you aren't stupidly buying out any item that produces a mat you want. And doing that is still safer than doing it to level JC (and probably BS as well, at least).

Edited, Dec 23rd 2009 2:09pm by idiggory
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#41 Dec 24 2009 at 1:56 AM Rating: Good
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The DE Option has driven the price of dusts on my server from about 3g25s to, so far, 1g each.

It has completely killed any profits I had from the dust market, and I've had to start moving to scrolls.
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#42 Dec 24 2009 at 6:36 AM Rating: Decent
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It has completely killed any profits I had from the dust market, and I've had to start moving to scrolls.


Which, all opinions over whether or not it was a fair change aside, is probably exactly what Blizzard wanted.
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#43 Dec 27 2009 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
idiggory wrote:


Which is true. Enchanter's chance to get the mats from a drop in a party is exactly the same as it was before.



Yeah but other people then sold the greens on the AH, not the materials. Non-enchanters aren't too worried if they crash the market either. You have to admit that you were wrong about your predictions before.

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#44 Dec 27 2009 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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This thread is a little old now, as 3.3 is well under way and, yes, the market for enchanting matts has crashed around 60-70%, but just a little final note (at least as far as I'm concerned) ...

Quote:
It has been refuted. You just didn't understand.

This change will not increase the number of materials available on the AH.


You see, the thing is that the market has indeed been flooded with matts, supply being larger to demand compared to the previous status is what has driven the prices lower, it seems you were wrong after all. Furthermore, the supply side of the market has also taken a hike, as greens, blues and purples which were previously vendored or simply not disenchanted in instances (it did happen at least on my server as far as I know), are now entering the market as enchanting matts.
#45 Dec 27 2009 at 7:31 PM Rating: Good
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LGarth wrote:
This thread is a little old now, as 3.3 is well under way and, yes, the market for enchanting matts has crashed around 60-70%, but just a little final note (at least as far as I'm concerned) ...

Quote:
It has been refuted. You just didn't understand.

This change will not increase the number of materials available on the AH.


You see, the thing is that the market has indeed been flooded with matts, supply being larger to demand compared to the previous status is what has driven the prices lower, it seems you were wrong after all. Furthermore, the supply side of the market has also taken a hike, as greens, blues and purples which were previously vendored or simply not disenchanted in instances (it did happen at least on my server as far as I know), are now entering the market as enchanting matts.

99% of the crash in the market is because people are running far, far, far more dungeons now than they ever were before the patch, at ALL level ranges. The number of mats entering the market now compared to before due to this change is marginal - it is, in fact, equal to however many people were vendoring before and aren't now. Anyone who used to vendor their greens, and now chooses to DE them because there's an enchanter in their group, is causing an increase to the supply side of the market. But the idea that this is somehow remotely comparable to the influx of enchanting materials caused by the LFG change is ludicrous. Again, 99% of this is due to the LFG change and is completely unrelated to the new disenchant option.
#46 Dec 27 2009 at 7:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah but other people then sold the greens on the AH, not the materials. Non-enchanters aren't too worried if they crash the market either. You have to admit that you were wrong about your predictions before.


That post was simply correcting someone who falsely interpreted another poster. It wasn't meant to make a comment about the overall state of mats on the AH. That's irrelevant to the post in question.

However.

The fall on my server hasn't been even remotely that bad.

Before, Dream Shards went for 13-15G. Now they go for 11-12.

Abyss Crystals have dropped 4G.

Infinite Dust are most changed, since they've dropped 20-75 silver, depending on the day of the week. But they weren't profit before anyway.

The best part? Scrolls of Berserking are up TWO HUNDRED GOLD+.

Mongoose is up by 50-100G.

Black Magic is up 150-250 (I've seen it up to 350).

Maybe your server's economy sucks, but enchanters on mine are making just as much (if not more) than before.

People need enchants. Put enchants on AH. Simple.
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#47 Dec 28 2009 at 3:00 AM Rating: Decent
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99% of the crash in the market is because people are running far, far, far more dungeons now than they ever were before the patch, at ALL level ranges
I'd love to have a good excel spreadsheet with all the numbers to really know where the increase in supply comes from. With a vast majority of the wow population being at level cap, I'm inclined it stems from more matts entering the market post DE option, though.

As a side note, the new lfg tool is amazing for leveling toons, just had to say it.

Edited, Dec 28th 2009 4:07am by LGarth
#48 Dec 28 2009 at 6:31 AM Rating: Decent
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The thing is that enchanters may forget how few of them there actually are. Since you always have the DE option available, you don't see how many parties form without one. I'd say about 20-40% of my parties have had an enchanter in them.

Furthermore, those mats are being spread across 4-5 realms, generally. Think about how often you find yourself in a group with someone from your own realm. Those are the ONLY mats from your group that will affect your own server's economy.

So, the question is really how often people from your own server run instances. Because that's what will decide how many mats enter the market. If they have similar luck with partying, then 20% of their groups will let them gain some mats (maybe). Remember that you CAN EASILY go through an instance with the RNG factor and not get any mats. I've done it many times. Infinite Dust doesn't really count, since it was more profit to vendor most greens BEFORE patch 3.3 on my server.

I have trouble believing the DE change alone is causing much of anything. Once fewer instances are being run, prices will stop dropping (and it isn't clear to me that they will continue to drop at all, since we will be receiving a new wing soon).
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#49 Dec 28 2009 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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This thread is srz bizness!

I am enchanter and have been so since vanilla wow. A couple of points I would like to make here:

1. I leveled my enchanting solely from quest drops and dungeon runs and have never purchased a single mat from the AH (this is how it should be)

2. I have every profession leveled and none of them were as easy as enchanting to level besides maybe Alchemy and the gathering profs of course. Every other profession requires very expensive mats to get a skill up once you get past the fodder levels (for example: orbs, arctic fur, 50 thorium bars per item, etc..) where as enchanting has none of that for the most part.

3. I have made 50g tips at a time doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! Seriously...and I make them come to wherever I am for the most part.

4. I have also never tried selling scrolls because I have 6 level 80s and need every possible mat I can get to enchant their gear.

5. The LFG greed/disenchant thing is a cool feature. I know all you enchanters out there have to realize what a complete **** it is to get an enchanter to disenchant a non-enchanters greens and blues. As an enchanter I will NEVER disenchant for someone I don't know. Before the LFG tool people were always advertising for enchanters to DE their stuff and now its unecessary.

6. Abyss crystals are EVERYWHERE. Seriously get over it...

7. The only real problem I might have with this is the fact that enchanters can;t choose whether to let a group roll for DE or not. There should be an option to turn it off if the enchanter so allows. I know this example has been used many many many times, but a skinner NEVER shares what they skin and the group can't roll on it. I like for everyone to be treated fairly so if an enchanter must share their mats, so should skinners (leg kits anyone...we all need them and must purchase the mats on the AH). The same could also be said for mining and herbalism though so meh... (personlly I could care less about my groups getting to roll DE...I never kept the shards in dungeons anyway before this feature and always gave the abyss to either the tank or the healer).

8. I do wish that the enchanter in the group could be identified somehow so that group members knew the reason they were able to roll DE so that at least the enchanter could get a thank you or for those willing to offer a tip for their services. I have never had a group say thank you for being able to DE...a simple thanks goes a long way (just like you say thanks for fish feasts,mage food, buffs, etc..)

Overall, I like the new system and it improves PUG experiences because now lazy people are able to enchant their stuff and we all know that most PUGs are composed of the lazy peeps who don't want to farm rep or mats..at least on my server.
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#50 Jan 07 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Just out of curiousity, how would folks feel if you could "borrow" the professions of other folks in your party? Would you, as a jewelcrafter, have a problem with a miner mining ore in an instance and being able to immediately prospect it, courtesy of your JC skill? How about having a herbalist be able to borrow your inscription skill and get pigments/ink from it after herbing an item? What about anyone in the group having the ability to turn cloth into bolts using a tailor's skillset?

I'm not claiming a position either way, but I'm curious how y'all feel about that. Those seem like a very similar scenario to the D/E option; you have the existing system in place, except your greeded item can now borrow an enchanter's skill without their consent...

Cheers,
Jorge
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#51 Jan 07 2010 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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FuriousJorge wrote:
Just out of curiousity, how would folks feel if you could "borrow" the professions of other folks in your party? Would you, as a jewelcrafter, have a problem with a miner mining ore in an instance and being able to immediately prospect it, courtesy of your JC skill? How about having a herbalist be able to borrow your inscription skill and get pigments/ink from it after herbing an item? What about anyone in the group having the ability to turn cloth into bolts using a tailor's skillset?

I'm not claiming a position either way, but I'm curious how y'all feel about that. Those seem like a very similar scenario to the D/E option; you have the existing system in place, except your greeded item can now borrow an enchanter's skill without their consent...

I've said it before, I believe in this very thread, but I don't even herb in dungeons. If someone in my party - explicitly there to help me accomplish my goals - wants to do it, I'd /gladly/ "loan" them my herbalism skill.
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