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I support Gil Buying...Follow

#1 May 07 2006 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Stop!
Don't touch that rate down button just yet! I found this very interesting thread on the FFXI General Discussion Forum and saw that the (OP) had some very valid points.

Since alot of servers tend to think of us as the biggest gil buying/selling server I thought I would bring her post to our forum to stimulate some discussion or whatnot.

Enjoy!

So here is the original post:

CellyO wrote:
Yes, I support gil buying with every fiber of my being.

... There, now that I've ensured that I'll be defaulted by the 90% of people on this forum that only read the topic and the first sentence, then rate a post, I'll get further into this with only the people who are actually going to listen as my audience.

I support gil buying. No, I do not buy gil. I am a dirt-poor college student who couldn't afford gil if she wanted to, and believes anything past the $15 membership fee for my character and my three mules to be a waste of money I need for food and rent. So, the "u onleh suppert it cuz u'z a gil buyerer" argument, though the trump card of most people's arsenals, does not apply here.

And no, I do not go to college in China, so I don't support gil buying because it feeds my nonexistent family.

I do, however, strongly support buying gil. If you've been around this game like I have, and been in the amount of parties I've been in, maybe you would too. This is going to sound a little like bragging about my jobs, but don't try to confuse the two, I'm actually slightly ashamed of how much I've played this stupid game. But, I am a WHM75, BLM75, BRD75, DRG73, PLD66, NIN60, THF54, WAR/MNK/RNG/SAM/RDM/SMN 37, and no other job I have is below L:10.

Yes, it's sad. Yes, I know. But that is neither here nor there. The point is, in my extensive experience with EXP parties, I have been in my share of bad ones. I've seen a Warrior with equipment so bad that he missed a whole Rampage on a Very Tough enemy. I've partied with a Ninja in the 40s who did not have Utsusemi: Ni because he couldn't afford it. I've had a Ranger in my party meleeing with daggers and not shooting arrows because they were too expensive. I've invited a full AF Monk with a L:50 weapon to a L:75 merit party because I figured it was a trustworthy enough venture. I've had my EXP dragged through the ground by these sorts of people, all of whom don't buy gil.

On the other hand, I've been in parties with Warriors with Peacock Charms, Haubergeons +1 and all sort of crazy equipment, who know so little about the game that you can be sure they didn't earn any of it. But, they did their job, because it's brainless work playing a melee damage dealer, and the EXP came rolling in. I've partied with all sorts of decked out melees, some of which earned all they had, some of which didn't, neither time did I ask or care. In each case that this has happened, I was happier in my party than I would've been with an honest gimp, any day.

.. And no, I'm not saying everyone who buys gil is a bad player. That's just stereotyping, and there are plenty of gil buyers who keep it a secret and no one ever knows, who are very respected players across all servers. In fact, usually one's book knowledge of FFXI has very little bearing on their ability to do their job. I've seen people who know a heck of a lot about the game come out and stink up the joint in a party, trust me.

But, the bottom line, the overriding factor of this game, is how much EXP you get per hour. You can tell me you'd take an honest party of hard-working Joes and Janes without good equipment, bringing in 3,000 EXP an hour, over a group where you and five gil buyers tear up the area for 6-8,000 EXP in the same amount of time if you want. Trust me, I won't believe you unless you make a really good case for yourself, because morals are out the window at that point. Nearly everyone will turn a blind eye to the blatant signs of bought gil when faced with going literally twice as fast as a gimp party, and I will eagerly admit I'm no exception. Forget morals, making a statement and playing with badly-equipped EXP voids isn't worth the time I have to devote to it.

I understand the fact that gil buying messes up the economy. I saw it firsthand over Christmas when Behemoth Hides were 20 million gil each on my server. I broke a pair of Unicorn Leggings someone was having me make, and they quit the game because their life savings was gone in that one second. I felt bad about that, that inflation can ruin a person the way it ruined my client. But, life goes on. Inflation is only temporary, and only half caused by gil buying anyway. The other half is Japanese players who don't buy gil, but have an infinite supply, and will pay whatever it takes to get an item. Hence why Gun Belts jumped from 30,000 to 7 million gil in one sale on my server. Risatan to Misapon is definitely not a gil buyer sale, I can assure you. Although gil buyers are responsible for part of the problem, and I acknowledge that, it's not the whole deal or even close.

But why, if these things happen in the economy, do I still support gil buying? Well, I am an endgame player. I have a L:100 craft and endgame linkshells, I have no shortage of money and, if things ever look grim, I just spam craft and I'm back on my feet. The average economy that players toil under doesn't affect me anymore, so I'm free to not care about it. I am not the only endgame player in this sort of situation, either. Many of my friends are also free of the shackles of the economy, and can concentrate soley on playing the game.

I feel bad for people who see the items they desperately want being pricejacked, and then bought by some gil buyer or loaded JP player, but there's nothing I can do about it. Regardless of whether or not I support or protest the sale of gil, it will continue unabated. There's no use trying to fight it.

... But, back to the topic at hand. A lazy person who won't go out and farm, craft, camp NMs and do whatever it takes to get good equipment is a worse burden to a party than any gil buyer could ever be. In melee jobs in particular, it's not enough to know what you're doing, you need the money to back it up. Ninja, an increasingly popular job, can only function if the person is loaded--both with talent and gil. The almighty dollar is the overriding force in the efficiency of most jobs to a party.

Do I prefer honest, hard-working people who got their money legitimately, but still tear enemies apart as well as or better than any gil buyer? Of COURSE I do. Those are my favorite types of players, and if everyone was that way, I would be protesting the sale of gil like the rest of you.

But, we live in the real world here, and the general mentality of players on FFXI is "if I can't afford it, it's optional." Erase is optional, Utsusemi: Ni is optional, elemental staves are optional, food is optional, critical spells and items are optional, everything that makes a player worth a party spot is considered in this day and age to be OPTIONAL. And trying to be anything but a sponge is most definitely optional.

To be a worthy party member, a person needs certain things. The only ways to get those things are to go out and work hard, level a craft and take part in a good linkshell... or to buy gil. While I would prefer the former to the latter, I would take the latter in a heartbeat over just doing neither.

I've had too many parties ruined by lazy sponges and people who won't earn money to care how they get gil anymore, as long as they have it. If that means buying gil, I support their decision to do so, because it'll lessen the amount of horrible parties significantly.

In a utopian world, no one would have to do their part to contribute to a party. But FFXI is no utopia. I support people doing what they have to to contribute to my parties, even if what they have to do is buy gil. They're wasting their money, but hey, I don't know them. They can do whatever they want the other 364 days of the year, but as long as they come prepared to EXP and put their whole heart into it while they're there, I couldn't possibly care any less if they have bought gil, have stolen items, have MPK'd people for NMs. It all just seriously doesn't matter to me.

Ethics are out the window. The only true factor in this game is how fast a party gets EXP. Put your morals aside and think about your character, because it's a video game, and you play it to have fun. Go out and fight for your causes in the real world, where your voice could actually help a lot of good things. Leave FFXI for enjoyment and the betterment of your character.

Now default me please, any publicity is good publicity. Agree with me or disagree, I'm just happy people have opinions. :3

Edited, Fri May 5 14:06:55 2006 by CellyO


Original Thread

Please Discuss.

~Vas




Edited, Sun May 7 13:58:55 2006 by Vasana
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#2 May 07 2006 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You can tell me you'd take an honest party of hard-working Joes and Janes without good equipment, bringing in 3,000 EXP an hour, over a group where you and five gil buyers tear up the area for 6-8,000 EXP in the same amount of time if you want. Trust me, I won't believe you unless you make a really good case for yourself, because morals are out the window at that point.



yes i will. waiting for dispel/refresh and then having one of the key party members turn on a$$-hole mode kinda drove me to bst.


Quote:
But why, if these things happen in the economy, do I still support gil buying? Well, I am an endgame player. I have a L:100 craft and endgame linkshells, I have no shortage of money and, if things ever look grim, I just spam craft and I'm back on my feet. The average economy that players toil under doesn't affect me anymore, so I'm free to not care about it. I am not the only endgame player in this sort of situation, either. Many of my friends are also free of the shackles of the economy, and can concentrate soley on playing the game.


oook?


Quote:
.. But, back to the topic at hand. A lazy person who won't go out and farm, craft, camp NMs and do whatever it takes to get good equipment is a worse burden to a party than any gil buyer could ever be.


could have saved everyone a lot of time reading by stating the obvious.
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#3 May 07 2006 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
Vasana the Silent wrote:
Since alot of servers tend to think of us as the biggest gil buying/selling server I thought I would bring her post to our forum to stimulate some discussion or whatnot.
They do? O.O Huh. I'm blissfully anaware of most of the drama that goes down intraserver, let alone interserver. Except the stuff that people come here and write poorly-worded rants about, of course.

I don't know about the post itself. I've never worried too much about my own exp/hour. I guess that makes me a bad player or something. Not that I don't try to do my best, it's just that I stick with some really sh*tty parties, because it doesn't concern me that much. That and it's karma for playing mostly BRD and WHM with the fast invites. ;)

Granted, I don't have a 100 craft or a 75 job, and my main source of income is running teleports, which can be hit-or-miss. But if the trade-off is crappy parties vs. all the bullsh*t that RMT brings with it, I'll take the crappy parties. They're part of the experience, and they make the good parties seem that much better.

Edited, Sun May 7 14:33:26 2006 by Ellipses
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#4 May 07 2006 at 1:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Like I said on the original thread, the author's logic is not exactly the right way to approach the situation.

OP's assumption in this case, is that majority of the gilbuying players have good gear whereas the majority of non-gilbuying players do not. However, one must look at the reason behind this phenomenon. Why is it that equipment considered "uber" have become so expensive as to be prohibitive for the regular players? Granted, there certainly is a factor of continuing inflation due to influx of gil, but in my opinion, it is the gilsellers themselves who initiated the cycle of higher prices by unnecessarily inflating the value of many goods.

Hence, the actions which the OP so fervently support, in turn contribute to the reasoning which fuels the OP's argument. Therefore, I must conclude that the OP's reason is not valide at all.
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#5 May 07 2006 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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Hmmmm...CellyO argument is primarily flawed, is based on a false premise and really only serves her somewhat hedonistic views. On one hand, I do agree that while many people denounce buying gils they, in that same breath, secretly fork over the real currency for game currency (these are the worst types of hyopcrite).

However, a lot of people are affected by the selling and buying of gils for many reasons. For instance, many people are not "end-game players" and even those who have 1 or 2 jobs that are 75 still rely on good old-fashioned farming and crafting. I've known people (with one or two 75 jobs) who weren't in HNMLS because a): They couldn't devote the necessary time/specific time to go to Sky or wherever. b): Didn't want to wait to get a certain item, using the point system. With the arrival of the new players inflation will be an especially crippling factor that is most likely to hinder their gameplay.

Why does morality have to go out the window? Because it's game? Be that as it may, morality is ever present in FFXI...it's the difference between stealing someone's NM, completely monopolizing a NM spawn point or lotting on an item someone desperately needed. By doing any of these things you rob that person of the reason they play the game, which is to have fun.

I'm not one to point the finger and start accusing someone of being a gil-seller because they have excellent gear. Granted, I'll be a little jealous but most players have to work especially hard for what they have. However, I will silently question someone's credibility and skill if they are completely oblivious to what needs to be done in a party and how to do their job.

No one likes to be in a party with someone who has lousy gear. The reasons they aren't equipped with updated gear differs from person to person. Some people are new, levelling their first job and don't know that the item or spell is important to the party, some people know and don't care and some people are FFXI veterans who just don't feel like getting whatever because this is just their subjob or a job they're leveling for their HNMLS or whatever the case may be. I can sympathize with the former and usually go out of my way to help them.

I've never bought gil BUT I have been tempted to do so. Like CellyO, I am also a college student and I don't have money to throw around. However, unlike CellyO, I only played the game for about 7 months and I had 1 lvl. 75 character and considered a mule a luxury item turned necessity. I also had no craft leveled up past 13. So, there would be no bouncing back on my feet if the gil-sellers decided to screw with the gil economy.
Items for crafts also cost gil, if I'm not completed mistaken.

Ethics vary from person to person. Some people will willingly invite a known gil-seller/gil-buyer to their party if they really need that specific job. Some people won't because they remember how long and hard they worked to make sure they got what they needed and that, maybe because of people like said gilbuyer/gil-seller it took them longer and costs them more to get it. EXP just isn't that important to some, including me. Thankfully, I was never gimped as a TARU RDM. I quested and farmed my butt off and when someone gave me something useful I was grateful, hence the Astral Rings I had but seldom wore.

Inflation was why I quit the game. Indeed, "end-game" players are more resilient but I'm sure even they get tired of the absurd prices and the even more absurdity of people buying the items.





Edited, Sun May 7 14:51:47 2006 by Xiong
#6 May 07 2006 at 2:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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So I read the entire post twice, to give it some time to sink in...

Yes, I agree with her arguments with EXP parties - good ones and bad ones. No, I don't support buying gil.

The way I see it, some things ARE optional. No, Erase isn't really optional, for a few levels yes, throughout the game no. Dispel is not optional, Utsusemi is not optional. Yes, a Haubergeon +1 is optional, yes a Noble's Tunic is optional. These types of items are insanely expensive, and well beyond the majority of players' budgets. Those things that are considered "Critical spells and equipment" should be farmed for, worked towards. Those that are optional, can often wait.

And yes, a lot of people simply don't have time for end-game activities. It's actually sad that this game is so geared for, and reliant on end-game. It truly must be frusterating for those that don't have the time to devote to an HNMLS. To work towards 75, and when they get there, find that they're just as broke, just as lacking, and still have no better way to get the items that they lack. To hit 75, and still be out in Sarutabaruta farming Silk Threads.

RMT ruins the economy yes, and as far as the comment about loaded JP players... I don't think it's their fault for paying so much for items, if they need it, and have the money, they're going to get it. The fact that gilselling and gilbuying have inflated the price of what they need to 50 times what it's worth isn't their fault, just like us they still need the item, so they're going to buy it. No, I don't think that gilbuying is the sole reason that our economy is destroyed, it's a wide array of things, but in my honest opinion, RMT has a very large part of that pie. High level crafters, that make it almost impossible for anyone in their craft under them to reach their level, just another small piece of the cause of the decay of our economy. Truth be told, in-game economies are never going to be steady, and honest, because in pretty much every MMO, there's sites that deal with RMT. A short while later, and bam, you're right where you were again.

To say that morals and such should go out the window, is a rather ignorant thing to say. I do sympathize with the OP, in having to deal with people who are horribly unequipped and drag the xp/hr down to 3000. If someone is *that* bad, then don't party with them. Learn to ask, before you invite, or examine before you invite. Ask the WHM, before you invite, if they have Erase. If they say no, tell them nevermind then. I'm sure they'll get the picture. Ask the NIN, before you invite, if he/she has Utsusemi: Ni, if the answer is no, don't invite, again, I'm sure they'll get the picture. Yes, even that idea sounds a little rude, but it will get the point across. Maybe the person will buy gil, and go buy Erase, Utsusemi, their SH +1, whatever. Maybe they'll farm for it. As far as whether I'd take gimped XP with an honest party, over outstanding XP with a group of people who have spent $500 getting there, yes, I'd take the honest XP. Lately, I've been semi-static'ing with a group of people, and raking in 6-9k/hr, they're all honest. But I'm just as happy to party with the general public, and get less. But if someone brags about gilbuying in a party, out I'll go, end of story.

Sorry that I've ranted so long, and I apologize if my post is hard to follow, I'm tired, and I have a migraine.

Vasana, I appreciate the post though, to be honest, it's good to see some real conversation on our forums from time to time.
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#7 May 07 2006 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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I'll say what i said in the post the OP copy'd

gil sellers use dirty tactics or some times cheat to get what they want which most LS would not use they ruin people's gaming experience which is almost apart of every game now. every time some one buys gil they support these gil sellers this is why i dont support gil buying.
#8 May 07 2006 at 4:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Ellipses the Silent wrote:
They do? O.O Huh. I'm blissfully anaware of most of the drama that goes down intraserver, let alone interserver. Except the stuff that people come here and write poorly-worded rants about, of course.


Yes, they do. Several friends who went to the fan festival were told, "Oh you're from Remora, isn't that the gil-buying server?" Haha.

Needless to say I was told that those people who said that were from Asura >_>...

~Vas
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#9 May 07 2006 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Simp wrote:

Vasana, I appreciate the post though, to be honest, it's good to see some real conversation on our forums from time to time.


Thanks Simp.
Remora needed a good sit down and discuss thread. This seemed like the ideal topic to stimulate some of our brains.

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#10 May 07 2006 at 5:19 PM Rating: Good
Vasana the Silent wrote:
Yes, they do. Several friends who went to the fan festival were told, "Oh you're from Remora, isn't that the gil-buying server?" Haha.

Needless to say I was told that those people who said that were from Asura >_>...

~Vas

Pfff. Well, if we're that bad, it's only because 75% of our players were originally level 80 PLDs on Asura anyway. Smiley: grin
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#11 May 08 2006 at 1:09 AM Rating: Good
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You don't need good gear to have a good party...

I got bard to 75 in 2 months with less than a mil in gear... the ninja in my static didn't have a scorpion harness, white mage didn't have nobles or verm cloak, etc..

Of course, my static contained some of the best players in the game.

His argument falls compleatly to the wayside when you consider how unimportant gear really is.

You just have to not suck to have a good party, and all the gil in the world won't fix that.

#12 May 08 2006 at 1:19 AM Rating: Good
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Ellipses the Silent wrote:
Pfff. Well, if we're that bad, it's only because 75% of our players were originally level 80 PLDs on Asura anyway. Smiley: grin


Um...lmfao rate up
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#13 May 08 2006 at 2:43 AM Rating: Good
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Vasaaaaaaaana wrote:
Yes, they do. Several friends who went to the fan festival were told, "Oh you're from Remora, isn't that the gil-buying server?" Haha.

Needless to say I was told that those people who said that were from Asura >_>...


People is capable of paying attention to intre-server politics? Hard enough to have enough time to try and balance everything in your life as it is.....

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#14 May 08 2006 at 4:06 AM Rating: Good
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LoL...

"Vasanaaaaaaaaa" I like that. Cute.

~Vas

P.S. Wow, my main post got defaulted! Obviously people can't read! Hmph! Oh well.

Edited, Mon May 8 05:07:27 2006 by Vasana
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#15 May 08 2006 at 5:39 AM Rating: Good
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To me FFXI is a game that makes the long winter hours goes past a little faster than usual. I have had a lot of fun in game, and most fun I have had is with the friends I have made in game and done stuff with them. Like our ENM runs Vasana, I do it because I think its fun. I don’t do it because of the 9k exp we get, or the chance of getting a multimillion gil worth earring. I do it because I have had fun doing it.

To me exp pt is a boring part of the game and something I have to do to discover new areas/adventures in the game.
I will take a fun pt that gives me 3k an hour over a 6-8k exp pt that is dead boring anytime. Only time I complaint on a pt is if people in it are acting like jerks.

I do like the idea of having good gear though. But I am in no rush getting them. Ill take my time farming/NM hunting, and try and save the gil for it. Its not like I have to have the best equip for each damn slot of gear I can put on to be a decent/good player.
But a few things are good to have for a certain job. Some of those things cost a lot of gil others don’t.

Too many players sees EXP pt as the main reson in the game.
Get to 75 as fast as you can, and then play around and discover the fun in the game. And of course they will soon run out of gil, and if they have some leftover real money, the way to IGE or whatever is very short. Witch is sad because I have had a lot of fun in this game and I still don’t have any jobs at 75.

FFXI is a online community, there are ups and downs, you have to overcome difficulties, you make friends, you meet people you don’t like, you have to make money, sometimes you need help, sometimes you help others, you have fun and you get bored.
These things reflect real life as well, and for a community to work people have to play fair.

Gil buying / selling might be a problem because:

*Things cost more Yes, I know, farming objects also cost more, so your time vs gil might be the same. But we will never find out will we? Because the community is off balance.

*We get high level players who don’t really have any experience with the game. Ok, most people that buy gil are decent people that actually help out, are nice and do a good job on events. But they still cheat and contribute to the existence of gil sellers/buyers.

*ZOMG gilsellers are stealing all my nm claims Well.. There will always be competition, either the competition are camping to get the item for use, are camping it to make gil or are gil sellers. However people who monopolize a nm, and learn everything there is to learn about its spawn conditions are extremely hard to beat. And it would be good to eliminate the unnatural factor.

*People get rude Again... most people that buy gil are decent people that actually help out, are nice and do a good job on events. But since some people that buy gil don’t actually know how much work it takes to make gil without buying it with real money, they refuse to party with people with bad or even decent gear. Or they complaint about a mage not having a certain spell that cost way to much for its use. Without gil buyers/sellers a lot of these people would act nicer, I'm sure of it.. Call me stupid but I have faith in people.


FFXI without gil sellers/buyers could be a better place or it could be a worse place. I really have no idea how it would be, and will not pretend I do.
But I would really like to see how it would turn out.
I don’t dislike people that buy gil. I don’t judge a fellow player that I am certain of buy gil. I don’t go around blaming people that buy gil for this situation. I don’t believe I can change this game, or the way it is played.

In my opinion the only reason that gil selling/buying is bad is because:
Players get a option that shouldn’t be there. A fast way that bothers me that is there. Something that is there and are destroying a little of the joy of the game even if I'm not using it. And as long as players are using this option it will not go away.
So to all the gilbuyers out there who are thinking. "So what if I buy gil? I'm already using to much time on this stupid game, and it wont affect other players anyway.”
News flash.. It does affect other players, because it is affecting the way this game is played. And if you are using to much on this game. Witch I at times to myself. Do something about it, buying gil wont do so you are playing less even if you try to convince yourself it does.

EDIT:
Oh yeah allmost forgot.
Boring moments in game like farming, nm camping, synthing and selling are healthy becouse it makes you want to take some breaks from the game. And if you skip these parts you can end up playing a lot more then you really want. Atleast I believe this is the case for many players.

Edited, Mon May 8 07:34:42 2006 by Misima
#16 May 08 2006 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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bleach wrote:
Of course, my static contained some of the best players in the game.


I'm sorry, I've gone over this thread several times and I just cant help but chuckle at this comment everytime I read it. Perhaps I'm reading it the wrong way, anyways ... yes I agree with the rest of your post tho, you can definately have good players/party's with less than 'uber' gear. But could you imagine what that same party could do if they did have the uber stuff. Maybe 110% increase maybe 210% increase. I can only assume it would be an increase but who knows by how much, maybe not enough to make those items worth it.

Although I think gil buying ruins the economy, I can understand the motive people have when buying gil, they wanna be better, they wanna fit in more, they wanna have all the 'uber' gear and whatnot. Reality is though that it takes skill of playing the game to be good, much like the poster I quoted above said. So for that reason, Id say that I support the "elite players who demand other players to have all the 'uber' or else" LESS than gil buyers because those 'elite' players are a huge driving force in people buying gil in the first place.

I hate less than 3K/hr exp, but sometimes it happens and I wouldnt say hey "go buy gil so we can double our EXP" or whatever, just deal with it or move on to a different party if your not happy. I hate how the OP says that this game revolves around EXP/hr. I play this game to have fun, so for me, this game revolves around fun/hour.

Vas,
Ive met you for all of about 15mins while both our party's were waiting to enter separate BCs at W.Shrine ... but I feel that we had a good conversation and you seemed very nice and polite. I am afraid that my single vote wont do you the justice deserved, but you can have it anyways, rate up for you for starting a good thread about a touchy subject and not being scared about all the ignorant people karma bombing you.


~Wiggin
#17 May 08 2006 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
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Lol I kind of understand what CellyO means when she says "morals are out the window." what she acutally means is that, from her point of view it's not 'worth' having a bad time in exp PT because of not playing with 'potential' gil buyers. The way I see it, everyone has there own point of view and CellyO is at one of them. Most players in this side tend to go with the "Not in my backyard" theory.

"Not in my backyard" - pretty much what it means is that you don't care what is happenning as long as it doesn't happend to you. You will support the 'good guys' but you don't really care if the 'baddies' win by the end of the day as long as the trouble is not connected to you.

So people like CellyO is given 2 choices:
#1 Party with a piss poor player who has very little experience, money and 'only want to level up'. This option gives you 3k exp per hour, take away your sanity and keep your moral/honor intact.

#2 A gil buyers with super equip beyond your imagination but, again, little experience and a big ego. This option gives you 5k exp per hour, keep you sane but trash your morals into the sewer.

It's just bad either way but you want your level up so you will have to make a choice between 2 bad ones. The 1st thing come into your mind is which one is worse? Well, now you ahve to put your sanity and your moral on a balance to see what's worth more (or less). If say, you have like 100mil gil in your pocket and all the items you ever needed. You will just pick the #2 option since you just want to get it done with. If you want to buy a SH but you're always shrot on cash b/c the price kept going up due to gil buyers then you might consider the #1 option simply because you just hate gil-buyers.

As you can see, your choice is quite relative to how 'rich' you are (provided that you are the same person just different amount of gil/item). If you're out-of-the-window person who's away from the world economy (you're too rich to be affected) then you would care-less. But if you're just another poor guy/gal in Jeuno, struggling with enough gil to buy a chicken then you will care... a lot... since it's your very own well-being.

If gil selling/buying weren't there then what would happend? Well for certain the poor player without any experienve will still be there since these people wouldn't be farming anyway. The 'rich' gil buyers with big ego will either play less/slow or just become poor players with no experience since they can't play for long or earn enough money (that's why they buy gil in the 1st place).

Would the world be a better place without gil sellers? I'm not so sure. NM will still be overly camped by people wanting to make gils or just want items. Price won't be very inflated but you can't make a lot of money (buyers are poor anyway) so buying them would still be hard. You'll get maybe a bit less players and more poor people. Rare items will be hard-earned, quite rewarding to have them but since not many people have them, you shouldn't expect super strong PT running around everyday. People who can and can't buy gil will be come more 'equal' but people who already have a lot of items or money would be unaffected and the gap between them and the rest of the world widens.
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#18 May 08 2006 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I Support Gil Buying. I view "Gilbuying" the same way as I view "Power Leveling" and "Gift Receiving".

If someone PL's you to level 20 so you can bypass the d00nes, did you earn that level? No, you did not. It doesn't matter if you have four lvl 75 jobs and you just wanted a faster way to get back to endgame events while bypassing the noobs who infest the d00nes. You have a level that you did not earn and are not ashamed to show it off.

((Personally Pet Peeve)) If someone you know or even don't know gives you an Astral Ring or Vermy Cloak or whatever the item may be, just because they could and you accepted it doesn't mean it was the morally right thing to do. You did not farm for that item, you did not quest for that item, you did camp for that item, that item was given to you. You have an item that you did not earn and are not ashamed to show it off.

They are all means in which players obtain what they want without earning it. As long as people want to obtain a level without fully working for it, without taking the time to learn every aspect of that job. They will ask for and will recieve a "Power Level". As long as there are people who want the best gear and will do anything to recieve them. There will always be "Gift Receiving" and "Gil Buying".

You may not like where I stand on this issue, but you at least you know where I stand on this issue.

Commense the rate downs and lack of party invites that I will receive from now on.


Edited, Mon May 8 16:13:31 2006 by Eniwetok
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#19 May 08 2006 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I understand why CellyO has that particular point of view, and the reality is that somewhere along the lines we all make a compromise with our morals/honor at one point or another on the long road to 75 (myself included), i've had good pt's with uber exp/hr, and crappy ones, and i've met good people who know alot about the game, and are trully helpful but dirt poor, but knew their job really well but lacked things like Erase/Hauby's,/SH/Sniper's, and etc. The sad part is that we vie UBER expensive items like that as essential, and they are really not, but they make the long road to 75 that much shorter, due to the exp rolling in alot faster, lackig certain items/spells will not make you a better player, it simply makes ur job alot easier, so you either spend/waste ur time farming, leveling a craft, BCNM's ur way to millions of gil, or be considered GIMPED/lazy.

I've spent/wasted enough time LFP or forming a PT then weeding out the undesirables, to have turned a blind eye to a pt with a known GS from time to time, yeah i regretted it later, but i made a compromise with my morals simply due to sheer frustration at 2k exp/hr parties, if i have the luxury of finding people who are honest and hard working then great, but if im short one 1 job to get my PT going, its really going to depend no how much time ive spend with a pt and no exp rolling in, more often than not ill wait, but on that rare,crappy, sh*tty day at work, not in the mood to way day, i will prob blind invite and not care if they are a GS or not, i've met a few people i've been positive were GS's that turned out to be pretty damm nice, helpfull decent human beings.... they may not be on my Friend's list, but i do not ignore their /tells or salutations, again another small compromise, they have offered to help me on occasions with RARE/EX crap i need, but i've politely refused and they knew why, i do not spam jeuno with accusations of GS/GB but only because i've made a compromise with my morals at one point or another, and feel it would be hyppocritical to point a finger. So untill SE completely wipes out every GS/BG account, im not going to condone GB/GS, but i won'd condemn poor joe schmoe who just bought gil to buy his 2nd Snipers Ring, cuz GB/GS hiked up the price so high his last 2 months of farming/crafting were a waste of time, and left him frustrated/pist. Lets face it not everyone posseses the patience to farm, and craft, going from mule to mule to check cheapest prices on items u need, then sending the gil to that mule, then sending the stuff to ur crafter/main.

Just my $0.02, rate up or down i don't care, i just wanted to express my opinion. Free country and all that jazz. (>.>)
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#20 May 08 2006 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
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Kenobi wrote:
I Support Gil Buying. I view "Gilbuying" the same way as I view "Power Leveling" and "Gift Receiving".



Sooooooooo, in your opinion, buying gil from a third party, thus contributing to an already over inflated economy is the same as your friend helping you get subjob of a subjob out of the dunes?

Must be the toxic fumes I'm inhaling at my lab, cause that makes no sense to me what so ever.
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#21 May 08 2006 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Sooooooooo, in your opinion, buying gil from a third party, thus contributing to an already over inflated economy is the same as your friend helping you get subjob of a subjob out of the dunes?

Must be the toxic fumes I'm inhaling at my lab, cause that makes no sense to me what so ever


It makes absolute sense. You did not earn that level just as much as that gilbuyer did not earn their gil. The bulk of the jacked up economy did not come from gilbuyers or sellers. It came from everyday players wanting more gil for their items at the Auction House. If you people are saying that people should grind and farm and craft and do everything "legit" to earn their gil, why can't we have the same mindset when it comes to leveling?

Quote:
They are all means in which players obtain what they want without earning it
That's my stance and I am sticking to it.
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#22 May 08 2006 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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KPChief wrote:
bleach wrote:
Of course, my static contained some of the best players in the game.


I'm sorry, I've gone over this thread several times and I just cant help but chuckle at this comment everytime I read it. Perhaps I'm reading it the wrong way, anyways ... yes I agree with the rest of your post tho, you can definately have good players/party's with less than 'uber' gear. But could you imagine what that same party could do if they did have the uber stuff. Maybe 110% increase maybe 210% increase. I can only assume it would be an increase but who knows by how much, maybe not enough to make those items worth it.

I hate less than 3K/hr exp, but sometimes it happens and I wouldnt say hey "go buy gil so we can double our EXP" or whatever, just deal with it or move on to a different party if your not happy. I hate how the OP says that this game revolves around EXP/hr. I play this game to have fun, so for me, this game revolves around fun/hour.

~Wiggin


I have some of the best gear in the game for monk... going from naked to 75 won't give me a 210% increase in damage and a lot of the gear I have didn't even cost me a dime.

My ninja has virtually no expensive gear and can main tank just about any Dynamis just fine.

I can take an entire party of naked tarus and get more than 3k/hour of exp by just chaining tough mobs.. well, I might give the melee some sort of cheap weapon so they arn't bare handed :)

There is a lot to be said about proper planning and execution.

Edited, Mon May 8 19:19:05 2006 by bleach
#23 May 08 2006 at 7:19 PM Rating: Good
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im not arguing that point -.- reread my post.
im saying
A) I find it hard to beleive that you PTd with the 'best players in the game' as there is no way you've PTd will all the players in the game to compare and I laugh when people say things like that and ...
B)there IS alot to be said by proper planning and excecution BUT if you do the same planning/excection AND have better gear you will do better -,-
thats what im saying, perhaps i wasnt clear in first post, and those werent my main points anyways, I really was making a point about how the 'elitist' type players aggitate the gil buying issue to the point where they are to blame more so(barely) than the actual gil buyers imho.


~Wiggin
#24 May 08 2006 at 7:36 PM Rating: Decent
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KPChief wrote:
im not arguing that point -.- reread my post.
im saying
A) I find it hard to beleive that you PTd with the 'best players in the game' as there is no way you've PTd will all the players in the game to compare and I laugh when people say things like that and ...

~Wiggin


If there were better players I would of heard about them.

#25 May 08 2006 at 7:54 PM Rating: Good
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bleach wrote:


If there were better players I would of heard about them.



LMAO, ok, thats just plain stuck up, I hope your kidding -.-
#26 May 08 2006 at 8:33 PM Rating: Decent
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KPChief wrote:
bleach wrote:


If there were better players I would of heard about them.



LMAO, ok, thats just plain stuck up, I hope your kidding -.-


I'm not.. ask anyone who knows me ;)
#27 May 08 2006 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
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Cay wrote:
thus contributing to an already over inflated economy


I said contributing, not causing. There's a difference.

Second, my arguement do not stem from whether you "legitimately" earn your level/equipment. My argument stems from the fact that by taking such a lenient view of buying gil, you CONTRIBUTE to inflation, which is one of the major reasons why normal players become incapable of obtaining many of the more expensive items in this game. The original OP's POV is that gil buying makes better player, well, gil buying makes regular players worse by comparison.
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#28 May 08 2006 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:


I said contributing, not causing. There's a difference.

Second, my argument do not stem from whether you "legitimately" earn your level/equipment. My argument stems from the fact that by taking such a lenient view of buying gil, you CONTRIBUTE to inflation, which is one of the major reasons why normal players become incapable of obtaining many of the more expensive items in this game. The original OP's POV is that gil buying makes better player, well, gil buying makes regular players worse by comparison.


I don't know about the whole 'contribution' by buying gil. I know for a fact that if you get a gil drop from a goblin then you are 'contributing' to inflation whether you like it or not since it's a source of money generation. If you buy something from an NPC then you're contributing to deflation since you let the money escape the economy. I don't think that using gil sellers can explain most of the cause in inflation (note: the word 'explain' is used in statistics term). Also, note that if you lose or consume items not from vendor then you also 'contribute' to inflation as the definition of inflation is the price of the goods today compare to the goods of the past - if the amount of goods overall decreases without the lost in money then it will create 'inflation' (strictly speaking, nothing else changes during the time). If you earn or obtain a sellable item to AH or someone else then you are contributing to deflation (works the other way around).

According to your point of view, one person should never ever accept money from a 'about to retire' player if he/she has no other means of wasting his/her available gil. If one person leaves the game but all the money that is left of that person remains then the person receiving the money and spend it will be 'contributing' to inflation. This is b/c the economy has the same amount of money but less people in it (assuming everything else does not change). OR you can see that as money in circulation has increased. If you can look at a player with 3 mules full of gil (3x999,999,999 gil?) but never actually spend them (a collector? I have seen some people having such gil). Now assume that he gives all of those to his 'friend' who will spend all of them on various things on the market... well you get inflation for sure.

That case never happened BUT you can have multiple cases that are similar to it. Say, 200 people with about 10mil each will cause quite a stir amount the economy. Then you add the Gil sellers who actually accelerate inflation, you'll get a pretty mess. Still, does that mean all of the players should never ever accept money from retiring players? Or should the retiring players just carry all of their assets away? Various actions and actors create inflations, it's important to know what is changing to actually motivates or accelerates inflation.
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#29 May 08 2006 at 11:01 PM Rating: Good
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The primary reason for inflation are people who power level crafts.

I've tracked FFXI economy for a long time ;)
#30 May 08 2006 at 11:30 PM Rating: Decent
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It's like a real life stock exchange.
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#31 May 08 2006 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Vasana the Silent wrote:
It's like a real life stock exchange.


Ya, if people in real life people bought billions of dollars worth of gold and dumped in the ocean to level up their e-penis skill it would hurt the economy pretty bad :)
#32 May 08 2006 at 11:59 PM Rating: Good
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Vasana is correct!!! Bingo! Here's a cookie.

@bleach, you're close but not quite since there are other people who are... well acutally wasting money too. Crafters and HQ crafters are big players though.

Yes! It's just like real life stock exchange, the reason for super fast inflation IS because of the bubble effect! People believe that there is an inflation, they get nervous... they start to buy/craft/own/keep items and get rit of their gil (turning money into items).

Result? Nobody wants to keep gil in their pockets, they just find some sort of investment and spend their gil. Price get an express train to the moon (wow I remember someone shout for a 50mil gil SH?). People with no money to spend... what do they do? They get nervous too, when their 'dreams' are becoming more and more out of reach. So a portion (not sure how big) of them play their game at the next level. And the cycle when on and on and on....

Until SE slamed a big fist into the annoying pests, bust everyone's bubbles. What next? bubbles are gone, everyone thinks that inflation is over and start selling things before the price drop. You get a excess flood in the market.
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#33 May 09 2006 at 12:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm torn on the OP at hand. I don't support gilbuying. I laugh with my friends at all the gilbuyers, just like the majority of people do. However, I do agree with some points the OP made, however I would encourage a different solution than him.

When Rangers can't afford arrows and Warriors miss every hit of Rampage because of crappy gear, it does slow down parties. It does put a damper on my experience in the game. Slow xp because of other peoples' faults ruins my happy days. I would take a 8-10k/hr party over a pick-up 3k/hr party anyday. However, people with uber gear can also slow down my parties and ruin my xp. They can not skillchain correctly, not cure to save anyone's life, not even tank an innocent bunny, not MB.. ever. I would venture to say that 75% of my worst parties were because of lack of skill, not lack of equipment.

The solution is not to buy gil and make yourself look pimp. The solution is to do those things the OP listed: farm, craft, camp NMs, or do whatever it takes (short of gilbuying or stealing) to get good equipment. Condoning gilbuying in this case is condoning laziness.

But even gilbuying won't make you a good player. I can think of a certain Dark Knight as an example. At level 75, a Dark Knight should know how Stun works. On top of that, when the person has mostly HQ gear, Kraken, all kinds of expensive stuff.. it looks really bad when, at 75, he doesn't know how Stun works. This is the type of gilbuyer who is more hilarious than the rest of them. The gilbuying is blatantly obvious, and none of it has made up for the lack of skill the person has.

A party of extremely skilled players can get good xp playing naked. Those same people with mediocre gear will do a little better. Those same people with uber gear will do slightly better. Is that enough of a reason to condone gilbuying? Not in my opinion. A combined total of STR+10 Attack+10 HP+30 (from HQ gear compared to NQ gear - fictional numbers) won't make a Warrior into a God. While it will help his numbers, and make things slightly faster, condoning gilbuying to get those extra STR and Attack and HP and maybe 200 xp per hour isn't worth it.

While xping comprises the vast majority of this game, there are many many other things to do in it. There are several ways to make gil. There are several ways you can obtain gear. If you can't afford a Scorpion Harness for the Accuracy to be able to hit a mob, then fight mobs that aren't IT so you can hit them. Or do the KS30 BCNM that drops Venemous Claw and get a SH crafted. Or make gil in the hundreds of other ways you can make gil, and then purchase the SH. The possibilities are abundant, and laziness is not a valid excuse for gilbuying (again, in my opinion). Greed isn't either, which is where a lot of gilbuying stems from. Spending hundreds of real life dollars to grow an e-penis won't get you off the short yellow bus.

On a tangent note:
Wiggin wrote:
A) I find it hard to beleive that you PTd with the 'best players in the game' as there is no way you've PTd will all the players in the game to compare and I laugh when people say things like that and ...

Devek actually didn't say "the best players in the game". He said "some of the best players in the game". And by that, he means that I wasn't in his static, so it couldn't have been inclusive. ;)
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#34 May 09 2006 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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kenki wrote:

Yes! It's just like real life stock exchange, the reason for super fast inflation IS because of the bubble effect! People believe that there is an inflation, they get nervous... they start to buy/craft/own/keep items and get rit of their gil (turning money into items).


In that aspect its not like a real life stock exchange, people don't 'invest' money to make money.

FFXI boils down to.. how much gil is there in the economy and what can you buy with that gil.

If you add something to ffxi economy gil deflates, if you remove something from it get inflates. If you add gil to the economy it inflates, if you take gil from the economy it deflates.

Buying 100 million gil worth of items and tossing them in the name of a craft is devestating...

I used to run a small site that tracked AH/npc/"farm" prices and had a list of every possible synth in the game and calculated profit/loss from it..

Crafting used to be fun as hell until about 2 years ago.. It used to be possible to profit a craft, bring items into the economy, and level up at the same time.

I wrote a longer post about this somewhere, I can dig it up if you want.



Edited, Tue May 9 01:16:27 2006 by bleach
#35 May 09 2006 at 3:51 AM Rating: Good
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Yep, every goblin you kill, generate some amount of gil, which thus contribute to the inflation of economy.

However, the gilseller strategy is to hog one item; let us say, once upon a time ago, Emperor's pin before that become ra/ex. Normal players, who will rely on gil generated from mobs, selling to NPC, completing missions and quests to fund their purchase of such items. Fine, an accepted standard of trade is established (#gil per item). Now, we introduce a third party, the gilsellers. They monopolize the market (or let us be more realistic, say 75% of the market). As people continue to demand, but now, gilsellers become the sole supplier, and thus able to dictate the value of the item. With no objective body to regulate how they wish to set the value of the item, you are essentially at their mercy.

Now, consider than, that while previously, the normal player may only need to generate, say 1,000,000 gil from the system, now are forced, and must find a way to generate 2,000,000 gil from the system. This gil, in term, is stored with the gilsellers, who continues to hog the market, and thus stockpiling currency. The total amount of currency on the server increases, and since it is primarily a closed market with no major currency sinks, the overall value of each individual currency unit must correspondingly decrease (grantly, there are also more goods generated as well, but as people have the tendency to view money as an measure of wealth versus materials, there will always be those struggle to generate more gil).

Then, there are the players who uses the RL > FFXI argument to justify the purchase of gil, now that their normal method of generating gil becomes insufficent. Suddenly, a relatively stable economy with a slow inflation rate (presumably) receives an influx of gil previously unavailable due to hording of the gilbuyers. With this singular move, value of gil plummet, and the pricing of item sky rockets. See the huge surge in item price just around christmas when the gilsellers figured out how to generate a large quantity of gil.

Now, in my opinion, by supporting gilbuying, it is this process of ever worsening cycle that is being supported, and in part, added to. This does NOT mean that by not supporting gilbuying and rely on, say generating gil solely by killing goblins can halt this already present cycle. By not supporting gilbuying and such practices, however, it can be hoped to once again slow the cycle of inflation (almost like how government bodies attempt to control inflation rate of RL currencies). I guess this is what I'm trying to convey. Feel free to disagree.

Addenum: SE have, in the past and likely in the future as well, attempted to reduce the total amount of gil in system, by both drastic measures (manual removal of ~1 billion gil per server assuming all servers are equal) as well as increased taxation. So yeah, they are trying, just not very hard, imo.

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#36 May 09 2006 at 5:00 AM Rating: Good
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I know that this part has been said but, I resent the implication that there is only one goal for playing FFXI: to level up and get as much XP/hour as you can. Personally, that's not my goal and I don't care to party with people who shout at me for having "sub-standard" gear (yes I wore the Cuir Set on my RDM until I got high enough to quest AF). I play for fun, as a diversion from life once in a while, not as a full-time, obsessive, maniacal mission as some people do. I just refuse to spend that much of my time on a game.

So, having said that I play for fun, here are some things about the game that I find distinctly NOT fun:

- crafting: it's stressful, time-consuming, expensive, boring, need I go on?

- camping NMs: ok, it could be fun, if not for the 30 other people camping the same one who do it full-time, so there's no chance in the world that a casual player like me could actually get a claim

- bad XP parties: this is probably controversial, since some people think that the under-equipped people like me are the ones that make XP parties bad. I think that what makes parties bad is pretentious players who can't abide a slow xp rate even if the party is engaging and fun, with good chat etc. If all you want is fast XP, you are missing the point of the game IMO.

For the record, here are some things that I genuinely enjoy:

- helping people (especially new players) get something new or learn something they didn't know

- skilling up or doing something else just as mundane... but on the condition that I do it with friends or LS mates or someone that I can have a good conversation with, not just doing it because I "need to."

- Quests: once again, with friends or LS mates, etc.

So, to conclude, I guess that I just feel this game is not really geared towards the casual player who just wants a good time, which is worsened by crippling prices at AH and high expectations from other players. It's hard to find a niche in this game without making it a full-time job (think about it: farming, crafting, XPing... you're just putting in the time on the clock so that you can buy something or get a new ability... it really is a job 90% of the time).

Thanks for reading. :-)
#37 May 09 2006 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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526 posts
Wow,

We haven't had a good debate on our forums in a long time. This is great to see everyone's views.

~Vas
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#38 May 09 2006 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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306 posts
Invisiblegod wrote:
I know that this part has been said but, I resent the implication that there is only one goal for playing FFXI: to level up and get as much XP/hour as you can. ... I play for fun, as a diversion from life once in a while, not as a full-time, obsessive, maniacal mission as some people do.


exactly, I play to have fun, and although i have opinions about gil buying, bad partys, needed gear, EXP/hour and all that, sometimes I wonder why we all talk so much about these topics. Sometimes I feel like I have to post and share my opinion and sometimes i feel like its a waste of time. No matter how much we all chat/flame/rant about this stuff, nothing seems to change one bit. People still buying gil, prices still going up and down, and an average 'pick up' party is still lucky if they can better than 5K/hour. And more often than not it turns to be a bitching match /shrugs meh.

I am glad this turned out to be a good thread though, least its better than the usual bitching and whatnot that we all read/contribute to, but really, why are we talking bout all this? lol, I think Ive lost sight of the thread here ... perhaps it was my not very much fun, barely 3K/hour party last night /sigh

Sorry if this post seems off OP topic or out of the blue, i stared at it for like 10mins deciding whether or not I should post it, I guess im just curious what you all view these threads as? Helpful? Venting? Fun to pass the work day by with?

Wiggins chat/flame/rant skill increases by 1 post >.<


EDIT: fixed the quote

Edited, Tue May 9 16:42:49 2006 by KPChief
#39 May 10 2006 at 8:42 AM Rating: Default
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66 posts
well heres's my stance - if you are so fantically opposed to power levelling and gifts from friends than i have no idea why you are on this board beacuse if yiu have looked just once at any of the posts advising people on the best way to equip their chars or checked on recipe or looked to find out how to complete a mission or quest then you are just as guilty of cheating as if you had been power levelled or been given something.

Maybe you havn't done that in which case hats off to you and full apologies up front but i bet you have which in my view makes you a hypocritical idiot for posting such utter garbage.

When are you guys gonna figure out that this is a game and not real life. How people choose to spend their money or play the game is their choice as it is yours. If you dont like it /blist and walk away its as simple as that.

Your moralistic hypocritical retarded BS is something I could really do without when I come on line for a few hours of play so guess what i would do
#40 May 10 2006 at 9:29 AM Rating: Default
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301 posts
I support gil buying, I also support gil selling. Neither of those actions affect me in any way.

It doesn't affect anybody, except other gil sellers. If you want to talk about inflation, that primarily stems from greed, a little from gil buying, but primarily greed. A majority of the items stayed within the rate of inflation anyhow, its the "uber" gears the skyrocketed. Some because they are no longer coffer drops (ie. Astral Rings), other's because they are now BCNM and not NM drops, and the rest because certain people do not want everyone to have the "uber" gears.

If you want the best gear, then go get it. You want the scorpion harness, hauby and the vermy cloak? craft them. I sure as hell will not pay 7 million for a vermillion cloak... but instead of whining and complaining and blaming everyone else.. i took up clothcraft. If some gil seller is constantly camping the nm that drops the gear you want and you are unable to beat him out solo, get some of your friends together and outnumber him. If, you do not wish to do this or cannot find enough people to completely outman the gil seller (after all, good help is hard to find nowadays, unless you fork over some large quantity of gil) then farm some other items and just purchase it.

This isn't real money that you are spending to buy these items, so what does it really matter?

Play the game and have fun... Vana'diel is not real, it is a virtual world for people to have fun in. I fail to see how someone selling an item to obtain gil, then selling that gil for real money in any way affects anybody personally.

...or is most of the hatred stemming from the fact that you now have a tough foe for competition of an nm... and you would rather it be easy like the good ole days?

There will be these types of people in EVERY single MMO that will ever be created.

Let it go, enjoy yourselves and have a good time with friends, that's what this game is about anyways.

/em waits for the sub default rating :-)
____________________________
You're right, actually. I am pretty- I'm, I'm pretty troubled and I'm, I'm pretty confused. But I... and I'm afraid. Really, really afraid. Really afraid. But I... I... I think you're the f^cking Antichrist.

~~Yokiko~~
#41 May 10 2006 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
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306 posts
borntolandhard wrote:

I support gil buying, I also support gil selling. Neither of those actions affect me in any way.


I'm not touching this, ill leave it for someone with more 'word skill' than myself ... or perhaps more paitience<sp?>, anyways ...

borntolandhard wrote:

If you want the best gear, then go get it. You want the scorpion harness, hauby and the vermy cloak? craft them. I sure as hell will not pay 7 million for a vermillion cloak... but instead of whining and complaining and blaming everyone else.. i took up clothcraft.


So, for example, I'm supposed to spend about 2M ish getting smithing up to the appropriate level to synth myself a hauby for which the main ingrediant costs more than the finish product instead of just farming for the guy to buy it ... hmmm. Perhaps im misunderstanding your point here?

borntolandhard wrote:

If some gil seller is constantly camping the nm that drops the gear you want and you are unable to beat him out solo, get some of your friends together and outnumber him.


agreed. this is a very good sugestion and is exactly how i got my O Kote.

borntolandhard wrote:

If, you do not wish to do this or cannot find enough people to completely outman the gil seller (after all, good help is hard to find nowadays, unless you fork over some large quantity of gil) then farm some other items and just purchase it.


also agreed. This is what we all pretty much tell people anyways, to which usually their biggest bitch is 'its too much time'. If the best things in the game were free/easy to get, we would all be decked out in gear and then what would be the point? People are too lazy to spend the time to farm up the gil or camp the NM or whatever, so they just buy it from IGE or whoever. Hence the 'gil buying problem', and I fail to see how you fail to see how gil buying/selling affects you ... but like I said, Im not touching that one.

borntolandhard wrote:

There will be these types of people in EVERY single MMO that will ever be created.


/nod yep, thats the sad truth. In RL and in game >.>
#42 May 10 2006 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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2,038 posts
KPChief wrote:

borntolandhard wrote:

There will be these types of people in EVERY single MMO that will ever be created.


/nod yep, thats the sad truth. In RL and in game >.>


Yep, there are always people that suck. The real tragedy is those people think getting good gear will make them not suck when they really just need to learn how to play.
#43 May 10 2006 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
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306 posts
bleach wrote:

Yep, there are always people that suck. The real tragedy is those people think getting good gear will make them not suck when they really just need to learn how to play.


LOL, mmhhmmm. I have a feeling these might be the same people buying Leather Vest +1's for like 50K /sigh
#44 May 10 2006 at 11:27 AM Rating: Default
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301 posts
Quote:
So, for example, I'm supposed to spend about 2M ish getting smithing up to the appropriate level to synth myself a hauby for which the main ingrediant costs more than the finish product instead of just farming for the guy to buy it ... hmmm. Perhaps im misunderstanding your point here?



The thing with that is.... yes you will spend xmillion getting to that level... but it pays off. I'll prob spend a few mill getting my clothcraft to 80+... but hey.. once its there i can make many Vermillion cloaks and sell em to people who are willing to buy :-)

My point is... a lot of people are too lazy or don't have the time to take up crafting to get it high enough for the good gears.. so they buy it... and when the price raises.. they just complain. The price could raise 30X and people will still rather fork over gil than take the craft up.

I probaly came off like a huge prick.. but ah well. I spose that's the way i am.. I'm a realist and do not have any sympathy for people who constantly complain about gil selling and buying and how its the root of the economy and the root of most evil in the game. People need to get off their butts and just do what needs to get done.

I don't blame people for not wanting to craft... nor do i blame people who don't have the leisure time to craft. The people who whine and groan about prices... yet have time to craft and farm.. but dont.. are the people i despise.


Alright.. i made default rating... come on people.. i know i pissed more of you off. i don't know if it's sad or funny that you get rated down for only being derrogatory against lazy people. Or perhaps it was because i had a different opinion... either way keep the hate flowing, truth hurts doesnt it? :-)

Edited, Wed May 10 18:43:09 2006 by borntolandhard
____________________________
You're right, actually. I am pretty- I'm, I'm pretty troubled and I'm, I'm pretty confused. But I... and I'm afraid. Really, really afraid. Really afraid. But I... I... I think you're the f^cking Antichrist.

~~Yokiko~~
#45 May 10 2006 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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306 posts
borntolandhard wrote:


The thing with that is.... yes you will spend xmillion getting to that level... but it pays off. I'll prob spend a few mill getting my clothcraft to 80+... but hey.. once its there i can make many Vermillion cloaks and sell em to people who are willing to buy :-)


ahhh see, i did misunderstand your point.


borntolandhard wrote:

I don't blame people for not wanting to craft... nor do i blame people who don't have the leisure time to craft. The people who whine and groan about prices... yet have time to craft and farm.. but dont.. are the people i despise.


100% agree. Im racist against lazy people as well.
#46 May 11 2006 at 1:03 AM Rating: Decent
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746 posts
Quote:
I support gil buying, I also support gil selling. Neither of those actions affect me in any way.

It doesn't affect anybody, except other gil sellers.



First of all, let me say that I completely agree with your attitude regarading gaining items. However, I cannot agree with your stance that gil trading do not affect you in anyway.

In my opinion, gil trading effect the environment which the game inhabit. A wiser man once said that no man is an island, and that is true in real life or one created by imagination. Economy fluctuate, and that effects everyone within that economy.

As an example, if you, say, lived in the 50', and work hard to support yourself/family. Your annual income is, let us assume, 1000 dollars (pulling that number out of my ass). Now, if you chose to ignore the rest of the economy, and continue to be satisfied with 1000 dollars that you earn/saved, pretty soon, the value of what you work so hard toward becomes much less than before. In my opinion, this is the inflation phenomenon that is accelerated by the gil trading process.

That being said, I do hope more people will take up your advice. That would really make Remora a happier place.
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#47 May 11 2006 at 3:17 AM Rating: Decent
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68 posts
to the OP...


GTFO Gilgamesh

even though the OP may have been transplanted
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Having a image or text of 1337 items makes you cool...
#48 May 11 2006 at 8:55 AM Rating: Decent
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301 posts
Quote:
In my opinion, this is the inflation phenomenon that is accelerated by the gil trading process.


I enjyed your wording. Accelerated. That's exactly what it was.. just a small catalyst. RMT's do not necessarily inflate the economy. Ignorant, greedy people do. I still see countless people spending 1-2k on LV1 gears @ AH, when the exact same gears are sold 45 seconds away in the weapons/armor shop for 1/5 the price.

This is my outlook, and i could be completely wrong...

ItemA has a constant 3k price history.
ItemA is down to 0 in stock @ Auction House
PlayerA places ItemA @ AH for 4k, because his is the only one up, and if people want it right then and there.. they have to pay the 4k.
PlayerB buys ItemA for 4k
PlayerA places ItemA @ Ah again for 4k, since the only one up (his) just sold.
PlayerC buys ItemA for 4k
PlayerD just got back from farming and wants to sell his unwanted ItemA. He checks the price history and sees the last two sold for 4k.
PlayerD places the item up for 4k.
PlayerE, F, G, H, I, J, K, L all get back from farming and put their ItemA up at the auction house as well.
PlayerE, F, G, H and I all place their ItemA for 3k, while J, K and L place for 4k (because they seen that 2 or 3 recently sold at that price).
PlayerM is completely retarded and never underbids the current history.
PlayerM purchases PlayerE's ItemA for 4k


the trend continues.

Confusing? i'm sure it became a headache to read after aboutt he 4th line haha. That's primarily how this works.

RMT's do have a hand in inflating the economy, after all they are making gil more easily accessible to people. At the same time though, greedy, ignorant, lazy people make up the biggest portion of the pie when it comes to inflation.


And to be honest, the only reason I support gil buying/ gil selling is because it is not harming you or I and it can never be stopped. I don't agree with it. It is against the Terms of Service laid out by Square-Enix and they should be punished SOLELY on the fact they are going against the ToS, not because it is RMT.

I should prob cut back on this post before I make too many enemies and fan't find a party when i seek lol

Edited, Thu May 11 09:57:30 2006 by borntolandhard

Edited, Thu May 11 10:04:41 2006 by borntolandhard
____________________________
You're right, actually. I am pretty- I'm, I'm pretty troubled and I'm, I'm pretty confused. But I... and I'm afraid. Really, really afraid. Really afraid. But I... I... I think you're the f^cking Antichrist.

~~Yokiko~~
#49 May 11 2006 at 7:36 PM Rating: Decent
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71 posts
honestly, i get sick and tired of everyone blaming gilsellers/buyers or whatever for ruining the game. ffxi was ruined when they made it. SE made this game, as they did with other FF titles, to have two sets of players - lower tier and upper tier.

lower tier players are going to be those players, like myself who won't be getting a bunch of +1 items or those hard to get armors and weapons.

upper tier players are going to be those individuals who will have the better armor, weapons, foods and so on. they're the ones who spend their lives on ffxi.

the problem is that if you're a lower tier player, you WILL be penalized for it. SE penalizes lower tier players by making them almost impossible to perform. by them penalizing you, you in turn penalize other players with horrible performance.

now im a mnk, i know about performing horribly. it sucks to miss a VT 5 times in a row because you don't have that +1 with a little bit of extra acc. been there, done that.

but you're told to go buy sushi. ok let's go buy sushi. 60-90k a stack depending on when you catch it. ouch pockets are kinda light now.

well go farm some stuff. ok sure. let's do rolanberry, get beehive chips, silk thread, and maybe a few tree cuttings. 50 mobs later, you've got 10 beehive chips, 2 silk thread and a dahlia! hmmm, what to do with that?

go do a bcnm or something. you can probably make a few million. good idea. let's do a bcnm. ok bcnm done! we netted 200k in items. woooooo. let's go do it again.

let's go buy some food cuz i want to hit more often, well i want to hit period. 90k for sushi? wtf? don't buy it at that price. get someone to make it for you. what are the materials? well you need this and that and you get it from here and there. ok. so materials cost 50k and you gotta pay the cook so you're back up to 60k and the cook keeps all HQ. lol. or you can spend 5 hours fishing and farming the items yourself. yeah good luck wit that. let's just pay the 90k. 30-40k difference saves me 5 hours of doing nothing productive with my job.

you should try to get better armor and weapons. you can always camp an NM. hmmm interesting. im level39. i wanna go camp poisonhand for my.... jujitsu gi. get to bridge area, aggro, try to fight and die. wooo i need help. 2 hours building a party to fight poisonhand. can we even do it at this level? let's try. 4 hours waiting for poisonhand to pop. Poisonhand #1 - no drop. Poisonhand #2 - no drop. Poisonhand #3 - outclaimed. 3 days later Poisonhand #4 - outbid for jujitsu gi. /SIGH. forget it then. i do without.

get into party. pop food. hit hit miss miss hit. /sigh. dude you're not hitting enough. are you using meat? no im using sushi. 5 examinations. dude you need better armor. been trying to get better everything for 3 weeks now.

im tired of NOT being able to play my job and even when i do get to play it, it doesn't even go well. i spend more time NOT playing my job than i do playing it. i paid to play my game. i didn't pay for a friggin chatroom while i do NOT play my character. forget this.

Option A
Continue leeching as much xp as you can. hopefully they will just deal with it since there's no one else seeking anyway.

Option B
/logout. buy gil. buy upgrades. get into party. steal hate with almost every hit. tank vokes. a lotta good that will do you tank. im upper tier now!

basically, this is what you call.. FUTILITY. you try and try and sooner or later you get to a point where everything you've done is one large waste of time. you're barely or no better off than when you started.

so is it an issue of buyin/selling gil or is it an issue of SE making things difficult for the little guy. do you think tree cuttings would cost 20k each if they dropped every time? do you think all those multi-million gil items would be so high priced if they dropped off of bcnms that you could probably solo like say a maat fight?

the point of it all is that if items were obtainable in a better, not easier, but a better way, gilsellers wouldn't even be a real factor.

need juji gi? do bcnm20. it's solo, you'll need a few hi-pots but you can do it.

oh what's that you want to make some sushi. no problem. you're gon have to level up your fishing a little bit but here's the right combo of rod and bait... oh wait it's already like that. hmmm.

want lu shangs rod. how bout a fishing bcnm!?!? you toss your orb in, equip the rod and bait provided and you've got 15 min to pull up a legendary pugil and then defeat it. sounds easy. yeah that screwdriver will oneshot u.

at the end of it all, the way i see it, as long as there's this system of haves and have-nots, people are going to look for ways to get what they want. that includes people who want real money. they see the holes that ffxi created and they seek to exploit them. unless SE does something to correct the futility, gilselling and gilbuying will NEVER go away no matter what they do. it's all tied into botting and any other kind of cheating that exists. people want to PLAY their games, not WORK to play! someone's already WORKED to pay for the game. they deserve to have their playing time maximized.
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#50 May 12 2006 at 12:16 AM Rating: Decent
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746 posts
Forgive me for my presumptions, but I think you got your priorities somewhat reversed for this game.

From my point of view, I play for fun. I play to do things with people I like. The downside of that is that I have to occasionally exp to get to do what I want to do. I farm for gear not for the pure fact of having the gear, but rather to allow myself to be able to stand up to the challange.

I can empasize with your frustration of not having enough gil, but there are many different ways of making gil. Instead of farming all the time, garden. Instead of selling what you get right away, craft and get a better profit margin. In fact, I am fairly sure I made gil skilling up cooking and alchemy to 60. On top of that, why farming in rolenberry where a level 39 monk can barely kill the mobs? Farm in lowbie zones where you can sub /thf and kill very rapidly. Even go mining, or harvesting or cut some wood. People tend to do what everyone else is doing for gil. While this is a fairly complicated economy, no one person can completely hog the basic crafting materials. Watch the AH, figure out what materials are high demand, and then find a way to do that.

Farm smart, and that will net you alot of gil.


PS: Yokiko, I agree with your view of how AH price goes up. At the same time though, you kinda have to think, well, once people who watch the AH realized that the item that can be bought from NPC can now be sold for a fair profit margin, they can start playing the AH. The item get swarmed, the people start undercutting others, leading to a fall of pricing as well.

But I guess the economy of Remora is rather complicated to be dissected in this thread by amature analysts. Still, I would feel that much better when that catalyst that is RMT is removed from the game.
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Main: Pld73/War36/Nin37
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Craft: Cooking 60.0; Alchemy 60.0; Goldsmithing: 50.3
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#51 May 12 2006 at 12:20 AM Rating: Decent
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2,038 posts
dabuddaman wrote:

But I guess the economy of Remora is rather complicated to be dissected in this thread by amature analysts. Still, I would feel that much better when that catalyst that is RMT is removed from the game.


RMT will only go away when people stop thinking good gear is going to make them good players.

I did sacrium tonight.. butt naked.. and I still owned.

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