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#1 Feb 16 2009 at 2:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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With more and more new dynamis shells popping up (and some of them not looking into the state of scheduling), I'm getting an overwhelming sense of things starting to go bad with the congenial state of dynamis scheduling on the Seraph server--especially for the busiest night of the week, Monday.

This is especially important as some of the newer shells are "Northlands Only" shells which put a strain on the already tight scheduling on busy nights where up to 8 shells are trying to accomodate the needs of their members (this doesn't factor in the pickup shouts and groups).

What this has resulted in is a scheduling war with each shell trying to post their schedule earlier and earlier to try and get the dibs on the best zones. What it is leading to is posting 6-9mo in advance, which to me seems somewhat excessive.

I was wondering what the general dynamis community thinks about this. I'd hate to see the good atmosphere we have on Seraph degenerate into /tell screaming matches and lots of angry dynamisers. As far as I can see the only real solution is to instance dynamis, but until that time comes I'd like some input from those that schedule dynamis:


-What is a reasonable amount of time you can schedule something in advance and expect it to be honored?


Prior to the decrease in dynamis costs and the influx of dynamis groups, most shells seemed to post between 2wk and 1mo in advance. I know the system isn't perfect (we've had zones overscheduled --which has always been worked out by responsible leaders -- and "stolen" by pickup/random groups (mostly xarcabard)). I think realistically, scheduling huge chunks of time doesn't solve the problem. If people won't work with you and overschedule your zone when you have it posted for 1mo in advance, why would they work with you if you have it posted 6mo in advance? How do you guys feel?






Edited, Feb 16th 2009 5:31pm by Chiyaura

Edited, Feb 16th 2009 6:24pm by Chiyaura
#2 Feb 16 2009 at 8:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Traditionally most shells have never posted beyond 3 months in advance. I think back when dyna shells were in their height of the event before ToAU I'm sure it was around 3 months at the max. maybe 4 for those super competitive types with busy nights.

I'd honor a schedule up to 3 months in advance. Maybe 4, maybe. Specially for a night like monday. But if you have shells who's schedules read: monday: xarc thursday: glacier for the next 6 months, that's just dumb. Out of 6 main dynamis zones, to put 2 of them for more than 50% of a schedule is rediculous and I wouldn't expect anyone to honor any such schedule past 1 month in advance. Like, I could see a vet shell saying 'hey our bank is at 30 million lets do all COP and Northland runs this month, and then cut back a bit but still run heavy on those zones next month too', then yeah, I could see that being cool. Not for a new shell who just jumped onto a night that already has more shells than there are normal zones to hold them.

Ya know what though, if their common sense didn't click to tell them monday is too busy, then you're probably not going to change their minds, its unfortunate but try to set up a system maybe? If my shell was running on monday I'd be trying to negotiate and crunch some numbers, and find out what would be fair for everyone, so no one has to skip out. Most likely though, any 'northlands only' shell is going to want to do a xarc or glacier on monday, which is dumb if there's like more than 2 northlands only shells on mondays...can't just hog northlands every single monday and leave the other days up for dibs to other shells, that's not the spirit of what dyna shell leaders have been doing for years, which is working out schedule conflicts, trading zones on occasion, etc. all to make sure everyone gets a chance to hit the zones they want to hit that month, for clears or gear or w/e.

Whatever the solution, the key is communication. If these new shells aren't willing to speak up on alla/KI/BG to let the seraph community know they are joining in on mondays, then there's no hope for working any kind of plan out. So yeah, whatever the solution is, if they just start doing runs without telling anyone and not talking with anyone else then give them all the attention they are asking for: none, and don't respect the schedule. o.O If they want their schedules respected they have to be reasonable about it and have to be flexible, which goes the same for the older shells as well. For the sake of not having aneurysms every dynamis night trying to shove your members into the zone 30 minutes early, or shells putting 5 people in a zone 30 mins early just to be ******** because they know they scheduled the zone after someone else or w/e...
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#3 Feb 16 2009 at 8:40 PM Rating: Good
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The Tuesday night groups have always had a pecking order, based on the order our shells were established. Noseph waits til Dynacore and BtL Saturdays picks a schedule, and everyone else waits til after we're done. In exchange, each of the shells takes care to not pile on 2-3 Xarcs. (Since both NoSeph and Dynacore are upgrading shells, we're gonna do a round of cities each month, and usually stick to one Xarc/Glacier apiece.)

I think one month is the absolute max a schedule ought to be honored. If you're claiming Xarcabards all the way in May and June, then you're being greedy, plain and simple.

I'm done with my Xarc gear, but there's a huge backlog in my linkshell for items like RDM and BLM hats because the stupid things don't drop often enough. Stealing the zone from my shell is stealing potential drops from my members, and you can bet I'll holler like a banshee about it (cuz I've done it before.)

Pickup groups have every right to go in, but they also need to be respectful of the schedule as its posted. I have a sticky indexed at the top of this forum to facilitate scheduling, and I considered making a Google Documents schedule. If all the LS leaders got onto Google Docs and made a calendar there, then we could see each other's zone plans before people started piling up in front of the Trail Markings, and resolve issues before they got too far.

The final arbiter should always be a random between leaders, when overschedule accidents happen. Anyone who doesn't respect the random shouldn't be running a linkshell, period.
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#4 Feb 23 2009 at 10:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Just to toss in my 2 cents.

I have often seen people in Whitegate shouting for Dynamis runs. These linkshell leaders clearly have no interest in going by any sort of rules or regulations that is being established by the bigger, better Dynamis linkshells. While we are very good at interacting with each other and putting together a schedule in a respectful manner, there will be others who will jump into zones because they can.

The respectful manner that NoSeph, Dynacore and BtL can be used as a guideline for those shells on Mondays. Think of it as a first come, first served basis that is used in every day life. Posting a month and a half in advance is enough time for the smaller shells to set their schedule for their members. Maybe some of the newer, smaller shells need to be folding into the bigger, established shells. The draw of upgraded weapons might be too great for players to give up collecting Dynamis money.

If there is any hope to curtail this lawlessness of a select few, then simply make it well known that the offenders will be added to a black list in all Dynamis forms and members of those Dynamis shells will not participate in any in game activities with those on the black list. Overblown? Probably but since SE will not get involved in this situation, then Dynamis leaders with the respect of their members need to follow through on this just to keep the majority of the people happy.
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#5 Feb 23 2009 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Allow me a moment to give a brief synopsis of a differing opinion.




Who cares?

Read it again.

There. I said it. If you are all getting that ****** that someone stole your spot I have a 2nd grade teacher that would like to give you a hug, a grape drink, and to tell you it will be ok.

All you ever see in this forum is how one person wronged another. They do it all the time. You can either accept it, fight it, or fuck it. Why get so worked up over the whole thing? Is it because Player X took the zone from every one else? Of course it is. But his actions are out of your control.

Calling out everyone who wronged you is just foolish. You look like a child when you whine. Granted, it doesn't make the other person any less a **** but I mean come on. If you are really that upset about it then /blist the player and move on.

SE has always lived by the rule: Yellow is fair game. The EXACT SAME THING applies to dynamis. They beat you. Move or go do something else. I can tell ya that you ain't going in right now. It would be asinine to think that your whining is suddenly going to make everyone that spent just as much time as you getting ready and entering (and in some cases spending gil) to just up and leave to appease you.

I mean it's not like stole a 30m KClub from you and then **** on you all over a forum to make themselves look that much cooler now is it?
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#6 Feb 23 2009 at 6:06 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Allow me a moment to give a brief synopsis of a differing opinion.




Who cares?

Read it again.

There. I said it. If you are all getting that ****** that someone stole your spot I have a 2nd grade teacher that would like to give you a hug, a grape drink, and to tell you it will be ok.

All you ever see in this forum is how one person wronged another. They do it all the time. You can either accept it, fight it, or **** it. Why get so worked up over the whole thing? Is it because Player X took the zone from every one else? Of course it is. But his actions are out of your control.

Calling out everyone who wronged you is just foolish. You look like a child when you whine. Granted, it doesn't make the other person any less a Richard but I mean come on. If you are really that upset about it then /blist the player and move on.

SE has always lived by the rule: Yellow is fair game. The EXACT SAME THING applies to dynamis. They beat you. Move or go do something else. I can tell ya that you ain't going in right now. It would be asinine to think that your whining is suddenly going to make everyone that spent just as much time as you getting ready and entering (and in some cases spending gil) to just up and leave to appease you.

I mean it's not like stole a 30m KClub from you and then sh*t on you all over a forum to make themselves look that much cooler now is it?



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#7 Feb 23 2009 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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Well,

There are always 2 sides to any debate. What I find interesting, not just in this dyna situation but in other things in-game, is how attitudes and demeanor in game pattern those we see in RL day-to-day. As time goes on we see more selfishness in people. What I like to classify as a hurray-for-me-and-ta-****-with-you attitude.

Some of us saw this coming, but more to the point, the true question that needs answered here is what is the best way to deal with it?

First off...who cares? Each and every one of us should care. This is not just a game related issue. It is a people related issue, and it is sad to see people treating others like their personal floormat by not respecting them in the very least. Our forefathers said it best... don't tread on me.

Why would anyone in their right mind think that the "rights" of 6-12 people would be greater than the rights of a group of potentially 64 others? Just because you have a ***** doesn't mean it's ok to go rape others. Doesn't seem to take a math major to figure that one out.

OK, so the choice is to accept it, "fight it or f--- it?" Well, accepting someone else stepping all over you doesn't really sit well with me and it shouldn't sit well with anyone else either, I mean..why would it? And f--- it seems to be in that same vein which leaves us with fighting it. OK, sounds fun.

But what methods do any of us really have in game to dissuade others from walking on us? The MPK patch and all those pesky rules kinda put a damper on that. What way does anyone really have to "fight" anything along these lines?

You do make a good point on "yellow is fair game". regardless of the moral side of all of this.

A blacklist, or even better, a public list of players that don't care about any one but themselves(because they approve of zone ganking by walking past a ready group and participating) seems to be the only means available to try to "fight" this.

/blist may be a part of this. I can personally vouch for the improvement in my gameplay that I have enjoyed by /blisting a select few asshats. Pareto had it going on, the minority of the players seem to cause the majority of the issues.

I have an idea of how to help minimize zone ganking and it is as simple as just leaving exactly on time. It is far too easy to schedule an event, and then delay the start by 5, 10, 60 minutes. The whole time leaving that zone open for the taking. It isn't easy to get peeps to start on time, and would have to be just as hard for a "pick-up" group to do the same. Sure... the first few times you leave on time, every person that comes in late will be like "wah", but pretty soon they will learn that 4pm means 4pm (or whatever the start time is) and will learn to be on time.

SE has said that instancing dyna isn't really in the works. I can't think of a better way that works within the framework of what we all have to play with here, can you? But just accepting it isn't the answer.


Just remember, you can not make anything idiot-proof. Just when you think you have, 2 idiots will put their heads together and figure out a way around it.
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#8 Feb 23 2009 at 9:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Yellow is fair game until the botters show up.

Whether it's rules that SE themselves established, or rules that the community establishes, breaking them still hurts people.

We can choose to work within the ****** system that SE gave us, which is why all the schedules we make have tried to do, or we can step all over each other, **** each other off, and end up giving someone a heart attack eventually.

It's like a third party moving into the bird camps. Sure, you have every right to take those yellow birds. But your exp is going to be crap, and you ruined the exp of another 12 people by doing so. Yeah yeah maybe one of the other parties doesn't have a bard and will eventually give up and warp out, but it still means you're a class A jerk for doing it. (And if I'm your bard and you ask me to overcamp someone at birds, I'm teleporting out. Too much stress for me.)
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#9 Feb 24 2009 at 6:04 AM Rating: Default
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Fine. Happy?

Edited, Feb 24th 2009 4:00pm by Senjiow
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#10 Feb 24 2009 at 6:47 AM Rating: Good
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I think you totally missed the point of the post. There was no ******** about people stealing zones or w/e. It was someone seeking a solution between established LSs. The OP even specifically said this isn't even about Pick up groups. There was a concern about established LSs posting schedules 6 months in advance.

So please tell me where "we all got ****** someone stole our zone" in this thread.

I think the best part of this all though, is "who cares". If that's honestly how you felt, you wouldn't be responding to the thread at all. LS leaders have to care about this, because they have a responsibility to 40+ people who all get worked up and send us a barrage of tells lol. Im not quite sure why you care about this thread though D:
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#11 Feb 24 2009 at 6:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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lol Eurell is right. No one stole any zones and this isn't about stealing zones, it's about how to effectively schedule and how many months in advance it is appropriate to post a schedule D: No one is whining and I know that we all have to deal with the system that SE puts forth.

And I thank the dynamis linkshell leaders for their input--we've always thought that 1-1.5mo is also pretty appropriate, but that 6-9mo isn't really helpful. Just wanted to make sure this isn't something that is generally well established for other busy dynamis days :P



Edited, Feb 24th 2009 9:54am by Chiyaura
#12 Feb 24 2009 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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Scheduling more than 3 or 4 months ahead for dynamis is like when little kids are having that little war 'I HATE YOU'. 'I HATE YOU TIMES 10'. I HATE YOU TIMES 50! I HATE YOU TIMES 100, 80, 700 20,000 and 2! I HATE YOU TIMES INFINITY! I HATE YOU TIMES INFINITY +100!

I mean, ya know...just trying to sit there and 1-up the next guy just to win, with no real point and the whole thing is just kinda stupid...cept u do get to make up numbers, that can be good for the imagination. XD;
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#13 Mar 04 2009 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
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I was wondering if there's dynamis shells that go Thursday and Sunday at around 8 pm. I'd like to see their schedules and plan around it if I can.
#14 Mar 04 2009 at 11:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Right now there are no shells that run both Thursday and sunday that I know of. The shell I'm in (Dynasty) is/was suppose to be doing thursdays but attendance and such we're just on sundays for now.

Catwho's sticky is fairly accurate.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=55;mid=1217868329216861083;num=39;page=1
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#15 Mar 07 2009 at 6:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think the key to this discussion is not "why must we do this," but rather, "why SHOULD we do this?" Due to the influx of new shells and pickup groups brought on at least in part by the drop in entrance fee, the Dynamis situation on our server is in danger of becoming somewhat of a free-for-all.

Of course we don't have to go through the trouble of adhering to schedules and self-imposed rules, but isn't it so much better for everyone if we just agree to cooperate? No one is saying that any one linkshell be given priority over another. What many of the Dynamis leaders are trying to accomplish is an end state which is relatively free of drama.

Does this mean that if we abide by the self imposed rules that everything will always be perfect? No. However, I think our server is above the recent selfishness and squabbling over this endgame event. We can either adapt, or we can give up and be devolve into chaos.

Maybe I'm being overly naive. Either way, I hope the leaders of the linkshells at least attempt to bring fair play into the scheduling process.

Edited, Mar 7th 2009 11:37am by Justiceblade
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