idiggory the Fussy wrote:
Okay, I'm going to make this simple.
The world isn't simple though. Hence, the problem.
There is literally NEVER a situation in which it is not rape if a woman tells you no.
Except, say, when these are two fantasy characters being played by actors, and the director says "she says no, but she actually does want to have sex with him". Please tell me that you get that in this case we can actually know for 100% sure that "no means yes" in this case because it's a character and not a real person?
Whether or not she wants it is actually not the point at all. Women can choose to have sex without wanting it, and women can choose not to have sex when they want it.
So not so simple, huh? I agree that in the real world, the man cannot know for 100% sure, so he should always err on the side of "assume she means no" even if the last 100 times she said no she actually did want it, said she wanted it after he stopped when she said no, and was upset with him for not getting her hints that she did all the while (cause this like never happens, right?). But in a world where these are characters and the director/writer actually can say "she really means yes"? Same rules do not apply.
Rape is the decision to ignore someone's decision regarding their own body. It doesn't matter if there was no sign of sexual desire, it doesn't matter if there was blatant sexual desire, it doesn't matter if there's a pre-existing sexual history, it doesn't matter if they are in or out of a relationship, it doesn't matter if the sexual desire was secret, or if it did not exist, etc.
That's about the most meaningless thing I've read on this forum (recently at least). So it doesn't matter if there is "blatant sexual desire". WTF? I thought it was about what she said? So now you're saying even if the woman is grinding up against her partner, saying "oh baby take me hard", he's supposed to magically know what her real decision is? That's insane.
Rape is when you force someone to have sex with you despite them clearly informing you (via any reasonable means) that they don't want to. It's not about what she wants, but what she says and does. Here's the problem though. It has to be about the message she's sending. And in a normal case, we can assume that saying no is sufficient to inform him that she doesn't want to have sex. But I disagree with the sexual history bit. If they have a long history of her playing a game where she says no intentionally to get him to be more forceful with her (again, sick relationship, so whatever), then what is she telling him? Not "I don't want to have sex with you", right?
Recall that in the first season of the damn show, there's a scene where Jamie make an amorous move towards Cersei and she pushes him away and says no. He gets a frustrated look on his face like "not this game again". Like I said earlier, they've indicated previously that this is "normal" for their relationship. She "refused him" before he was gone for so long, and before he lost his hand. And it was clear that this was part of their game. Again, that makes people uncomfortable, but that's the point. This isn't the real world and these are not "normal" people.
If someone tells you no, and you force the issue, you are RAPING THEM.
Sure. But when Cersei says "no" to Jamie, there's a strong indication that both of them know that she's not actually telling him she doesn't want to have sex with him. We can debate whether this constitutes rape or not (I suppose we are), but it's clearly part of their characters relationship and it should be treated within that context. No one is at all implying that what these two do is normal behavior, nor that anyone should be emulating them.
I just find that the real world desire to treat women as eternal victims is not really well placed here.
There is literally no situation in which this is not the case. Consent has nothing to do with sexual desire; it's about a person's decision about whether or not to partake in sexual activity. I could want someone with every fiber of my being and still say no. I could be disgusted by them and say yes.
Sure. And in a relationship where I don't know what you really want, I have to go by what you say. That's the whole point of "no means no", right? I'm arguing that with these two, that isn't the case.
But there's no such thing as consensual sex that begins with a "no."
Wrong. Sorry. Not sure how much more clearly to say it. I have personally (twice with two different women) been in a situation where the woman said "no" and I stopped, only to have the woman complain that I stopped and insist that I should have known what she really wanted. I'm not making this up. I literally had one woman tell me, and this is a direct quote: "You should know that when I pull away from you, that I want you to chase me". This after we'd been making out on a couch and she kept pulling away from me, so I'd stop. She'd re-initiate making out, only to do it again. Finally, she literally jumped up, said "no" and ran across the damn room from me. When I asked her what she was doing, she responded with that exact line. I'll never forget it.
I'm sorry, but women do incredibly stupid things (men do too, of course). I fully accept (and have always followed) the rule that when a woman says no (or even just indicates it in some way) that the man should stop. But let's not pretend that this remotely follows from any kind of fact that women actually always tell men exactly what the hell they want. The sad fact is that women actually do say "no" when they mean "yes". All. The. Damn. Time.
Want to address social effects on rape? Have feminists actually get women to stop doing this. Would do more to prevent date rape than anything else that could be imagined. Sadly though, most feminists care more about demonizing men than actually reducing the number of sexual assaults suffered by women.
And in this case? I'm perfectly ok with accepting that in this complete fantasy world that we're watching, Jamie knows better than some uptight feminist how his sister/lover behaves and what she wants. It's not remotely so simple and clear in the real world, so how about we not project that imaginary simplicity onto a fantasy one? Edited, Apr 23rd 2014 7:00pm by gbaji