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The WolverineFollow

#52 Aug 06 2013 at 11:29 PM Rating: Good
Alma wrote:

I know that they aren't independent, but if you watch them altogether, you have to ignore certain parts of the other movies. Only the first three movies are truly dependent. In any case, I prefer Origins over the last Wolverine movie.


Seriously? If that's the truth I don't think anyone, anywhere, should ever give two ***** about what you think about anything ever again as your taste in movies is really THAT bad.
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#53 Aug 07 2013 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
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Reboots are typically about new artistic direction from the ground-up.

It doesn't need a new storyline across the board, particularly not when you're intending to reboot a series, but it needs to be distinct and new.

In the context of Spider-Man, you could take the classic X-Men origin, but use that to expand into new areas of the series. The school and the core members of Storm/Cyclops/Wolverine/Marvel Girl, etc, probably won't change drastically. But there are so many story lines you can expand into by laying different framework.

The first X-Men movie focused on the Mutant Registration Act and had Magneto launching an assault on world leaders (pretty average, generic X-Men story, tbh).

Well, you reboot the series by putting the initial focus on the Sentinels, launched in reaction to Magneto's terrorism. You still have the origin story, but the launching points for the plot are all different.

It's the same idea with the Spider-Man reboot. Peter Parker still gets bitten by a spider in a laboratory doing genetic testing. He's still a photographer. He's still a smart, nerdy type. He still lives with his Aunt May and Uncle Ben in Brooklyn. He's still in high school.

But instead of Mary Jane, college, and the Green Goblin, we get Gwen Stacy, the Lizard, Oscorp as a giant malevolent mega-corp, and (possibly most importantly), the story of the city and its leadership's evolving feelings about Spidey.

There are so many ways you can tell these stories, because of the nature of the comic world. A reboot just means opening different doors than the original did.
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#54 Aug 07 2013 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the point of a reboot is that the events which occurred in the previous film(s) don't exist. Never happened. The new Spider Man isn't a continuation of the earlier films. It's a completely new series with no connection to the previous films. Batman Begins was not a continuation of the older Batman films either. Completely different storyline. The two Hulk films are not continuations either. The second is a reboot of the first. That's the point of a reboot. It's not about storyline changes within the story itself, but an external change from a film/studio point of view.

It doesn't look like they're doing that in this case. The next film, because of the time travel elements, may change some things, but it's clearly intended to exist within the same storyline. So not a reboot IMO.
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#55 Aug 07 2013 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Alma wrote:

I know that they aren't independent, but if you watch them altogether, you have to ignore certain parts of the other movies. Only the first three movies are truly dependent. In any case, I prefer Origins over the last Wolverine movie.


Seriously? If that's the truth I don't think anyone, anywhere, should ever give two sh*ts about what you think about anything ever again as your taste in movies is really THAT bad.


If you liked either of them even the slightest bit, you should be ****** and murdered by a sentient cactus.

Can I say that in this forum? Cactus?
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#56 Aug 07 2013 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
Both movies certainly include a couple entertaining parts (WW II flashback/Origin stuff in XO: Wolverine, WW II flashback/Yukio in The Wolverine) but as a whole?

Origins is a steaming pile of **** while the Wolverine was a pile of **** at room temperature.
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#57 Aug 08 2013 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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DC reboots, Marvel renumbers.
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#58 Aug 11 2013 at 9:43 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
I suppose the test will be whether they continue with future movies going forward time wise from the "current" time (ie: after Last Stand), or if they go back to an earlier point of time and re-tell the story.


That too, but the real test would be if it followed the actual story line or not. If the new movie is just random stuff that really never happened and/or the same events, but better, then it's a reboot. I understand your logic on the definition of "reboot" and you are correct. However, when given the option of "time travel", it's possible to redo it your previous movies without redoing the whole story. I would argue that normally, you would be absolutely correct, but in this case, I would argue that Marvel/Fox is bending the rules in their advantage.

Gbaji wrote:


Aside from the whole age/time issues (which is kind of a comic book staple that you have to just ignore, cause otherwise Peter Parker would be in his 60s), what inconsistencies are you talking about?


How the X-men became X-men, i.e. Wolverine. In Firsts class, Xavier approached Wolverine, different from the first movie.

Omega Vageta wrote:

Seriously? If that's the truth I don't think anyone, anywhere, should ever give two sh*ts about what you think about anything ever again as your taste in movies is really THAT bad.


Maybe you overlooked when I differentiated the actual movie from it's "X-men" content. Just looking at the movie, without any x-men bias, The Wolverine is much better. HOWEVER, when I look at Origins, I know that I'm watching X-men. That isn't true for the vast majority of the second movie. That's why I like Origins better from a fan point of view.

I apologize if you feel that your opinion is worth more than what it is.
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#59 Aug 12 2013 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
Alma wrote:
Maybe you overlooked when I differentiated the actual movie from it's "X-men" content. Just looking at the movie, without any x-men bias, The Wolverine is much better. HOWEVER, when I look at Origins, I know that I'm watching X-men. That isn't true for the vast majority of the second movie. That's why I like Origins better from a fan point of view.

I apologize if you feel that your opinion is worth more than what it is.


I'd apologize if you thought your opinion was worth anything, but I'm not actually sorry so...

Ya, that.
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#60 Aug 13 2013 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
Aside from the whole age/time issues (which is kind of a comic book staple that you have to just ignore, cause otherwise Peter Parker would be in his 60s), what inconsistencies are you talking about?


How the X-men became X-men, i.e. Wolverine. In Firsts class, Xavier approached Wolverine, different from the first movie.


That's not an inconsistency though. Xavier and Magneto approach Wolverine to join them. He blows them off. Consequently, Xavier never seeks to recruit him later. Wolverine then loses his memory, so when he shows up at the X-men mansion in the first X-men film, he has no clue who these people are. Xavier does know who Wolverine is though. Completely 100% consistent.

Why did you think otherwise?
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#61 Aug 13 2013 at 2:28 PM Rating: Default
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gbaji wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
Aside from the whole age/time issues (which is kind of a comic book staple that you have to just ignore, cause otherwise Peter Parker would be in his 60s), what inconsistencies are you talking about?


How the X-men became X-men, i.e. Wolverine. In Firsts class, Xavier approached Wolverine, different from the first movie.


That's not an inconsistency though. Xavier and Magneto approach Wolverine to join them. He blows them off. Consequently, Xavier never seeks to recruit him later. Wolverine then loses his memory, so when he shows up at the X-men mansion in the first X-men film, he has no clue who these people are. Xavier does know who Wolverine is though. Completely 100% consistent.

Why did you think otherwise?


Not from my recollection. It's been awhile, but I do recall either storm or Jean explaining to Xavier who Wolverine was "He could even be older than you". Seeing the same person decades later, looking exactly the same would cue you in on that alone.

Another one. In the last Wolverine movie, Wolverine was a POW alone, but in origins, he fought every war along side Sabertooth. WTF was Sabertooth? You could make some argument that he went home already, he wasn't a POW or he was at a different location, but you would be reaching. From a movie perspective, Wolverine was alone.

Here's just some from a google search.. I'm sure there's a ton more if you want to get down into it. The first one had the f-bomb in it, so the link would surely be broken.

http://www.critiques4geeks.com/2011/06/05/x-men-first-class-continuity-errors/

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/227-movies-at-the-theater/59318310



Edited, Aug 13th 2013 10:34pm by Almalieque

Edited, Aug 13th 2013 11:10pm by Almalieque
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#62 Aug 15 2013 at 8:46 AM Rating: Good
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Xavier is a notorious liar when it comes to getting what he wants.

Also he's been crippled / uncrippled about a half dozen times.
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#63 Aug 15 2013 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah. Huge manipulator, too. He's perfectly willing to erase memories if they're contrary to his goals.
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#64 Aug 15 2013 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
Aside from the whole age/time issues (which is kind of a comic book staple that you have to just ignore, cause otherwise Peter Parker would be in his 60s), what inconsistencies are you talking about?


How the X-men became X-men, i.e. Wolverine. In Firsts class, Xavier approached Wolverine, different from the first movie.


That's not an inconsistency though. Xavier and Magneto approach Wolverine to join them. He blows them off. Consequently, Xavier never seeks to recruit him later. Wolverine then loses his memory, so when he shows up at the X-men mansion in the first X-men film, he has no clue who these people are. Xavier does know who Wolverine is though. Completely 100% consistent.

Why did you think otherwise?


Not from my recollection. It's been awhile, but I do recall either storm or Jean explaining to Xavier who Wolverine was "He could even be older than you". Seeing the same person decades later, looking exactly the same would cue you in on that alone.


Jean doesn't necessarily know that. Also, the audience needs to be told this. So they'll get told this in each film, even if the characters already know this. It's just an artifact of film making, and does not indicate an inconsistency.

Quote:
Another one. In the last Wolverine movie, Wolverine was a POW alone, but in origins, he fought every war along side Sabertooth.


Seriously? A montage showing them fighting together in a series of wars doesn't mean that they fought every day of every war side by side and never left each other once.

Quote:
WTF was Sabertooth? You could make some argument that he went home already, he wasn't a POW or he was at a different location, but you would be reaching. From a movie perspective, Wolverine was alone.


Maybe Sabertooth was off screen? Maybe he was spotting for the bomb drop in an alternate location or something? Did you seriously actually think Wolverine was a prisoner? I got that he was pretending to be a prisoner so as to do some super secret thing he was doing.

Quote:
Here's just some from a google search.. I'm sure there's a ton more if you want to get down into it. The first one had the f-bomb in it, so the link would surely be broken.

http://www.critiques4geeks.com/2011/06/05/x-men-first-class-continuity-errors/

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/227-movies-at-the-theater/59318310


Yeah. Most of those have to do with the choice of time setting (which I addressed in my initial statement). It's a staple of comic books. None of those represent actual plot inconsistencies either. Just little details that are off. In the grand scale of things I worry about in super hero films, that sort of thing is well down the list.
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#65 Aug 16 2013 at 4:03 AM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:

Yeah. Most of those have to do with the choice of time setting (which I addressed in my initial statement). It's a staple of comic books. None of those represent actual plot inconsistencies either. Just little details that are off. In the grand scale of things I worry about in super hero films, that sort of thing is well down the list.


Is it really that hard to admit being wrong once in your life? There are several websites devoted to inconsistencies and you are claiming that all of them are wrong/not what you're referring to? GTFOWTBS!

The whole argument was that the movies had enough inconsistencies in them to be viewed as SEPARATE unrelated movies as opposed to one solid movie. I was not arguing simply from a plot point of view. In other words, just because First Class happened before the first X-men, doesn't mean First Class supports the first film. It just so happens to take place before it. That doesn't mean that the movie has a whole different plot.

Those are pretty significant inconsistencies, just one to note:

Professor Xavier becoming handicapped and then walking again and then handicapped. If Professor X became handicapped during the time as stated in First Class, then the scene in Origins (with Cyclops) and the scene in X2 (with Jean) CAN NOT COEXIST. It only makes sense if you view the movies independently!


Gbaji wrote:
Jean doesn't necessarily know that. Also, the audience needs to be told this. So they'll get told this in each film, even if the characters already know this. It's just an artifact of film making, and does not indicate an inconsistency.


It's inconsistent from a movie stand point because it portrays ignorance from Xavier. If the audience needs to be told, then it would have made more sense to have Xavier say it. Having to tell the audience is even more the reason why you can't have assumptions in the movie. Jean was briefing Xavier information that was portrayed as being new information. Nowhere did he "yes, we've met before" or said anything indicating that they had a past. The same with Mystique. As you said, the audience needs to know.

Gbaji wrote:

Seriously? A montage showing them fighting together in a series of wars doesn't mean that they fought every day of every war side by side and never left each other once. Maybe Sabertooth was off screen? Maybe he was spotting for the bomb drop in an alternate location or something? Did you seriously actually think Wolverine was a prisoner? I got that he was pretending to be a prisoner so as to do some super secret thing he was doing.


Read above. You just said that audience needs to be told in each film. So where was it in this film? You can't have it both ways. Either it needs to be addressed in each film or it doesn't. There was nothing in the movie suggesting that he was with Sabertooth as portrayed in Origins. That would be like the new movie going back in time of the first film with no Professor Xavier and you say "maybe he was on vacation". The second you start saying "maybe", you have already failed if you believe the movie needs to explain things to the audience.

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#66 Aug 16 2013 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:

Yeah. Most of those have to do with the choice of time setting (which I addressed in my initial statement). It's a staple of comic books. None of those represent actual plot inconsistencies either. Just little details that are off. In the grand scale of things I worry about in super hero films, that sort of thing is well down the list.


Is it really that hard to admit being wrong once in your life? There are several websites devoted to inconsistencies and you are claiming that all of them are wrong/not what you're referring to? GTFOWTBS!


Holy crap do you live in a black and white world! I acknowledged that there were inconsistencies, but that for the most part, these inconsistencies had to do with age/time issues. I specifically stated that I did not find any inconsistencies at all between Origins: Wolverine and the first three X-men films. And guess what? There aren't any.

There are some minor inconsistencies between First Class and the other films though. But only a few. Xavier being crippled then, but walking in Origins: Wolverine, for example. But given that Stewart's appearance in the latter film is just a cameo, it's not really a big deal. I honestly chalk that more up to some writer for First Class really really wanting to set the time period of First Class around the Cuban Missile Crisis (and the groovy 60s) than anything else. They really should have placed that film chronologically sometime in the mid 80s to make things fit for a more modern series. If for no other reason than it becomes increasingly more difficult to explain how folks who were teens in the 40s aren't in their 90s in 2013+. Or why people who were in their teens in the 60s appear to be in their late 20s or early 30s in the late 90s.

But that's a time/age issue. The only actual inconsistency is the whole issue of when Xavier was crippled.

Quote:
The whole argument was that the movies had enough inconsistencies in them to be viewed as SEPARATE unrelated movies as opposed to one solid movie. I was not arguing simply from a plot point of view. In other words, just because First Class happened before the first X-men, doesn't mean First Class supports the first film. It just so happens to take place before it. That doesn't mean that the movie has a whole different plot.


But they clearly intended First Class to be a story about how the X-men we saw in the trilogy got started. And really more about telling Magnetos story and how he and Xavier first met and what drove them to their different approaches to the human/mutant question. That's the point. Yes, we can argue that it could be viewed as a stand--alone film, and I'm not really married to either view. The bigger question isn't about First Class, but about the trilogy and this next film. And that film is clearly intended to exist in the same universe.

Quote:
Professor Xavier becoming handicapped and then walking again and then handicapped. If Professor X became handicapped during the time as stated in First Class, then the scene in Origins (with Cyclops) and the scene in X2 (with Jean) CAN NOT COEXIST. It only makes sense if you view the movies independently!


It's a minor issue though. Does it really matter? Remember that the films were filmed out of order. Showing Xavier walking in X3 (not X2 btw) and in Origins isn't about setting an absolute time frame in which he was walking or not walking, but about establishing for the viewer that at one point in the past he could walk. It shows us that these are "in the past". Again, the key point is to establish that Xavier's handicap wasn't genetic, but the result of some form of injury. Which is precisely the case.

Again, this is more about someone wanting to set First Class in the 60s instead of the 80s than anything else. I completely agree that they should have set it in a more reasonable time period. But if we're going to ***** about that, then it becomes inconsistent with *any* other X-men story we could tell that's set in a modern time period anyway. So you really do just kinda have to get past that and move on.


Quote:
Gbaji wrote:
Jean doesn't necessarily know that. Also, the audience needs to be told this. So they'll get told this in each film, even if the characters already know this. It's just an artifact of film making, and does not indicate an inconsistency.


It's inconsistent from a movie stand point because it portrays ignorance from Xavier.


No, it doesn't. Xavier clearly knows who Logan is in the first film (or at least knows enough about him to immediately start talking about his loss of memory). This is a really silly nit to pick.

Quote:
If the audience needs to be told, then it would have made more sense to have Xavier say it. Having to tell the audience is even more the reason why you can't have assumptions in the movie. Jean was briefing Xavier information that was portrayed as being new information. Nowhere did he "yes, we've met before" or said anything indicating that they had a past. The same with Mystique. As you said, the audience needs to know.


Why? They want to establish that Wolverine healing factor means he can be very old without appearing to be. That way, when/if they follow up with additional stories about the character, it's not something new being introduced, but something they've known all along. Your proof of an inconsistency is because Xavier didn't go out of his way to tell someone that he already knew something they told him? That's pretty darn weak. Let's also remember that at the time they filmed X1, they didn't know if they were going to have future films in which Xavier would encounter Wolverine. Point being that from a writing point of view, by having Xavier not say anything we get to tell the audience about this aspect of Wolverine's powers, but not lock future writers into anything.

That doesn't make that later choice to have Xavier encounter Wolverine inconsistent. They left the issue open.

Quote:
Read above. You just said that audience needs to be told in each film. So where was it in this film?


Huh? The montage was where they were told. Both brothers did not age (or aged very slowly). That was the freaking point of that entire thing. It was not to make some idiot think that Sabertooth and Wolverine never spent a day apart for 80 years.

Quote:
You can't have it both ways. Either it needs to be addressed in each film or it doesn't. There was nothing in the movie suggesting that he was with Sabertooth as portrayed in Origins. That would be like the new movie going back in time of the first film with no Professor Xavier and you say "maybe he was on vacation". The second you start saying "maybe", you have already failed if you believe the movie needs to explain things to the audience.


WTF are you even arguing at this point?
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#67 Aug 16 2013 at 7:10 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:

Holy crap do you live in a black and white world! I acknowledged that there were inconsistencies, but that for the most part, these inconsistencies had to do with age/time issues. I specifically stated that I did not find any inconsistencies at all between Origins: Wolverine and the first three X-men films. And guess what? There aren't any.

There are some minor inconsistencies between First Class and the other films though. But only a few. Xavier being crippled then, but walking in Origins: Wolverine, for example. But given that Stewart's appearance in the latter film is just a cameo, it's not really a big deal. I honestly chalk that more up to some writer for First Class really really wanting to set the time period of First Class around the Cuban Missile Crisis (and the groovy 60s) than anything else. They really should have placed that film chronologically sometime in the mid 80s to make things fit for a more modern series. If for no other reason than it becomes increasingly more difficult to explain how folks who were teens in the 40s aren't in their 90s in 2013+. Or why people who were in their teens in the 60s appear to be in their late 20s or early 30s in the late 90s.

But that's a time/age issue. The only actual inconsistency is the whole issue of when Xavier was crippled.


BS!
Gbaji wrote:

Almalieque wrote:
I know that they aren't independent, but if you watch them altogether, you have to ignore certain parts of the other movies. Only the first three movies are truly dependent. In any case, I prefer Origins over the last Wolverine movie. "

Aside from the whole age/time issues (which is kind of a comic book staple that you have to just ignore, cause otherwise Peter Parker would be in his 60s), what inconsistencies are you talking about?


This was not a matter of Origins vs the first three X-men, but watching all of the movies together, specifically First Class as a true prequel or a reboot. It's not that hard to admit being wrong. It's a whole lot less effort than making up new stuff in the hope that people wont realize it.

Gbaji wrote:
And really more about telling Magnetos story and how he and Xavier first met and what drove them to their different approaches to the human/mutant question.


Which is also a contradiction! First class shows them going their separate ways early on, when the later shows them still together in a flash back with Jean. Furthermore, Xavier said that he didn't even meet Magneto until much later in his life, yet First class have them as BFFs as teens. Thank you for proving my point. Both stories can't coexist. Contradiction!

Gbaji wrote:
The bigger question isn't about First Class, but about the trilogy and this next film. And that film is clearly intended to exist in the same universe.


That was never the question. We all know that and I even quoted it from lolwiki. No matter how many times that you move the goal post, you will always be wrong.

Gbaji wrote:
It's a minor issue though. Does it really matter? Remember that the films were filmed out of order. Showing Xavier walking in X3 (not X2 btw) and in Origins isn't about setting an absolute time frame in which he was walking or not walking, but about establishing for the viewer that at one point in the past he could walk. It shows us that these are "in the past". Again, the key point is to establish that Xavier's handicap wasn't genetic, but the result of some form of injury. Which is precisely the case.

Again, this is more about someone wanting to set First Class in the 60s instead of the 80s than anything else. I completely agree that they should have set it in a more reasonable time period. But if we're going to ***** about that, then it becomes inconsistent with *any* other X-men story we could tell that's set in a modern time period anyway. So you really do just kinda have to get past that and move on.


It has absolutely nothing to do with the time of decade, but all with the fact that professor was handicapped as a "young adult" but then later walking as an "old man". I don't care when the film took place, it's still a contradiction. The flashback, represents a time in the past and no matter what decade it took place, it's wrong. Even if you ignored the age of Xavier, he was handicapped at the creation of the X-men. Furthermore, Xavier said that Jean, Storm and Cyclops were his first students, which completely contradicts the entire First Class basis. It matters if you're trying to view all of the movies dependently, not so much when you view them independently, which was my point.

Gbaji wrote:

No, it doesn't. Xavier clearly knows who Logan is in the first film (or at least knows enough about him to immediately start talking about his loss of memory). This is a really silly nit to pick.


Exactly what part in the in the script suggests that?

Dr. Jean Grey: [after examining Wolverine] The metal is an alloy called adamantium, supposedly indestructible. It's been surgically grafted to his entire skeleton.

Storm: How could he have survived a procedure like that?

Dr. Jean Grey: His mutation. He has uncharted regenerative capabilities, enabling him to heal rapidly. It also makes his age impossible to determine. He could very well be older than you, Professor.

Cyclops: Who did this to him?

Dr. Jean Grey: He doesn't know. Nor does he remember anything about his life before it happened.

Prof. Charles Francis Xavier: Experimentation on mutants. It's not unheard of, but I've never seen anything like this before.

Cyclops: What do you think Magneto wants with him?

Prof. Charles Francis Xavier: I'm not entirely sure it's him Magneto wants.

Gbaji wrote:
Why? They want to establish that Wolverine healing factor means he can be very old without appearing to be. That way, when/if they follow up with additional stories about the character, it's not something new being introduced, but something they've known all along. Your proof of an inconsistency is because Xavier didn't go out of his way to tell someone that he already knew something they told him? That's pretty darn weak. Let's also remember that at the time they filmed X1, they didn't know if they were going to have future films in which Xavier would encounter Wolverine. Point being that from a writing point of view, by having Xavier not say anything we get to tell the audience about this aspect of Wolverine's powers, but not lock future writers into anything.

That doesn't make that later choice to have Xavier encounter Wolverine inconsistent. They left the issue open.


Except there were already several scenes of Wolverine's healing power BEFORE the scene above, i.e. the fight with Sabertooth (which they never acknowledged their history iirc) So, the audience was already introduced to it. Nothing in the scene above suggests that Xavier knows anything.

Gbaji wrote:
Huh? The montage was where they were told. Both brothers did not age (or aged very slowly). That was the freaking point of that entire thing. It was not to make some idiot think that Sabertooth and Wolverine never spent a day apart for 80 years.


That could have been done with a simple text with a different year. The montage was done to show the relationship between him and his brother as warriors. It's the same reason why Wolverine keeps waking up with nightmares and decides to get out of that business and regrets going back. In any case, it's all irrelevant from a movie stand point. That's like recreating the scene with Xavier meeting Jean grey with no Magneto and saying "oh well, he could have been in the bathroom at that particular scene". Of course there are several possibilities that anyone can imagine that wouldn't be contradictory, but as you said, the audience has to be told that. From a movie perspective, he was by himself.

That's the only reason why I believe Jean had cameos in the last movie, to remind people that this was AFTER Last Stand. Else, there isn't much suggesting otherwise.

Gbaji wrote:

WTF are you even arguing at this point?


You can't argue that the audience has to be told things as a reminder, when Jean Grey talks about Wolverine's age/healing ability in each film, then claim it's not necessary with Wolverine and Sabertooth.
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#68 Aug 16 2013 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
This was not a matter of Origins vs the first three X-men, but watching all of the movies together, specifically First Class as a true prequel or a reboot. It's not that hard to admit being wrong. It's a whole lot less effort than making up new stuff in the hope that people wont realize it.


Is it new stuff when I clearly said that the inconsistencies that existed were time/age related, and that there were no "plot inconsistencies" between the films? I don't use descriptive words by accident or randomly Alma. A plot inconsistency is where a specific event which affects the storyline occurs in one film, but is contradicted in another. Xavier being shown walking versus in a wheelchair in a couple brief scenes does not affect the plot at all. Nothing changed in terms of story based on whether he was walking or in a chair. It simply doesn't matter, unless one is going out of their way to nitpick details.

Now if those other films had been filmed *after* First Class, I would consider it a bigger error. Because First Class establishes exactly when and how Xavier is crippled. The brief scenes in Origins and X3 only show him walking to let the audience know that at some point in the past, he could walk. First Class then changes that, and we can happily pretend that in both of those scenes he's actually not walking. And since whether he's walking or not has absolutely no effect on the story or plot of those films, it's not a big deal. So not so much inconsistency as a later film clarifying details left vague in previous films.

As I've said repeatedly, in the grand scheme of things for films like this, it's well down my list of things that might bother me.

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Gbaji wrote:
And really more about telling Magnetos story and how he and Xavier first met and what drove them to their different approaches to the human/mutant question.


Which is also a contradiction! First class shows them going their separate ways early on, when the later shows them still together in a flash back with Jean. Furthermore, Xavier said that he didn't even meet Magneto until much later in his life, yet First class have them as BFFs as teens. Thank you for proving my point. Both stories can't coexist. Contradiction!


A: You don't really seem to understand what a contradiction is.

B. You obviously haven't watched any of the films recently because you keep getting key facts wrong.

There is no contradiction there. You are aware that 30+ years pass between the events in First Class and X-Men1, right? And in X1, they are portrayed less as enemies than old friends with much in common, but different ideas about how to go about doing things. They do not hate each other. It's not unreasonable to assume that in that 30 year time period they have worked together many times for common purpose. ****. In X1, Xavier makes mention of his belief that Magneto would never go forward with his plan if he knew that it would kill the people turned into mutants. Magneto does continue it only because he doesn't believe the X-men when they tell him this.

A contradiction would be if Xavier had said that he and Magneto were sworn enemies who have hated and fought against each other every day for the last 30 years. But not only does he not say that, he strongly suggests the opposite. Similarly, in X2, he says that Magneto helped him build Cerebro. But the cerebro from First Class is destroyed (and not built by Magneto). Presumably, the two did work together at some point in between those two points in time. So again. Not a contradiction.


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It has absolutely nothing to do with the time of decade, but all with the fact that professor was handicapped as a "young adult" but then later walking as an "old man". I don't care when the film took place, it's still a contradiction. The flashback, represents a time in the past and no matter what decade it took place, it's wrong. Even if you ignored the age of Xavier, he was handicapped at the creation of the X-men. Furthermore, Xavier said that Jean, Storm and Cyclops were his first students, which completely contradicts the entire First Class basis. It matters if you're trying to view all of the movies dependently, not so much when you view them independently, which was my point.


I'd call these inconsistencies, not contradictions. Mountains and molehills.

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Gbaji wrote:

No, it doesn't. Xavier clearly knows who Logan is in the first film (or at least knows enough about him to immediately start talking about his loss of memory). This is a really silly nit to pick.


Exactly what part in the in the script suggests that?


You really haven't gone back and watched X1 recently, have you? One of the first things Xavier talks with Wolverine about it his loss of memory. Xavier uses this as a hook to get Wolverine to help them out (offering to help him recover his memories). It's not stated one way or another if Xavier knows or remembers Logan, but it's not inconsistent with him having met him earlier either.

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Dr. Jean Grey: [after examining Wolverine] The metal is an alloy called adamantium, supposedly indestructible. It's been surgically grafted to his entire skeleton.

Storm: How could he have survived a procedure like that?

Dr. Jean Grey: His mutation. He has uncharted regenerative capabilities, enabling him to heal rapidly. It also makes his age impossible to determine. He could very well be older than you, Professor.

Cyclops: Who did this to him?

Dr. Jean Grey: He doesn't know. Nor does he remember anything about his life before it happened.

Prof. Charles Francis Xavier: Experimentation on mutants. It's not unheard of, but I've never seen anything like this before.

Cyclops: What do you think Magneto wants with him?

Prof. Charles Francis Xavier: I'm not entirely sure it's him Magneto wants.



Nothing there contradicts the fact that he met Wolverine briefly in First Class. Remember. First Class occurs *before* Origins. Thus, Logan did not have adamantium in his bones when they met back then. Xavier never directly encounters Wolverine in Origins either, so he would have had no way of knowing about the adamantium then either.

So what's contradictory? Nothing.

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Except there were already several scenes of Wolverine's healing power BEFORE the scene above, i.e. the fight with Sabertooth (which they never acknowledged their history iirc) So, the audience was already introduced to it. Nothing in the scene above suggests that Xavier knows anything.


Nothing suggests that he knew nothing about Wolverine either. It's only contradictory if something in the film directly states that Xavier had never met wolverine. But no such thing exists.
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#69 Aug 16 2013 at 10:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Gbaji wrote:
Is it new stuff when I clearly said that the inconsistencies that existed were time/age related, and that there were no "plot inconsistencies" between the films? I don't use descriptive words by accident or randomly Alma. A plot inconsistency is where a specific event which affects the storyline occurs in one film, but is contradicted in another. Xavier being shown walking versus in a wheelchair in a couple brief scenes does not affect the plot at all. Nothing changed in terms of story based on whether he was walking or in a chair. It simply doesn't matter, unless one is going out of their way to nitpick details.

Now if those other films had been filmed *after* First Class, I would consider it a bigger error. Because First Class establishes exactly when and how Xavier is crippled. The brief scenes in Origins and X3 only show him walking to let the audience know that at some point in the past, he could walk. First Class then changes that, and we can happily pretend that in both of those scenes he's actually not walking. And since whether he's walking or not has absolutely no effect on the story or plot of those films, it's not a big deal. So not so much inconsistency as a later film clarifying details left vague in previous films.

As I've said repeatedly, in the grand scheme of things for films like this, it's well down my list of things that might bother me.


Gbaji wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I know that they aren't independent, but if you watch them altogether, you have to ignore certain parts of the other movies. Only the first three movies are truly dependent. In any case, I prefer Origins over the last Wolverine movie. "


Aside from the whole age/time issues (which is kind of a comic book staple that you have to just ignore, cause otherwise Peter Parker would be in his 60s), what inconsistencies are you talking about?


My argument, which is what you questioned, was that you have to ignore certain parts of the movies in order to consider them dependent, that only the first three movies were truly dependent. So anything outside of that argument is new stuff. Your initial question said nothing about plot. You're simply changing the criteria for the contradictions to prevent acknowledging being wrong.

Gbaji wrote:
A: You don't really seem to understand what a contradiction is.

B. You obviously haven't watched any of the films recently because you keep getting key facts wrong.

There is no contradiction there. You are aware that 30+ years pass between the events in First Class and X-Men1, right? And in X1, they are portrayed less as enemies than old friends with much in common, but different ideas about how to go about doing things. They do not hate each other. It's not unreasonable to assume that in that 30 year time period they have worked together many times for common purpose. ****. In X1, Xavier makes mention of his belief that Magneto would never go forward with his plan if he knew that it would kill the people turned into mutants. Magneto does continue it only because he doesn't believe the X-men when they tell him this.

A contradiction would be if Xavier had said that he and Magneto were sworn enemies who have hated and fought against each other every day for the last 30 years. But not only does he not say that, he strongly suggests the opposite. Similarly, in X2, he says that Magneto helped him build Cerebro. But the cerebro from First Class is destroyed (and not built by Magneto). Presumably, the two did work together at some point in between those two points in time. So again. Not a contradiction.


1. Dr Xavier says he met magneto when he was seventeen in the first x-men movie. In first class he didn't meet him until he was already a professor. That is a contradiction.

2. Xavier said that Cyclops, Jean and Storm were his first students, which contradicts the entire First Class movie

3. Beast went from Human, Beast, Human to Beast. That is a contradiction

4. The story of Magneto's helmet, which is big freaking part of Magneto, is a contradiction.

All of those are irrefutable contradictions.

Besides, I just popped in the DVD and the first thing Xavier does is introduces himself to Wolverine. When Xavier mentions his past and the lost of memory, he's inside of Wolverine's head and says "you're not the only one with gifts". He goes on to offer his help, but never says "hey I met you at x, maybe something there will jog your memory". Then he started saying the voices in his head that lead him to his office in the first place, displaying that he has the ability to read minds. In other words, from a movie point of view, he was illustrating that Xavier just learned that information. Hence why Jean gave a more in depth analysis later, because Xavier didn't know.

Obviously, the directors thought it would be funny to have Wolverine in First class with his one-liner. There was no thought "how will this affect the plot/story, etc.". Why you refuse to accept it as such is beyond absurd.

Gbaji wrote:

I'd call these inconsistencies, not contradictions. Mountains and molehills.
Well, I'm using the dictionary to define the words that I use. An inconsistency that implies and/or asserts both a truth and a falsity is considered a contradiction.

Gbaji wrote:
Nothing there contradicts the fact that he met Wolverine briefly in First Class. Remember. First Class occurs *before* Origins. Thus, Logan did not have adamantium in his bones when they met back then. Xavier never directly encounters Wolverine in Origins either, so he would have had no way of knowing about the adamantium then either.

So what's contradictory? Nothing.


As I said, and you conveniently didn't respond to, you can't have it both ways. Either the movie should remind the audience of things in each film or it shouldn't. Which one is it?

Gbaji wrote:

Nothing suggests that he knew nothing about Wolverine either. It's only contradictory if something in the film directly states that Xavier had never met wolverine. But no such thing exists.

So you retract your statement that Jean's statements were not to let the audience know about his mutant abilities?

Edited, Aug 17th 2013 6:54am by Almalieque
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#70 Aug 19 2013 at 6:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Your initial question said nothing about plot. You're simply changing the criteria for the contradictions to prevent acknowledging being wrong.


Changing, clarifying, whatever. I don't consider minor discrepancies which don't affect the plot in any way at all to be that important. You apparently do. Great, I guess.

Quote:
1. Dr Xavier says he met magneto when he was seventeen in the first x-men movie. In first class he didn't meet him until he was already a professor. That is a contradiction.


And how does this affect anything though? Does it matter at all if Xavier met Magneto when he was 17, or 20, or 25? Who cares? It's an age/time thing, as I said. Don't get caught up on it. Also, I don't recall him specifically stating his age when they first met anyway. Can you find a quote for this? Not saying he didn't say it, I just don't recall it.

Quote:
2. Xavier said that Cyclops, Jean and Storm were his first students, which contradicts the entire First Class movie


Same deal. Somewhat irrelevant dialog from an earlier film. Lots of potential explanations for this. Which I suspect is the issue here. When I see things in films that don't quite line up, I look for an explanation that fits them in. You seem to be doing the opposite. Not sure what the value is in doing that though.

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3. Beast went from Human, Beast, Human to Beast. That is a contradiction


He did that in the comic books too. Not a contradiction at all.

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4. The story of Magneto's helmet, which is big freaking part of Magneto, is a contradiction.


And? Does it change one aspect of any of the stories involved? No. It doesn't.

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All of those are irrefutable contradictions.


I would use the word "irrelevant" instead.

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Besides, I just popped in the DVD and the first thing Xavier does is introduces himself to Wolverine. When Xavier mentions his past and the lost of memory, he's inside of Wolverine's head and says "you're not the only one with gifts". He goes on to offer his help, but never says "hey I met you at x, maybe something there will jog your memory".


Um... Cause they hadn't filmed the movie where he did. So what? Again, you're looking for ways that things *could* be inconsistent rather than the other way around. Not mentioning he'd met Logan doesn't mean that he hadn't.

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Then he started saying the voices in his head that lead him to his office in the first place, displaying that he has the ability to read minds. In other words, from a movie point of view, he was illustrating that Xavier just learned that information. Hence why Jean gave a more in depth analysis later, because Xavier didn't know.


Or, you could understand how films have to be written to make sense to the audience. They can't introduce information that wont be viewed by the audience until 4 films later. You leave those details open, so you can fill them in later. Which is what they did here.

Quote:
Obviously, the directors thought it would be funny to have Wolverine in First class with his one-liner. There was no thought "how will this affect the plot/story, etc.". Why you refuse to accept it as such is beyond absurd.


Why you insist on thinking that it must have an effect on the plot/story instead of just accepting it as a funny cameo and moving on, is even more absurd.

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As I said, and you conveniently didn't respond to, you can't have it both ways. Either the movie should remind the audience of things in each film or it shouldn't. Which one is it?


Huh? The movie can't remind the audience of things that haven't been filmed yet. It can only leave things open so that future films can fill in the details. When X1 was filmed, First Class did not exist. So they can't write into the screenplay of X1 that Xavier met Wolverine previously. But by not saying one way or another whether he had, they can include the cameo in First Class and *not* create a contradiction at all.

You're trying to argue that the absence of confirming information in a prior film somehow invalidates adding that information in a later film. That's nuts.

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Gbaji wrote:

Nothing suggests that he knew nothing about Wolverine either. It's only contradictory if something in the film directly states that Xavier had never met wolverine. But no such thing exists.

So you retract your statement that Jean's statements were not to let the audience know about his mutant abilities?


When the **** did I say that? I argued the exact opposite, remember? You insisted that Jean's dialog about Logan's healing abilities meant that Xavier didn't know about them ahead of time, and thus it was a contradiction since he'd already met him in First Class (never mind that we don't know if Xavier actually knew what mutation Logan had anyway). I argued that this dialog was in the film to let the audience know what his abilities were and not to get hung up on it.


You're really reaching here. Look. There are some legitimate things you can look at in these films as flaws/mistakes/whatever. But the stuff you're obsessing over? Not really important at all.
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Gbaji wrote:

Changing, clarifying, whatever. I don't consider minor discrepancies which don't affect the plot in any way at all to be that important. You apparently do. Great, I guess.


Once again, My comment was

"I know that they aren't independent, but if you watch them altogether, you have to ignore certain parts of the other movies. Only the first three movies are truly dependent. In any case, I prefer Origins over the last Wolverine movie. "

Your response was

"Aside from the whole age/time issues (which is kind of a comic book staple that you have to just ignore, cause otherwise Peter Parker would be in his 60s), what inconsistencies are you talking about?"


You simply asked for inconsistencies. I provided them to you. I never said anything about the plot, neither was your original question. So you can pretend that those inconsistencies are irrelevant, but that wasn't the point anyway, but that they exist and have to be ignored to watch the movies dependently.


Edit: Age has to do with Emma Frost being older before younger. When Xavier and Magneto split their ways is indeed a plot contradiction.


Edited, Aug 20th 2013 5:21am by Almalieque
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The Asylum is spreading.


It was only a matter of time. The barrier shields, forged in the fires of the great OOT split in blood and iron have been eroding for e-centuries, and the doors to the dark prison will inevitably open. God help us all when they venture forth back into the gaming forums.
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#74 Aug 20 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
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The Asylum is spreading.


It was only a matter of time. The barrier shields, forged in the fires of the great OOT split in blood and iron have been eroding for e-centuries, and the doors to the dark prison will inevitably open. God help us all when they venture forth back into the gaming forums.

Dear god, they better stop making MMOs. Lest they actually find one they... want to play.
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#75 Aug 20 2013 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
You simply asked for inconsistencies. I provided them to you. I never said anything about the plot, neither was your original question. So you can pretend that those inconsistencies are irrelevant, but that wasn't the point anyway, but that they exist and have to be ignored to watch the movies dependently.


Yes. And when you provided them, I responded that they were really minor inconsistencies, didn't affect the plot of any of the films, and thus weren't a big deal. So we're done now?

Quote:
Edit: Age has to do with Emma Frost being older before younger. When Xavier and Magneto split their ways is indeed a plot contradiction.


Only if one assumes they never work together again after that point. Which would be a strange assumption given that in the comics the two of them do go back and forth many times working together or fighting against each other. It's quite reasonable to assume that in that 30 year period of time, they did work together from time to time. They do ultimately have a common cause. They just disagree on how to pursue it.


I was actually thinking about this last night and it occurred to me that while everyone makes this huge deal about how Beast appears to be a normal human in that brief background shot in X2, but turns blue in First Class, no one seems to point out the far bigger problem with that scene: Isn't he debating the "mutant problem" with Sebastian Shaw? You know, the main villain in First Class who is killed by Magneto? I mean, if we're going to talk about inconsistencies, isn't that a much bigger one?


Dunno. I'm certainly willing to point out problems with films, even (especially) with films covering settings I'm a fan of. But I don't sweat the minor inconsistencies. It's nearly impossible to do a series of films all set in the same world but written by different people, directed by different people, and often produced by different people, and not have some minor inconsistencies. I'm far more critical of plot holes and character changes that don't make sense, or appear to be contrived to make the story "work" without regard to the larger franchise.

Trust me. I have a number of issues with First Class as a film. I didn't like the time setting. I didn't like the use of Sebastian Shaw as the villain. I especially didn't like the modification of his powers. The introduction of Shaw having the helmet was wrong too. Not only because it retconned the earlier assumption about Magneto's helmet, but because it was just plain silly. Using Havok was a bad idea as well. All of these problems could have been avoided if they'd set the film in a more reasonable time period. But they wanted to show Xavier and Magneto meeting, so they had to set it in an earlier time frame. At the same time, they wanted to introduce early mutants, at least some of which would be recognizable to the audience. This creates a problem. So I get why the film had the issues it did, but that doesn't mean I like it.


It does, on the other hand, mean I can excuse those problems. I don't feel a need to dwell on them. And I certainly don't think it means that First Class was intended as a reboot. Quite the opposite. The problems introduced with the film exist because of an attempt to integrate the modern stories with the origin stories. This is inherently problematic because of the whole "comics ignore time and aging in characters" thing. If they'd just wanted to reboot, they could have done so easily. It's clear that they were attempting to reconcile things, but just didn't do a great job of it.
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Gbaji wrote:

Yes. And when you provided them, I responded that they were really minor inconsistencies, didn't affect the plot of any of the films, and thus weren't a big deal. So we're done now?


The original comment and response had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PLOT. Furthermore, your usage of the word "minor" is applied to EVERY inconsistency. Objectively speaking, if a person, new to the x-men universe, saw all of the movies in their time order, s/he would be confused unless s/he ignored certain parts. That was my point and it was proven. Regardless how minor you believe them to be is irrelevant to the point at hand. The mentioning of plot contradiction was another one of your distractions after proved my point. So, yes, are we done?

Gbaji wrote:

Only if one assumes they never work together again after that point.

Once you start going into assumption land, the movie has failed in explanation, if that is the movie's direction. Clearly, that final scene with Xavier and Magneto was symbolic of them transitioning from friends to enemies. Could they have worked together after that? Yes. Also, Xavier could have worked alongside Magneto to enslave mankind, killing millions of innocent people. There is nothing in the plot to contradict that, but there also isn't anything in the plot to support it as well. Likewise with your theories.
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#77 Aug 22 2013 at 8:33 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
The Asylum is spreading.
I'd say they've ruined a perfectly good franchise, but even I can't blame them for that.
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#78 Dec 03 2013 at 2:11 AM Rating: Good
So, just watched the extended edition. It isn't a completely different movie, like the Daredevil directors cut, but it does improve The Wolverine substantially even with only 12 minutes of additional footage, an extended ninja fight (with clever and then somewhat cheesy/cool use of a snow melter), added blood, & a couple more F bombs.

Its pretty much the closest we're ever going to get to an R rated Wolverine & I definitely liked it more than the vanilla version. Plot makes a bit more sense too.
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