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#52 Jul 09 2013 at 8:05 AM Rating: Good
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Fox owns the right to "mutants," but not all the specific characters themselves, so Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are getting in through a loophole by not mentioning that they're mutants, and not mentioning Magneto as their father. SW and QS are pretty much confirmed last I heard for the next Avengers movie, along with Falcon, so there you go.

If you're interested in Rule 63'd characters, there's plenty of them in the books. Spider-Man has Spider-Woman and a ton of Spider-Girls, Wolverine has X-23, Iron Man has Rescue (though she's out for the time being), Stiltman has Lady Stiltman ("It's a homage!"), so on and so forth. Most of them are similar enough to be recognizable but unique enough to differentiate and stand on their own. Sometimes.

Edited, Jul 9th 2013 10:05am by lolgaxe
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#53 Jul 09 2013 at 8:19 AM Rating: Good
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****, X-23 looks badass.

My worry with the mutants is that they're starting to stretch the cinematic trend of this universe as "magic" being synonymous with science, just in an area humans haven't pioneered yet. They went pretty far out of their way to substantiate this in Thor, and nearly all Magic Loki used didn't stretch belief too far - illusions and mind control.

I mean, Scarlet Witch's powers stretch credulity even in the context of the X-Men universe. The ability to change reality/affect probability/use chaos magic? C'mon now.

Also, apparently Quicksilver has already been cast for the next X-Men movie. So I'd expect some sort of legal battle over him, or for Disney to back down. I mean, is he really worth the fight? I'd go with no.

Honestly, if they were going to include any mutants, those are certainly not two I would choose...

What I see happening is them bringing in Namor.
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#54 Jul 09 2013 at 8:32 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
My worry with the mutants is that they're starting to stretch the cinematic trend of this universe as "magic" being synonymous with science, just in an area humans haven't pioneered yet. They went pretty far out of their way to substantiate this in Thor, and nearly all Magic Loki used didn't stretch belief too far - illusions and mind control.
It's not really cinematic trend; That's basically Marvel's take on the subject. Dr. Doom is constantly merging science and magic, since it's his whole shtick, Black Panther does science and spirituality, and Hank Pym literally created a science that duplicates the effects of magic, simply because he could. We're talking pocket spaces, teleportation doors, shrinking, growing, fireballs, etc etc. He even invented a Heaven. DC, from my limited understanding, takes the more traditional route that science and magic are two independent things with little to no crossover.

As far as movie rights, I imagine it'll be a loophole war. Fox will use the characters but not the code names, while Marvel studio will use the code names but not the real names. Speculation and rumors aside, of course. One movie might change their minds before filming, afterall since neither studio has really even cast anyone for the roles.
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#55 Jul 09 2013 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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Well, apparently Evan Peters is playing Quicksilver. Which is all kinds of disturbing...
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#56 Jul 09 2013 at 11:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And then they can rip all of our hearts out with the Civil War.


That would be awesome!

I can't come up with many intruiging female non-mutant Avengers either. Tigra or Spider-Woman are not particularly interesting. Or She-Hulk... Smiley: lol A good character would be Ms. Marvel (despite the stupid name) but she is closely connected to Rogue from the X-Men, so there's that. :/
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#57 Jul 09 2013 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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TherealLogros wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And then they can rip all of our hearts out with the Civil War.


That would be awesome!

I can't come up with many intruiging female non-mutant Avengers either. Tigra or Spider-Woman are not particularly interesting. Or She-Hulk... Smiley: lol A good character would be Ms. Marvel (despite the stupid name) but she is closely connected to Rogue from the X-Men, so there's that. :/


I thought about her, but I have difficulty imagining them including her. Her name is something of a commercial nightmare from a marketing perspective. It's just so... gimmicky.

I imagine The Wasp will be coming into the series soon; if not, I'm going to be seriously ******* I refuse to accept Hank Pym if they don't give me Janet, too.

To the best of my knowledge, the Civil War is already their endgame. Which means they're going to have to introduce a lot of secret heroes/villains between then and now. Or come up with a new reason for the war, besides the Superhuman Registration Act.

No Spider-Man, so there's one down for the masked side of things. Not to mention the substantial collection of masked villains. No mutants, which axes a bunch of heroes and villains. Potentially no Fantastic Four (Sony's dragging their heals on the reboot, which could be grounds for Disney to claim it), which takes the Four and villains like Doom.

I mean, who do we even have to work with now? The Abomination, who is already in custody, and Brainiac, who has yet to be mentioned beyond the Hulk movie. I haven't seen IM3 yet, but Hammer is the only IM villain to live (that I'm aware of) from the first two movies. Winter Soldier, Bucky, will probably remain masked. I doubt Romanoff or Barton's real identities are public knowledge, but they could be. No clue about Banner. Thor doesn't have a secret identity to reveal in the movie!verse. Iron Patriot/Warmachine obviously are already declared and managed by the government.

Hank/Janet and the Panther could both be options. But that's still a pretty severe lack of masked people to make the argument feel like it has enough weight for the good Cap'n to form the opposition movement.
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#58 Jul 09 2013 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
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Brainiac is DC, you're thinking of "The Leader". Or maybe M.O.D.O.K.
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#59 Jul 09 2013 at 11:37 AM Rating: Good
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Civil War without Spider-Man would be like Pirates of the Caribbean without Captain Jack Sparrow.
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#60 Jul 09 2013 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I was thinking of The Leader.

And I would LOVE for Disney to get the rights to Spider-Man. I really would. But the sheer amount of cash they stand to gain by doing it regardless is pretty huge.

That said, I'm happy with the reboot series so far. We'll see if they can keep that going, but Garfield is doing a great job, imo.
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#61 Jul 11 2013 at 7:59 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
We'll see if they can keep that going, but Garfield is doing a great job, imo.
I'll just leave this here.
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#62 Jul 11 2013 at 8:01 AM Rating: Good
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He probably has a better chance of them casting a guy than casting anyone black, sadly enough.
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#63 Jul 11 2013 at 8:03 AM Rating: Good
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My problem with it is that Flash Thompson is right there, you know?
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#64 Jul 11 2013 at 8:16 AM Rating: Good
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lol, if you're going to do *** ***, you might as well make it alien *** ***. Hence the popularity of Torchwood.

Side note: Is Doc Ock still Peter Parker?
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#65 Jul 11 2013 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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Yes he is, and it isn't bad but Superior Spider-Man isn't on my pull list any longer.
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#66 Jul 22 2013 at 7:35 AM Rating: Good
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So a little update on The Avengers 2. Looks like it'll be titled Age of Ultron, and lead into the Ant-Man movie.
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#67 Jul 22 2013 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
So a little update on The Avengers 2. Looks like it'll be titled Age of Ultron, and lead into the Ant-Man movie.


Vision will probably be the sub-villain turned hero ala FF: Rise of the Silver Surfer.
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#68 Jul 22 2013 at 8:43 AM Rating: Good
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They're doing the next Avengers before the Ant-Man movie?

I can only imagine the ridiculous success of the first one pushed up the timeline for the sequel, and that Ant-Man was planned to be involved in A2. I mean, not like the Henry and Janet weren't founding members or anything. Smiley: lol

Better to throw Joss directly onto Avengers 2 and constantly hype it, now that people are paying attention to the whole movieverse, instead of just the individual movies.

The downside to SDCC's announcements is that Sony already has 2 more Spidey movies planned, so he almost certainly won't be involved in the Avengers series at all.

Fantastic Four is still an option, since the reboot hasn't had any movement and that could void Fox's IP claim. But, frankly, I hate Reed Richards so much that I'm happier with them staying gone.
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#69 Jul 22 2013 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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Oh, and Kickass 2, with Jim Carrey as Colonel Stars and Stripes. That's going to be ... interesting. I'm most to interested to see Olga Kurkulina as Mother Russia. Not that I know who that is or anything other than from a google search, just that Mother Russia was one of the characters I liked from the second series of books. Trailer NSFW



Edited, Jul 22nd 2013 11:05am by lolgaxe
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#70 Jul 22 2013 at 4:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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This trailer looks so awesome! DO WANT NAOW
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#71 Jul 24 2013 at 8:01 PM Rating: Good
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WANT NAOW NAOW NAOW
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#72 Aug 08 2013 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
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Some leaked footage for X-Men: Days of Future Past. Watch it while you can. Filmed from a phone, only partial, but better than nothing if this is your franchise.
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#73 Aug 09 2013 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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Too late :(
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#74 Aug 19 2013 at 7:48 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry about that. If it makes you feel better you really didn't miss much.

Anyway, here's a little something to go through instead, which will most likely not vanish instantly.
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#75 Aug 30 2013 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
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James Spader for Ultron, apparently. Considering the last one, take with grain of salt.
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#76 Aug 30 2013 at 8:36 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
James Spader for Ultron, apparently. Considering the last one, take with grain of salt.


Well at least that explains how he avoided getting killed Ra by so easily. Adamantium.
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#79 Sep 19 2013 at 9:43 AM Rating: Good
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Just a simple bump and update for Guardians of the Galaxy movie: Looks like Vin Diesel will be voicing Groot. I'm not a particular fan of his, but the better part of me believes even he can't mess up voicing a character who only says three words at most. I ... guess he's a good enough actor to play a tree.
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#80 Oct 05 2013 at 10:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Looks like Vin Diesel will be voicing Groot. I'm not a particular fan of his, but the better part of me believes even he can't mess up voicing a character who only says three words at most.

He did a good job of voice The Iron Giant so I guess he could probably voice a tree.

TherealLogros wrote:
Edit to add: It could get a little awkward if they have to explain for every standalone hero they make a movie with "Oh but Cap and the other Avengers couldn't help him because they were busy doing this and that."

I just saw the movie tonight (hence me being in the thread) but I couldn't shake that especially since they took pains to reference the plot of Avengers repeatedly. There's a terrorist blowing up stuff in the US, taking over command of US telecommunications, hacking the president's cell phone and eventually taking down Air Force One and... nothing? Really? The rest of SHIELD was busy? Captain America had something else to do besides saving the President of the United States of America?

I could have seen a more personal one-on-one type conflict between Iron Man and whoever but when you're bringing direct attacks on the US government into it, it's hard to plausibly believe that everyone else just had other **** to do that week.
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#81 Oct 06 2013 at 4:24 AM Rating: Good
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I think they said in an interview that a big part of the Captain America movie is explaining why the Avengers and SHIELD weren't helping. No other details of what that could be. My go-to guess is that the individual Avengers were all on missions of equal import (less significant POIs, but more significant potential damage), and that SHIELD was in the middle of fending off an aggressive takeover by the world security council.
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#82 Oct 06 2013 at 7:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't recall much from the Captain America movie (probably because it wasn't great) but I certainly don't remember that and if they spent a significant part of the film dwelling on it, I'm a little worried. It had to be in the form of someone talking about it or something since the events obviously predate the Avengers.

But really, if I'm supposed to recall a bit from a different movie franchise several years ago to plug a fairly major plot hole in this movie, the problem ain't on me.
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#83 Oct 06 2013 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I don't recall much from the Captain America movie (probably because it wasn't great) but I certainly don't remember that and if they spent a significant part of the film dwelling on it, I'm a little worried. It had to be in the form of someone talking about it or something since the events obviously predate the Avengers.

But really, if I'm supposed to recall a bit from a different movie franchise several years ago to plug a fairly major plot hole in this movie, the problem ain't on me.

Sorry, I meant the upcoming CA movie - Winter Soldier, which will have a primary cast consisting of both Captain America and Black Widow. And because of the topic area concerned in it, the movie will probably have a plot line with heavy international politics.

Bucky Barnes, Rogers' best friend from the first movie, survives his fall from the train, or something, and is "recruited" into a Soviet supersoldier program, where his identity is surpressed and he becomes the Winter Soldier, or something. In the comics, Black Widow was originally a Soviet spy, so I don't know what they're doing with her plotline, but if they're making her a major player you can be sure Russian relations will be a part of the film.

You also have Thor 2, which will probably be happening simultaneously with both IM3 and CA2 (which I believe are confirmed to be the same approximate time period in the universe). And considering the topic area (Thor fights the Dark Elves, I wouldn't be surprised if SHIELD was focused on preventing a second invasion.

And it seems like the bulk of SHIELD's forces have always been spread thin, dealing with the smaller isolated threats that pop up (which is the basic premise of the new Agents of SHIELD) series, plus a lot of covert work. They're covert ops, primarily, and not really equipped to fight bigger battles (which is why they assembled the Avengers in the first place).

I do remember them promising that the exclusion of SHIELD from the IM3 plot was deliberate and directly built into the plot of CA2. Considering how incredibly common hostile takeovers of alphabet soup organizations are in the Marvel Universe, I wouldn't be surprised if that was the story here.

[EDIT]

I just had to Google to make sure that Dum-E made it out okay. Because I wouldn't have been able to handle that. Smiley: lol

Edited, Oct 6th 2013 7:35pm by idiggory
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#84 Oct 06 2013 at 6:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm still having trouble believing that "Saving the president from an immediate and credible threat" wasn't worth some effort. And there was zero attempt at collaboration with Stark or even attempt to confirm he was alive after his widely reported death.

Simply put, IM3 as its own movie, has a pretty giant plot hole in this regard. Trying to plug it up later in some other movie won't make IM3 work any better as its own product. I still liked the movie and all and no one needs to work too hard to defend it but the whole SHIELD thing was a huge unaddressed elephant in the room and that's just shoddy script writing.
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#85 Oct 06 2013 at 7:26 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I'm still having trouble believing that "Saving the president from an immediate and credible threat" wasn't worth some effort. And there was zero attempt at collaboration with Stark or even attempt to confirm he was alive after his widely reported death.

Simply put, IM3 as its own movie, has a pretty giant plot hole in this regard. Trying to plug it up later in some other movie won't make IM3 work any better as its own product. I still liked the movie and all and no one needs to work too hard to defend it but the whole SHIELD thing was a huge unaddressed elephant in the room and that's just shoddy script writing.


Having finally watched it, I'm willing to agree the extent to which they were missing was jarring.

But as for not saving the president, I'm fine with that. They had no notice of the threat on AFO, because it was reported to the VP who buried it. And then Tony and Rhodey go to save Pepper, who happened to be where they also hauled the President. But no one knew that beforehand.

The only plot explanation I can even come up with is that the entire organization goes dark before the events of the movie even begin, which isn't mentioned in the film because it would be a clear spoiler for an upcoming film. And Extremis is featured in the new Agents of Shield series (with the canon being that the first two episodes being within one week of each other), so we know that stuff takes place after IM3.

Side note: I really don't see Jarvis becoming Ultron. With the change to Extremis to not create cyborgs, and for its utility to be replaced with Jarvis instead, I just don't see them stripping that particular power from Tony in the future. In ways, it's a LOT nicer, because Jarvis has to be limited in a way Extremis Tony wouldn't. And with the decision, it seems, to cut the sheer number of suits down, I don't think the army of Iron Mans will be making another appearance.
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#86 Oct 06 2013 at 10:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Having finally watched it, I'm willing to agree the extent to which they were missing was jarring.

But as for not saving the president, I'm fine with that. They had no notice of the threat on AFO, because it was reported to the VP who buried it.

No, but they did (or should have) know that the Mandarin was blowing up US locations, taking complete control over US telecommunications, had access to the President's phone and shot a man on live television before saying that the president was next.

That seems to warrant a little somethin' somethin' even before the Air Force One incident.

Edited, Oct 6th 2013 11:37pm by Jophiel
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#87 Oct 07 2013 at 6:56 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Having finally watched it, I'm willing to agree the extent to which they were missing was jarring.

But as for not saving the president, I'm fine with that. They had no notice of the threat on AFO, because it was reported to the VP who buried it.

No, but they did (or should have) know that the Mandarin was blowing up US locations, taking complete control over US telecommunications, had access to the President's phone and shot a man on live television before saying that the president was next.

That seems to warrant a little somethin' somethin' even before the Air Force One incident.


Thinking about it, I realize there's actually no good reason for SHIELD to be involved with this, sans the fact that we expect them to be since they're the "special" paramilitary force for the universe.

But SHIELD isn't the DoD, and they don't handle terrorist incidents unless they're in their jurisdiction (which is essentially to handle all the "weird" stuff that other military forces aren't equipped to deal with).

Until Extremis was revealed, the Mandarin was just a terrorist, and the military and government were treating him as such. That was the point of the front - get the people hating the terrorist, and then wipe out the terrorist with Extremis technology to push their think tank to the top of the industry.

TONY learns about Extremis relatively early, but he's notorious for not playing nice with Fury. It would be extremely out of character for him to send a memo to SHIELD requesting assistance unless he REALLY needed it, particularly when he's in the middle of an emotional crisis.

We know they were watching the incidents, since Tony uses some of their data to construct his own investigation. But the point of the Mandarin front was to hide Extremis' existence. The lack of bomb casings was definitely mysterious, and is probably why they were watching it, but without any evidence to suggest it would be in their jurisdiction, there's no way that the DoD would punt the case over to an quasi-international, covert organization instead of handling it firmly in-house.

Shield isn't homeland security. It's just not what they do.
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#88 Oct 07 2013 at 7:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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SHIELD in the film is the Strategic Homeland Intervention, Enforcement, and Logistics Division. It has Homeland right there in the name. Seriously, I'm supposed to believe that there's a US government agency with access to superheroes that responds to imminent threats against the Commander-in-Chief with "Welp, not our problem..."?

"Should we send Captain America to help defend the president from the guy who says he'll kill the president and has demonstrated the ability to do so?*" "Nah, it's not a space monster. If Secret Service can't do it, sucks to be the president..."

*Including the ability to get three military helicopters through US airspace and blowing the crap out of a structure with repeated missile strikes.

Then again, this is the same government that's apparently cool with anyone in a metal suit wandering aboard Air Force One without even asking to see his face or hear his voice. Crack security all around Smiley: laugh

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 8:15am by Jophiel
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#89 Oct 07 2013 at 7:53 AM Rating: Good
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What about any of these films has made you think that SHIELD's typical operating procedure is "throw some superheroes at it"?

Plus, the president already had one super protecting him. Considering the total number of superhero assets at Shield's disposal, I'm thinking they probably decided the Iron Patriot was sufficient.

Also, technically speaking, Cap is retired. He came out of retirement in the face of global annihilation, but at no point in the established plot has he become an active member of SHIELD. He's not Fury's to order around. It's possible that has changed at this point in the plot, pending the next movies, but we don't know that. So we should really be going off the previous movie's precedent that Cap serves at will.

[EDIT]

Again, though, the conflicts between SHIELD and other military/political units has always been a big part of their story lines. And considering they're a shadow operation, it's not like a lot of people are clamoring to put everything under their dominion. Particularly when it's the president's safety (which is its own military unit to begin with).

SHIELD has direct jurisdiction over a very particular kind of threat. Everything else, they offer aid and assistance on request. Which they don't get too frequently.

[EDIT]

We live in a world where 20 people can shut down the government and you're surprised some military helicopters could take out a Californian mansion? I bet the people manning the radar were cheering them on. Smiley: lol

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 10:00am by idiggory
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#90 Oct 07 2013 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
What about any of these films has made you think that SHIELD's typical operating procedure is "throw some superheroes at it"?

Probably just because every single dealing of SHIELD shown in the films has them working with superheroes?

But, aside from that, nothing Smiley: laugh

Here's the thing: When you explicitly reference the previous film over and over, making it a fairly sizable plot point (although a lamely resolved one) and have other characters refer to Stark "Hanging out with the Super Friends", etc then it shouldn't be left up to the audience to fanwank some reason why the others weren't involved. Even a few lines along the vein of "Your friends active in this?" "No need, the government has Iron Patriot" would have done wonders. The film dropped the ball on it, whatever retroactive covering anyone else wants to do on their behalf.

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 9:14am by Jophiel
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#91 Oct 07 2013 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
What about any of these films has made you think that SHIELD's typical operating procedure is "throw some superheroes at it"?

Probably just because every single dealing of SHIELD shown in the films has them working with superheroes?

But, aside from that, nothing Smiley: laugh


First film, the military handles the Hulk because he's technically related to an army research project. SHIELD only provides intel. It's one-shot has Tony going to talk to the General, because the political side of things are leaning on Fury to replace the Hulk with the Abomination in the Avengers, and Fury needs a high-power military force to counter them by refusing.

Iron Man, SHIELD tries to contain Tony. But they clearly aren't trying that hard at first. Though once the scope of his capabilities is understood, and they realize he could be either a risk or an asset, they step up their game. Pepper directly involves them in the Iron Monger incident, so we don't really know whether or not they'd have taken over that from the start otherwise.

Iron Man 2, SHIELD steps in when Tony becomes a risk, but otherwise they aren't involved with Iron Man at all. He doesn't take missions from them, they don't give him missions. They place Romanoff on him because they know he could be dangerous, and they need someone internal to keep him (and possibly that big stock of Stark Industries weapons in storage) in check. They didn't expect whatshisname to attack; that was a surprise. And they STILL don't take point on that investigation. We see nothing of them trying to put him in their own containment unit, he just goes into a normal French prison and never gets interrogated (that we can see) by SHIELD.

It isn't until he and Hammer unleash an army of drones to attack the Expo that they do anything, and that's because it's damage control of a direct and imminent threat.

Thor, they go to investigate a series of mysterious artifact that has appeared in the desert, which is pretty much textbook for what their mission is at this point. They make contact with Thor, and they interrogate his connection to them, but that's all pretty standard. At first, he's someone who invaded their base. Then he turns out to be an alien. Both in their jurisdiction.

Also interesting to note that Fury makes it clear that the "situation in New Mexico" is a much bigger priority to him than Tony's meltdown. As in, Fury's attention is on a mysterious object that just appeared, and not on the self-destructing super hero.

Captain America, SHIELD isn't involved until he wakes up. And that's unsurprising, since he's definitely in the realm of weird.

Avengers is realistically the first time SHIELD switches to "work with" superheroes instead of "containment of."

Now we have a human terrorist in Iron Man 3. Why would SHIELD be involved? There's an entire military unit dedicated to the protection of the president, and then multiple others that focus on dealing with homeland and international terrorist threats.

SHIELD doesn't exist to handle those.

Quote:
Here's the thing: When you explicitly reference the previous film over and over, making it a fairly sizable plot point (although a lamely resolved one) and have other characters refer to Stark "Hanging out with the Super Friends", etc then it shouldn't be left up to the audience to fanwank some reason why the others weren't involved. Even a few lines along the vein of "Your friends active in this?" "No need, the government has Iron Patriot" would have done wonders. The film dropped the ball on it, whatever retroactive covering anyone else wants to do on their behalf.


That's essentially exactly what the movie did? They brought out the Iron Patriot at a press conference when the government announced he was the center of their plan to handle the Mandarin situation, and then we saw the Iron Patriot going around the world attempting to handle the Mandarin situation. And at no point was Tony involved in the Mandarin situation until he decided to introduce himself into it after Happy got hurt.

And then there was the whole side part of the AIM program, which was the re-branding program that went along with said plan to make Iron Patriot the face (and body) of the anti-Mandarin unit.

And then we see Rhodey continue to be central to the "protect the president" plot line for the whole movie...

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 10:33am by idiggory
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#92 Oct 07 2013 at 8:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Avengers is realistically the first time SHIELD switches to "work with" superheroes instead of "containment of."

By "the films", I'm referring primarily to the Iron Man franchise (i.e. films with IM in them). Which is one film of SHIELD trying to talk to and recruit Stark, one film of them working with Stark and one film of a bunch of heroes & Stark saving the universe. It is established that Coulson is a US Government agent. That line alone discredits just about any "Oh, but they don't save the president from terrorists" excuse. You think there's branches among the CIA, DOD, FBI, Secret Service, etc who would say "Meh, not our job" in responding to an immediate threat on the president? The friggin' Security Exchanges Commission would be lending aid if it were practical. But not the Strategic Homeland Intervention, Enforcement, and Logistics Division?

There's really no intelligent "Yeah, this US agency doesn't give a sh*t 'cause it's not their job" excuse for this. It was just sloppy writing.
Quote:
That's essentially exactly what the movie did?

No, it's not. They didn't reference SHIELD at all in relation to Iron Patriot. Should I assume the FBI stopped looking for Mandarin because of Iron Patriot? The Secret Service? CIA? They all said "Hey, Iron Patriot... let's break for lunch"? Of course not.

Remembering back, the first time the Strategic Homeland Intervention, Enforcement, and Logistics Division folks want to talk to Tony, "Iron Man" doesn't even exist yet. They're looking to talk to him (apparently) because he just escaped/returned from a major terrorist leader and want to debrief him. But I guess they stopped caring about major terrorists since then.

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 9:51am by Jophiel
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#93 Oct 07 2013 at 9:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Speaking of Iron Patriot, Rhoady (?) is an active member of the US Air Force operating under DOD command, isn't he? I'd think that Iron Patriot operating in the US would be a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act Smiley: grin
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#94 Oct 07 2013 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, if the president was in front of them, and they in danger, obviously they'd save him. But a general terrorist threat of death to the president? Of course they aren't going to be too extensively involved. The Secret Service exists for a reason. If it was needed, they'd obviously lend support. But that's not the same thing as coming in and taking up bodyguard duty on the off chance the Mandarin could actually take out the President.

But considering the president wasn't at risk until his abduction on Air Force One, I don't expect SHIELD was too actively a part of the Mandarin investigation. Afterwards? Probably. If they had found out that the Iron Patriot armor was stolen? Definitely.

But that doesn't mean they knew where to find him. Tony and Rhodey (or however you spell it) went after Pepper and found the President. If SHIELD knew where he was, then sure - they'd probably be in charge of dealing with the Iron Patriot. But other than that, I don't see why there's any reason to bring them into things.

The only point I think their absence was glaring was at the wreckage of Tony's house after it was taken out. Someone possibly just took out one of their assets, for one, and there's pretty high looting potential for tech they don't want in general hands.

Other than that, I'm okay with their absence. I'm a little surprised the end scene wasn't Tony and Fury, with Tony gloating or something. But I can't say I'm upset, because I like getting some information about Banner.
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#95 Oct 07 2013 at 9:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yeah, if the president was in front of them, and they in danger, obviously they'd save him. But a general terrorist threat of death to the president? Of course they aren't going to be too extensively involved. The Secret Service exists for a reason.

Right, just like the FBI, CIA, etc wouldn't be involved so why would the Strategic Homeland Intervention, Enforcement, and Logistics Division be involved in a major domestic terrorist threat? There's no homeland intervention or enforcement to be done in stopping major domestic terrorists from killing the US president.

Smiley: dubious
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#96 Oct 07 2013 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yeah, if the president was in front of them, and they in danger, obviously they'd save him. But a general terrorist threat of death to the president? Of course they aren't going to be too extensively involved. The Secret Service exists for a reason.

Right, just like the FBI, CIA, etc wouldn't be involved so why would the Strategic Homeland Intervention, Enforcement, and Logistics Division be involved in a major domestic terrorist threat? There's no homeland intervention or enforcement to be done in stopping major domestic terrorists from killing the US president.

Smiley: dubious


Yeah, except Strategic means just that - Strategic. And "Homeland" doesn't mean the United States.

SHIELD answers directly to Fury, and they are overseen by the World Security Council, which is an international governing body in that universe. They are NOT controlled by the United States Government, nor does Fury answer to the President in any particular way beyond the fact that he's an American.

The President couldn't have ordered them to protect him if he wanted to. He could request it, and they could offer, but it's not their duty to favor any one nations commonplace domestic threats. I'm sure they were looking at the Mandarin, because he was an international threat. But as long as there were other units capable of handling him, and he was more directly under their jurisdiction, they wouldn't be doing much but add logistics support. Between the Avengers and the new Agents series, that's pretty clear. Fury never bothers talking to US units about the attack on NYC, he contacts the WSC. Episode 2 of the SHIELD show has them working in Peru, and then disposing of a weapon because they believe it would be too problematic for the world's balance for any government to own it.

Even in the comics and the cartoons, the Avengers Assemble to handle significant threats, not to fight the war in the Middle East. If they find out there's a nuke set to go off in a city, they might act. But until there's actually a sign that an attack is imminent, they're not mobilizing.

Do they care if the president lives or dies? Sure. Are they going to assist in a crisis? Certainly. Just like they'd assist Italy or China or India.

But the point is that they're the STRATEGIC intervention division. They deal with a very particular kind of threat, or are brought in when things get really bad. They would not have been involved with this general terror threat until the President's life was actually at risk, and that didn't occur until Iron Patriot was stolen. Had the VP not been compromised, they probably would have mobilized then. And they possibly would have been able to track the Iron Patriot from AFO to the ship and take action.

They just aren't remotely the same thing as the CIA or the FBI. They're more like if the UN had a paramilitary force with a flying, mobile headquarters.
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#97 Oct 07 2013 at 11:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah well, your mom.

Really, you might be technically correct (I'm not about to start combing movie scripts to make a case) but if it takes an internet argument to get to it, it was a failing of the film. Even my wife who actually used to read comics and is familiar with the base material thought it was very strange.
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#98 Oct 07 2013 at 11:09 AM Rating: Good
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#99 Oct 07 2013 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Yeah well, your mom.

Really, you might be technically correct (I'm not about to start combing movie scripts to make a case) but if it takes an internet argument to get to it, it was a failing of the film. Even my wife who actually used to read comics and is familiar with the base material thought it was very strange.


And to be 100% fair, I totally agree with you that the sheer lack of SHIELD was jarring. They only mentioned them once, and that was when Tony was compiling his file on the Mandarin.

I think they should have been at Tony's house after the blast, and I'm surprised that Pepper never tried to contact them post-blast (when she had the other scientist woman with her).

I am okay with them not being a part of the action, due to the timeline. But, I also agree that the movie might have been stronger if they were able to take a bigger part in the events. I wouldn't have minded some Romanoff and Barton action.

I guess the other part is that they structured this story under Tony's narration, which gives them more wiggle room to retcon SHIELD into the events. Though that works MUCH better in print form than in movies.

This definitely wasn't my favorite of the Marvel films so far. I'd say that order is Avengers > Thor > Iron Man > Captain America = Iron Man 3 > Iron Man 2.

Though, to be fair, there's a pretty big gap between IM3 and IM2. Smiley: lol
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#100 Oct 07 2013 at 1:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
This definitely wasn't my favorite of the Marvel films so far. I'd say that order is Avengers > Thor > Iron Man > Captain America = Iron Man 3 > Iron Man 2.


I'm not completely sure but isn't the Hulk with Edward Norton considered part of this Marvel Movieverse? It's all a bit distant in my memories but the first scene with Ruffalo in The Avengers seemed to fit with The Incredible Hulk.

Edited for clarity.

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 3:13pm by TherealLogros
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#101 Oct 07 2013 at 1:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Though, to be fair, there's a pretty big gap between IM3 and IM2. Smiley: lol

Sure, but was Iron Man 2 worse than Spiderman 3?
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