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#77 May 01 2013 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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TherealLogros wrote:
He is most likely the son of Rhaegar and the late Lyanna Stark. Robert always said how Rhaegar raped her etc etc. But the Rhaegar Barristan Selmy recalls would never do such a thing. Lyanna fell in love with her captor and had a child with him. The reason she died was not some kind of torture but a difficult birth labor. It would explain why Ned is so adamant in keeping the secret about Jons mother. And he would not have besmirched his honor. It also fits with Neds memories of her last moments in which she pleaded with him "Promise me, Ned. Promise me." Or something similar.
Edited, May 1st 2013 8:45am by TherealLogros

That's certainly the impression I get regarding Jon. Based upon all the information anyway. I guess we'll only ever know if Howland Reed decides to get chatty. Smiley: tongue

Edited, May 1st 2013 12:29pm by Nilatai
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#78 May 01 2013 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah I'm well aware of the R+L=J theory. It does fit well with the story. But I never underestimate GRRM's capacity to surprise me. I guess I'm over the whole R+L=J thing because *everyone* who's read the books believes in it already. It just won't be a surprise if it turns out to be Jon's real backstory after all.
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#79 May 01 2013 at 12:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aripyanfar wrote:
Yeah I'm well aware of the R+L=J theory. It does fit well with the story. But I never underestimate GRRM's capacity to surprise me. I guess I'm over the whole R+L=J thing because *everyone* who's read the books believes in it already. It just won't be a surprise if it turns out to be Jon's real backstory after all.

I'm kinda rooting for this theory to be true, but then it turns out that at the end of book 5 Jon really did die permanently. So it turns out the destined hero of the age is already dead, and Westeros is screwed Smiley: lol

Bonus points if Jon wargs out to his direwolf, and later wargs a dragon to take down the White Walkers Smiley: tongue
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#80 May 01 2013 at 2:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
I'm kinda rooting for this theory to be true, but then it turns out that at the end of book 5 Jon really did die permanently. So it turns out the destined hero of the age is already dead, and Westeros is screwed Smiley: lol

Bonus points if Jon wargs out to his direwolf, and later wargs a dragon to take down the White Walkers Smiley: tongue


Sure he died? I took it he got seriously injured but I believe that he's dead when we get a POV chapter from another character starring down at his carcass. He 'just' got stabbed and passed out imo.
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#81 May 01 2013 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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TherealLogros wrote:
LockeColeMA wrote:
I'm kinda rooting for this theory to be true, but then it turns out that at the end of book 5 Jon really did die permanently. So it turns out the destined hero of the age is already dead, and Westeros is screwed Smiley: lol

Bonus points if Jon wargs out to his direwolf, and later wargs a dragon to take down the White Walkers Smiley: tongue


Sure he died? I took it he got seriously injured but I believe that he's dead when we get a POV chapter from another character starring down at his carcass. He 'just' got stabbed and passed out imo.


Agreed. I don't think it's even going to be a warging thing. I think Lord Snow's gonna wake up in poor condition, but alive somewhere. My guess is it'd be a late chapter in the next book - that GRRM lets the readers sweat about his fate for a bit.
#82 May 01 2013 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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TherealLogros wrote:
LockeColeMA wrote:
I'm kinda rooting for this theory to be true, but then it turns out that at the end of book 5 Jon really did die permanently. So it turns out the destined hero of the age is already dead, and Westeros is screwed Smiley: lol

Bonus points if Jon wargs out to his direwolf, and later wargs a dragon to take down the White Walkers Smiley: tongue


Sure he died? I took it he got seriously injured but I believe that he's dead when we get a POV chapter from another character starring down at his carcass. He 'just' got stabbed and passed out imo.

I think this is what most people would want to have happen, but GRRM isn't one for letting favorite characters live. While it would be fine if this is how things work out, I'll actually be disappointed if it goes that way (similarly to how I was happy-but-also-disappointed that Brienne seems to have survived her hanging). I want to see my favorite characters survive, but I don't want them to suddenly develop plot armor this late into the series. Up until now, the cardinal rule seems to have been "GRRM has a death lottery, and your favorite characters' number ALWAYS comes up eventually."*

*Edit: Or they get seriously beaten up/scarred/maimed. Still, when someone dies, it's usually pretty certain they're dead. Well, besides Stoneheart Smiley: tongue

Edited, May 1st 2013 4:57pm by LockeColeMA
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#83 May 01 2013 at 5:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's not so much that I don't want him to die. It's more that I don't think it would make much sense for the overall story to kill him off now. Granted, that's only my very limited view and opinion but I just can't see the Wall/Wildling/Winterfell storylines progress in a meaningful way with him dead.

As long as Jaime lives on he can kill every single other character for all I care. Smiley: lol
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#84 May 02 2013 at 5:22 AM Rating: Good
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Except Tyrion. He's not allowed to die, because reasons.
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#85 May 02 2013 at 7:06 AM Rating: Good
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It's really hard to pick the one person who's going to be alive at the end of the series.

Varys would seem to have the best interests of the realm at his heart, but I kind of expect a more ironic outcome. Like Sansa. Sorry if I'm not spoiler tagging everything, I'm kinda beat.

Edited, May 2nd 2013 9:07am by Aripyanfar
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#86 May 02 2013 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Martin doesn't kill favorite characters. He has set pieces in mind for big deaths, but he also has clearly avoided killing anyone really beloved by readers. Ned's death was a set piece to tell people that normal high fantasy "Honor" would get you killed in his world. Rob's death was another set piece, and while the scene is memorable, the idea that Rob was a beloved character is idiotic. His death is memorable for the betrayal more than his removal from the storyline. It's also visible 1000 miles away. "Boy king is making a will to name his brother Dark Fantasy Mary Sue his heir? Well, he *definitely* won't die any time soon."

Jon's character is so comically the character fantasy readers identify as the protagonist with it's amazing that anyone thinks he could possibly die in any meaningful sort of way before the last book. He's a cartoon. All of his "flaws" are along the lines of "loves too passionately" or "cares too much about the realm". Let's review the tropes involved in this character you somehow believe there's any chance of being dead:

Loner outsider with no real friends: Check
Great warrior: Check
Borderline manga style super pet: Albino dire-wolf? Really, George?: Check
Virgin who's awesome at *** almost immediately: Check
Magical powers?: Check
Daddy issues: Check
Born leader: Check
Reprograms Starfleet Computer to allow him to "win": Che...oh wait. That should be: So beloved by his friends that they engineer a way for him to be Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, so he's not only granted a super-powerful position, he remains humble by not dirtying his hands manipulating the process: Check
'Revolutionary' ideas that are idiotically simple:"Borrow money instead of starving to death, maybe?" "Jon, you're a genius!"
Wins over savages to the white man's grace by "understanding" their customs and beliefs almost instantly: Check
Slays undead: Check
Defeats a vastly larger force with moronic techniques and "strategy" with a large dash of deus ex machina at the last minute?: Check

You REALLY believe THIS character is going to die? Really? The outsider ******* with the albino wolf who has recently been named in a will to be the heir to Winterfel, who is stabbed in near proximity to a priestess of a religion that can resurrect people? A character who we've been informed can project his being into other animals or people? A character who is attacked in a book ending cliffhanger who happens to need a way to free himself from the oath he took to the Watch that lasts until his "death". REALLY?

Don't be such a sucker. Of course he's not dead. Is he "dead"? Probably, to free him from the Watch oath, because as we know, little Jonny Snow Snow and his wolf Ghost would never betray the Watch willingly. No, Reluctant Hero Jon has to be provided with everything on a silver platter of plot armor to preserve his nobility. His story arc probably ends with him refusing to be king, no matter how much everyone begs him to be, then killing himself to save the world.


Edited, May 2nd 2013 10:58am by Smasharoo
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#87 May 02 2013 at 7:58 AM Rating: Good
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Gonna have to go with Smash on this one.



Sansa stands atop a pile of bodies 3 stories tall, a kitchen knife in hand. The entire world is on fire.

"I....I just wanted to be a princess." she stammers.



"WAS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK?!"
#88 May 02 2013 at 8:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Okay you don't like Jon. That's fine. But you could put anything that happens past the 2nd book/season 2 in spoiler tags. Not everyone here is at the end of book 5 already...

Edit:

Smasharoo wrote:


Loner outsider with no real friends: Check <- Not true. He had Robb and to a lesser degree because of the age difference Bran. In the Nightwatch he has plenty of friends. Grenn, Pyp, the fat one.
Great warrior: Check <- Because he received intensive training his whole life by Ned Stark and the white bearded fellow. I don't think he's superior to Robb in that respect. And he would not stand a chance against Jaime (with both hands), the Red Viper, one of the Cleganes or someone other in their league.
Borderline manga style super pet: Albino dire-wolf? Really, George?: Check <- A trait he shares with all his 'siblings'. The albino part is a bit over the top but at least it makes sense stoywise.
Virgin who's awesome at *** almost immediately: Check <- Okay that was ridiculous.
Magical powers?: Check <- Shared with his siblings again. And he's not even close to Bran.
Daddy issues: Check <- Comes with being a *******/adopted.
Born leader: Check<- Again that is due to his uprising. He is not a better leader than Robb.
So beloved by his friends that they engineer a way for him to be Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, so he's not only granted a super-powerful position, he remains humble by not dirtying his hands manipulating the process: Check <- A bit of a stretch, yes.
'Revolutionary' ideas that are idiotically simple:"Borrow money instead of starving to death, maybe?" "Jon, you're a genius!" <- Can't comment on that one. Maybe it was this retarded. Maybe Bowen Marsh would have done the same but never got the chance.
Wins over savages to the white man's grace by "understanding" their customs and beliefs almost instantly: Check <- Most of them don't really like him. Only the ones that know him from the time he spent with them. He just was in a position to dictate them how it's gonna be.
Slays undead: Check <- He's not the only one. Even the fat one kills one of the Others und thus earnes his title Slayer.
Defeats a vastly larger force with moronic techniques and "strategy" with a large dash of deus ex machina at the last minute?: Check <- He pretty much did what anyone in this position would have done. And it was enough to hold the enemy at bay long enough. Don't see a problem here.


Edited, May 2nd 2013 10:48am by TherealLogros
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#89 May 02 2013 at 8:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
Buzzkill

I think you just perfectly outlined why I think he should die Smiley: glare
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#90 May 02 2013 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
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But you could put anything that happens past the 2nd book/season 2 in spoiler tags.

Sure.

Not everyone here is at the end of book 5 already...

Sounds like THEIR problem, not mine. Also, let's be realistic. There are about 9 people in the world who don't know that Robb is betrayed and killed in a vicious fashion by Roose Bolton at Edmure's wedding, or that Cat also dies but is resurrected by Thoros when Dondarrian sacrifices his life to bring her to life If these people exist, they shouldn't read internet forums about the show. They shouldn't read the comments in episode recaps, etc. I'm not out to "spoil" anyone's experience, but I'm also not going to go through a cumbersome process to "protect" it. Read the fucking books. Or don't, I don't care. If you don't want to know what happens in future books, avoid places where that might happen. Relying on others not to "spoil" it for you is a guarantee that it will be. Which is probably what most people want, anyway.

Also, Arrya kills Sansa in tWoW. You're welcome.


Edit: I changed my mind, it's not the Asylum, I guess.

Edited, May 2nd 2013 10:56am by Smasharoo
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#91 May 02 2013 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
Gratuitous spoilers


Smasharoo wrote:
I'm not out to "spoil" anyone's experience



Sure you aren't, hon.

Sure.
#92 May 02 2013 at 8:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Sure you aren't, hon.

You convinced me. Seriously though, if you think there's *anyone* reading this that doesn't immediately click on the "spoiler" tag, you're delusional.
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#93 May 02 2013 at 9:03 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
Sure you aren't, hon.

You convinced me. Seriously though, if you think there's *anyone* reading this that doesn't immediately click on the "spoiler" tag, you're delusional.


Mmm. I went through the entirety of the Bioshock Infinite thread here without clicking a one until I made it through the game. I can only speak for myself, but I doubt I'm some special beacon of self-restraint. I ate a cinnabon this morning, after all.

But let's focus on your schadenfreude, eh?
#94 May 02 2013 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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Compare Dany tropes to JS...

Ungodly beautiful
Heir to the throne
abused by family
turns her barbarian husband into a softy after she teaches him how to have amazing *** (as a virgin)
Hatches dragons
Lives thorugh fire
Survives dehydration, starvation and chiggers
gets oral *** from her bffs whenever she feels pouty
has deposed knights following her around
defeats the Warlocks with ease
Secures thousands of fighting slaves

I've envisioned the end-game as JS and DT at the wall fighting off the white-walkers with dragon fire and dragon glass while Tyrion and Sansa get the kingdoms in order and provide assistance. If Tyrion lives he'll end up at the wall for some reason or another.

Arya and the Hound will help and protect Bran and Co while they journey into the wild to find some secret thingy or another that will stop/kill the evil-boss.


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#95 May 02 2013 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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Okay you don't like Jon.

I like him fine, I also know what he is. He's an archetype. He's not written for me, he's written for other personality types, but he's FULLY plot armored. Arrya and Tyrion and written for me. They also have no chance of dying anytime soon. Brianne is written for female readers, she can't die, soon either. When she was "hung" I laughed. They're all broad archetypes, it's a pop novel. If it was really striving to be more "realistic" Tywin would engineer everyone's death and laugh about it without consequence, and no one would read the ensuing 90 page novella. This isn't a Don DeLillo novel, it's melodrama. I enjoy melodrama, but I don't have to pretend it's brave or groundbreaking. It's well executed. It's not "The Wheel of Time" or Goodkind or whatever other sh*tty Tolkien ripoff series of the moment people are reading. It makes use of broad Western myths and European history as templates for what's obviously a soap opera. I like it. I tell people who like genre fantasy that they should read it. Pretending that Martin defies convention and tropes is the highest form of fantasy, however.

Edited, May 2nd 2013 11:10am by Smasharoo
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#96 May 02 2013 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Mmm. I went through the entirety of the Bioshock Infinite thread here without clicking a one until I made it through the game. I can only speak for myself, but I doubt I'm some special beacon of self-restraint.


You can see how that's distinct from someone playing that game 16 years from now still avoiding them, right?
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#97 May 02 2013 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
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I'm particularly interested in the dynamic between the fire god and the "cold" elements. Both seem to have a fairly obvious "evil" component, and though Dany w/ her dragons seem like a benevolent embodiment of the fire side, I'm not so sure that a benevolent "cold" force won't manifest, too.

Mostly, I don't think this will ultimately boil down to a straightforward "forces of fire/good vs. forces of cold/evil" kind of arrangement.
#98 May 02 2013 at 9:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Compare Dany tropes to JS...

Yeah, she's also an archetype, and poorly, poorly, written. I actively dislike her character, I don't think that was the author's intent.

I've envisioned the end-game as JS and DT at the wall fighting off the white-walkers with dragon fire and dragon glass while Tyrion and Sansa get the kingdoms in order and provide assistance. If Tyrion lives he'll end up at the wall for some reason or another.


There's not going to be a wall, don't be silly. There's not a bigger Checkov's Gun in the series than the wall coming down. Without that, all of the magic stuff is meaningless to the story in any real way.



Arya and the Hound will help and protect Bran and Co while they journey into the wild to find some secret thingy or another that will stop/kill the evil-boss.


Someone has to be Frodo, at some point. It's not completely clear at the moment if it's the deep North that's Mordor or if it's Valaryia. Possibly both. The North is the safer bet, of course. Benjen returns with yadda yadda MacGuffin and someone has to go destroy/sacraftice himself, whatever somewhere in the far North. Probably Rickon.
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#99 May 02 2013 at 9:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm particularly interested in the dynamic between the fire god and the "cold" elements. Both seem to have a fairly obvious "evil" component, and though Dany w/ her dragons seem like a benevolent embodiment of the fire side

She's going to go mad, pretty obviously. There's zero chance this series ends without her demonstrating "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" as a morality play.
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#100 May 02 2013 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
I'm particularly interested in the dynamic between the fire god and the "cold" elements. Both seem to have a fairly obvious "evil" component, and though Dany w/ her dragons seem like a benevolent embodiment of the fire side

She's going to go mad, pretty obviously. There's zero chance this series ends without her demonstrating "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" as a morality play.


Yeah, I think that's definitely in play. The great literary irony of Dany being on the wrong end of one of those infamous Targaryean "coil flips".

What characters do you like, Smash?
#101 May 02 2013 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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Here's a question:

If the unsullied are touched by ice and turned into white-walkers, would they still feel compelled to 'obey' their master? (I know technically Dany's unsullied are not slaves anymore but perhaps mortal death would cause their slave training to resurface)
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