Although it was a well-acted film with nice performances, man it was stupid as hell. O HAI lets stop the drilling of earth by blowing up the drill...yet they didn't think to do that before Vulcan was pulped. Instead, they had to drop kirk and sulu manually onto the platform.
O HAI, I'm young james t kirk who tries to outrun a flying vehicle by driving my dad's car off of a cliff.
I am also the same james t kirk who is smuggled onto the enterprise, and rather than being tossed into the brig, manages to successfully warn them of impending doom by logic so flimsy it begs belief.
Let alone the whole mining ship from 120 years in the future capable of pwning entire warship fleets. It is also covered in gratuitous spikes, is ten times bigger than warships, and seems to have a boatload of advanced photon torpedos. Plus, the whole "Romulans are really grungy guys with tattoos" kick.
O HAI I'm spock, but don't tell other me because of paradoxes. No wait, I lied just to get you two to become friends, despite me in the end telling you I lied so you two would become friends.
Hi, I am spock who is a trained, logical starfleet officer considered once of the highest in my generation. I can be easily punked off of my command in 3 minutes by Matt Damon asking if I feel stuff. I am emotionally compromised, yet James T Kirk, who lost his father by the same person, and who's whole argument to spock before spock iced him was to go after the ship for revenge, isn't.
Just so much suspension of belief is possible before the movie becomes a farce. What the hell did Uhuru see in Spock? They never interact before, and then suddenly she is kissing him in the lift?
I'm not even talking about normal trek *****-ups. Sending sulu and kirk down to disbale a platform is fine, because in the old series they'd do the same thing, despite instead having a trained security staff on the vessel you'd think that would specialize in such things. Just like dumb crap. Spock can't tell himself about his existence, because of the friendship being required, but oh hell, lets just radically alter the timeline by telling scotty how to discover transporting objects onto warping vessels maybe BILLIONS of miles away years in advance.
J.J abrams needs to quit the strobes and shakycams too. That whole red matter imploding thing was killer on the eyes. And also DURRRRRR we know detonating red matter creates a singularity which transforms into a black hole, so lets just STAND STILL, watch it happen, and then get sucked in.
I wasn't keen on the idea of a remake, but I was willing to suspend feeling and go watch it with family, but man, I didn't expect it to be so absurd.
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Wow, Star trek was stupid. *spoilers*Follow
Welcome to last month.
Most of these points had already been discussed in great detail in the other thread.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=5;mid=124250127173316293;num=18;page=1
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=5;mid=1241752677168711684;num=15;page=1
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=5;mid=1241777937271744024;num=49;page=1
Edit:
Seriously, they are even all on this page!
Edited, Jun 20th 2009 5:08pm by TirithRR
Most of these points had already been discussed in great detail in the other thread.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=5;mid=124250127173316293;num=18;page=1
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=5;mid=1241752677168711684;num=15;page=1
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=5;mid=1241777937271744024;num=49;page=1
Edit:
Seriously, they are even all on this page!
Edited, Jun 20th 2009 5:08pm by TirithRR
Can't sleep, clown will eat me.
The Neispace of Doom wrote:
but man, I didn't expect it to be so absurd.
I don't see how you could have expected anything else. First, it was J.J. Abrams, and nothing he's worked on has ever been good. Second, it was clearly a mass market movie armed at gathering as many viewers as possible. Clearly it was going to suck for the same reasons Spiderman 3 sucked, for the same reasons Transformers sucked, and for the same reasons the next pop culture icon movie will suck.
Oh come on... Fringe isn't bad.
Can't sleep, clown will eat me.
Allegory wrote:
The Neispace of Doom wrote:
but man, I didn't expect it to be so absurd.
I don't see how you could have expected anything else. First, it was J.J. Abrams, and nothing he's worked on has ever been good. Second, it was clearly a mass market movie armed at gathering as many viewers as possible. Clearly it was going to suck for the same reasons Spiderman 3 sucked, for the same reasons Transformers sucked, and for the same reasons the next pop culture icon movie will suck.
Heh, we really had totally different tastes in movies.
Spiderman 3 was extremely superior to the second one, even better than the first one. Transformers was fun and entertaining and this new Star Trek was a good movie, with some stupid scenes in it.
Most of the OP's problems are present in about all the Star Trek movies, if not series too.
Zieveraar wrote:
Heh, we really had totally different tastes in movies.
We certainly do.
Zieveraar wrote:
Spiderman 3 was extremely superior to the second one, even better than the first one. Transformers was fun and entertaining and this new Star Trek was a good movie, with some stupid scenes in it.
I usppose I have two main complaints about these types of movies.
1. The films are entirely formulaic. They're going for the widest appeal possible, and this has been perfected into five components: action, high budget special effects, comedy, love subplot, drama. These may sound like fairly generic components you could find in most any movie, but there is proof. First, you will always find each of these components; Spiderman, Hulk, Transformers, Ironman, Fantastic 4, etc. Not one of these films lacks any one of these components. Second, you will only find the elements in the films. Not one of those films include horror, not one includes mystery, not one includes adventure.
2. The writing is absolutely horrible. Transformers for example, Bumble helps Sam woo his girl and he and the rest of the autobots are sneaking around from Sam's parents so that they don't find out. These are robots on a mission to "save the earth," and obtain an object infinitely important to them, and they're hiding from a teen's parents. I realise the scenes were done for the sake of the love subplot and for comedy, but it was at significant expense to the story. LAter, once they have the allspark in their possession, Sam still carries it. There is absolutely no reason why he should still be in the movie. He only slows them down, but he is forced to carry it around so that the audience can continue to live vicariously through his character. It would be less ridiculous if he suddenly gained jedi powers and single handedly defeated Megatron just so that they could add in more special effects.
The people I talked to who liked the movie basically wrote off the story entirely, saying that's not the point of the movie. They watch it for the 15 minutes of special effect action sequences. To me that like buying a pack of chocolate chip cookies, picking out all the chocolate chips, and then throwing the rest of the cookie away.
Quote:
I usppose I have two main complaints about these types of movies.
1. The films are entirely formulaic. They're going for the widest appeal possible, and this has been perfected into five components: action, high budget special effects, comedy, love subplot, drama. These may sound like fairly generic components you could find in most any movie, but there is proof. First, you will always find each of these components; Spiderman, Hulk, Transformers, Ironman, Fantastic 4, etc. Not one of these films lacks any one of these components. Second, you will only find the elements in the films. Not one of those films include horror, not one includes mystery, not one includes adventure.
2. The writing is absolutely horrible. Transformers for example, Bumble helps Sam woo his girl and he and the rest of the autobots are sneaking around from Sam's parents so that they don't find out. These are robots on a mission to "save the earth," and obtain an object infinitely important to them, and they're hiding from a teen's parents. I realise the scenes were done for the sake of the love subplot and for comedy, but it was at significant expense to the story. LAter, once they have the allspark in their possession, Sam still carries it. There is absolutely no reason why he should still be in the movie. He only slows them down, but he is forced to carry it around so that the audience can continue to live vicariously through his character. It would be less ridiculous if he suddenly gained jedi powers and single handedly defeated Megatron just so that they could add in more special effects.
The people I talked to who liked the movie basically wrote off the story entirely, saying that's not the point of the movie. They watch it for the 15 minutes of special effect action sequences. To me that like buying a pack of chocolate chip cookies, picking out all the chocolate chips, and then throwing the rest of the cookie away
1. The films are entirely formulaic. They're going for the widest appeal possible, and this has been perfected into five components: action, high budget special effects, comedy, love subplot, drama. These may sound like fairly generic components you could find in most any movie, but there is proof. First, you will always find each of these components; Spiderman, Hulk, Transformers, Ironman, Fantastic 4, etc. Not one of these films lacks any one of these components. Second, you will only find the elements in the films. Not one of those films include horror, not one includes mystery, not one includes adventure.
2. The writing is absolutely horrible. Transformers for example, Bumble helps Sam woo his girl and he and the rest of the autobots are sneaking around from Sam's parents so that they don't find out. These are robots on a mission to "save the earth," and obtain an object infinitely important to them, and they're hiding from a teen's parents. I realise the scenes were done for the sake of the love subplot and for comedy, but it was at significant expense to the story. LAter, once they have the allspark in their possession, Sam still carries it. There is absolutely no reason why he should still be in the movie. He only slows them down, but he is forced to carry it around so that the audience can continue to live vicariously through his character. It would be less ridiculous if he suddenly gained jedi powers and single handedly defeated Megatron just so that they could add in more special effects.
The people I talked to who liked the movie basically wrote off the story entirely, saying that's not the point of the movie. They watch it for the 15 minutes of special effect action sequences. To me that like buying a pack of chocolate chip cookies, picking out all the chocolate chips, and then throwing the rest of the cookie away
"O man. All these fictional sci-fi movies & TV the masses enjoy are sooo unrealistic!"
Which is why Allegory watches so much Anime.
"The Rich are there to take all of the money & pay none of the taxes, the middle class is there to do all the work and pay all the taxes, and the poor are there to scare the crap out of the middle class." -George Carlin
Omegavegeta wrote:
"O man. All these fictional sci-fi movies & TV the masses enjoy are sooo unrealistic!"
Except most scifi films/books try to be internally consistent. Transformers was just simple, bad writing.
Allegory wrote:
[quote=Zieveraar]I usppose I have two main complaints about these types of movies.
1. The films are entirely formulaic. They're going for the widest appeal possible, and this has been perfected into five components: action, high budget special effects, comedy, love subplot, drama. These may sound like fairly generic components you could find in most any movie, but there is proof. First, you will always find each of these components; Spiderman, Hulk, Transformers, Ironman, Fantastic 4, etc. Not one of these films lacks any one of these components. Second, you will only find the elements in the films. Not one of those films include horror, not one includes mystery, not one includes adventure.
2. The writing is absolutely horrible. Transformers for example, Bumble helps Sam woo his girl and he and the rest of the autobots are sneaking around from Sam's parents so that they don't find out. These are robots on a mission to "save the earth," and obtain an object infinitely important to them, and they're hiding from a teen's parents. I realise the scenes were done for the sake of the love subplot and for comedy, but it was at significant expense to the story. LAter, once they have the allspark in their possession, Sam still carries it. There is absolutely no reason why he should still be in the movie. He only slows them down, but he is forced to carry it around so that the audience can continue to live vicariously through his character. It would be less ridiculous if he suddenly gained jedi powers and single handedly defeated Megatron just so that they could add in more special effects.
The people I talked to who liked the movie basically wrote off the story entirely, saying that's not the point of the movie. They watch it for the 15 minutes of special effect action sequences. To me that like buying a pack of chocolate chip cookies, picking out all the chocolate chips, and then throwing the rest of the cookie away.
1. The films are entirely formulaic. They're going for the widest appeal possible, and this has been perfected into five components: action, high budget special effects, comedy, love subplot, drama. These may sound like fairly generic components you could find in most any movie, but there is proof. First, you will always find each of these components; Spiderman, Hulk, Transformers, Ironman, Fantastic 4, etc. Not one of these films lacks any one of these components. Second, you will only find the elements in the films. Not one of those films include horror, not one includes mystery, not one includes adventure.
2. The writing is absolutely horrible. Transformers for example, Bumble helps Sam woo his girl and he and the rest of the autobots are sneaking around from Sam's parents so that they don't find out. These are robots on a mission to "save the earth," and obtain an object infinitely important to them, and they're hiding from a teen's parents. I realise the scenes were done for the sake of the love subplot and for comedy, but it was at significant expense to the story. LAter, once they have the allspark in their possession, Sam still carries it. There is absolutely no reason why he should still be in the movie. He only slows them down, but he is forced to carry it around so that the audience can continue to live vicariously through his character. It would be less ridiculous if he suddenly gained jedi powers and single handedly defeated Megatron just so that they could add in more special effects.
The people I talked to who liked the movie basically wrote off the story entirely, saying that's not the point of the movie. They watch it for the 15 minutes of special effect action sequences. To me that like buying a pack of chocolate chip cookies, picking out all the chocolate chips, and then throwing the rest of the cookie away.
The Marvel movies tend to be similar to the comic, those aren't all that complicated either.
I agree completely that most of the Marvel and related superhero movies do not have any truly compelling story. Ang Lee tried it though, with quite a good movie to show for it, but that one failed unfortunately, giving rise to the rather awful remake which even the cast couldn't save this time.
These movies aren't the saviours of science fiction, but stereotypical movies, which are enjoyable if we're lucky. And some are quite enjoyable, like Star Trek or Iron Man or the first two X-men.
It reminds me of a comedy show they produce in Belgium, about a soccer team (amateur level), it's been going on for about 21 years now, and they are finally going to stop the abomination it is. It lasted 21 years because people kept watching it. Not because it's good.
Allegory wrote:
First, it was J.J. Abrams, and nothing he's worked on has ever been good.
Zieveraar wrote:
The Marvel movies tend to be similar to the comic,
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
I have higher hopes for the Deadpool movie.
Overall, Marvel has made some decent movies & I'd like to think that since Blade, have put forth more good than bad.
The movies are entertaining at least, from a Comic fans perspective. It's certainly neat to see things that you've only experienced through the solitary medium of a comic book on the big screen. Admittedly, you may feel slighted as the characters have been "dumbed" down a bit for the masses, but if those masses pick up a comic because of it...
Well, there you go right there.
Hollywood should apologize for Wanted though, that comic was a gajillion times better than that piece of garbage.
Overall, Marvel has made some decent movies & I'd like to think that since Blade, have put forth more good than bad.
The movies are entertaining at least, from a Comic fans perspective. It's certainly neat to see things that you've only experienced through the solitary medium of a comic book on the big screen. Admittedly, you may feel slighted as the characters have been "dumbed" down a bit for the masses, but if those masses pick up a comic because of it...
Well, there you go right there.
Hollywood should apologize for Wanted though, that comic was a gajillion times better than that piece of garbage.
"The Rich are there to take all of the money & pay none of the taxes, the middle class is there to do all the work and pay all the taxes, and the poor are there to scare the crap out of the middle class." -George Carlin
lolgaxe wrote:
Allegory wrote:
First, it was J.J. Abrams, and nothing he's worked on has ever been good.
Zieveraar wrote:
The Marvel movies tend to be similar to the comic,
Deadpool would have my head for it, I'm quite sure
I'm more referring to the fact that the average Marvel tale isn't really all that much better than the movies released. Granted, they aren't all as bad as X-Men III either, luckily for Marvel.
The movies are indeed not really following the continuity and canon of the marvel comics, that's for certain.
The film wasn't that hot, but...
Of course it's bigger than warships, it's meant to hold a great deal of ore. You know, being a mining ship? That something with limited arms for its period (presumably to eliminate the need for a fighter escort while mining) can kick the *** of **** made 120 years earlier isn't surprising.
Ugh.
Most of the genuine oddities are common to all series and films of star trek - start trek combat and tactics are not realistic and never ever have been.
Quote:
Let alone the whole mining ship from 120 years in the future capable of pwning entire warship fleets. It is also covered in gratuitous spikes, is ten times bigger than warships, and seems to have a boatload of advanced photon torpedos. Plus, the whole "Romulans are really grungy guys with tattoos" kick.
Of course it's bigger than warships, it's meant to hold a great deal of ore. You know, being a mining ship? That something with limited arms for its period (presumably to eliminate the need for a fighter escort while mining) can kick the *** of **** made 120 years earlier isn't surprising.
Quote:
O HAI, I'm young james t kirk who tries to outrun a flying vehicle by driving my dad's car off of a cliff.
Ugh.
Most of the genuine oddities are common to all series and films of star trek - start trek combat and tactics are not realistic and never ever have been.
Too lazy to scroll back up and quote, but I'd just like to point out that Spiderman 3 was terrible. 2 was better in practically every single way that a movie can be better than another movie.
The lack of nudity from miss Dunst is disappointing.
Can't sleep, clown will eat me.
4 should have Mysterio. Played by Bruce Campbell. Mysterio is always about ******** with Spidy's head, and what better way than by a guy that has been around in all the movies.
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
Late to the party, but I just wanted to see what everyone was talking about. Afterall, there have only been 2 Spiderman movies. 
◕ ‿‿ ◕
Quote:
Seriously, they are even all on this page!
eh, i only got around to seeing it because my father, who is an incredible science fiction/fantasy geek, was visiting and wanted to see it. Nice to know other people felt the same way.
Quote:
Of course it's bigger than warships, it's meant to hold a great deal of ore. You know, being a mining ship? That something with limited arms for its period (presumably to eliminate the need for a fighter escort while mining) can kick the *** of sh*t made 120 years earlier isn't surprising.
I'm not too up on my star trek timelines, but I don't think it was until deep space nine you got the idea of shuttle "fighter" escorts, usually it was cap ship versus cap ship battles. About the ore, well it could be anything-a mining ship should probably have a factory on board to process it, but then again this one was warp capable.
I really think though they could have called it a warship and it would have made more sense, the drill was not so necessary imo.
Quote:
I don't see how you could have expected anything else. First, it was J.J. Abrams, and nothing he's worked on has ever been good. Second, it was clearly a mass market movie armed at gathering as many viewers as possible. Clearly it was going to suck for the same reasons Spiderman 3 sucked, for the same reasons Transformers sucked, and for the same reasons the next pop culture icon movie will suck.
It's star trek though,so my mental bar is lowered, and I don't mind some level of absurdity for a fun film. This is a movie series that had the original cast time travel back into modern day america to save the whales, if i recall. But when its absurd, even for a trek film, yeah that's surprising.
Quote:
Deadpool would have my head for it, I'm quite sure
I'm more referring to the fact that the average Marvel tale isn't really all that much better than the movies released. Granted, they aren't all as bad as X-Men III either, luckily for Marvel.
The movies are indeed not really following the continuity and canon of the marvel comics, that's for certain
I'm more referring to the fact that the average Marvel tale isn't really all that much better than the movies released. Granted, they aren't all as bad as X-Men III either, luckily for Marvel.
The movies are indeed not really following the continuity and canon of the marvel comics, that's for certain
They really can't. Spiderman especially seems vulnerable to it, because beyond the origin story, marvel screws the hell out him. Good luck being faithful to explaining how spiderman found the symbiote in that weird other planet the beyonder created during the first secret war. Current continuity is all messed up, spiderman unmasked himself during the civil war, has had to deal with being some crazy spider-totem thing, had to deal with that bizarre one new day storyline...
Quote:
Except most scifi films/books try to be internally consistent. Transformers was just simple, bad writing.
what's really sad is that the animated cartoon had a better and more internally consistent premise, despite the weirdness of energon cubes and optimus prime magically forming a blazing axe. The autobots flee cybertron with the matrix, megatron and the decepticons catch up and they crash the ship into earth. It reactivates later and repairs friend and foe alike.
And the enemies, well, speak.
Quote:
Quote:
Deadpool would have my head for it, I'm quite sure
I'm more referring to the fact that the average Marvel tale isn't really all that much better than the movies released. Granted, they aren't all as bad as X-Men III either, luckily for Marvel.
The movies are indeed not really following the continuity and canon of the marvel comics, that's for certain
I'm more referring to the fact that the average Marvel tale isn't really all that much better than the movies released. Granted, they aren't all as bad as X-Men III either, luckily for Marvel.
The movies are indeed not really following the continuity and canon of the marvel comics, that's for certain
They really can't. Spiderman especially seems vulnerable to it, because beyond the origin story, marvel screws the hell out him. Good luck being faithful to explaining how spiderman found the symbiote in that weird other planet the beyonder created during the first secret war. Current continuity is all messed up, spiderman unmasked himself during the civil war, has had to deal with being some crazy spider-totem thing, had to deal with that bizarre one new day storyline...
I've been using my subscription to the marvel comics digital online site to try and update my knowledge on the whole Civil War thing, I missed most of it when it came out. I knew Captain America gets a bullet in the head because that was actually mentioned in the news (well, at least online), only recently read that Spiderman unmasked himself.
The Beyonder tales were fun the first series, not so much the second time and I believe it ended with him being revealed as a sentient infinity cube or something?
That Secret Wars thing set a few things in motion for all involved, with Venom being the biggest thing.
I saw Star Trek again last night, I have to say that I liked it more the second time. Sure, there are faults in the movie (the whole Kirk marrooned on that iceplanet was borderline retarded for instance) but as a whole it is a good movie.
As for that mining ship, let's not forget that it's a Romulan one. They're not the most rational and sane race to be found. A Federation one would not be equipped like that, but a Romulan one does seem feasible.
Zieveraar wrote:
only recently read that Spiderman unmasked himself.
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
Quote:
Then Marvel changed their minds and made it all just not happen. I mean, something like A WHOLE YEAR OF STORYLINE just "didn't happen."
But while I enjoyed some of JMS' run on ASM (Morlun & Ezekiel were cool), "The Other" & the Gwen/Osborn love children being stricken from continuity weren't a bad thing.
"The Rich are there to take all of the money & pay none of the taxes, the middle class is there to do all the work and pay all the taxes, and the poor are there to scare the crap out of the middle class." -George Carlin
Zieveraar wrote:
Spiderman 3 was extremely superior to the second one, even better than the first one.
There's something wrong with your head if you think Spiderman 3 was a good film.
Lolgaxe wrote:
Then Marvel changed their minds and made it all just not happen. I mean, something like A WHOLE YEAR OF STORYLINE just "didn't happen."
That whole retcon was ********* Don't hire an author renowned for long, complex story arcs, then decide you don't like his story arc and just remove it from the continuity. JSM's stuff wasn't 100% gold, but I would rather they stuck with it instead of trying that kind of clumsy-*** editorial retcon.
It's almost as bad as what they're doing to Batman at the moment. Everyone knows that the caped crusader is just going to get rescued by Booster Gold and this whole Batman: Reborn **** will be forgotten as fast as last night's drinking.
lolgaxe wrote:
Zieveraar wrote:
only recently read that Spiderman unmasked himself.
Really?? Haven't gotten to that point yet
I get visions of Patrick Duffy stepping out of the shower here.
Quote:
Zieveraar wrote:
Spiderman 3 was extremely superior to the second one, even better than the first one.
There's something wrong with your head if you think Spiderman 3 was a good film.
Spiderman 3 was extremely superior to the second one, even better than the first one.
There's something wrong with your head if you think Spiderman 3 was a good film.
Much better than the really boring part 2 imo. Doc Oc was ridiculous, heck that whole movie was ridiculous.
Then again, I've always preferred X-Men and Wolverine anyway.
Zieveraar wrote:
Much better than the really boring part 2 imo. Doc Oc was ridiculous, heck that whole movie was ridiculous.
Then again, I've always preferred X-Men and Wolverine anyway.
Then again, I've always preferred X-Men and Wolverine anyway.
I'm inclined to say that while the choice between 2 and 3 is a toss-up between Doc Ock and Venom/Hobgoblin/Sandman, you can't say that 3 was better than the first one. Not by any stretch of the imagination. The first one actually had a plot.
I don't mind the "post" One More Day stories, but I'm not collecting them anymore either.
I'm still enjoying the "main" Marvel U Comics Spidey character in New Avengers, but the combination of the post One More Day cast on ASM & the fact that it comes out like, every week, has lead me to drop it from my regular pull list for the first time in almost 17 years.
And the relaunching of Ultimate Spidey better be good, or imma be pissed.
I'm still enjoying the "main" Marvel U Comics Spidey character in New Avengers, but the combination of the post One More Day cast on ASM & the fact that it comes out like, every week, has lead me to drop it from my regular pull list for the first time in almost 17 years.
And the relaunching of Ultimate Spidey better be good, or imma be pissed.
"The Rich are there to take all of the money & pay none of the taxes, the middle class is there to do all the work and pay all the taxes, and the poor are there to scare the crap out of the middle class." -George Carlin
zepoodle wrote:
I'm inclined to say that while the choice between 2 and 3 is a toss-up between Doc Ock and Venom/Green Goblin/Sandman,
I'm really not sure how I feel about the retcon, though. I'm glad the Wonder Goblin Twins (Activate!) don't exist anymore, but Ezekiel and Peter as a teacher were probably some of the best story elements in a long time. Likewise, I'm going to miss the WolverSpidy Claws just for the laughs, but not the Spidy Night Vision or Spidy ANYTHING STICKS TO MY ENTIRE BODY powers. Although, I do wonder where those went. A toss up, over all.
Oh, and the Kingpin fight. That was awesome.
Edit: Just finished reading ASM 598.
is my reaction. Edited, Jun 25th 2009 7:57am by lolgaxe
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
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