The Blink tanks........and PLD'SFollow

Ok, first of all, I want to say, I am not ********* Just to get this topic out in the open.

Now for this... Blink Tanks, specifically Ninjas, I can understand that they want to lvl up like everyone else, and I can see that they have Utsusemi ichi and ni. I am a 50 PLD and i find alot of my invites go to the Ninjas blink taking, plus to top it off the ninjas deal a considerable amount of damage compared to us meat shields. Now I am not offering a way to fix this, becuase honestly I find Utsusemi a very useful ablility. But at the same time, does anyone think they are "taking advantage" of this ablitity? (It was quoted from a friend of mine in my LS) Just something I am starting to see as I am lvling up some more and I sit in Jeuno and see alot of lvl 50ish PLD's seeking and no NINs. Just some food for thought.

Yo tanta! you try being a blink tank! its hard to get gil, get the fame for quest, buy a crap load. If i cant tank better than the plds with the gil im spending, no one would do it.

*AHEM* Classes, War & PLD.

Ok, I have already said my piece, peeps, take the ball and run with it ^^, Also, rate up for you guys! Thanx for replying!

Edited, Fri Sep 10 01:38:43 2004 by SirTanta

I think ninjas can blink tank, they have been doing it for a long time why stop now?
And PLD are good too... If ninjas werent supposed to blink tank they would have never gave the that advantage...Maybe the ninjas will get their blink tanking taken away from them...*wink wink, nidge nudge*
So don't worry Tanta, ir PLD will be fine, look how far youve gone already..

I think a NIN tank (as it stands today) is a viable option. However, I've rarely see one played well. NIN/WARs don't have much in the way of hate generating tools...or if they do, the NINs I've seen don't use their talents. Most NINs that I have partied with canoot hold hate without a THF to trick hate onto them.

On the other side of the coin, I've rarely had a PLD that couldn't hold hate. So I guess I'm kind of conditioned by what I've experienced.

I think it's unreasonable to call blink tanking "abusive" or "cheating". Having NINs tank isn't exploiting a bug; it's simply using the class in a way that the creators hadn't thought of. SE has come out and said that although blink tanking wasn't their intention, it was an aspect of the game that they've accepted. The Utsusemi change will make it a bit harder to blink tank, but it shouldn't eliminate it altogether.


Sorry, I have no sympathy for you, simply because you're a PLD. If you want to experience true frustration looking for a party, try lvling WAR past Kazham. I've seen gimped PLDs lvling quickly while I've toiled for attention the past 20 lvls. It looks like I'll need to have a lvled NIN sub to have a better shot at an invite. But in doing so, I'm going to be branded as an abuser? Ouch.

Tanta, I /salute you for pointing out that WAR is a viable tank class along side our PLD brothers. I'm sure that there are plenty of PLDs (as well as players of other jobs) out there who view PLD as the only viable tanking class, and look down on us WARs.


If I read the September annoncement in the Developers Room correctly, this change was just made this week (through the client upgrade).
Edit: I read the announcement wrong. Though the client update happened last week, the changes won't be complete until the server update next Monday.

Edited, Sun Sep 12 03:16:13 2004 by svlyons

As a paladin I like having a blink tank in the party, less work for me and I don't have to use any food or really do anything except attack, heal the nin, and back up tank.

Of course some jobs overlap (it could be said that drk, drg, sam and rng all exist for dd so why make 4 dd jobs?).

Lyon, yr right ><! lol

Just because the AoE's will remove the shadows won't stop the blink-tankers. Apparently SE are happy with what players have chose to do with NIN, this is just a way of balancing it a bit since right now they do it too well.
One way around it is for them to use Ichi mostly (slower cast time) and then when their blinks get removed by an AoE, use Ni for a fast recast.
Also, most AoE attacks have large build-ups, meaning all it takes is good use of Stun to stop the mob in its tracks.

I'm not hugely pro blink-tank, it's great to have on in a party but I wanted to lvl NIN and can't yet as I'd be expected to blink-tank (which I can't afford atm). I think they should be less expected to blink-tank as a PLD can do an excellent job anyway.

I do understand the concern you have with your role being unjustly overtaken by the Utsusemi-class. As a PLD myself, I often am forced by my party members to take a back-seat to any NIN who happen to be in my parties. And I don't blame them, they certainly can take a few whacks, that's for sure. They are incredibly useful for MP-effeciency on the WHMs part, as well as giving the party a sense of safety as long as the NIN's HP stays at full. It does seem at times like we're riding shotgun to a class that doesn't suit a "tank" role, and it often worries me hearing people talk about NINs being the "perfect tanks" at higher levels when they recieve Utsusemi-Ni.

However, there are some disturbing attributes I have noticed in my time as a SAM, being involved in parties with a NIN tank. Unless they do their job flawlessly, they can't hold hate for peanuts. Having to rely on Provoke and their damage, I often see mobs running amok, expecially after a significant SC from myself and others in the party. As my PLD, I know that grabbing hate comes as simply as casting a few Cure spells and throwing in a Provoke if that doesn't measure up, then the hate is mine for as long as I care to hold it. Also, if fights begin to come down to the wire and the WHM is fresh out of MP, "Invicible" is the world's greatest ability! I have been in a 2x WHM party and had both use Benediction at a crucial moment. With Invincible, the mob didn't even glance back to them, just kept fruitlessly hacking away at me. Moment laters, it fell, no fatalities on our part.

PLDs are at the forefront of hate-control. I mean, our jobs as Tanks are to pull hate towards us so that healers can do their jobs more effectively and the Damage Dealers can lay in the blows thick and fast. While a NIN can survive almost as many hits as he sees fit to, can the same be said for the rest of the members in the party?

Besides, our armour is far shinier than any NINs, and you know it! ^_^

Edited, Mon Sep 13 00:38:46 2004 by Psylight

Svylyons...

You are right, of course, with pretty much every point you made in that post, and I thank you for not leaping down my throat at some of my more careless phrases. I'll rephrase... ^_^


Ideally, I enjoy being in parties where the hate is more or less static. It's what I've come to expect in my parties since that's more or less how I handle things as a PLD. (Go, high VIT, yay!) I admit it makes me a little nervous when the tank loses copious amounts of HP suddenly. (Didn't really need to say all this, just thought I'd throw it in.)


You're right, it IS confusing. Especially considering that NIN/WAR makes an excellent backup/side-tank to take stress off the PLD. A lot of parties choose not to see it this way, however, which is what disturbs me. They'd rather see more Utsusemi cast than let the PLD do the only job he's pretty much made for. I'm not entirely sure why this is... Remember, I said a lot of the time I am FORCED to take the backup role, albeit usually against my wishes.


This was my bad, I wrote what you quoted with the intention of putting the orignal poster's thoughts into words, not expressing a personal belief. Sorry you took that the wrong way, bad wording on my part. I really meant to put quotation marks around that word "Unjustly" as well, also my bad. ^_^

I think the inspiration behind the original poster's initial claims was that he simply didn't like the feeling that the job he'd worked so hard to bring to greatness was in jeopardy of becoming "obsolete". The same inspiration called me to put my thoughts here. It's not so much jealousy that there are alternatives to the glorious tanking role, it's more that I see NINs as an effective tank by themselves, and with all the talk about how great and unhittable they can be, it starts to make you think "Is there a reason I'm striving so hard to level this PLD when NIN is aparently better?"

I'm sure the same thoughts apply to any damage dealer, what with the number of jobs that fall under that category.

Edited, Mon Sep 13 13:39:35 2004 by Psylight

I for one would hate to see the destruction of ninja as tanks. You can complain about the competition for tank slot but realise that every job has it's replacement. Rdm or Brd, Whm or Smn or Rdm, Pld or Nin, not to mention all the competition amongst dd jobs. It's hard enough just trying to find these essential classes to make your party never mind imagining if theere was only 1. Maybe it's beacause I play off-peak hours a lot of the time, but I really don't wish to have yet another party that breaks up when we can't find a tank.

I realise that I haven't mentioned war as a tank choice.. because in my experience they haven't been. Use up lots of mp for whm, and just can't hold hate at all. Make good DD and back-up tanks though. Maybe I just haven't met a good war tank. (Note: this is all 50+, wars at lower levels tank well)

..also about the pld who cured himself for 0dmg.. that gives 0hate, it's based on how much hp you cure.. this makes it a good idea not to keep pld at full hp all the time unless the mob has a high dmg attack, whilst the converse is true for nin who can be knocked down very quickly if they lose their shadows.

I'd have to agree that it takes a lot of skill for a ninja to tank, they need to be constantly counting, removing and refreshing their shadows whilst also making sure they keep hate. Pld get a lot of their hate tools handed to them, as they were meant to tank whilst nin have to work their best way around what they have, and in my experience they both do this well. Nin seeing as it is determined almost entirely by player skill and cash can be more flakey especially at lower levels before they get a hang on it. Meanwhile even the worst pld can usually keep some measure of hate on them but take a greater strain on the whm's mp... with a good nin you often don't have a whm, just a rdm and free up a slot but with slightly less reliable hate control.

Basically I take whoever's lfg.. at my time of day theres not a huge choice ^^;