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#1 Dec 19 2005 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Bad! No slime oils for 35k a stack! No! Bad FFXI players! no 36k for BEEHIVE CHIPS! BAD! /slap


The fu[/b]ck is wrong with our economy. I have heard the horror stories of other servers and how out of wack the economy is and then I looked at Gilgamesh and smiled, things on our server are no way as bad as some of the others. Until 2 days ago when some jerk off decided that 12-15k wasn't enough for Beehive chips and decided to jack the price up a little and [b]everyone else decided hey Ill jack it up as well!

As of last night here is what I saw:
Silent oils 44k a stack (horse sh[/b]it)
Squid Sushi 48k a stack (you people are nuts)
Beehive Chips 36k a stack (dropped to 30k)

After seeing the Chips at 36k I decided to go farm a stack. I ran into Rolanberry and after about [b]35 to 40 minutes
later I came back to Jeuno with a stack. I put it up on AH for 15k, it sold for 30k.

I know it will balance out soon enough but come on 25k for silent oils was rough. I can not wait to meet a WHM Alchemist that bitches that they have to Sneak me (I no longer carry 2 stacks at all times)
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#2 Dec 19 2005 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Tell me about it ; ;

I was looking to make some Silent Oils for cash yesterday when I noticed that the chips had shot up that high in price. I decided it wasn't worth my time and did something else.

The problem is that people are stupid enough to:
A) Put them up that high, expecting people to buy them, and
B) Actually buy them

For example, one time I was synthing for skill, nothing out of the ordinary. I bought as many of a material as I could without having to overpay and ended up one unstackable material short of what I needed. I decided that since it was only one I'd just overpay by about 2-3k. However, despite the fact that there were only a handful remaining, and that 9/10 AH entries were at the usual price, the next 30-40 sales of that item were all bought and sold at the price of the SINGLE one that I overpayed for. The FFXI economy is just flawed. I don't know how or why, but it is. And it sucks.

Edited for spelling.

Edited, Mon Dec 19 09:31:04 2005 by Davrost
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Character Name: Davrost
Race: Tarutaru
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http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/poster.html?user=391454#FFXI_Characters
Relic: SMN - 6/6, WAR - 6/6, BST - 5/5, BLM - 6/6, PLD: 2/5, MNK - 1/5, THF - 1/5, DNC - 6/6, BLU - 6/6, RDM - 1/5, SCH - 1/5, DRK - 2/5, WHM - 1/5
Notable Crafts: WW: 73.1+2, AL: 60.0, CO: 60.0, LC: 60.0+1, CC: 54.3+1
#3 Dec 19 2005 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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Heh. I wish more people would get irate over this, something might actually change. I've stopped doing silent oils because of the crazy price increase; I'll make them for my LS from scratch materials that they farm, but I wont contribute to the craziness that's possessed the AH. Ditto for various other potions and meds.

Before I went to sleep last night, silent oils were 50k/stack. Slime oil and beehive chips both around 35k/stack. Beeswax 50k/stack. It'd really be worth your while to just make friends with an alchemist who'll synth for you from raw ingredients that anyone can farm pretty quickly, and leave the AH well enough alone. I know I get several stacks of chips when farming in Pashhow, where bees are a secondary target; and I managed several slime oils just running thru Korrolaka back to bastok. Its really not hard, more folks should look into it rather than support rampant inflation.

On the note of making friends with someone, anyone got high enough choco digging to get philosophers stones regularly? I still need a metric ton of them, and would like to cut a deal.

Edit: Oh yeah, take a look at BST consumables too. Fish oil broth @40k+, and then bastore sardines! went to 6k a stack. Insanity. Bluetail more than doubled in price too overnight. And Couerl meat is lucrative thanks to pet food zeta doubling last I looked as well.

Edited, Mon Dec 19 10:20:12 2005 by buserrorcoredump
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#4 Dec 19 2005 at 10:29 AM Rating: Default
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just do like everyone else, pay

all prices rose, so what you where doing for money before this inflation, will bring you more money.

price ratios are close to what they were before this price doubling

it's not like we had choice to buy oils or not. ( even if I'm a whm main, I'm carrying 2 stacks of each for magic aggro zones or other jobs )
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#5 Dec 19 2005 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
price ratios are close to what they were before this price doubling


Bullcrap.
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#6 Dec 19 2005 at 11:27 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
The problem is that people are stupid enough to:
A) Put them up that high, expecting people to buy them, and
B) Actually buy them


easy for a mage to say, if your a melee and you need silent oils now, theres not much you can do about it. i got a mule with 10 stacks on it now, thanks to an alchemist :)
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#7 Dec 19 2005 at 11:56 AM Rating: Default
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Welcome to anarchy!

Quote:
just do like everyone else, pay

all prices rose, so what you where doing for money before this inflation, will bring you more money.

price ratios are close to what they were before this price doubling

it's not like we had choice to buy oils or not. ( even if I'm a whm main, I'm carrying 2 stacks of each for magic aggro zones or other jobs )


I'm not even going to justify this with a valid response, and just say: Bullsh*t.
#8 Dec 19 2005 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kazkau's a n00b wrote:
easy for a mage to say, if your a melee and you need silent oils now, theres not much you can do about it. i got a mule with 10 stacks on it now, thanks to an alchemist :)


I have a stack of oils and powders on me at all times Kaz..... you know that.....
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#9 Dec 19 2005 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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The problem is this: the ways you acquire gil other than through selling at the AH HAVE NOT CHANGED AT ALL. Those of us who make money other ways (read: I don't have any crafts to "profitable" level yet, and at this rate probably won't for a good while) are getting ROYALLY reamed at the AH these days. Time was I could do what I do now, go farm Oztroja or somewhere similar, get a few stacks of items and some gil off the Beastmen, and live pretty well.

These days I'm lucky if that pays for XP food.

And I still refuse to buy gil.
1.) It defeats the purpose of the struggle to GET the items.
2.) It's the biggest part of why FFXI's economy is so screwed up in the first place.

I still have my Leather set from waaaay back in the beginning. I bought the ENTIRE SET back then for 1k gil. Now it's worth, what, 10-20k? More? For LEVEL 7 EQUIPMENT. The word "ridiculous" doesn't have enough letters in it to describe the ridiculousness of this situation. I've said it before, I'll say it again: PUT PRICE CAPS ON AH ITEMS! It's NOT that hard to work out an algorithm to determine the price cap for an item based on rarity and level. Really. I've done programming, we're not calcuating pi here. If they can work out those complicated-as-hell formulas for combat spells, they can do this.

[EDIT] I forgot to add this in before: I farm Beehive Chips some, but I sell them at somewhat more reasonable prices (like 2-4k a stack max). I'm far from the only one I know who does this, either. So next time you go to the AH to look at something, try underbidding. You might stumble upon one of us. ;-) Also, Beehive Chips seem to have a fairly consistent drop rate across the level board, so don't bother with the stronger bees, they don't seem to have much higher of a drop rate; not that I've seen anyway, and I've farmed Chips off all kinds of Bees. Go somewhere easier where they can be killed in 1-2 hits, it's MUCH more effective in the long run, especially as THF or /THF.

Edited, Mon Dec 19 14:12:25 2005 by Skifter
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#10 Dec 19 2005 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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I've said it before, I'll say it again: PUT PRICE CAPS ON AH ITEMS!


Worst idea ever. Whenever they try to do this with a real economy, everything gets worse. The best example is when the United States put a price cap on gasoline, about 20 years ago. They completely ran out. Now, 20-30k may or may not be crazy for level 7 armor... but imagine NOT being able to buy the level 7 armor because of it not being in stock. Price ceilings/floors don't work. The problem isn't the people crafting the items, it is the people who sell the raw ingrediants.

I crafted Kaginawa for gil. Basically, I want to make a slight profit, if I don't HQ anything. When I started making Kaginawa, the Bronze Ignots were 10k, Manticore Hair was 5k, grass thread was about 2k, and the earth crystals were at most 1k. For 12 synths, it would cost me about 75k. Without any HQ, I could make 4 stacks of Kaginawa. The AH price was usually 30k, and I could put mine up for about 25k. Now, the prices on everything has skyrocketed. Manticore hair is up to almost 10k, bronze ignots are almost 20k, grass thread almost 5k and even crystals cost more. My total now is about 130k for 4 stacks of kaginawa, meaning that I have to jack my price up. Now I sell them for 37k in San d'Oria. I know that I could go farm the Hairs, I could farm the crystals, etc. But that would still be my time thats gone. Don't blame the crafters, blame the farmers. The crafters just take the raw material and turn it into useable things, often at a cost loss to themselves.
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#11 Dec 19 2005 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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easy for a mage to say, if your a melee and you need silent oils now, theres not much you can do about it.


You mean you guys carry oils? Then why am I always stuck casting Sneak on the entire party? >.>
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Character Name: Davrost
Race: Tarutaru
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http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/poster.html?user=391454#FFXI_Characters
Relic: SMN - 6/6, WAR - 6/6, BST - 5/5, BLM - 6/6, PLD: 2/5, MNK - 1/5, THF - 1/5, DNC - 6/6, BLU - 6/6, RDM - 1/5, SCH - 1/5, DRK - 2/5, WHM - 1/5
Notable Crafts: WW: 73.1+2, AL: 60.0, CO: 60.0, LC: 60.0+1, CC: 54.3+1
#12 Dec 19 2005 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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HC could just stop buying so much gil, that would take 200+ million out the economy.

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#13 Dec 19 2005 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I am what is wrong with this economy.

I swear to you, I will mark up every item as much as I possibly can while maintaining a healthy turnover. While skilling up, I will pay exorbitant fees while undercutting my neighbor generating losses on my own account. I will do this just to reach another HQ tier, so I can turn around and hike up more items needlessly.

If you want to combat me, please check the AH. NEVER BUY MEAT MITHKABOBS, and proceed to undercut me as much as you can without killing yourself. I only make 1 gil synth, and I can't keep up with demand by any stretch of the imagination. I craft for ls people for no charge, so I have to glean money off the rest of the schmoes of this game. Currently there is no Cockatrice meat for sale, so I'm skilling to 99 on sweet rice cakes, which is a horrible loss. After that, I will make antica broth and sell them for increasing prices until someone beats me to the ingredients.

These are my plans. I dare you to stop me.

If you believe that you can defy supply and demand, you're just ridiculous. I have no pity for those people unwilling to exploit the system, just because they want cheap items. I have been told gil comes hand over fist in this game, and I believe it. I make about a million gil every week off of a craft that was profitable to level. What on earth are you guys complaining about?

I will NEVER NEVER blame either crafter or consumer for charging what people will pay. How could you? You can protest or profit off of the system, I choose to profit. My assault earring made me 500k this week alone. Chopsuey Chucky is going for 100k/per and I don't see any on the AH. You can bet if I make a stack I'll list that crap at 2 mil. Bitch me out all you want. It isn't unethical to put anything up on the AH, if you don't like it, don't buy it. I'll bet somebody will.

-BBS out
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#14 Dec 19 2005 at 4:34 PM Rating: Decent
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lol i dont know why but the other day some guy bought my brass xiphos for 38k and its only 4k worth
#15 Dec 19 2005 at 6:57 PM Rating: Decent
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http://lgst.wharton.upenn.edu/hunterd/VirtualEconomies.pdf
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#16 Dec 19 2005 at 7:01 PM Rating: Decent
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o noes !!!!!! teh trollz r hear!!!111!!!!11!!

EDIT: Needed to say this before. I'm not calling anyone in particular a troll. Just saying that there are some karma trolls running rampant through the topic.

Edited, Tue Dec 20 13:51:34 2005 by Davrost
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Notable Crafts: WW: 73.1+2, AL: 60.0, CO: 60.0, LC: 60.0+1, CC: 54.3+1
#17 Dec 19 2005 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm confused.

Who is the troll?

-BBS out
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#18 Dec 19 2005 at 7:36 PM Rating: Decent
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kakusajin
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#19 Dec 19 2005 at 8:22 PM Rating: Good
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ty Lugzzz, something to read between fights tonight ^^
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#20 Dec 19 2005 at 9:52 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
kakusajin


You're all idiots. Goddamn high school drama in a video game, real f[b][/b]ucking great.

Idiots.
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#21 Dec 19 2005 at 10:10 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You mean you guys carry oils? Then why am I always stuck casting Sneak on the entire party? >.>


...Because the prices are so high, and people are cheap? >.>; I dunno, I /NIN, so I always carry at least 4 on me.

And I thought I would mention...Fish Oil Broth 48k? What the hell? Before the update, the price was a floating 17-~20k...Way to take advantage, greedy bastards. *NPCs jugs from Kazham in spite.*

Edit: Oh, haha, way to try and follow in Rinste's steps, Kaz. Too bad you fail at it. I'll give you credit, you're more intelligent than they are...Even though you didn't spell my name right. You just can't pull the troll thing off. They're a special bunch, they are. :/



Edited, Mon Dec 19 22:12:28 2005 by Eiri
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#22 Dec 19 2005 at 10:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm confused.

Who is the troll?


*Shrug* Could be anybody. Someone doesn't like the topic of conversation though because just about everyone here got rated down. I don't really care though.

Quote:
Quote:
You mean you guys carry oils? Then why am I always stuck casting Sneak on the entire party? >.>


...Because the prices are so high, and people are cheap?


That's fine and dandy, but when it puts both their life AND MINE in danger, I get a little ticked off. However, I do appreciate the people who take the time and money to make sure they actually have some form of Sneak/Invis at any given time.

Also, very interesting little document you have there lugzzz. A bit wordy though o.O;

Edited, Mon Dec 19 22:57:51 2005 by Davrost
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Race: Tarutaru
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Current Job: BLU
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/poster.html?user=391454#FFXI_Characters
Relic: SMN - 6/6, WAR - 6/6, BST - 5/5, BLM - 6/6, PLD: 2/5, MNK - 1/5, THF - 1/5, DNC - 6/6, BLU - 6/6, RDM - 1/5, SCH - 1/5, DRK - 2/5, WHM - 1/5
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#23 Dec 20 2005 at 5:33 AM Rating: Good
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Go look at the history for jack-o-lantern's.

Inc
Inc
Inc
Inc
Inc
SomeotherbastardwhosnameIcan'trememberandIdon'twanttologintoFFXI
Someotherbastard*
Someotherbastard*
Someotherbastard*
Someotherbastard*
Someotherbastard*

I was using it to make money before I moved last month, came back to 3 delivery boxes full of returned lanterns. I put them back up for the price that they where before I left (6k) and checked what they where at. 15k. Well, after a what the hell moment I decided to leave 'em. They ALL GOT RETURNED becuase the previously mentions bastards had undercut that bad.

Also, farming chips in North Gusty is retarded compitition now.
; ;
Edit: Yay rate downs. /goodbye posting >.>

Edited, Wed Dec 21 07:00:40 2005 by Sberry
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#24 Dec 20 2005 at 8:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Beehive chips back to the "right" price now, I'd like to think I had something to do with it even though I most likely didn't (Bought a stack and relisted them 10 times for 1G, bought for 7k.) I made them all see the error of their ways <_<

That's what I like to think ._.;

Also:

Quote:
Edit: Oh, haha, way to try and follow in Rinste's steps, Kaz. Too bad you fail at it. I'll give you credit, you're more intelligent than they are...Even though you didn't spell my name right. You just can't pull the troll thing off. They're a special bunch, they are. :/


Idiot.
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#25 Dec 20 2005 at 12:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Our server prices are definately getting out of hand. Gilgamesh used to be one of the more reasonable servers price wise, now we are on our way to becoming another Asura. Seems like the only way to turn a decent profit now a days is to farm all your own raw materials (which as we all know is not time efficient). That is assuming you have the skills to begin with. If you're a pure consumer, then well things are even worse for you.

While one could argue about how unethical it is to continue to sell at these obscene prices, and it would be understandable. On the same token, this is a way for those who invested into crafting to recoup some of losses and *gasp* turn a profit. I've never crafted for profit personally. I started as a cook to make my own stuff and to make it for others. I did Alchemy on a mule so I could make meds for myself and LS mates. Now that I'm a 68 WHM, I want a Noble's Tunic, which is seems like every gd person on our server has but me. 15mil and rising. I don't think the price will ever fall, so even crafting for profit may never get me to my goal, but it won't stop me from trying.

Everyone can put up items for a more reasonable price. Alchemists could put up Silent Oils for 25k/stack. But fear and the desire to get the uber overated items take hold. "If I sell it for the "right" price, then the gil sellers will buy it all and just mark it up ZOMG." That brings me to another point. Gil Sellers are a real threat to the economy and contributed to this hyper inflation, no doubt. But I am sick of them being the proverbial "Boogyman" that is the cause of every single problem on our server. Gil sellers can't possibly control the price of every single item on the AH. Yet this is what many people believe. We're so scared of losing profit to them, we match their obscene prices. It would be ideal, but not realistic to expect everyone boycott items, because people will continue to buy. Either because they bought gil and don't give a crap, or they have a abundance of gil.

/em waits for his karma to drop to 0.
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#26 Dec 20 2005 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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You're right. Gilsellers have nothing to do with the price of Silent Oil.



...Oh, except the 3 gilsellers that used to dominate Korroloka Tunnel.

But guess what, people? They're not there anymore, yet you're still selling your Slime Oil at the same inflated prices that they were. Who's the real villain? Certainly not you!? Sure, they inflated it, but you sustained it.
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But I take responsibility for every single sin. ♪ ♫


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#27 Dec 20 2005 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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I know it wasnt long ago that Manadsen/Mangavin (can't remember which, whomever wasnt in Zitah with one of the Girl-s) still filled the Slime Oil queues with what they got camping Oozes for Dodge Earrings. Havent bothered tracking it so much lately though. I wonder what they pushed the earrings up to, come to think of it. Glad I have mine, in any case.

Korrolaka is still cleaned out by a bunch of /anon players every time I pass through. At least the main tunnel. There's quite a few jellys they miss that are off the straight bastok>altepa route, same as the gilsellers of old.

Hehe, last I saw of Yangsdzz, he was being completely ineffective at trying to farm beastman blood; should've stuck to Morion, at least that was fairly idiot-proof when they had folks to cover each spawn for them. Plus they were more fun to annoy then.

Wow, I'm bored. Rambling all over the place. I'll stop now. Time to head to the store and get my copy of Serenity to while away the hours until maintenance is over.
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#28 Dec 20 2005 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Worst idea ever. Whenever they try to do this with a real economy, everything gets worse.


Um, this isn't a real economy. It doesn't work precisely the same way. In a real economy money LEAVES it by recycling, breakdown, loss, small children with lighters, etc. Now, theoretically this should hold true ingame, through purchases from NPCs and so on. However, the AH circumvents such by simply giving gil to another player. And gil doesn't break down physically like dollars, pounds, yen, etc. I also know that a lot of players completely eschew NPC purchasing except in absolutely neccessary circumstances. The AH DOES charge a fee for putting the item up, but c'mon. With some of the higher-end items and with later-game players, that charge, EVEN THE ONE IN JEUNO, is almost laughable.

Therefore, in RL money LEAVES the economy. Ingame, it pretty much DOESN'T. It just continues to build up and circulate. This is called inflation, as you likely already know. The more of a type of currency in circulation = the less it's worth overall. However, as I said, the amount you get from quests, etc. is unchanging, while AH prices continue to rise.

What we're seeing is inflation taken to the extreme. Instead of a steady rise and fall as in RL, we're seeing it done on an exponential curve as sellers jack up prices and buyers get more gil to buy it with, which causes the sellers to jack up the prices again. Like so many things, a viscous cycle has set up.
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#29 Dec 20 2005 at 3:16 PM Rating: Default
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money leaves the economy every time you use a med, food, or ninja tool. The rate just may be a little low compared to the income of players. I'm working on it.

-BBS out
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#30 Dec 20 2005 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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Technically money only leaves the economy when paid to NPCs for services; stuff you buy on the AH only moves the money around. Airships, chocobos, NPC shops: those remove money from the economy, very little else does.
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#31 Dec 20 2005 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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Money leaves the economy when you pay the AH fee.
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#32 Dec 20 2005 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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Ooh, yeah. How could I forget that, its like the biggest one ><

Thanks Negatah.
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#33 Dec 21 2005 at 12:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dynamis, Limbus, ouypost warps, guild point items, solo enm also take money out the economy.
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#34 Dec 21 2005 at 12:58 AM Rating: Good
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GP items dont remove gil themselves; thats the same argument as saying eating food does. If you buy all the ingredients from NPCs that removes gil, but turning in the item is no different than eating food; its not a removal of gil from the system. The rest are quite valid, I'm just too low to deal with Dynamis and such still :)

I wasnt trying to make the all-inclusive list of things that remove gil from the economy, just trying to make a note that some of the items stated did in fact *not* remove gil.
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#35 Dec 21 2005 at 7:33 AM Rating: Decent
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if you have to blame someone for inflation, blame SE

SE totally controls the way to put gil in or out of the econmy

Gil in are from :
- quests and missions ( including bcnms where you get few K )
- beastmens ( or other mobs dropping gils )
- NPCing items ( probably the bigger one )

Gil out of the economy go to :
- npc ( when buying items )
- services ( chocobos, AH fees etc )
- dynamis, limbus and privates ballistas fees

( I may have forgot some, but the point is the same )

gilsellers ( and buyers ) have nothing to do with the overal inflation, maybe you can blame them for some items that are increasing faster ( or slower )

but the main factor of individual items inflation is demand superior to supply ( guess who control that )

P.S. thanks for the rate down for a common sens post <3
rate down this one too since your are at it ^^

Edited, Wed Dec 21 07:37:30 2005 by ajnag
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#36 Dec 21 2005 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
if you have to blame someone for inflation, blame SE

SE totally controls the way to put gil in or out of the econmy


Quote:
A fountain is a place where new gil is added to the economy. For our purposes, a fountain has to be something that can be repeated without end. Rank Missions give large gil rewards, but they can only be handed out once per nation.

One of the most notorious fountains was the lake in Rabao, which grew quite famous for producing Rusty Caps. Fishermen would gear themselves up to catch items, then bring in as many Caps as they could. With enough Smithing skill, the Rusty Caps could be transformed into Padded Caps, which were then sold at an NPC vendor for a very good price. This was so profitable that Rabao always had fishbots present, 24/7, until SE nerfed the hell out of the price of padded caps at the NPC.


A sink is a place where gil is permanently taken out of the economy. This can happen in a lot of different ways and is a primary way to keep inflation in check. The requirement for a sink that the gil must be permanently gone. Changes in the price of commodities do not count, nor would gil lost gambling at a Jeuno casino; if gil is moving between players it is not a true sink.



Fountains

Repeatable Quest rewards

Sale of items to NPCs
  • Fish
  • Random objects
  • Weapon and Armor drops
  • etc

  • Gil dropped from kills
  • from Beastmen
  • from certain other monsters (Gods)

  • Gil spawned from treasure chests

    Gil can be awarded from BCNMs

    THF's Mug command can steal thousands of gil from NMs

    And you can fish up 1 gil, from time to time.



    Sinks

    Transport
    Chocobo fees
    Airship fees
    Selibina-Mhaura ferry fees
    Regional (outpost) teleport fees
    Solo ENM Goblin Teleport NPC (Gambling for the key item)


    Taxation
    Auction House listing fees
    10% Bazaar Tax in Jeuno


    Pay 2 Play
    Dynamis Hourglass
    Limbus/Apollyon fees


    Commodities
    Sale of items from NPC vendors
  • items from guild shops (particularly consumables)
  • items from region vendors
  • items from weapon/armor shops (rarely done as prices are above market)
  • Anima creation (2k for an item you can't re-sell)


    Special questy things
    Purchase of Mannequins
    Purchase of Colored Chips (`Strange Apparatus` quest)
    `Inside the Belly` quest


    Player Maintenance
    Title-change fees
    Equipment storage fees (Lower Jeuno NPC)
    Changing Nation Allegiance
    Worldpass fee


    Other
    Synthesis Image Enhancement

    -----------

    Theres more gil being taken out of the economy then put in.
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    #37 Dec 21 2005 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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    there are more way to put gil out of the economy, not necessary more gil taken out of the economy. ( the "prouf" is the dcurrent inflation )

    npcing objects is just a huge gil into the economy:
    - commons drops sold often for more to npc than on AH ( ie most dropped spells like fire II and such )
    - people levelling crafts and npcing results ( more common than you can even imagine, on my crafting carrier, I probably npc more than a million gil just from synth results )
    - Npcing fish
    - from gradening, when you get leaves, they sell for more to npc than on AH, from 10 pots, you generaly get 200K worth of platinum leaves while targetting ice ore, multiply by the number of ppl doing it, it is millions every single day ( not mentioning kitron, etc )
    - lazy pploften just npc thng that sell for less than 10K a stack, instead of waiting for stacks with a full moghous and bag.
    - probably more volume, from other means I don't know about


    even with big sink like npc ( commodities ) and AH fee ( taxations ) , it is hard to catch up a such big fountain.

    edit : about the sudden inflation, we can blame ppl stocking huge amount of gil, and sending them into the economy at once. ( maybe gilsellers selling lots of gil at once, because high demand from gilbuyers, caused by price drop on gil, or momies present for example ), just an idea, no prouf on that

    Edited, Wed Dec 21 11:36:22 2005 by ajnag

    Edited, Wed Dec 21 11:38:24 2005 by ajnag
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    #38 Dec 21 2005 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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    I very much liked Bravura's listing of things that bring gil in and out of the economy, however I disagree with the idea that more gil is leaving the economy that entering. Of course, we really don't have any way to track the amount of gil in existence, much less the amount in circulation.

    Perhaps, as an experiment, I will track my purchases/sales for a couple days and see what I find. I'm a cook, so I spend a LOT of gil buying from NPCs!

    I always had trouble understanding the inflation in our economy for durable goods. Since there is no mechanism for armor, weapons and other durable goods 'wearing out', the supply is always increasing. I don't know the drop rates on HL items like the Venomous Claw, but taking the Scorp Harness as an example it would seem that eventually there would be enough SH for every player in the game to have one. After all, who is going to drop/desynth/NPC their SH? Those are the only ways I know of that durable goods would go out of circulation.
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    #39 Dec 21 2005 at 2:59 PM Rating: Good
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    Well, there ARE a few ways for items to leave the game.

    1.) They can be dropped. If someone does this with anything that doesn't drop off a mob somewhere, they need to be /slapped for hours on end, unless it was accidental. This is cause for /cry emotes from all concerned for a good bit. Imagine accidentally dropping a Scorpion Harness, or a Royal Cloak. It sounds farfetched, but I'VE SEEN IT HAPPEN. I've seen people quit the game because of things like this. I watched a player break down in tears in Jeuno one night when they accidentally dropped a Vermillion Cloak.

    2.) They can be sold to NPCs. This wouldn't be so bad if said NPC put the item back up for sale (which I believe they do in WoW and some other MMORPGs, not sure). But no, that item is gone forever.

    3.) The character can quit the game, and all items on them are lost. This is very rare, but it DOES happen.

    I'm not saying any of these are at all common, but they DO happen.
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    #40 Dec 22 2005 at 5:41 AM Rating: Good
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    The most substantial culprit in creating the inflation that we see today is selling to NPC. This has historically been especially bad with fishermen due to the common practice of fishermen to fish up rare fish and then NPC for gil. It is the only craft that relies heavily on NPCs rather than the AH to make gil. If you think about it, fishermen fish to skill up, catching rare fish that at times do not have a substantial demand on the AH, so these fishermen just sell their fish off to NPCs to save time and AH slots. Over time this adds significantly to the amount of gil in circulation, although this problem was altered significantly in an update over a year ago when SE changed prices that fishermen recieved for fished up items or fish it is still a problem that contributes to inflation.The rusty caps craze of last year was the worst epidemic of this sorts that I've ever seen in this game and caused incredible inflation, which prompted SE to make the changes mentioned above.

    Another way to look at this is to get away from just the total gil in population issue, but to look at the ratio of gil in circulation to the number of sellable items in circulation. If you divide the amount of gil by total number of sellable items in circulation, you will arrive at an average gil value per item. The higher this value is, the more people will be willing to pay for items, because items will have a greater relative value, which will raise average prices through simple inflation. Increasing the number of items in circulation decreases the average value of gil per item, which will decrease prices through market saturation. I hate to say it, but someone dropping a SH or aristocat's cloak actually makes inflation worse rather than better. It doesn't remove gil from circulation, rather it removes a valuable item from circulation, thus decreasing item supply while the demand remains stable, which will increase prices. Look at the items that are rising drastically in price, they are consumables. This means that gil spent on these items continues to make the problem worse by removing items from circulation. Making the item/gil ration worse.

    Another contributer to price increases is the increase in the average level of players. Now that most NA players are 75, they are getting their gil from different means, like HNM and sky rather than typical farming. This means that there are fewer regular farmers out there farming things like beehive chips. This means that fewer items are being introduced to circulation, which means a lower supply and an increase in price. This is less a result of inflation and more a result of shifting market values. This is also partially a result of higher level players needing consumables like silent oils for dynamis, sky, and other HL activities, which raises demand. As people notice the jump in beehive chip prices, more farmers will go out to get a chunk of the profit, which will raise the supply of beehive chips and even out prices.

    There's more going on here, but my best advice is to stay away from NPCing items if you can avoid it, and exploit AH price fluctuations when possible. Capitalism and the free-market economy is based on greed, it uses it to make it work. Now people might say that this isn't the same as a true free-market economy, and it isn't, but it's pretty darn close, and it seems to respond just like a real world economy in most ways.

    Wow, my first post in a while, sorry that I got so long winded.
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    #41 Dec 22 2005 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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    Quote:
    Um, this isn't a real economy.

    It's a free market economy, which is run by the consumers. How is it not a real economy? The producer sets the prices, consumers buy the item if they feel it is worth their money. If not, then prices will likely drop. If many people feel that it is worth their money then prices will either rise or there will likely be a shortage of goods (XBOX360.) Like in real life, money is made. We print millions of dollars per year in the US. On top of that, banks loan out money that they don't have. Banks loan out money that doesn't even exist. So while more gil may be made per day in Vana'diel, in the real life economy we are creating money out of thin air (and that money will never exist.)

    As someone said, money leaves in game. But, I think we can all agree that there is more money in the game than there was a year ago. The same can be said about real life though. Sure, money falls apart or is lost in real life. But there is DEFINATELY more money now then there was 10 years ago.

    Vana'diel IS a real economy, sorry. It follows all the laws of economy.
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    #42 Dec 22 2005 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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    Hey if anyone needs something like silent oil crafted and the AH is being... well the AH... :P

    I'm a 70+ alchemist (also 70+ cloth but that doesn't really help) so I can craft stuff like beeswax, silent oil, etc... and while there's no HQ guarentee, I'd be happy to help people craft from their own farmed materials to save that crazy cash bump.

    Name's Boomstick, obviously on gilgamesh and while I'm not around at lot lately due to an injury I'll help if I'm on and you need it.

    And if you don't trust me (i'm probably a stranger to most of you so why would you) then we can always work out a trade (say you hold some of my cash while I craft for you).

    Anyway if I'm online feel free to /tell boomstick if you have the materials and need something alchemic (up to 70ish) crafted and want to avoid AH prices.
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    #43 Dec 27 2005 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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    Price has come down slightly to 30k a stack. Still pretty steep. Last night did a part of ZM5 and it took ridiculously long to get to the headstone. Way longer than it should of. Out of the non-mage members, only one had powers and oils. Even while Sneaking/Invis people, it would wear and oh look aggro and then spending 10 minutes on a fight because of all the links. This is getting a little ridiculous.

    And for the record, I do have Alchemy high enough to make these with ease, but did not go out and cash in on this latest craze. Maybe I'm foolish for not doing so, but this ain't right. Even with the bloated costs of beehive chips and slime oils, if you can HQ these, you are making a killing.
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    #44 Dec 27 2005 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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    lickwidsnake wrote:
    Price has come down slightly to 30k a stack. Still pretty steep. Last night did a part of ZM5 and it took ridiculously long to get to the headstone. Way longer than it should of. Out of the non-mage members, only one had powers and oils. Even while Sneaking/Invis people, it would wear and oh look aggro and then spending 10 minutes on a fight because of all the links. This is getting a little ridiculous.


    exfreakinglatly!

    If SE wants to give us missions and what not in some of these god forsaken areas then at least have a NPC that sells Silent oils at a decent price (10k-15k) a stack in Jeuno and the major cities.

    They may make some things a little to easy. Hmmm. Well make meds available somehow...bah this Flu has warped my senses and I just lost my train of thought and ability to think...sorry
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    #45 Dec 27 2005 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
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    Quote:
    then at least have a NPC that sells Silent oils at a decent price (10k-15k) a stack in Jeuno and the major cities.


    I honestly don't think this is the solution. That's like saying that we should take away the profit you can make from woodworking by HQing bolts, or the extra money that the Bonecrafter's make off of Erimite's Ring +1.

    This is a profit item for Alchemists, and the root of the problem isn't those "GODDAMN GREEDY ALCHEMISTS" it's the damn gilsellers that have jacked up the prices on the material cost to make these. The gilsellers no longer farm Slime Oil anymore, to my knowledge, so what's you guy's excuse? It's the normal players who did a good percentage of this price jacking. If you don't want to get bent over the barrel for Silent Oil, why don't you stop trying to charge so much a stack when you farm the materials for it?

    ...Oh, that's right. You've gotta turn a "profit." Even if it's imaginary.
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    #46 Dec 28 2005 at 4:07 AM Rating: Decent
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    high demand prices fly high

    alchemist has to pay overpriced food, that's why they sell overpriced oils XD

    blame the cooks ( lol )

    Edited, Wed Dec 28 04:11:25 2005 by ajnag
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    #47 Dec 28 2005 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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    Quote:
    That's like saying that we should take away the profit you can make from woodworking by HQing bolts, or the extra money that the Bonecrafter's make off of Erimite's Ring +1.


    No, it's really not. When the price on Oils falls on the AH to match a cheaper supply elsewhere, the material costs will fall too so that the people selling them can actually move them. At that point, you'd likely still be able to make a profit HQing Oils. And people would still buy them. There's a vendor in Port Jeuno who sells Ethers for just under 5k a piece. Yet for some reason, people still buy them from the Jeuno AH for 5-6k all the time. Convenience maybe? I dunno. The point is that nothing will really change. The amount of profit made per stack of Oils may go down, but the price to do so will also, so you'd likely spend around the same amount of gil then to make the same amount of gil as you would now. The only difference is that you would have to spend more time making more.
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    #48 Dec 28 2005 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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    high demand consumables are a "special market"

    they sell really fast, so sellers tend to undercut to sell even faster ( cause there are more than 100 of those listed on AH sometimes, that mean around 15 sellers minimum )

    prices are subjects to variation within few hours. ( due to differents factors such as : material prices, number of ppl on the server > demand, number of crafter listing the item > offer )

    same for ninja tools, some foods and some medecines.

    I wouldn't compare it to the global economy of the server.

    Edited, Wed Dec 28 10:11:16 2005 by ajnag
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    #49 Dec 28 2005 at 11:37 PM Rating: Decent
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    The economy is so messed up it's unreal...I blame lots of people/groups for it. But i always undercut the insane prices hoping someone will underbid and buy mine to help get prices down...just my 2gil.
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    #50 Dec 29 2005 at 5:07 AM Rating: Default
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    http://www.allgil.com

    Look at the prices... it's so damn cheap to buy gil now, that many people just throw their hands up, buy gil and compound the problem further. And when they can buy such a large amount for so little, the money loses value to them, and they are much more likely to just buy what they need regardless of price. Sellers realize they can get this price and continue to raise it. Gilbuyers don't care and buy it anyway.

    I'm sure there are many people who don't buy items because they feel it's not a good deal. But that's outweighed by the people with massive purchasing power, be it gilbuyers, successful HNM hunters, desperate people who need that stack of oil to go to a sky event in 10 minutes, or whatever.

    Unless they have high level friends or buy gil themselves, I can see it being quite difficult for the new Xbox 360 players to break into the economy. However once some do I'm sure prices on some things (mostly low level) will stabilize a bit.
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    #51 Dec 29 2005 at 5:55 AM Rating: Decent
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    yeah....look at these riduculous prices:


    Meat mithkabobs x12 = 9,000g

    Ochiudo's Kote = fom 3.5mil to 9 Million....in matter of days..

    Scorpion Harness = 13 Million gil.....What?!

    etc.


    Where do the people get the money to pay for all this Sh#t?!

    I really feel bad for the new users who are coming with the XBOX 360' FFXI lauch....Ouch...
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