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GOP Healthcare Plan is a Liberal Conspiracy. Follow

#102 Mar 22 2017 at 7:58 PM Rating: Good
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PROTIP:

Most of gbaji's "facts" and "links" are "misread".


gabji wrote:
"But I saw it on the internet!!!"
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#103 Mar 23 2017 at 5:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Paul Ryan and House leaders are desperately rewriting swaths of the health care bill for tomorrow's vote (with no chance of being read much less scored by the CBO) while Trump tries to horse trade pet projects with reluctant conservatives to buy their votes on the bill.

I'll wait on the appropriate outrage from the "Ho ho! Pelosi said we have to pass the law to know what's in it..." and "OMG Cornhusker Kickback!!" people. I'll probably be waiting a long time, of course.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#104 Mar 23 2017 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
My "this can't be right" radar was blaring, but for some reason I had a mental block when reading that article and kept reading it as though they were listing off just flu related deaths.
That "some reason" being you wanted something tangible to use on a topic you're speaking against and accuracy was not a requirement.
Jophiel wrote:
tries to horse trade pet projects with reluctant conservatives to buy their votes on the bill.
Also indirectly threaten. Don't forget the indirect threats.
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#105 Mar 23 2017 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Looks like the vote has been postponed to give time for people to go through with those indirect threats. Someone's mom's bakery is going to get fined because they placed a chalkboard sign on the sidewalk too close to the curb methinks.

Smiley: popcorn

Edited, Mar 23rd 2017 12:55pm by someproteinguy
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#106 Mar 24 2017 at 7:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rand Paul is urging Pence to, as President of the Senate, overturn any rulings the Senate Parliamentarian makes regarding allowing the AHCA to pass under reconciliation. You know, for all of you who pretended to care about the Democrats "subverting" the rules seven years ago merely by using reconciliation.
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#107 Mar 24 2017 at 8:12 AM Rating: Good
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You'd think they'd have an easier time passing it, what with no real opposition from Democrats and almost a decade to work on the replacement plan.

I am kind of amused that 45's new stance is basically threatening to take his ball and go home if it isn't passed this time. I guess telling them their jobs were on the line wasn't convincing enough.

Edited, Mar 24th 2017 10:31am by lolgaxe
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#108 Mar 24 2017 at 10:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Trump is the difficult customer that comes in at peak time and demands special treatment.

"I want this done right now"

"I'm a busy person I don't have time for this"

"I'm know your manager and I'll tell him you're not helping me"

"You better do what I want or I'll get you fired"

"I don't think I should have to pay for that"

"THIS GUY IS REFUSING TO HELP ME!!!!!"


"I'll taking my business elsewhere if you can't get this done"

Edited, Mar 24th 2017 9:49am by someproteinguy
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#109 Mar 24 2017 at 11:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's Business 101 to threaten to leave and imply you'll take your business to someone else, but doesn't quite have the same punch when you can't exactly take your ball to someone else's house to play. Even if he could somehow replace all the congresscritters there's still no guarantee they'd go along with the plan, much less be Republican in the first place. Which is pretty much argument number one on why you shouldn't put a businessman in charge of an economy or policy.

Especially one who is better known for their business failures than their successes.
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#110 Mar 24 2017 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe he's implying he wants to be the Canadian Prime Minister next. They could probably use wall or two, right?
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#111 Mar 24 2017 at 1:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's not even really a threat. For one thing, Trump has no choice but to move on if this fails. What else is there to do? Besides, the president only sets the legislative agenda as leader of his party with the cooperation of his party in Congress. Nothing compels Ryan to NOT hold a vote on the bill every day if Ryan bizarrely wanted to. Trump refused to have any role in the writing of this bill so what difference would it make?
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#112 Mar 24 2017 at 2:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Let the blame games begin.

Smiley: popcorn
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#113 Mar 24 2017 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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Nah, it is a threat in the same sense that holding your breath is a threat. And like you said, it's about as effective.
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#114 Mar 24 2017 at 2:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, Ryan pulled the bill.

Remember how, for the last seven years, we were assured that the GOP had a health care plan? Guess it's easier to say than to actually do, huh?
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#115 Mar 24 2017 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well in their defense they had one, it's just that only 49% of the House liked it. Kind of a disappointment that even the rather lackluster version that they were trying to peddle couldn't get off the ground. Was hoping for a good senate fight.

Oh well, next up is trying to get the budget cuts he wants through. That should be fun. Old Veterans talking about how meals on wheels going away is going leave them starving, scientists faced with fighting against having a year without any new NIH grants being funded, maybe some more tweets from the national parks people. Good times.

Edited, Mar 24th 2017 1:53pm by someproteinguy
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#116 Mar 24 2017 at 3:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Trump is trying to blame the defeat on a lack of Democratic support for maximum pathetic effect. Guess he doesn't understand who the majority party is.
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#117 Mar 27 2017 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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Jared Kushner gets his own office to "harvest ideas from the business world," while Ivanka is ... the official babysitter of the 70 year old toddler-in-chief. Nepotism works, they're competing with the Kennedys here.
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#118 Mar 27 2017 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Trump is trying to blame the defeat on a lack of Democratic support for maximum pathetic effect. Guess he doesn't understand who the majority party is.
That was yet another 'roll the eyes' moment. Assuming it was a half-assed attempt to deflect blame, as you wouldn't really expect the people responsible for putting the plan together in the first place to go along with someone else's plans to tear it apart. Smiley: rolleyes
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#119 Mar 27 2017 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Jared Kushner gets his own office to "harvest ideas from the business world," while Ivanka is ... the official babysitter of the 70 year old toddler-in-chief. Nepotism works, they're competing with the Kennedys here.
Should probably stay away from Dallas then.
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#120 Mar 27 2017 at 4:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hey, guys, NOBODY KNEW that health care was going to be so complicated, so stop bein' all meanie-head about it.
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#121 Mar 27 2017 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Paul Ryan and House leaders are desperately rewriting swaths of the health care bill for tomorrow's vote (with no chance of being read much less scored by the CBO) while Trump tries to horse trade pet projects with reluctant conservatives to buy their votes on the bill.

I'll wait on the appropriate outrage from the "Ho ho! Pelosi said we have to pass the law to know what's in it..." and "OMG Cornhusker Kickback!!" people. I'll probably be waiting a long time, of course.


someproteinguy wrote:
Looks like the vote has been postponed to give time for people to go through with those indirect threats. Someone's mom's bakery is going to get fined because they placed a chalkboard sign on the sidewalk too close to the curb methinks.

Smiley: popcorn


I'm assuming a "long time" includes "later today"? Sorry, just found this sequence to be hilarious. I think I'll go back to my original point on page one where I mentioned how if the GOP moves forward quickly it's all about them doing the same "pass it before we read it" thing the Dems did with Obamacare, but if they have disagreements and questions and push the bill back and forth to make changes, it's "OMG! The GOP is in disarray and can't even agree among themselves!!!".

How about "this is the normal process of writing legislation" and we go forward from there?
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#122 Mar 27 2017 at 7:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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You cried long and hard about the Democrats while I laughed at your naive ideas of politics and now it's all "La de dah, this is just how it's done!" Smiley: laugh

Look, it's fine. Absolutely no one expected different from you. Just funny to see it so clearly illustrated.
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#123 Mar 27 2017 at 7:08 PM Rating: Decent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Trump is trying to blame the defeat on a lack of Democratic support for maximum pathetic effect. Guess he doesn't understand who the majority party is.
That was yet another 'roll the eyes' moment.
Smiley: rolleyes

You're gonna totally kill the resale value with that kind of mileage.
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#124 Mar 27 2017 at 7:11 PM Rating: Decent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Well in their defense they had one, it's just that only 49% of the House liked it. Kind of a disappointment that even the rather lackluster version that they were trying to peddle couldn't get off the ground. Was hoping for a good senate fight.


Eh. The Ryan plan was to go with just a reconciliation process, so as to avoid a potential filibuster in the Senate. The problem was that this would preclude most of the changes that were in the GOP "health care plan". In other words, not so much a replacement of the ACA, but a modification to it. Which a lot of conservatives were not happy with. Again. I honestly see this as the process working properly. If the GOP wanted to just act in lockstep and pass "something" just to be able to mark a check next to a list of action items, they could have just done so. That they didn't shows that they *gasp* actually want to pass a good law instead of just "any law".

This will force them to go back and actually write a full bill that includes the changes that Republicans have been talking about for years now. It'll take longer, but that's also not a bad thing. To be fair, I get why Ryan did this the way he did. But it doesn't surprise me that other members of the GOP didn't agree with it. it was, at best, a lukewarm "repeal and replace" of the ACA.
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#125 Mar 27 2017 at 7:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
You cried long and hard about the Democrats while I laughed at your naive ideas of politics and now it's all "La de dah, this is just how it's done!" Smiley: laugh


Huh? My criticism of the Democrats was almost entirely about their devout willingness to simply vote in lockstep with whatever their leadership proposed. I argued that this kind of "one size fits all" central government model would drive people away from the Democratic party (which it did). I argued that absence of debate within a party is frankly kinda scary (which it is).

And now, despite you predicting that the GOP would engage in exactly the kind of lockstep behavior that the Democrats did, when they *didn't* do so, you're still trying to spin the issue somehow? That makes zero sense.

Quote:
Look, it's fine. Absolutely no one expected different from you. Just funny to see it so clearly illustrated.


To be consistent in my position? I've literally argued for years that debate within a party is not a sign of collapse or disarray, but rather a sign of a party that is actually trying to represent the people and not just the powerful in the party itself. I've argued for years that this is a good thing. So yeah, when the GOP members reject a plan that their own leadership proposed, that's not in any way a problem for me.

Why would it be? The only person who was wrong here was you. So I'm not sure what you're laughing about.
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#126 Mar 28 2017 at 6:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Huh? My criticism of the Democrats was almost entirely about their devout willingness to simply vote in lockstep with whatever their leadership proposed.
Nah. You whined plenty about procedure.
Quote:
Quote:
Look, it's fine. Absolutely no one expected different from you. Just funny to see it so clearly illustrated.
To be consistent in my position?

Sure, buddy. Sure.
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So I'm not sure what you're laughing about.

This is, sadly, probably true.

Edited, Mar 28th 2017 7:46am by Jophiel
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#127 Mar 28 2017 at 7:24 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
I honestly see this as the process working properly.
Of course you do.
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#128 Mar 28 2017 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
This will force them to go back and actually write a full bill that includes the changes that Republicans have been talking about for years now. It'll take longer, but that's also not a bad thing.
It's been seven years.

Seven.

S.

E.

V.

E.

N.

That's a long time to come up with something. How much longer is it going to take to have a real solution? Repealing or replacing or modifying or doing whatever to Obamacare has been a big promise for a number of years. What have the conservative think-tanks been spending their time on?

Realistically I hate to say it, but I'm agreeing with Trump on this one. If you can't solve the problem, move on. There's problems you can solve, and there's a budget fight ahead. I get that it's a complicated issue, that there's a lot of division on how to handle health care, and that getting consensus is difficult. How long do you wait for that though? Would think that it's more likely that given the amount of time they had, and the importance of the issue, that there simply isn't a popular enough consensus solution available. Hence we get what we saw last week.

Edited, Mar 28th 2017 10:11am by someproteinguy
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#129 Mar 28 2017 at 10:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Paul Ryan and House leaders are desperately rewriting swaths of the health care bill for tomorrow's vote (with no chance of being read much less scored by the CBO) while Trump tries to horse trade pet projects with reluctant conservatives to buy their votes on the bill.

I'll wait on the appropriate outrage from the "Ho ho! Pelosi said we have to pass the law to know what's in it..." and "OMG Cornhusker Kickback!!" people. I'll probably be waiting a long time, of course.


someproteinguy wrote:
Looks like the vote has been postponed to give time for people to go through with those indirect threats. Someone's mom's bakery is going to get fined because they placed a chalkboard sign on the sidewalk too close to the curb methinks.

Smiley: popcorn


I'm assuming a "long time" includes "later today"? Sorry, just found this sequence to be hilarious.
TBH I don't know what Joph was thinking. It only takes a few minutes to write a citation, and grandma has never been the type to let bills linger on the kitchen counter until the due date.

Edited, Mar 28th 2017 9:53am by someproteinguy
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#130 Mar 28 2017 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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The best thing they could do is to work out the kinks they put into the system while they were so busy trying to sabotage the ACA and take credit for fixing it.
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#131 Mar 28 2017 at 3:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
The best thing they could do is to work out the kinks they put into the system while they were so busy trying to sabotage the ACA and take credit for fixing it.



Well, wait. How does that give money to rich people?
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#132 Mar 29 2017 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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Oh, I'm sure the moral win would more than offset the imaginary amount of money they'd lose.
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#133 Mar 31 2017 at 4:25 PM Rating: Good
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Gbaji wrote:
I think I'll go back to my original point on page one where I mentioned how if the GOP moves forward quickly it's all about them doing the same "pass it before we read it" thing the Dems did with Obamacare,



People keep attacking the DEMS for rushing to pass the bill as if any GOP was willing to work with them to pass or enhance it. The GOP has done nothing but attack the ACA and vote to defund it. Looking back, they made the best strategic move.


Gbaji wrote:
but if they have disagreements and questions and push the bill back and forth to make changes, it's "OMG! The GOP is in disarray and can't even agree among themselves!!!".


If it were 6 or 7 years ago, you would have a point. However, it only shows that they never had a serious plan, because if they did, they would have worked out the kinks throughout those seven years.
#134 Apr 05 2017 at 8:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
I think I'll go back to my original point on page one where I mentioned how if the GOP moves forward quickly it's all about them doing the same "pass it before we read it" thing the Dems did with Obamacare,



People keep attacking the DEMS for rushing to pass the bill as if any GOP was willing to work with them to pass or enhance it.


Well. With a definition of "willing to work with them to pass or enhance it" that was restricted to "vote yes for what we want with no discussion or debate", then yes. The GOP was more than willing to work to enhance the ACA, and provided a number of proposals. All of which were rejected in committee and never got even remotely put into any form of the bill, much less anywhere near being voted on.

There's a legitimate point at which you realize that the other guy isn't listening to anything you are saying and the only response is to just throw your hands up, walk away, and make the other guy eat his own stupid mistakes. Which is exactly what happened here.

Quote:
The GOP has done nothing but attack the ACA and vote to defund it. Looking back, they made the best strategic move.


Yup. And a huge part of this was the very simple fact that it was a really really really terrible law. If the ACA was roundly popular, and had actually made health care more affordable, and actually allowed people to keep their doctors, and their coverage, and even maybe increased health care options instead of decreasing them, than the GOP could attack it all they wanted, and attempt to defund it all they wanted, and the broad public response would be to condemn them for doing so.

The fact that the opposite actually happened suggests that a heck of a lot more people are unhappy with the ACA than the other way around. That's not cheap politics, or some kind of trick. That's a "side" of our politics actually listening to what the people want rather than attempting to ram what they think it best for the people down their throats.

We're not even talking about the ACA being just a little bit unpopular. It's "probably a decent part of why we got Trump as president" unpopular. So yeah. Thanks Dems! Gah!


Quote:
Gbaji wrote:
but if they have disagreements and questions and push the bill back and forth to make changes, it's "OMG! The GOP is in disarray and can't even agree among themselves!!!".


If it were 6 or 7 years ago, you would have a point. However, it only shows that they never had a serious plan, because if they did, they would have worked out the kinks throughout those seven years.


You don realize that the members of congress, even within a party, change every couple years, right? I mean, you'd have a point if the entire GOP delegation to congress was static the whole time, and thus could all sit together and work on a plan the whole time. But that's not the case. I'm sure they could have come up with an alternative health care bill 7 years ago, that the GOP members at the time would pass. But then they'd have to make changes to it every two years to make it pass the new makeup of the house and senate.

I get that it's easy and cheap rhetoric to go with the whole "they had all this time to come up with something!" argument, but the reality is that it makes a lot more sense to wait until you do have the numbers to pass something before you start actually writing the legislation down. Because until you have those numbers, and have some sense of what those numbers will agree on, you can't accurately write something that will pass. And yeah, Ryan's plan is a good example of this. He proceeded based on what I honestly saw as an older/simpler attempt to end run around the ACA. One that maybe would have flown 4-5 years ago with the GOP makeup at the time, but isn't sufficient for the crop of GOP members in office today.

Times change. The makeup of the congress changes. The demands of those offices change. This is exactly why the correct solution should have involved starting from scratch, not based on what we could/should/would have done 7 years ago, but based on what we should be doing *now*. Even the fact that many aspects of the ACA have already been put in place, changes the equation in terms of how you go about "repealing and replacing" it. Before the ACA takes effect, it's easy. Just repeal it and no one's affected. As more parts of the ACA have an impact on our health care system, you can't just do that simple solution anymore.

Ryan miscalculated that, and it was the right call for the GOP to reject his overly simplistic attempt. Again, this is how the process should work. The GOP certainly could have just followed their leadership like the Dems did back in 2009/2010 and just pass whatever bill was put in front of them. That they didn't, speaks volumes IMO.
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#135 Apr 05 2017 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
I'm sure they could have come up with an alternative health care bill 7 years ago, that the GOP members at the time would pass.
They didn't, which is kind of the point.

ALSO: If you think "wait 'till the last second" is better then "planning ahead" then I guess it's a good thing you are not a lawmaker. Or a parent.

Edited, Apr 5th 2017 8:28pm by Bijou
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#136 Apr 05 2017 at 8:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm sure they could have come up with an alternative health care bill 7 years ago, that the GOP members at the time would pass.
They didn't, which is kind of the point.


So they should have spent the time and energy actually writing the legislation itself, knowing that it would never come to a vote, and that they'd almost certainly have to completely re-write it when/if they ever do have the numbers for a vote? That's... dumb. There's a huge difference in time/effort/money between writing up some position documents on what you'd like a law to do in principle, and actually writing the legislation. You don't spend that time/effort/money writing legislation until you, you know, actually have the ability to put it to a vote.

Quote:
ALSO: If you think "wait 'till the last second" is better then "planning ahead" then I guess it's a good thing you are not a lawmaker. Or a parent.


Except that "wait to plan the details until you know you can actually do something with them" is a pretty sound way to go through life. I'm reasonably certain that you usually wait to get hotel reservations until you know that you (and the rest of your family/group) have time off to go and can afford the trip, right? In all probability, you may discuss the idea of said trip long before that point though, right? Same deal. There's a huge gap between "let's figure out what kind of vacation we'd like to go on" and actually planning the trip, setting the dates and itinerary, paying for reservations, buying airline tickets, etc. And yes, you always wait to do those last steps until you know you have the ability to go. You do the specific planning as late as possible, exactly because you don't want to have things change between when you're committed and when you actually go. It's called being flexible. And it's perfectly normal.

Most people wait until their child actually applies for and is accepted to a college before they start filling out the aid forms and picking a meal plan, housing plan, etc (and even deciding which, of the schools they got accepted to, they're going to attend). Right? You could start doing that when they're in grade school, but that would be strange. But, you'd never criticize a parent for wanting their kid to "go to college", despite not yet having worked out all those details. I mean, you're trying to make it out like something we all do all the time is somehow strange or unusual.

It's not. And neither is waiting to write the details of a piece of legislation until you have the ability to pass it unusual either.

Of course, you are correct that there is political value in presenting the idea of a proposed law ahead of time. I'm not denying that at all. However, that does not mean that it's not prudent to wait to see what the political landscape actually looks like at the time before putting pen to paper and writing that law. That's just smart IMO.
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#137 Apr 05 2017 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Most people wait until their child actually applies for and is accepted to a college before they start filling out the aid forms
No. You are wrong on this one.
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People often say that if someone doesn't agree then, they don't understand their point. That's not true. Sometimes they don't agree with it.
#138 Apr 05 2017 at 8:57 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
So they should have spent the time and energy actually writing the legislation itself, knowing that it would never come to a vote?
Why would a GOP controlled congress not vote on their own legislation? (2010)
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People often say that if someone doesn't agree then, they don't understand their point. That's not true. Sometimes they don't agree with it.
#139 Apr 05 2017 at 10:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
You don realize that the members of congress, even within a party, change every couple years, right?

Not all of them (not even most) and not most of the leadership. This is an extremely lame excuse for the GOP failing to produce a workable plan with seven years notice.

Let's be honest here: They didn't even have a framework for a workable plan. The devil wasn't in the details, it was in the fact that one significant faction of the GOP is screaming "REPEAL OR NOTHING!!!" and another significant faction is saying "Oh shit, when 40% of my base in my district loses their insurance, I'm fucked."
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#140 Apr 06 2017 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Most people wait until their child actually applies for and is accepted to a college before they start filling out the aid forms and picking a meal plan, housing plan, etc (and even deciding which, of the schools they got accepted to, they're going to attend). Right?
Most people don't tell their kids all through their schooling that they have the money to pay for their kid's college of choice and once it's time to actually send them off just shrug their shoulders and say that it was too hard to pay for it.
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#141 Apr 06 2017 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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"Mom! Dad! I've graduated and am ready for college! You told me for the last seven years we had a plan for this, right?"

"Uh, sure... the, uh, plan was that, you know, it would, uh... happen. I sorta wanted to do it this way but your mom says it has to be that way and, uh, I guess we never actually discussed it until ten minutes ago and so... uh.... good luck!"
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#142 Apr 06 2017 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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"And even though we told you there was a plan to continue, it's your teacher's fault for giving you an education and then not helping us pay for your college."
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#143 Apr 07 2017 at 11:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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#144 Apr 07 2017 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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The previous three posts sound like republican politicians talking about replacing the ACA
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#145 Apr 07 2017 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Most people wait until their child actually applies for and is accepted to a college before they start filling out the aid forms
No. You are wrong on this one.


Eh. Ok. You can "start" filling them out a bit ahead of time. But not much earlier (Oct 1st the year before is the earliest you can file). Um... you still do have to have at least a list of schools you think you will be attending though. The point I was going after was that the aid itself (ie: the details) isn't finalized (can't be finalized) until you're accepted to a school, existing tuition is known, all grants and scholarships and other forms of aid are included, etc. The money is sent to the school on your behalf. They have to know where to send the check, and how much to send.

Crappy analogy, I admit, but I was just listing off a set of things to illustrate the point that in most things in life you normally start with a broad set of objectives and then narrow down the details as you get closer to actually doing whatever it is you're doing. That's "normal". And yeah, passing legislation is similar. You start out with a broad set of objectives, and then narrow them down to specific details as you get closer to vote time.

And in response to Joph's point, the makeup of the GOP in terms of voting members has changed significantly in the past 8 years, and specifically the voting blocks within the GOP has changed. More importantly, the impact of the ACA has changed over time as more of it has gone from "something that will happen if we don't stop it", to "something that is happening now, but we can still change X, Y, or Z", to "something that has happened, and a number of additional effects have occurred as a result, and any change we make now has to take those into account".

A legislative change that would have worked 6-7 years ago wont work today. So no, it's not as simple as saying they had all that time to write a law. The needs of that law have changed continually over the entire period of time in question.
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#146 Apr 07 2017 at 4:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lame excuse still. The GOP may have changed but the most significant change was the Tea Party take-over in 2010.

So, uh... six years to plan instead of seven? Got me there I guess. More to the point, that six years was spent insisting that there were great awesome plans for health care a'comin.

Edited, Apr 7th 2017 5:42pm by Jophiel
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#147 Apr 07 2017 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Lame excuse still. The GOP may have changed but the most significant change was the Tea Party take-over in 2010.


That would be Freedom Caucus, and 2015. Which kinda puts a massive gaping hole in the "OMG! They had 6/7 years to write the legislation" claim.

Quote:
So, uh... six years to plan instead of seven? Got me there I guess. More to the point, that six years was spent insisting that there were great awesome plans for health care a'comin.


Wrong. More like maybe a year and a half. And it's not like the GOP in the house and senate had any greater knowledge that they'd be writing legislation that would have to pass a Republican president instead of a Democratic one than the rest of us (which is pretty much zero if you recall).

I get that in a perfect world, politicians would just write the legislation they think is best and move forward with it, in some kind of "pass or bust!" scenario. But that's not really how our system works. You write a version of that legislation that you think you can pass. If I were to speculate, I'd say that the GOP members assumed that Clinton would be president right now, and any changes they made to the ACA would just be changes, not full repeal/replace. Which explains why they didn't have a fully written piece of legislation in hand. Having won the presidency, the leadership chose to go with the quick route of reconciliation. Basically, what they thought they could get through with Clinton in office. The more conservative members of the house decided that with a Republican in the White House they could and should pass a more sweeping change and thus rejected it.

It's not the GOP rejecting a change. They're pushing for more change, now that they believe they have the power to make that greater change. It's not an act coming from a position of weakness, but a realization that they have more strength and support than they thought they were going to have, and thus should actually use that to push for something more than a half measure. If you interpreted the vote as some sort of lack of support for a repeal of the ACA, you totally missed what was actually going on.
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#148 Apr 07 2017 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Crappy analogy, I admit
If you didn't use crappy analogies, you'd get less flack. Just sayin'.
gbaji wrote:
Which explains why they didn't have a fully written piece of legislation in hand.
They didn't have anything which is, again, the point. They couldn't come up with even a basic framework for something different since the ACA passed? Really? Maybe you GOP folk should get more competent and concerned people on your team.
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#149 Apr 07 2017 at 6:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Lame excuse still. The GOP may have changed but the most significant change was the Tea Party take-over in 2010.
That would be Freedom Caucus, and 2015.

Which was made out of people elected through the Tea Party wave elections. The Freedom Caucus was founded by Mick Mulvaney who was elected as part of the wave of 2010.

You, uh, have no idea of the history of your own party, do you?

Edited, Apr 7th 2017 7:10pm by Jophiel
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#150 Apr 07 2017 at 6:34 PM Rating: Good
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Go and watch some news, newsboy.

A-hyuk hyuk hyuk, schooled him right good ah reckon'.
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#151 Apr 07 2017 at 7:21 PM Rating: Good
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How many times did they push for votes to repeal the ACA? Were those just to abolish it, or were they also trying to replace it?
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