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The Civic Lesson every American should need.Follow

#1 Sep 06 2016 at 8:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jim Wright wrote a great essay on his Facebook page that was share far and wide over the last week. He got lots of praise for it and also the normal amount of hate mail which he share some of the funnies ones over the course of the week. With his permission it got publish over on AmericanX also.

Well he expanded on the original essay over on his Blog, StoneKettle Station.

This is what my mother and father taught me growing up. Respect for America and it's Flag must be earn and when it isn't we have a Right in this country to sit down, walk out or raise our fists in protest, while it is sung or played , when ever and where ever.

When they came to watch me walk across my High School stage and receive my HS diploma, they didn't stand for either the Nation Anthem or Pledge of alliance. They lived through too much of their lives seeing how hateful and ugly America can be to it's citizens to be able to respect either. They love America and spent all their lives working to make life better for all of us. They taught me how important it is to vote in each election and if your candidate didn't win the primary, to vote for the better of the two that did. Most of all, though they were against going to war, for most reasons, they taught me there where times when we must go into battle. They honor military service of others, while hoping none of their children would have to serve.

So please read Jim Wright's essay and think about why Colin Kaepernick has exercised his right of Free Speech.
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#2 Sep 06 2016 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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Why is an illiterate man working as a political essayist? That's the question I'll be pondering.
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#3 Sep 06 2016 at 8:33 AM Rating: Good
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If he was a woman, would she be getting the same amount of shares as him? Classic Elne misogyny.
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#4 Sep 06 2016 at 8:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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ElneClare wrote:
Kaepernick has exercised his right of Free Speech.
Meh, he sat during a two minute song. Get back to me when he actually does something. Like taking the money from the increase in merchandise sales and gives it to organizations he says he's sitting down for.
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#5 Sep 06 2016 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
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Well, it's cost him in the sense that there's a massive backlash against him and it's (maybe?) helped in that he's caused a massive national conversation. I mean, that these things are true is ******* stupid, but they are.
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#6 Sep 06 2016 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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Did you even take the time to read the whole essay? He's human and I wish I was able to write a sentence with less spelling and grammar mistakes, then he may make in one essay. He doesn't have someone edit them before hand. It's what we minions do, and he always respects those who point out his mistakes and corrects them, while thanking us.

BTW if you hadn't realize, I didn't quote any of his essay in my post.
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#7 Sep 06 2016 at 9:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you want a better nation, you have to be better citizens.
That's crazy talk. Smiley: rolleyes
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#8 Sep 06 2016 at 10:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Did you even take the time to read the whole essay? He's human

Certainly his highest qualification.

Yeah, I read the article. Your parents must have used you as a yo-yo if you think sentimental appeals to Americans' self perception as the 'the good guys' travel an inch beyond your borders. I'm glad he's not as much of a war-mongering child killer as your other hero, but his clumsy, sappy tripe is about as relevant and appealing to me as a Backstreet Boys reunion tour.

You don't need an editor to produce a professional piece of content that doesn't look like it was drafted in crayon. You just need to give a ****.
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#9 Sep 06 2016 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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More of an NSYNC guy I take it?


Edited, Sep 6th 2016 12:39pm by Allegory
#10 Sep 06 2016 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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They're just on hiatus!
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#11 Sep 07 2016 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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Those boybands need to make another direct-to-ScyFy movie.
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#12 Sep 07 2016 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
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Be the nation he can respect.

No one person, especially a mediocre QB riding the reputation of one good season, is the moral arbiter of America.
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#13 Sep 07 2016 at 5:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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ElneClare wrote:
So please read Jim Wright's essay and think about why Colin Kaepernick has exercised his right of Free Speech.


Kaepernick is entitled to his speech, and Mr. Wright is entitled to his opinion, but those facts don't make them correct on the issue, nor in line with how most people feel about the issue itself. I think that the essay misses a key point. Yes, respect has to be earned, but that's not the issue here. When standing and showing respect for the flag during the national anthem, you are not showing respect to the piece of cloth flapping in the breeze, nor to the person singing the song, nor to the current state of the country itself, it's policies, laws, etc. You are showing respect to the ideals that the country strives to achieve, as represented by the very constitution he speaks of. He got it in the first part, that the founding fathers were not perfect and knew that the nation they were creating was not perfect (they allowed for the institution of slavery, after all, despite it being clearly in opposition to the most basic concept of rights that they were using as the founding principle of the nation).

It's the ideal that the flag represents. It's the ideal that you are saluting when you salute it. And it's the ideal that you are respecting when you stand for the anthem. My issue with Kaepernick is that by refusing to show that respect, he isn't making a statement about the current state of the US but essentially saying that the ideals are wrong. This is essentially "giving up" on the concept of a nation based on the rights of individuals ever being able to be "good" in his eyes. And the problem with that is that when you don't care about something, you're not likely to spend any effort fixing it or maintaining it. When people say they love their country, they aren't idiots who are unaware of the flaws, but rather that they believe that if they work to make the country better, it can come as close as possible to the ideals that we all (presumably) hold. If you hate your country, then what? Are you going to work to fix it? Why? You've just stated, quite emphatically that you don't just dislike the country, but the ideals that the country is founded on.

Because that's what the flag really represents. And yeah, you have the freedom to disrespect it. To burn it in effigy if you want. To stomp on it if you want. But you can't do that and then claim you are trying to make things "better". You're just making a show. And mostly you're showing your own misunderstanding of what the flag and anthem really are about. Again, how can you possibly strive to make the US a better country, if you don't know what the ideals of the country are, nor seem to care about them? Now maybe he's just misinformed and he thinks that standing for the anthem means accepting the status quo of the nation as it is now, and that's something he doesn't want to do. And I can even understand that. But that is his own misunderstanding of things. If that was what it was about then you'd have to conclude that the founders didn't really think slavery was wrong, because they thought respect for the symbols of the nation was important, even while knowing quite well that the nation they had built was far from perfect.


It's the ideals that matter in this case. Because it's a symbol of those ideals. And that's what Kaepernick is disrespecting when he refuses to stand for the anthem. And yeah, I have an issue with that.
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#14 Sep 07 2016 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Demea wrote:
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Be the nation he can respect.
No one person, especially a mediocre QB riding the reputation of one good season, is the moral arbiter of America.

Tell that to all the people who spontaneously orgasmed whenever Tebow would take a knee in prayer.
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#15 Sep 07 2016 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
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He's not a mediocre QB anymore; he's a shitty, god-awful baseball wannabe.
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#16 Sep 07 2016 at 8:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Demea wrote:
Quote:
Be the nation he can respect.
No one person, especially a mediocre QB riding the reputation of one good season, is the moral arbiter of America.

Tell that to all the people who spontaneously orgasmed whenever Tebow would take a knee in prayer.


Fair or not, anyone with celebrity status tends to have an impact on other people, and at least in the case of most sport figures, are viewed by many as role models. I don't think that makes them the "arbiters" of anything, but others do look up to them, and thus expect a degree of reasonable behavior from them. At the very least, the NFL makes a decent portion of its earnings on things like ticket sales and merchandise (like say, player's numbers on shirts and hats). These are driven in large part by people's desires to see their favorite teams and their favorite players play the game. When players behave badly, it hurts the franchise. And yes, "badly" is a subjective term. But for a whole lot of people, when their kids ask them why Kaepernick didn't do what they were taught you're supposed to do during the anthem, it's going to be a blow to their desire to continue supporting said franchise with their ticket purchases. At the very least, a lot of people aren't going to buy anything with his name or number on it as a direct result of his choice.

If he's cool with that, then that's fine. It's his choice, and he's free to make it. I just think it's an incredibly misguided method of protest. He's not drawing attention to anything other than himself. And not in a good way.
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#17 Sep 07 2016 at 9:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
ElneClare wrote:
So please read Jim Wright's essay and think about why Colin Kaepernick has exercised his right of Free Speech.


Kaepernick is entitled to his speech, and Mr. Wright is entitled to his opinion, but those facts don't make them correct on the issue, nor in line with how most people feel about the issue itself. I think that the essay misses a key point. Yes, respect has to be earned, but that's not the issue here. When standing and showing respect for the flag during the national anthem, you are not showing respect to the piece of cloth flapping in the breeze, nor to the person singing the song, nor to the current state of the country itself, it's policies, laws, etc. You are showing respect to the ideals that the country strives to achieve, as represented by the very constitution he speaks of. He got it in the first part, that the founding fathers were not perfect and knew that the nation they were creating was not perfect (they allowed for the institution of slavery, after all, despite it being clearly in opposition to the most basic concept of rights that they were using as the founding principle of the nation).

It's the ideal that the flag represents. It's the ideal that you are saluting when you salute it. And it's the ideal that you are respecting when you stand for the anthem. My issue with Kaepernick is that by refusing to show that respect, he isn't making a statement about the current state of the US but essentially saying that the ideals are wrong. This is essentially "giving up" on the concept of a nation based on the rights of individuals ever being able to be "good" in his eyes. And the problem with that is that when you don't care about something, you're not likely to spend any effort fixing it or maintaining it. When people say they love their country, they aren't idiots who are unaware of the flaws, but rather that they believe that if they work to make the country better, it can come as close as possible to the ideals that we all (presumably) hold. If you hate your country, then what? Are you going to work to fix it? Why? You've just stated, quite emphatically that you don't just dislike the country, but the ideals that the country is founded on.

Because that's what the flag really represents. And yeah, you have the freedom to disrespect it. To burn it in effigy if you want. To stomp on it if you want. But you can't do that and then claim you are trying to make things "better". You're just making a show. And mostly you're showing your own misunderstanding of what the flag and anthem really are about. Again, how can you possibly strive to make the US a better country, if you don't know what the ideals of the country are, nor seem to care about them? Now maybe he's just misinformed and he thinks that standing for the anthem means accepting the status quo of the nation as it is now, and that's something he doesn't want to do. And I can even understand that. But that is his own misunderstanding of things. If that was what it was about then you'd have to conclude that the founders didn't really think slavery was wrong, because they thought respect for the symbols of the nation was important, even while knowing quite well that the nation they had built was far from perfect.


It's the ideals that matter in this case. Because it's a symbol of those ideals. And that's what Kaepernick is disrespecting when he refuses to stand for the anthem. And yeah, I have an issue with that.
A rare occasion where I agree with gbaji.

Rate-ups for you, you nut.
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#18 Sep 07 2016 at 11:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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...

Edited, Sep 8th 2016 12:16am by Jophiel
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#19 Sep 07 2016 at 11:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Demea wrote:
Quote:
Be the nation he can respect.
No one person, especially a mediocre QB riding the reputation of one good season, is the moral arbiter of America.
Tell that to all the people who spontaneously orgasmed whenever Tebow would take a knee in prayer.
Fair or not, anyone with celebrity status...

It was a joke. I don't give a fuck about either of them. The only reason I know either of their names is from the batshit, over the top reactions to their "thing".
gbaji wrote:
But for a whole lot of people, when their kids ask them why Kaepernick didn't do what they were taught you're supposed to do during the anthem, it's going to be a blow to their desire to continue supporting said franchise with their ticket purchases. At the very least, a lot of people aren't going to buy anything with his name or number on it as a direct result of his choice.
USA Today wrote:
ESPN’s Darren Rovell reports that Colin Kaepernick jerseys have flown off the shelves following his initial protest during the 49ers preseason game against Green Bay in August. A source confirmed to ESPN that more Kaepernick merchandise sold last week off the 49ers site than it did in the past eight months combined.
NBC wrote:
Kaepernick's No. 7 was the fifth-highest selling jersey among league members over the weekend and was slowly creeping toward the pinnacle when it locked down the top-selling spot Tuesday morning, according to NFLShop.com.

Both of Kaepernick's home and away jerseys are also the top sellers among 49ers players, according to Shop49ers.com.


Edited, Sep 8th 2016 12:23am by Jophiel
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#20 Sep 08 2016 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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Friar Bijou wrote:
]A rare occasion where I agree with gbaji.
Too bad he mucked it up with his follow up post. It's actually pretty common for merchandising sales to increase after quote unquote controversies. In fact a lot of idiots buy things they normally wouldn't just to publicly destroy them.
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#21 Sep 08 2016 at 9:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
]A rare occasion where I agree with gbaji.
Too bad he mucked it up with his follow up post. It's actually pretty common for merchandising sales to increase after quote unquote controversies. In fact a lot of idiots buy things they normally wouldn't just to publicly destroy them.
This was always my favorite kind of protester. Same kind that shows up to an anti-globalization rally wearing clothes made in Singapore, talking on a cell phone assembled in China, while nursing a Starbucks Peppermint Mocha.
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#22 Sep 08 2016 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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That's not ironic, though, is it? You can't choose not to participate in globalisation as a single person, the infrastructure makes those decisions for you. I wouldn't have limited consumer choices if I said nuts to globalisation, I'd have none. I'd show up to the rally starving, with no clothes and drinking a watery acorn mash I'd made myself.

It's like saying it's hypocritical to protest Nazism because you're doing it in **** Germany. Yeah, no ****.

P.S. Anyone who cares, even slightly, whether someone kneels for the flag or not is absolutely ****** in the head.
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#23 Sep 08 2016 at 10:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kavekkk wrote:
You can't choose not to participate in globalisation as a single person, the infrastructure makes those decisions for you. I wouldn't have limited consumer choices if I said nuts to globalisation, I'd have none. I'd show up to the rally starving, with no clothes and drinking a watery acorn mash I'd made myself.
If I wanted to buy "made in America" stuff, stick to locally grown foods, only support homegrown businesses, etc it wouldn't be too difficult. There's a good number of options for those things here. I'd just be paying 25% more.
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#24 Sep 08 2016 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
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Don't be disingenuous. A made in America sticker doesn't mean something wasn't produced as a result of global manufacturing and supply chains. Most small businesses don't actually make all their own ****, either, I should point out. Most own brand goods are mass produced on one of the lines of a large multinational company. The vast majority of products anywhere will have been designed or partially (the main part if you catch my drift) assembled in another country, or will use raw materials from another country/be made by a multinational (not sure which of these makes Starbucks fall foul in your view).

You wouldn't be using a ******* computer to argue with me right now, I'll tell you that.
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#25 Sep 08 2016 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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#26 Sep 08 2016 at 11:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kavekkk wrote:
A made in America sticker doesn't mean something wasn't produced as a result of global manufacturing and supply chains. Most small businesses don't actually make all their own ****, either, I should point out. Most own brand goods are mass produced on one of the lines of a large multinational company.
Which is why you get that information from them. If you can't get it, move on to someone who's open with that information. It's not hard to get local stuff, you just have to be not lazy about it. If you can't bother to be not lazy about it, I'd wonder why you were bothering to protest. Actions speaking louder than words and such. How the heck are you going to fight globalization if you can't even be bothered to track down which products are actually local?

Kavekkk wrote:
You wouldn't be using a ******* computer to argue with me right now, I'll tell you that.
Nope wouldn't. Also wouldn't be going to an anti-globalization rally either, so at least I'm consistent in that regard.

Edited, Sep 8th 2016 10:15am by someproteinguy
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#27 Sep 08 2016 at 12:03 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
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All the hip cats use an abacus. Ironically.
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He's not a mediocre QB anymore; he's a shitty, god-awful baseball wannabe.
For the Mets no less. Smiley: mad

Okay, it's the Mets' minor league division, but still.

Edited, Sep 8th 2016 2:39pm by lolgaxe
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#28 Sep 09 2016 at 7:11 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
]A rare occasion where I agree with gbaji.
Too bad he mucked it up with his follow up post. It's actually pretty common for merchandising sales to increase after quote unquote controversies. In fact a lot of idiots buy things they normally wouldn't just to publicly destroy them.


People also rush out to buy guns and bullets when they think new gun control legislation is about to pass. That's not necessarily an indication of good news for the gun industry as a whole over time through. The point about buying them just to destroy them is amusing though. Never did quite understand that. Then again, someone had to buy that flag they burned too, so maybe it's just how things are done. Protesters are dumb.

someproteinguy wrote:
This was always my favorite kind of protester. Same kind that shows up to an anti-globalization rally wearing clothes made in Singapore, talking on a cell phone assembled in China, while nursing a Starbucks Peppermint Mocha.


Do people really seriously protest globalization? So do they think that the globe doesn't exist, or they don't like that it does? Maybe they want a flat earth or something. Cube perhaps? What do they have against globes? Smiley: confused
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#29 Sep 09 2016 at 7:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
My computer was hand carved from oak by Mennonites.
Oak. Smiley: rolleyes

Everyone knows you get a better GUI with maple.
#30 Sep 09 2016 at 8:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
People also rush out to buy guns and bullets when they think new gun control legislation is about to pass.

That has nothing to do with this unless you're implying that people are afraid that his jerseys are going to be outlawed. It's pretty much the opposite, really -- a bunch of people who likely would never buy NFL gear are buying his stuff in support as opposed to some nutjobs hoarding it before scary Obama takes it away.

Plus, as Twiz pointed out, this guy wasn't ever some amazing player that he was moving a bunch of merchandise on his record alone. Saying that less people would buy it (false that that may be) is kind of an empty threat.
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#31 Sep 12 2016 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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The Civic lesson everyone should need...But doesn't
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#32 Sep 12 2016 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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When I celebrate the American flag (or country in general) it is my idealized version of it... what it stands for. Whether or not that is actually what it is is another matter.
Some pretty standard ideas (maybe).. something about rights.
When I see people protesting against rape.. I think to myself.. "did they make rape legal?".
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#33 Sep 12 2016 at 1:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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No witnesses and no marks and you're good to go! Smiley: thumbsup
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#34 Sep 12 2016 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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Or just being a college athlete.
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#35 Sep 12 2016 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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Or Donald Trump/rich.
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#36 Sep 12 2016 at 5:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Or just being a college athlete.

Watching SJWs struggle to untangle the intersectionality of Brock Turner, sentencing reform, and open carry laws is kind of hilarious.
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#37 Sep 12 2016 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
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Didn't we have someone around here who used to brag about his souped up Honda Civic?
#38 Sep 12 2016 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
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I remember it as an Accord.
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#39 Sep 13 2016 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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After a quick search, apparently it was a Ford Focus.

Smash's parents bought a 2008 Civic. Dunno that I'm getting those confused.
#40 Sep 13 2016 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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Demea wrote:
Watching SJWs struggle to untangle the intersectionality of Brock Turner, sentencing reform, and open carry laws is kind of hilarious.
You had me at struggle. Outrage is always fun.
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#41 Sep 13 2016 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Demea wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Or just being a college athlete.

Watching SJWs struggle to untangle the intersectionality of Brock Turner, sentencing reform, and open carry laws is kind of hilarious.


It's the problem of a "one size fits all" approach to both the outrage and empathy sides of the equation. The reality is that sometimes firearm ownership is a good thing, and sometimes it's not (like say someone defending their home from an intruder versus someone brandishing it around in front of someone's house as part of a protest). Sometimes a stiff sentence for a crime is appropriate, sometimes it's not (circumstances make a huge difference in the treatment of two otherwise identical charges). And sometimes, treating offenders with empathy for the effect of the punishment on their lives is appropriate, and sometimes it's not (such as in the effect of the *** offender registry in some really ridiculous cases, like the guy mentioned in one of the associated articles in the link who did something dumb when he was 12 and is now on the registry for life).

While I know this will just stir up the ant hill (hah, but why not, right?), in the case of Turner, while I think he should have gotten a much longer sentence for his actions, I'm actually kinda on the side of his family with regard to the concept of trying to teach people about the dangers of irresponsible drinking. I read the letter the victim wrote, and it's emotional, but there's one bit that did bother me. She talks about how if she hadn't been there that night, it would have been someone else victimized by Turner. And that may be true. But the flip side is kinda true as well. Given that she chose to drink to a state of near unconsciousness, it's quite probable that had Turner not been there that night, it would have been someone else who victimized her.

And no, before anyone goes there, I'm not blaming the victim, nor excusing her assailant. I'm merely pointing out the unfortunate social reality that it's far easier for each potential victim to take steps to avoid becoming a victim then to attempt to prevent any potential assailant from choosing to assault them. The former merely requires that *you* make good choices. The latter depends on everyone else in the world choosing not to do something you don't want them to. And frankly, if we lived in that world, we wouldn't have any crime at all. That's not going to happen anytime soon, so trying to "educate" potential assailants isn't a terribly effective method to use.

Better to educate potential victims IMO. It's not the perfect solution. And it's maybe not the politically correct solution. But it's the one that would make a much greater impact on the rate of such assaults.
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#42 Sep 13 2016 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
the unfortunate social reality .
Is that the rich get away with rape.
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Anna wrote:
People often say that if someone doesn't agree then, they don't understand their point. That's not true. Sometimes they don't agree with it.
#43 Sep 13 2016 at 6:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
And no, before anyone goes there, I'm not blaming the victim, nor excusing her assailant.

No, you really are. Saying you're not doesn't make it less so.

Don't worry. Absolutely no one will be surprised by this.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#44 Sep 13 2016 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
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So when gbaji's sister is roofied and raped behind a bar, he'll post here about how she should have known better and that she shouldn't have lured that trust fund guy by her behavioUr.


SWEET.

I'm moving to San Diego.







Can someone set me up on a giant trust fund?
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Anna wrote:
People often say that if someone doesn't agree then, they don't understand their point. That's not true. Sometimes they don't agree with it.
#45 Sep 13 2016 at 7:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I'm merely pointing out the unfortunate social reality that it's far easier for each potential victim to take steps to avoid becoming a victim then to attempt to prevent any potential assailant from choosing to assault them.


Really, I should have to dress in baggy clothes that hide my figure and not drink in public, to avoid rape?

Sorry, I will dress in clothes that look good on me and that means my breast will be one of the first things men will see. In fact I've often had to deal with men who don't see past the fact that I have large breast and not much else. I spend far too much time having to deal with the "Come On's" that strangers make when I'm out by myself.

What we need is, men to learn to not think they have a right to *** with women. I shouldn't have to worry that by telling someone, I'm not interested in them, they may get angry and assault me.
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In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare

This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
#46 Sep 13 2016 at 7:23 PM Rating: Good
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Relax, ElneClare. From the aftermath of gbaji's sister's future rape he'll totaly be on the victim's side.













Unless he hates his sister, of course.
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Anna wrote:
People often say that if someone doesn't agree then, they don't understand their point. That's not true. Sometimes they don't agree with it.
#47 Sep 13 2016 at 9:07 PM Rating: Decent
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The victim being the poor soul who has to endure a few months in prison for assaulting unconscious women.
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#48 Sep 13 2016 at 9:27 PM Rating: Good
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ElneClare wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm merely pointing out the unfortunate social reality that it's far easier for each potential victim to take steps to avoid becoming a victim then to attempt to prevent any potential assailant from choosing to assault them.


Really, I should have to dress in baggy clothes that hide my figure and not drink in public, to avoid rape?

Sorry, I will dress in clothes that look good on me and that means my breast will be one of the first things men will see. In fact I've often had to deal with men who don't see past the fact that I have large breast and not much else. I spend far too much time having to deal with the "Come On's" that strangers make when I'm out by myself.

What we need is, men to learn to not think they have a right to *** with women. I shouldn't have to worry that by telling someone, I'm not interested in them, they may get angry and assault me.


I think we're ignoring the huge grey area here where a drunk man and a drunk woman have ***. A big part of the "1 in 4" statistics people like to throw about. Media is constantly plastered with stories about the "He said She said", and if the law doesn't support "She said" it's just more evidence of rape culture. But maybe those stories themselves are just planted there to promote the rape culture...

Edit:
Call me what ever you want, MRA, Alt-Right, what ever. But I'm glad I'm not going to college in this current day, for reasons beyond the cost. I graduated before this social media presence that seems to have completely removed the personal responsibility aspect of your choices as long as you are what they determined to be the "Victim". It diminishes the the real victim. Be it rape, or things like BLM. Real issues being diluted by people latching onto them to hide their poor choices, because social media has convinced them they are the victim.

(I'm still not voting "R". I think all this **** will eventually mellow out... eventually. Probably not soon enough, but eventually.)

Edited, Sep 13th 2016 11:40pm by TirithRR
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#49 Sep 13 2016 at 10:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
I think we're ignoring the huge grey area here where a drunk man and a drunk woman have ***.

Assuming you mean consensual sex (setting aside the question of consent under the influence), that's not what happened in this case so it can be safely ignored.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#50 Sep 14 2016 at 4:43 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
I think we're ignoring the huge grey area here where a drunk man and a drunk woman have ***.

Assuming you mean consensual sex (setting aside the question of consent under the influence), that's not what happened in this case so it can be safely ignored.

Which case is that? The fictional scenario where Elne responds to Gbaji's suggestion for victim training, about how that means she has to wear baggy clothing or risk being raped by anyone she says no to? The backlash against any suggestions for things like that seem to be swift and full of extremes. Suggest that we do things like make people be aware of their actions while drunk and suddenly you want there to be a free for all where if women aren't wearing hijabs they are always saying "Yes." Which does little to solve the problem.

And I would not refer to a person not consenting to have sex as "having sex". Since you know, that would suggest they are consenting and participating. But for every Brock Turner, there are dozens of Haley Linds. The 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 statistic is not coming from cases like Brock Turner.

Edited, Sep 14th 2016 6:45am by TirithRR
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#51 Sep 14 2016 at 4:49 AM Rating: Good
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I'm merely pointing out the unfortunate social reality that it's far easier for each potential victim to take steps to avoid becoming a victim then to attempt to prevent any potential assailant from choosing to assault them. The former merely requires that *you* make good choices. The latter depends on everyone else in the world choosing not to do something you don't want them to. And frankly, if we lived in that world, we wouldn't have any crime at all. That's not going to happen anytime soon, so trying to "educate" potential assailants isn't a terribly effective method to use.

Better to educate potential victims IMO. It's not the perfect solution. And it's maybe not the politically correct solution. But it's the one that would make a much greater impact on the rate of such assaults.


You first argue that an individual should protect themselves because it is easier than persuading all would be rapists not to rape them; you then argue that it is thus better as a society to educate every potential victim rather than every potential perpetrator.

But there is no connection between the two.

Scenario one is changing one person's behaviour vs changing many to keep one person safe, scenario two is changing many people's behaviour vs changing many people's behaviour to keep many people safe. Your reasoning in the first doesn't apply to the second at all.


In any case, the only scientifically proven anti-rape method is to limit social connections with men as much as possible, as the vast majority of rapes are done by men known to the victim. Wearing short skirts etc doesn't actually correlate with victimhood.
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