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#127 Feb 19 2016 at 10:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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(Twenty-)Five minutes in Heaven with Ted Cruz...
Daily Beast wrote:
Two grown men running for president met in a storage closet last night.

The meeting, called by Ted Cruz in an attempt to mend fences with Ben Carson ahead of the South Carolina primary, was held on Thursday night before the Conservative Review convention. The two huddled in the unusual venue for nearly 20 to 25 minutes, as Carson’s Secret Service detail stood outside, according to a Republican operative who witnessed the strange scene.

Carson, whose campaign has spent the weeks after Iowa blasting Cruz for lying to voters in the Hawkeye State, agreed to meet him for five minutes, according to a source close to Carson’s campaign, to try to put to bed the issue of his dirty campaign tricks in Iowa, during which Cruz’s campaign told caucus-goers that Carson had dropped out of the race.

Carson’s campaign confirmed the meeting—which was was supposed to be short and off-the-record—and blamed the Cruz campaign for leaking the fact that it occurred in an attempt to rectify his public image.
[...]
After Carson spoke at the convention, and saw Cruz in the hallway again, Cruz didn’t even look at Carson, according to the latter’s campaign.

“There was a political play there and it didn’t work for them,” a Republican operative close to the campaign told The Daily Beast. “The meeting didn’t go as well as Cruz wanted it to go. Carson had a smile on his face and was looking right at him.”

Smiley: um

Edited, Feb 19th 2016 10:08pm by Jophiel
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#128 Feb 19 2016 at 10:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
1. Totally different business models. Some people make money by building things. That's Romney.
If you think Bain Capitol didn't make a habit of buying up businesses and them breaking them to pieces to suck the marrow out....well, you're consistent.


I don't. Do you? To say that the business itself was actually set up to "break them into pieces and suck the marrow out" is just plain wrong. It's certainly unfair to look only at the failures and ignore the successes. Businesses fail whether an investment firm like Bain is involved or not. And yes, businesses fail when an investment firm like Bain is involved. But you nave to look at the big picture and the overall approach here, not just the few bad failures. And Bain had a lot more successes than failures. In fact, it had one of the best records of success of any equity firm out there.

Success rate or not, the core difference still stands though. Romney's business model was about actually building up businesses and making them successful. Trump does not do that. He just buys stuff, plays the market to increase the perceived value of those things, and then sells them at a profit. There's a reason his book is titled "The Art of the Deal" and not "How to build a successful business". He makes deals. He buys and sells things. He does not "build" them.
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#129 Feb 19 2016 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
He said that anyone who thinks only of building walls and not of building bridges is not a christian. He was being pretty metaphorical in the statement.

The right wingers frantically Tweeting about how the Vatican has a wall around it was pretty hilarious though. Especially when they'd edit the Pope's quote to remove the bridges part so they didn't have to, you know, explain why the Pope somehow meant a literal wall but not a literal bridge.


Uh... pretty sure the media misreported the story first. Just saying. Have no clue who jumped on it, and how. But I do recall that the first news stories were basically "Pope say's Trump is not a christian because he supports building a wall on the border". Not sure who went with the "but the Vatican has a wall around it", but the first person I heard that from was someone at work who is definitely *not* a conservative, and does *not* follow conservative news, and in fact mostly has liberal friends in his social media circle.

I'm sure it was the all so familiar case of one or two nutters saying something on the web somewhere and then half a million liberals repeating it over and over to everyone they can reach to make fun of "conservatives" who think this. Every single conservative I interacted with directly first responded with "that doesn't make sense, because that would apply to all the GOP candidates and not just Trump", then looked up the actual quote, realized what he said and concluded "this is just something the media is trying to make into a thing".

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True Fact: I actually got into a very brief Twitter argument with a candidate for Congress (in FL-11) when he made the same asinine "Jerusalem had a wall in Jesus' day" remark.
Jack Martin wrote:
Honestly as a pastor I am struggling with what the Popes reasoning was. Jerusalem had a wall around it in Jesus day.
I wrote:
Pope mentions bldg bridges & walls but only "walls" being taken 100% literally since that makes cute comparisons
Jack Martin wrote:
Yea, illegals coming in on bridges we build makes a lot of sense said no one ever. They have tunnels already sheesh.
I wrote:
so you understand metaphor 50% of the time. That's... Interesting, I suppose.
Jack Martin wrote:
The pope is the head of the Catholic church, not the United States of America.

I couldn't argue with that last line so I guess he won? Vote for Jack Martin, everybody! Smiley: laugh



Wow. Um... I guess you really got all us conservatives on that one. I mean, I was pretty sure that the guy from Florida who works as a inventory control supervisor at a door company in between preaching, coaching basketball, and really working up the fact that other members of his family have served in the military during his bid for congress (I guess he's a multi-tasker or something) speaks for all conservatives on this matter. Boy you really skewered us there!

Seriously. Where did you dig this guy up? I mean you kinda had to go out of your way for this one. Amusing exchange (and total lack of clue on his part), but that's hardly a fair example of how conservatives as a whole responded to this. And again, totally misses the fact that the media utterly misreported the story itself. Yes, maybe I'm just exceptional in that I assume that 80% of what's reported is wrong, and actually take the time to learn the facts behind a story before commenting on it, especially when it's a super sensational story like this one. But the fact is that most people don't do this, on both sides of the political aisle. And frankly, you can *always* find someone who falls for such a thing and gets really vocal about it. It's not really an accomplishment to find that person (although you did find a pretty exceptional example in this case, so my hats off to you on that one).

Edited, Feb 19th 2016 8:32pm by gbaji
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#130 Feb 19 2016 at 10:30 PM Rating: Good
Worst. Title. Ever!
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#131 Feb 19 2016 at 10:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Seriously. Where did you did this guy up? I mean you kinda had to go out of your way for this one.

You... have no idea how Twitter works, huh?
Quote:
And again, totally misses the fact that the media utterly misreported the story itself.

Nah, they didn't. I mean, it's pretty funny how you went from "I bet this happened" to "This is totally what happened!" though.

Edited, Feb 19th 2016 10:37pm by Jophiel
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#132 Feb 19 2016 at 10:35 PM Rating: Good
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Joph's a Celebrity in the Twittersphere. He's followed by all those Congress folk.
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#133 Feb 19 2016 at 10:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm like the Kim Kardashian of political tweets!

Edited, Feb 19th 2016 10:38pm by Jophiel
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#134 Feb 19 2016 at 10:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
(Twenty-)Five minutes in Heaven with Ted Cruz...
Daily Beast wrote:
“There was a political play there and it didn’t work for them,” a Republican operative close to the campaign told The Daily Beast. “The meeting didn’t go as well as Cruz wanted it to go. Carson had a smile on his face and was looking right at him.”

Smiley: um


Fight over who pitched and who caught? i think we know who won.


Seriously though, if I were to guess, I'd say that Cruz wanted to mend fences with Carson and try to talk him into bowing out and endorsing him, "for the good of the party, solidifying evangelical voters, blah blah blah", and Carson had none of it. Honestly though, with Ted's winning personality, I'm not sure why things didn't go better. Ok. That wasn't really honesty. It was sarcasm. Deep deep sarcasm.
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#135 Feb 19 2016 at 11:03 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Not sure who went with the "but the Vatican has a wall around it", but the first person I heard that from was someone at work who is definitely *not* a conservative, and does *not* follow conservative news, and in fact mostly has liberal friends in his social media circle.
Heh.

No.

You are lying.
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#136 Feb 19 2016 at 11:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Seriously. Where did you did this guy up? I mean you kinda had to go out of your way for this one.

You... have no idea how Twitter works, huh?


I have an idea that only the most marginally followed wanna-be-a-congressman would be engaging in a tweet back and forth with some random person on the interwebs.

Quote:
Quote:
And again, totally misses the fact that the media utterly misreported the story itself.

Nah, they didn't.


Um.. what? Did you watch the news? Wow. Not sure what to say. In the early hours of this story, it was broadly and consistently reported on all the cable news sources that the Pope had said that Trump was not a christian, followed up by a scramble to get reactions from anyone they could find who they could mic up and get to talk about it, despite nearly no one knowing what was actually said, or the context of the statements. Most of those early reports were just flat out wrong. And not a little it wrong, Completely terribly wrong.

When you report something so wrong, and then go around looking for people's responses to the wrong report, you're going to get all sorts of strong emotional responses. Which is precisely what happened. Not sure when the finally clarified the story, but today, everyone's talking about the extreme overreaction from "the right wing" to the story. Which I find at least a little bit unfair. MSNBC and CNN were certainly just as misleading about the Pope's statement yesterday, and seemed just as willing to dig into conservative reactions to the false reporting of the statement. Which, of course, is itself leading because no one bothered to go seek out "left wing" responses to the Pope's statements, so it's a bit of the cart leading the horse.


Just once, I've love to see the media react to a story like this by going to the liberal politicians and asking them what they think of this. Interesting that ABC did a whole bit asking all the "2016 candidates" what they thought about the bit between Trump and the Pope, but that list only included the Republican Candidates. So yeah, when you only seek out one side's reaction, it's easy to then make hay out of that reaction.
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#137 Feb 19 2016 at 11:06 PM Rating: Good
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1. Totally different business models. Some people make money by building things. That's Romney. Others make money by the equivalent of gambling (I win, someone else loses). That's Trump.


uh what? Trump literally built things, however shittily, and Romney was a proud corporate raider. Both leveraged to the teeth to boost returns.
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#138 Feb 19 2016 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
Quote:
1. Totally different business models. Some people make money by building things. That's Romney. Others make money by the equivalent of gambling (I win, someone else loses). That's Trump.


uh what? Trump literally built things, however shittily, and Romney was a proud corporate raider. Both leveraged to the teeth to boost returns.
gbaji is a little shakey on what a "fact" is.


Sadly.
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#139 Feb 19 2016 at 11:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Not sure who went with the "but the Vatican has a wall around it", but the first person I heard that from was someone at work who is definitely *not* a conservative, and does *not* follow conservative news, and in fact mostly has liberal friends in his social media circle.
Heh.

No.

You are lying.


/shrug

It's amazing to me how many things that "conservative are saying/doing/whatever" I don't hear from my fellow conservatives, but from liberals. I literally will get up in the morning, turn on Fox news in the background while getting ready for work, then tune into some set of conservative talk radio on the way to work, get to work, log into this site, and read all about some crazy thing that all the conservatives out there are talking about, and how stupid we are, and how wrong we are, and I literally haven't heard anyone in the actual conservative sources I watch and listen to mention it once.

Remember the whole bit about the folks that were sure that some military operations were a prelude to some kind of coup or something? Remember when I pointed out that I had not heard of this at all until mentioned here, and then later I did hear about it, but it was conservatives talking about all the liberal media sites making a huge deal out of this? Yeah. Just like that.

You guys do this constantly. It's kinda funny. Maybe actually spend some time listening or watching conservative sources sometime? You might be surprised at how little of that stuff we actually talk about (and when we do, it's usually to comment about how obsessively the left is talking about it) and how many of the topics and ideas that we actually spend time on never seem to penetrate into the liberal echo chamber. Liberal talking heads are never going to repeat anything a conservative says or does unless that action or statement reflects badly on conservatives. Period. Because their objective is not to inform, educate, or discuss, but merely to provide propaganda to support "their side". Once you get that, you'll be much better able to filter out what you are being exposed to. And far far more humorous!

Edited, Feb 19th 2016 9:13pm by gbaji
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#140 Feb 19 2016 at 11:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Seriously. Where did you did this guy up? I mean you kinda had to go out of your way for this one.

You... have no idea how Twitter works, huh?
I have an idea that only the most marginally followed wanna-be-a-congressman would be engaging in a tweet back and forth with some random person on the interwebs.

It's okay to just admit that you have no idea how Twitter works.
Quote:
Um.. what? Did you watch the news?

I read the news as it broke and the Pope's quote was in all its glory, not just "Pope says walls = bad!!!"

News from anywhere, etc.
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Belkira wrote:
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#141 Feb 19 2016 at 11:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Trump literally built things

He has a very nice hotel. Nice looking building as well although the "TRUMP" signage is a bit much. But looks nice along the skyline and the room was large and comfortable. Also, the staff gave us a free bottle of champagne ("Compliments of Donald Trump", although I assume they have to say that about everything) when we had to hit them up for a corkscrew for the old bottle of wine we brought.
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#142 Feb 19 2016 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Quote:
1. Totally different business models. Some people make money by building things. That's Romney. Others make money by the equivalent of gambling (I win, someone else loses). That's Trump.


uh what? Trump literally built things, however shittily, and Romney was a proud corporate raider. Both leveraged to the teeth to boost returns.


I'm sorry. You're correct. Trump does build things. He builds monuments to his ego.
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#143 Feb 19 2016 at 11:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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And nice hotels! I never stayed in the Romney Tower. Just sayin'.
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#144 Feb 19 2016 at 11:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
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Um.. what? Did you watch the news?

I read the news as it broke and the Pope's quote was in all its glory, not just "Pope says walls = bad!!!"


Watch the news. Watch.

Written news was much better since they did tend to have the actual quote. Um... But check out the headlines, title, and first paragraph.

Title bar: Building Walls "is not Christian".
Headline: Pope Suggests Trump "is not Christian"
First Paragraph: Thrusting himself into the combative 2016 presidential campaign, Pope Francis said Thursday that GOP front-runner Donald Trump "is not Christian" if he calls for the deportation of undocumented immigrants and pledges to build a wall between the United States and Mexico.

Remember, that's what most people use to form their opinions about the thrust of the story. The quote usually doesn't appear in most stories until the 3rd paragraph. By then? Opinion already formed. And this was hardly unique of CNN. NYT carried more or less the same exact story (although they put the actual quote a bit earlier in the story). ABC news at least mentioned something about "only" building a wall in their first paragraph, but buried the actual quote even farther down. Sure, for those of us who actively seek out content over first impressions, the facts were there, but you and I both know that most people wont, and most people will repeat that initial false first impression, and that's what will get repeated in conversations both in person and on social media. Which is where we usually catch the outraged response.

But I was mostly talking about the broadcast and cable news. You know, the sources where most people learn about stuff? Also, where the news is often first reported. And those guys universally got it horrible wrong, and were still talking about it based on that horribly wrong first impression late into the evening. It was pretty sad really. The whole time I'm like "but that's not what he actually said", only to watch pundit after pundit on all the cable stations repeat and discuss the false narrative that was spinning around and around.

Which would be funny if it weren't so darn sad.

Edited, Feb 19th 2016 9:32pm by gbaji
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#145 Feb 19 2016 at 11:34 PM Rating: Good
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If Trump was a true Christian, he'd give his riches to the poor. Ditto for all the GOP "Christians".


"Doesn't get his Scripture from anywhere", etc.
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#146 Feb 19 2016 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh. And in case you missed it, that first paragraph (which must have been like a wire thing because almost every single source repeated it verbatim) is completely false. That is not what the Pope said. It's not remotely what the Pope said. Yet, because someone worded it that way, and every other news source repeated it, that was what everyone read first about the story. And that's how you form false impressions about things. How can you do that, and then be surprised when many people react to it strongly? It was deliberately written to be as controversial as possible.
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#147 Feb 19 2016 at 11:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Quote:
Um.. what? Did you watch the news?
I read the news as it broke and the Pope's quote was in all its glory, not just "Pope says walls = bad!!!"
Watch the news. Watch.

"Read" is more relevant here since people on Twitter tend to link to the story they're commenting on. So excuses of "THE MEAN PEOPLE AT CNN TRICKED US!!!" don't really wash to explains all the gloating Vatican photos.

But, heaven knows, Republicans wouldn't be Republicans if they didn't reflexively blame everyone else for their own mistakes. Party of Personal Responsibility MSNBC Tricked Me Into Saying Something Stupid! Smiley: laugh
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#148 Feb 20 2016 at 12:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
If Trump was a true Christian, he'd give his riches to the poor. Ditto for all the GOP "Christians".


But not Dem Christians? There are no wealthy Democrats who are also Christians? Why not hold them to this same standard then?


Quote:
"Doesn't get his Scripture from anywhere", etc.


Given that at no point in the bible is there a stated requirement to give all your riches to the poor in order to be a follower of Christ, I'd say I have a better grasp than you do. Jesus says this to one person one time, and it was because he was a rich young person seeking salvation, so Jesus set up a task that would be difficult for that one particular young man to do (and for "perfection", not merely to be a follower). He was, by no means, suggesting that all rich people had to give up all their possessions. He had a number of wealthy patrons who helped him out, fed and clothed and sheltered him and his disciples, provided a tomb for him later, etc. If there's one common thing we can assume about wealth is that it's what you choose to do with it that matters, not whether you have or don't have it.

The young rich man defined himself by his wealth. Which is why Jesus told him to sell it all and give it to the poor. But there were plenty of wealthy people he encountered (and related parables about), who presumably used their wealth for useful productive things (like hiring people, paying them to work their fields, etc), that he never made any similar challenge towards.

I'll also point out the often forgotten point that Jesus was preaching, not to a group of modern Christians who hold different ideas about salvation and heavenly reward, but to the Jews of his day. And at that time, the prevailing belief was that God punished or rewarded you in life, nor in death. So if a man was wealthy and powerful, it was assumed that god approved of him, and he must be a good and righteous person. If a man was poor, or diseased, he must have done something to deserve punishment from God. So statements from Jesus that appear to us today in our culture to be strong recriminations against wealth itself were more about the need to strongly challenge that base assumption that "wealth==holiness". We don't hold that belief today, so we tend to make the mistake of interpreting it a step further as "wealth==non-holiness". That's not at all what Jesus meant.


And that concludes the scripture lesson of the day.
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#149 Feb 20 2016 at 12:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Quote:
Um.. what? Did you watch the news?
I read the news as it broke and the Pope's quote was in all its glory, not just "Pope says walls = bad!!!"
Watch the news. Watch.

"Read" is more relevant here since people on Twitter tend to link to the story they're commenting on. So excuses of "THE MEAN PEOPLE AT CNN TRICKED US!!!" don't really wash to explains all the gloating Vatican photos.


Sure. And how many of those tweets repeated the false statements made by the media versus the correct quote of the Pope? You're kidding right? Social media is the tool of misinformation.

Quote:
But, heaven knows, Republicans wouldn't be Republicans if they didn't reflexively blame everyone else for their own mistakes. Party of Personal Responsibility MSNBC Tricked Me Into Saying Something Stupid! Smiley: laugh


Again. Did anyone ask Clinton or Sanders what they thought? Why not?
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#150 Feb 20 2016 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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Way to twist Scripture, BaalSmiley: thumbsup

Edited, Feb 19th 2016 11:06pm by Bijou
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#151 Feb 20 2016 at 12:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
Way to twist Scripture, BaalSmiley: thumbsup


As in... bocci?
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