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#327 Oct 27 2015 at 5:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Must be hard to be a whiny little snowflake. I suppose blaming everyone and everything else is easier than personal responsibility and self reflection though so I envy you guys that.


Interesting that you demand personal responsibility of me, but not of the president of the US or the Secretary of State. I think it's abundantly obvious that this entire issue ultimately occurred because the Obama administration desperately needed to contrast Libya as a success against the failure of Bush in Iraq. This lead them to ignore warning signs of increased danger in Libya and to ignore requests for additional security and building improvements. I can't help but think that the whole rhetoric about the embassy in Baghdad and the association between "armored embassy equals failure" had to have had some impact on their thinking. They wanted to avoid even the perception that Libya was anything other than a smashing success.

And when the attack occurred, this same thought process lead them to find any excuse for why it happened other than "the country just isn't as safe as we wanted it to be". So they latched onto the whole video protest thing, and just couldn't let it go. And then when that turned out to be obviously false, instead of just admitting that their own assumptions lead them to a false narrative, they lied about lying about it. "Oh no! We never said it was about a video. Um... That was what the intelligence folks on the ground told us!". Except that too, is a lie. And that's what the emails reveal. Clinton knew that there was no protest on the first day after the attack. She knew it had nothing at all to do with the video. Which reveals that this wasn't about what the intelligence folks told them, but that it came from some other politically oriented direction.

And I think we all know what that was, and why it was. Just no one's willing to actually admit it. So instead we have to spend literally years slowly dragging the facts out of those involved, kicking and screaming all the way. As has been said many times; the cover up is worse than the crime. The worst that happened initially was a failure to respond to a potential threat. Yeah, a mistake, but one that can be excused, and is certainly not criminal, or even that politically harmful. But concealing facts, obstructing investigations into those facts, and out and out lying to the American people? That's a much bigger problem. And whether you want to admit it or not, Hillary Clinton is smack in the middle of it.


Personally, I think she got screwed by Obama. I don't happen to think that it was her idea to lie about the cause of the attack. And frankly, her emails suggest this. I think she was told by Obama to promote the video lie, and she dutifully did as her president asked. Kinda exactly like all those folks who ultimately went to jail during Watergate did. But this puts the political Left in the uncomfortable position of either having to let Clinton take the fall for this or place the blame squarely on Obama. So you're either ******** over your current front runner for president (and potential first woman president), or you tarnish the reputation of the first black president. That's a heck of a pickle for liberals.
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#328 Oct 27 2015 at 6:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Interesting that you demand personal responsibility of me, but not of the president of the US or the Secretary of State. I think it's abundantly obvious...

I'm sure you do, Buttercup.

Have fun in 2016.
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#329 Oct 28 2015 at 12:00 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
I'll take quarter pennies.
WAT?
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#330 Oct 28 2015 at 7:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
She could have babbled incoherently and drooled over herself for 11 hours, and your sources would have said she nailed it and was presidential,
How is Dubya doing these days, anyway?
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#331 Oct 28 2015 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
The Obama administration didn't ignore the requests for additional security.

The Obama administration couldn't pay for the requests for additional security because Congress in their quest to starve the government and drown it in a bathtub didn't allocate enough money. Clinton's objections to those budget cuts are on the record.
#332 Oct 28 2015 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
The Obama administration didn't ignore the requests for additional security.

The Obama administration couldn't pay for the requests for additional security because Congress in their quest to starve the government and drown it in a bathtub didn't allocate enough money. Clinton's objections to those budget cuts are on the record.
You're using facts in a discussion with gbaji?

Daring!
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#333 Oct 28 2015 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
I anticipate another 1,000 word essay from him disputing those facts any minute now.
#334 Oct 28 2015 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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First time I've heard that argument (mind you I pay little attention to these debates with gbaji so its possible others brought it up). Got a source?
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#335 Oct 28 2015 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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I just remember R-UT in 2012 said he voted to cut funding for the diplomatic mission in Benghazi, but I don't particularly care enough to look up the intricate details. Also, I'm pretty sure both sides were reluctant in funding and it wasn't just a Republican thing. But again, you know, don't particularly care enough and in self inflicted pain.

Edited, Oct 28th 2015 3:48pm by lolgaxe
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#336 Oct 28 2015 at 1:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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That all doesn't have much to do with Gbaji's last post. The answer is that intelligence gathering is a sausage making process and the demand for instant answers gets in the way of doing it right. Republicans love their silver bullet solutions where they glom onto a single phrase or factoid and assume now all their troubles are solved and this is the just the latest. The email that Gbaji is now CERTAIN means that Clinton can't win was during an intermediary stage between the initial attacks and the CIA assessments the next day where they did, in fact, attribute the attacks to part of the spreading protests over the video.
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#337 Oct 28 2015 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
Uglysasquatch wrote:
First time I've heard that argument (mind you I pay little attention to these debates with gbaji so its possible others brought it up). Got a source?


Quite a lot on Google for "Clinton objects to State Dept budget cuts" but here's one from 2010.

Quote:
In her letter to the Budget Committee, Clinton notes that more than two-thirds of the proposed increase would go directly to programs in the war-on-terrorism “frontline states” of Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq. The understood message: These are programs, like $1.5 billion a year in civilian development assistance to Pakistan, that you in the Senate have recently mandated.

She also picks up on Gates’s argument about the growing hand-in-glove coordination of the work carried out by the military and civilian diplomats and development experts. “Our [civilian] missions are increasingly integrated with those of our Defense Department counter-parts,” she says. “Cuts to the civilian components can no longer be seen in isolation or having little impact on our national security strategy.”


A more liberal source (Mother Jones) put it more glibly: "It turns out protecting embassies costs money."

Quote:
House Republicans cut the administration’s request for embassy security funding by $128 million in fiscal 2011 and $331 million in fiscal 2012....Last year, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton warned that Republicans’ proposed cuts to her department would be “detrimental to America’s national security” — a charge Republicans rejected.

Ryan, Issa and other House Republicans voted for an amendment in 2009 to cut $1.2 billion from State operations, including funds for 300 more diplomatic security positions. Under Ryan’s budget, non-defense discretionary spending, which includes State Department funding, would be slashed nearly 20 percent in 2014, which would translate to more than $400 million in additional cuts to embassy security.


Edited, Oct 28th 2015 4:02pm by Catwho
#338 Oct 28 2015 at 6:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
The Obama administration didn't ignore the requests for additional security.


Um... Yes, they did.

Quote:
The Obama administration couldn't pay for the requests for additional security because Congress in their quest to starve the government and drown it in a bathtub didn't allocate enough money. Clinton's objections to those budget cuts are on the record.


This is the common narrative, but it's simply not true. Congress may not have passed as large an embassy budget as the White House asked for, but there was sufficient funds to pay for increasing security in Benghazi if the administration had chosen to do so.

Heck. Even Politifact concludes that the claim you're making is "mostly false".

It's kinda hard to blame this on lack of funding, when no one even bothered to ask for it (upgrades in Behghazi) in the first place. If someone at the right level in the State Department had decided that these buildings needed additional security, they would have gotten it. But that first step never happened.


I'll also point out that you are still looking at just one part of the issue. The failure to provide security initially is one part. Which was at worst a mistake by the administration (arguably politically driven, as I pointed out earlier). The real problems occurred after the attack though when the administration embarked on this bizarre effort to blame the attacks, not on organized militants connected to an Al-queda like group as was actually the case, but rather on a protest over a video that somehow managed to escalate into heavily armed guys with rocket launchers and mortars attacking the compound. And then, just to compound this, later choosing to pretend that they didn't do this once it was determined just how incredibly wrong that was.

That's where the whole "lying to the American people" bit comes in. That's the cover up. And it's much worse than the initial mistake that was made.
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#339 Oct 28 2015 at 6:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's Watergate plus Iran/Contra times ten!
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#340 Oct 28 2015 at 6:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
The email that Gbaji is now CERTAIN means that Clinton can't win was during an intermediary stage between the initial attacks and the CIA assessments the next day where they did, in fact, attribute the attacks to part of the spreading protests over the video.


Except that the CIA didn't make that assessment. Even Slate (hardly a conservative friendly source) concludes that it was the White House who did it for political reasons

Quote:
The White House should not rely on super-literal word games. Although this explanation may be a defense against not releasing Rhodes’ email, it dooms the administration when it comes to the question of who inserted the “video” into the Benghazi conversation. The word video doesn’t show up in any of the emails from the CIA or State Department that were used to prepare Rice. Former CIA Director Michael Morell testified that he doesn’t know where the discussion of the video came from. So if you want to be hyperliteral, it’s obvious that Rice and the White House were the ones who emphasized the video, and that’s the end of that. Condemnation all around.


This is why the recent revelations about Clinton's knowledge of the attack in Benghazi are relevant. You are correct that sometime between that first day and 4 days later, the "best information" as reported by Rice to the media changed from what Clinton knew (it wasn't a video, but was a planned attack), to something else. But we already knew (or should have known if we've been reading more sources than just highly partisan ones), that it wasn't the intelligence community that caused that change. Prior to the new info coming out, one could have argued that since there were other protests going on that were related to the video that it might have just been a mistaken assumption on day one that this attack was also related to the same thing. But now, we know that isn't true. The Secretary of State knew that the Benghazi attack wasn't related to the video. So it wasn't just a mistaken assumption that grew over time in the absence of counter information. It was the correct assumption that was "corrected" to an incorrect one.

And that could only have been for political reasons. And frankly, it's just not hard to noodle out what those political reasons were. Obama was in the middle of a re-election campaign, and Libya was his big foreign policy success. He'd just given a speech to the UN a week or so earlier touting it and proclaiming Al-queda to be on the run and mostly dismantled. So yeah. It was a big deal to make this about something other than a planned organized attack in the country he declared to be a success and by the organization he declared to be defeated.


Again though, I don't think Clinton was the one who wanted to change the narrative. I think she was forced to do so by Obama. But now she has to live with that decision. She clearly allowed her subordinate to go on TV and tell the American people something she knew was false. She also had to have known that the changes to the narrative were political and did not come from the intelligence community. She participated in that lie. There's just no other explanation for what happened.

Edited, Oct 28th 2015 5:35pm by gbaji
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#341 Oct 28 2015 at 7:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'll take quarter pennies.
WAT?


Like in Superman III when he writes a program to divert all the fractions of pennies into his account. Each amount is tiny, but with a lot of them they add up to tar filled Kryptonite.
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#342 Oct 28 2015 at 7:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
The email that Gbaji is now CERTAIN means that Clinton can't win was during an intermediary stage between the initial attacks and the CIA assessments the next day where they did, in fact, attribute the attacks to part of the spreading protests over the video.


Except that the CIA didn't make that assessment.

Except for that time that they did?

The CIA linked the Benghazi attack to the protests in Egypt which were, in fact, credited as being inspired by the video.
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#343 Oct 28 2015 at 10:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'll take quarter pennies.
WAT?
Like in Superman III when he writes a program to divert all the fractions of pennies into his account. Each amount is tiny, but with a lot of them they add up to tar filled Kryptonite.
Ah...never watched it.

I am inspired to watch Office Space again, though!
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#344 Oct 29 2015 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
The CIA linked the Benghazi attack to the protests in Egypt which were, in fact, credited as being inspired by the video.
Quit demanding he be personally responsible for the errors of his lack of research!
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#346 Oct 29 2015 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
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Relevant, I think.

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#347 Oct 29 2015 at 8:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
The email that Gbaji is now CERTAIN means that Clinton can't win was during an intermediary stage between the initial attacks and the CIA assessments the next day where they did, in fact, attribute the attacks to part of the spreading protests over the video.


Except that the CIA didn't make that assessment.

Except for that time that they did?

The CIA linked the Benghazi attack to the protests in Egypt which were, in fact, credited as being inspired by the video.


Yeah. Except that none of the intelligence people on the ground have a clue where that idea came from. 3 days later, it did appear in the intelligence briefing. Which should lead most intelligent people to conclude that it was there because the White House and/or State Dept asked for it to be there. You do get that what we're seeing isn't the actual intelligence report to the White House, but an intelligence press briefing. That's wholly political and is not generated by intelligence officers in the field, but press officers in an office in DC. It reflects what the White House wants people to know and is *not* what the CIA actually told the White House. Cause that would be classified, right?
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#348 Oct 29 2015 at 8:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm reminded of the joke by a comedian (Bob Saget IIRC), who said something like "I read that <something absurd>. Yeah. Seriously. I wrote it down, and then I read it". Which is kinda like what happened here. They wrote what they wanted to read, then read it, and proceeded to tell everyone how it was ok to be completely wrong because they read it in the report. Um... Yeah.

What I find really amusing about this is that the same people who had no problem at all with accepting the idea that Cheney was personally going over to CIA and doctoring massive amounts of intelligence reports in order to support the need to invade Iraq can't imagine the possibility of the Obama administration simply having a press officer whose job is to "adjust" the intelligence for public consumption to make those adjustments to a press briefing so that it supported a narrative they wanted. Strange inconsistency that.
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#349 Oct 29 2015 at 10:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Yeah. Except that none of the intelligence people on the ground have a clue where that idea came from.

From the CIA. Those were the CIA generated talking points. Obtained from the CIA.

I know your entire "Stop Clinton!" fantasy relies on her and Obama deciding to write that but they didn't. Sorry.
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#350 Oct 30 2015 at 3:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
3 days later, it did appear in the intelligence briefing.
I'm jsut going to use random dates here but I need some clarity here.


Are you saying that the report for Oct 12th (day of incident), on Oct 15th had new info in it about the video or are you saying the report on Oct 15th, for Oct 15th, 3 days after the incident, had new info in it about the video?


Because one of those would be obviously falsified while the other is kinda how intelligence gathering works.


Edited, Oct 30th 2015 6:24am by Uglysasquatch
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#351 Oct 30 2015 at 7:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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And that speaks to the problem I have with all of this: information gathered in the immediate wake of a crisis is going to be incomplete and sometimes contradictory. That's not conspiracy, that's life.

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