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#27 Aug 07 2015 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe the polls should only be open after 9 PM.
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#28 Aug 07 2015 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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Some poor reporter had to contact the White House about that story, and eventually got referred to the Food Safety Administration (or whatever it's called). Spokesperson said they "didn't recommend" cooking bacon that way.

Primary reporting, everybody!
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#29 Aug 07 2015 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Maybe the polls should only be open after 9 PM.


I think #ClintonAfterDark is already being used for non political purposes.
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#30 Aug 08 2015 at 11:53 AM Rating: Default
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TLW wrote:


I think #ClintonAfterDark is already being used for non political purposes.
That sounds like an adult site.
#31 Aug 08 2015 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I thought it was for a new screensaver.
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#32 Aug 08 2015 at 3:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
TLW wrote:


I think #ClintonAfterDark is already being used for non political purposes.
That sounds like an adult site.


Yay you got the joke.
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#33 Aug 08 2015 at 9:21 PM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
I thought it was for a new screensaver.
Does it come bundled with the old flying toasters one? I loved that one.
#34 Aug 09 2015 at 6:20 AM Rating: Default
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After seeing Rubio struggle on the abortion question, I have a question that I cannot remember if I asked already. Why is "incest" considered as an exception for abortion? Do we really have an incest (not from rape) problem? Or is this just an old saying that never evolved?
#35 Aug 09 2015 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
After seeing Rubio struggle on the abortion question, I have a question that I cannot remember if I asked already. Why is "incest" considered as an exception for abortion? Do we really have an incest (not from rape) problem? Or is this just an old saying that never evolved?


In those contexts, I think incest is almost always equated with rape. Evoking thoughts of a young girl being raped by a family member.

While it's possible to be discussing abortion of an unwanted pregnancy from a consensual incestuous relationship, I don't think it's what they are trying to stir up when they use the terminology in talking points and speeches. I remember back in college there were some "What is rape?" posters, and in the list there was "Incest".
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#36 Aug 09 2015 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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While intrafamilial molestation is rape, we tend to classify the two differently. Most people tend to immediately imagine dark alleys and violent strangers when the word "rape" is used and including "incest" broadens the mental image.
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#37 Aug 09 2015 at 11:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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There's a little bit of eugenics there as well, since a baby born from incest would be more likely to have problems from any recessive genetic conditions in the family. You know, the old "inbred hillbilly" meme.
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#38 Aug 09 2015 at 2:44 PM Rating: Default
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I just think it's safe to drop the "incest" reference if we're assuming the incest is from rape. Furthermore, is incest illegal? Aren't we supposed to accept and promote loving adults?
#39 Aug 09 2015 at 3:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
I just think it's safe to drop the "incest" reference if we're assuming the incest is from rape.

I'll put the memo out.
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#40 Aug 09 2015 at 8:01 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
While intrafamilial molestation is rape, we tend to classify the two differently. Most people tend to immediately imagine dark alleys and violent strangers when the word "rape" is used and including "incest" broadens the mental image.


I don't know what exactly your stance is on it. It's not very clear (you probably don't care much). But I've always thought of incest as more of... category? I guess. It could be consensual.

I guess I can imagine rape beyond "dark alleys and violent strangers" but still keep incest and rape as two separate things. Incestuous rape exists, I'm sure incestuous consensual sex does as well. I just think it's wrong to say "Incest = Rape".
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#41 Aug 09 2015 at 8:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, it's good that no one is saying that, then.
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#42 Aug 09 2015 at 8:48 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Well, it's good that no one is saying that, then.


https://www.rainn.org/

Incest is commonly included and treated as rape and abuse.
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#43 Aug 09 2015 at 9:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Right, and in that context it is commonly understood to be sexual molestation of a child; family members account for the vast majority of sexual abusers of kids, which may well account for the most common form of rape. However, the distinction comes in years later, when a teenager might become pregnant (harking back to the Planned Parenthood discussion) by incestuous acts that are not strictly speaking forced, possibly because she has been groomed for years at that point to accept them as normal.

Truly consensual incest is probably pretty rare, in fact. Outside of the Ozarks, at least.

But, yeah. Two different things, two different words.


Edited, Aug 9th 2015 8:25pm by Samira
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#44 Aug 09 2015 at 9:50 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Right, and in that context it is commonly understood to be sexual molestation of a child; family members account for the vast majority of sexual abusers of kids, which may well account for the most common form of rape. However, the distinction comes in years later, when a teenager might become pregnant (harking back to the Planned Parenthood discussion) by incestuous acts that are not strictly speaking forced, possibly because she has been groomed for years at that point to accept them as normal.


Which is pretty much what I said back in initial response to Alma. Incest in that context was used to stir up the thoughts of a child being raped by a family member. Because the whole "rape and incest" exceptions for abortions is meant to put up a public facade of rarity and extreme cases which would require an abortion. To try and convince the people against it that it has a use, all be it rare, and should not be completely restricted.

But if in the end they really mean just an unwanted pregnancy, one that may have been resulted from a consensual sexual action, it's a bit dishonest to bundle "incest and rape" together. And would be done so just to lie to those who may otherwise be against abortion.

Should be noted that I have very little problem with people getting abortions. For pretty much any reason. While personally I wouldn't push for one for anyone I was involved in, I don't care either way if they do or don't.

Samira wrote:
Truly consensual incest is probably pretty rare, in fact. Outside of the Ozarks, at least.


I guess how close you consider it. Blood related brother/sister/father/mother, probably. Cousins and what not, I'd imagine are a relatively more common. I think there are States that allow first cousin marriages, right. To varying degrees, with or without restrictions.
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#45 Aug 09 2015 at 10:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
It could be consensual.

Thus me saying "interfamilial molestation" and not just "incest" Smiley: schooled
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#46 Aug 10 2015 at 7:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Because the whole "rape and incest" exceptions for abortions is meant to put up a public facade of rarity and extreme cases which would require an abortion.


I don't think it's meant to argue for rarity, but for the relative trauma of carrying and bearing a baby conceived in such a way. And as I said, there's the additional risk of birth defects in the case of incest; possibly not as relevant, but still a factor.

You could make the argument that we're being unnecessarily delicate if we spare women that trauma. After all, conquering armies have always raped the enemy populace, so much so that entire populations' racial characteristics have been permanently changed.

Or you could argue that we have a chance to be better than that, and to say that rape is not an acceptable way to spread your genes around. If you want to father a child, you'll have to convince a woman that it's a good idea, and not just impose one on an unwilling host.

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#47 Aug 10 2015 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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In these cases, neutering and spaying should be looked into.
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#48 Aug 10 2015 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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TirithRR wrote:
Incest in that context was used to stir up the thoughts of a child being raped by a family member.


So it's rape then. I mean, it's also incest, but if we already have an exemption for rape, there's no point in including this as a separate category.

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Because the whole "rape and incest" exceptions for abortions is meant to put up a public facade of rarity and extreme cases which would require an abortion.


Correct. Which is why I think most people assume that the "... and incest" part of that phrase specifically refers to cases of consensual incest. So brother and sister or 1st cousins "play around", girl gets pregnant, parents freak out about the ramifications and problems this may create, and we as society say "yeah, probably best to allow an abortion in that case".

Super rare, I'm assuming, but still a case we should consider. And yes, it also double covers cases of incest where it should be rape, but no one's coming forward and pressing charges (for a host of reasons, some of which have been mentioned already).


Quote:
But if in the end they really mean just an unwanted pregnancy, one that may have been resulted from a consensual sexual action, it's a bit dishonest to bundle "incest and rape" together. And would be done so just to lie to those who may otherwise be against abortion.


Yeah. I agree. And there's an aspect to this that may not play well with modern sensibilities going back to a time when societies did abort (or just kill after birth) children who were deformed or the result of such unions as a matter of course. Pretty much entirely for the "strengthen the gene pool" reason.


Oh. As to the debate itself? No clue what the polls are saying, but I don't think Trump did himself many favors there. Every answer he gave was negative (including his final "why do you think you should be president" answer). All he did was show up with a list of "bad things" to rail about, while not actually presenting any solutions at all (aside from some very broad "they broke it and I'll fix it!" sort of language). Maybe plays well for awhile but at some point even the most rhetoric driven primary voters will realize that he doesn't actually have anything resembling a platform.

Also agree that Rubio did very well. I kinda have to take back my earlier critique. He looks much more mature and serious this time around (amazing what just a few years can do). Also had by far the best answers, and actually looked like he knew what he was talking about and was comfortable doing so on every issue that came his way. So well informed and well prepared. Which is a good thing.

I think both Bush and Walker both went into this basically with a "don't do anything stupid to hurt yourself" approach. Probably smart (let Trump sink himself and they become the front runners by default), since they could really only lose. Neither of them stood out (again, certainly intentional). So no gain (but probably no significant loss) for either of them.

Cruz just looks like he's got something rammed up his rear all the way to his head. I just cringe whenever I see him talking. One of my friends suggested that maybe he was really a left over 50s era Disney Anamatronic that got out somehow. He just looks wrong. Bugs me. Maybe it's the lack of neck? Not sure.
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#49 Aug 10 2015 at 6:01 PM Rating: Default
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Samria wrote:
don't think it's meant to argue for rarity, but for the relative trauma of carrying and bearing a baby conceived in such a way.
I'm sure that there are other ways of "relative trauma of carrying and bearing a baby conceived in such a way". If there is no rape involved, then the couple is fully aware of their actions. I don't see how this trauma should be treated any differently.

Samira wrote:
And as I said, there's the additional risk of birth defects in the case of incest; possibly not as relevant, but still a factor.
If the concern is birth defects, then why not say birth defects? As above, I'm sure that there are more children born with defects outside of incest, so why are these children treated differently?

It just doesn't make any sense to single out incest. That is, unless you're an incestaphobe.

#50 Aug 10 2015 at 6:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Don't ask me, I'm firmly in the "it's a decision between a woman and her doctor" camp. Just speculating as to what others might be thinking.

If I were in the anti-abortion camp, I would be in it all the way. No exceptions. You don't murder someone because they're defective, or because you don't like their father. So if it's murder, it's always murder.
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#51 Aug 10 2015 at 6:43 PM Rating: Default
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Samira wrote:
Don't ask me, I'm firmly in the "it's a decision between a woman and her doctor" camp. Just speculating as to what others might be thinking.

If I were in the anti-abortion camp, I would be in it all the way. No exceptions. You don't murder someone because they're defective, or because you don't like their father. So if it's murder, it's always murder.


Funny you bring that up, because I remember a discussion we had here where some pro-choice posters were against aborting babies based off gender. In any case, I don't think it has to be all or nothing in any scenario, especially when the life of the mother is in danger. In that case, someone is going to die regardless.
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