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#27 Jul 30 2015 at 6:13 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Samira wrote:
It also shares your wi-fi password with anyone connecting from your house. I'm not sure how they calculate what's your house, and what's just outside your house, or next door, or whatever. It apparently also shares that information, encrypted, with anyone you "share" with on Facebook, Skype or Outlook.

Also, allegedly, if you tell a friend your wi-fi password because, say, they're at your house to play a co-op game on their laptop, by default your password is then shared with THEIR friends when they type it in.

I get that privacy is a quaint conceit at this point; but do we really have to be so blatant about it?


The bigger issue is how they do it. They basically use their own servers as a warehouse of encrypted credentials which associate the credentials to the wifi network. So when another Win10 system attempts to connect to a wifi network, it connects to the MS warehouse and checks to see if there's an associated credential for it, then checks to see if it's ok to share it. So basically, you've given up security of your home network to a remote server managed by someone else. You can opt out all you want, but at the end of the day if MS wants to opt you in (or hand those credentials out to anyone they want), you have no actual say in it.

I haven't been able to find any detailed information, but it's unclear if opting out actually prevents your credential from being stored on their server. It may be that it just changes the settings regarding that credential on said server. So even if you turn it off, it's still dropping a credential for your network in their warehouse, just not handing it out to anyone else (again, unless they decide to do so). I suppose technically they could do this with the credentials already stored on your system today, but by hiding it in a "service", it maybe makes it a bit less obviously problematic (and potentially illegal). Hard to say.


The other issue is with the upgrade process itself. So if someone with Win7/8 had previously visited your home, and you typed your wifi password in for them to access you network (assuming that it would remain stored only on that device), and that person now upgrades to Win10, it's also unclear if that process alone will result in your network credential being uploaded to their service (along with whatever opt-in/out information that user chooses). Again, the big issue is that they've basically removed the security from your home network and placed it on their server.

I'd recommend at the very least that anyone who has ever shared their home wifi password with anyone (even if you typed it yourself into their network connection tool), that you change your password now. Because even if you don't upgrade to Win10, if that other person does, your home network security is basically up in the air.


Security... pfft.. this is the new sharing economy in which security is deemed a passing fad. And besides, terrorists like their computers secure and encrypted. You are not a terrorist, are you?
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#28 Jul 30 2015 at 7:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, I dunno if opting out means "don't take it" or "don't share it". Either way, if I were a bright young hacker type I'd be eying those servers with gleeful ill intent.
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#29 Jul 30 2015 at 7:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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And that's the Daily Double.

Edited, Jul 30th 2015 6:38pm by Samira
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#30 Jul 30 2015 at 7:47 PM Rating: Decent
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angrymnk wrote:
Security... pfft.. this is the new sharing economy in which security is deemed a passing fad. And besides, terrorists like their computers secure and encrypted. You are not a terrorist, are you?


I have a co-worker who believes that privacy in the modern world is just a quaint idea that simply doesn't exist anymore. Any privacy we think we have is just illusion (or delusion) and so there's really no point in bothering to prevent anyone from just having any information about you that they want. Let's just say we have some... interesting... conversations.
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#31 Jul 30 2015 at 9:32 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
Security... pfft.. this is the new sharing economy in which security is deemed a passing fad. And besides, terrorists like their computers secure and encrypted. You are not a terrorist, are you?


I have a co-worker who believes that privacy in the modern world is just a quaint idea that simply doesn't exist anymore. Any privacy we think we have is just illusion (or delusion) and so there's really no point in bothering to prevent anyone from just having any information about you that they want. Let's just say we have some... interesting... conversations.


I bet. Does he mind disclosing his account information to you, or medical records to <various interested parties>?

Edited, Jul 30th 2015 11:34pm by angrymnk
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#32 Jul 31 2015 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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I had this conversation today at work about Windows 10. Part of the problem is that people have the the Cartman-CIA mentality. You're simply not that important. Any skilled hacker is going for the database, not your personal pc. That's not to ignore script kiddies, but the level of paranoia is often overblown.
#33 Jul 31 2015 at 3:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
True but there's no DX12 games out yet and the free upgrade option is good for a year so no rush on my part.
You'll miss out on the "Early Adopter" achievement when Microsoft inevitably rolls out Windows Achievement points.
#34 Jul 31 2015 at 3:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's why I don't want Microsoft scooping up my passwords and storing them. I don't think they're planning anything nefarious; I just don't trust the guys who came out with Internet Explorer to know **** all about keeping my data safe.
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#35 Jul 31 2015 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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angrymnk wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I have a co-worker who believes that privacy in the modern world is just a quaint idea that simply doesn't exist anymore. Any privacy we think we have is just illusion (or delusion) and so there's really no point in bothering to prevent anyone from just having any information about you that they want. Let's just say we have some... interesting... conversations.


I bet. Does he mind disclosing his account information to you, or medical records to <various interested parties>?


Not like bank account stuff, but in terms of medical stuff, he's one of those people who is signed into one of those dna database services (23 and me I think?), and basically shares his info openly (cause hey, maybe his dna might be useful to someone or something, right? Science!). He also tracks his genealogy online and shares that info openly as well (presumably so he can connect with anyone else possibly related to him who might also be searching). He's totally cavalier with any and all social media stuff. Basically approaches life as an open book. Which I find admirable, sorta.

Of course, he'll probably be first against the wall when the revolution comes, but maybe not. Dunno.

Almalieque wrote:
I had this conversation today at work about Windows 10. Part of the problem is that people have the the Cartman-CIA mentality. You're simply not that important. Any skilled hacker is going for the database, not your personal pc. That's not to ignore script kiddies, but the level of paranoia is often overblown.


Yeah. The issue is precisely that though. Right now, your security is on your home PC and your home router. Which may or may not be worth someone spending any time hacking. With Win10, your security is on a MS server. Which makes that server a ridiculously prime target for hacking. Today, if I'm a nefarious guy who wants to be able to hijack networks around me, I have to individually hack any of the networks I want/need to utilize. Tomorrow? I obtain some exploit that allows me to bypass MS security, and I can spoof their server into identifying my system as a legitimate user of every wifi network in the world in which even a single Win10 system has ever accessed. I no longer need to hack your network, or the one next door, or the one next to that. I've hacked them all and can use any of them as I wish.

It's a terrible terrible idea.
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#36 Jul 31 2015 at 8:04 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I have a co-worker who believes that privacy in the modern world is just a quaint idea that simply doesn't exist anymore. Any privacy we think we have is just illusion (or delusion) and so there's really no point in bothering to prevent anyone from just having any information about you that they want. Let's just say we have some... interesting... conversations.


I bet. Does he mind disclosing his account information to you, or medical records to <various interested parties>?


Not like bank account stuff, but in terms of medical stuff, he's one of those people who is signed into one of those dna database services (23 and me I think?), and basically shares his info openly (cause hey, maybe his dna might be useful to someone or something, right? Science!). He also tracks his genealogy online and shares that info openly as well (presumably so he can connect with anyone else possibly related to him who might also be searching). He's totally cavalier with any and all social media stuff. Basically approaches life as an open book. Which I find admirable, sorta.

Of course, he'll probably be first against the wall when the revolution comes, but maybe not. Dunno.

Almalieque wrote:
I had this conversation today at work about Windows 10. Part of the problem is that people have the the Cartman-CIA mentality. You're simply not that important. Any skilled hacker is going for the database, not your personal pc. That's not to ignore script kiddies, but the level of paranoia is often overblown.


Yeah. The issue is precisely that though. Right now, your security is on your home PC and your home router. Which may or may not be worth someone spending any time hacking. With Win10, your security is on a MS server. Which makes that server a ridiculously prime target for hacking. Today, if I'm a nefarious guy who wants to be able to hijack networks around me, I have to individually hack any of the networks I want/need to utilize. Tomorrow? I obtain some exploit that allows me to bypass MS security, and I can spoof their server into identifying my system as a legitimate user of every wifi network in the world in which even a single Win10 system has ever accessed. I no longer need to hack your network, or the one next door, or the one next to that. I've hacked them all and can use any of them as I wish.

It's a terrible terrible idea.


I suppose it is an easy way to track faulty sharing genes in the population. I do not really care; life will correct that sunny disposition soon enough. There is a reason people like to keep certain level of secrecy ( and even your sharing friend did not seem too eager to share financial info so there is yet some hope for him ).
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#37 Jul 31 2015 at 8:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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So last night I upgraded my PSU (and my video card, hence the new PSU) and it wiped my overclock settings in the BIOS. Who knew? Well, I'm sure someone knew but that someone wasn't me and my previous settings were largely me fiddling around with trial and error. Also, I tried to be lazy and use the same modular wires powering my drives by just unplugging it from the old PSU and into the new one and was rewarded with a computer that did nothing when you'd hit the power. I'm still not sure exactly why that was an issue (same connections on the PSU end) but it was. But now I have like ten fans in my box (two on the CPU cooler, four case fans, three on the GPU and one in the PSU) and it's starting to sound like a wind farm. So I'm thinking I might get one of those closed loop coolers (Corsair H75, I'm thinking) and knock a few of these fans out of here. And I did get my processor back overclocked and seemingly stable based on Prime95 running for a while. And the new video card up and running though I haven't actually played anything yet with getting everything else back to normal.

Point being, I'm really glad I wasn't hassling with all this on top of a new OS when I was troubleshooting.
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#38 Aug 01 2015 at 4:33 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Of course, he'll probably be first against the wall when the revolution comes, but maybe not. Dunno.
Heh. No. That'd be you.Smiley: tongue

Jophiel wrote:
But now I have like ten fans in my box (two on the CPU cooler, four case fans, three on the GPU and one in the PSU) .
Do you post from a steel foundry?Smiley: laugh
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#39 Aug 01 2015 at 5:18 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
So last night I upgraded my PSU (and my video card, hence the new PSU) and it wiped my overclock settings in the BIOS. Who knew?


Replace your CMOS battery, it's dead.
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#40 Aug 01 2015 at 5:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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"Wipe" was the wrong word. It remembered the settings, but since the fans didn't start up the first attempt or two (same issue as the drives) it declared my overclock settings a failure and demanded that I restore to defaults before booting.

In fact, some people report this as a problem that wouldn't go away and one fix was to pull the battery. In my case, it behaved when I set then to default and then set new parameters.
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#41 Aug 01 2015 at 6:32 PM Rating: Decent
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So... I was checking my dreamspark account for good and valid reasons and I saw the Windows 10 image that had the following addition available:

'Windows 10 IoT core for raspberry PI2'

It is so odd now I just have to try installing it on my pi.
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#42 Aug 02 2015 at 12:48 AM Rating: Good
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#43 Aug 02 2015 at 2:30 AM Rating: Good
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Yes, it would.
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#44 Aug 03 2015 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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Well, I installed it and my laptop hasn't gained sentience and try to kill itself, so it works better than I thought it would. Spent an annoying amount of time (Read: any time) on futzing through settings. Microsoft has a weird hardon with setting the UAC on. The start menu is taking a little to get used to, and now everything is called an app which is annoying. Beyond that not really noticing a world of difference that hasn't already been said.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2015 9:35am by lolgaxe
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#45 Aug 03 2015 at 5:50 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:

Yeah. The issue is precisely that though. Right now, your security is on your home PC and your home router. Which may or may not be worth someone spending any time hacking. With Win10, your security is on a MS server. Which makes that server a ridiculously prime target for hacking. Today, if I'm a nefarious guy who wants to be able to hijack networks around me, I have to individually hack any of the networks I want/need to utilize. Tomorrow? I obtain some exploit that allows me to bypass MS security, and I can spoof their server into identifying my system as a legitimate user of every wifi network in the world in which even a single Win10 system has ever accessed. I no longer need to hack your network, or the one next door, or the one next to that. I've hacked them all and can use any of them as I wish.

It's a terrible terrible idea.


I'm still not that concerned. I'm not jumping on any bandwagon, but it's like the most recent data breach. Millions of people were compromised. I'm more than likely part of that breach. However, I'm not concerned because I'm low on the totem poll. I'm sure that there are some people more important and/or with a "dirty" past that will be exploited before me.
#46 Aug 04 2015 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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So a multinational corporation based in the US launches a free upgrade to multiple versions of an OS used by nearly every PC in the world. The free upgrade is advertised on the taskbar of all currently operating PCs without the users permission (WTF at them having access to my taskbar). This free OS gathers all communications and network access passwords typed into it and sends them to a remote server.

Chat: they know who you are and where you live.
Network access: Permanent remote access to any network in range, including wireless cellphone tethers, forever.

Hell no. Time to grow a neck beard.
#47 Aug 04 2015 at 4:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yodabunny wrote:
**** no. Time to grow a neck beard.


Does this mean you're switching to Linux?
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#48 Aug 04 2015 at 9:03 PM Rating: Good
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I've enjoyed it thus far... no issues. Everything worked just as it did before. It's not as drastic of a change from Win 8.1 to 10 though. Those moving from 7 may have a bit more of a learning curve.
#49 Aug 05 2015 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
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Yodabunny wrote:
Chat: they know who you are and where you live.
They knew that well before Win10.
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#50 Aug 05 2015 at 10:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Samira wrote:
Does this mean you're switching to Linux?


I've already run various distros though I kind of gave up on it in recent years as I'm too busy to mess around with it. Linux is great, its software selection sucks (or did 5 years ago at least.) I'll probably stick to Win 7/8 since I need it for various games and such. When it gets to the point where I have to upgrade due to lack of support I'll have to see how things are. I don't see it getting better though, the goal seems to be to get everything remote and as bandwidth opens up more and more "services" are streaming rather than living on your own hardware. I'm cool with that for things like game data, media, not so much for personal documents and information, and particularly security. I'm not particularly paranoid about people hacking my network. I don't exactly maintain state secrets here but I see absolutely no good reason for Microsoft to have my wifi creds, encrypted or not, none at all, and the fact that they think it's a good idea makes me hesitant to use their software.

They're getting a little too...in my home and they're using sleazy tactics to do it which makes me question their motives. If any other software did this we'd call it malware.

That being said. I have not validated that this is even happening and I don't see a cite (maybe I missed it?) so I might be just knee jerking here.
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Yodabunny wrote:
[I've already run various distros though I kind of gave up on it in recent years as I'm too busy to mess around with it.

Run everything in SteamOS.

Better yet, run everything in WebOS, thus guaranteeing that no one will ever bother hacking/stealing from you ever.
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