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Yeah but it would be an argument for Iraqi's who were honoring their shitty parents for killing kaffir.
Just as Planned.
Timelordwho wrote:
When I fly the U.S. Flag, you better believe I'm showing my commitment to oligarchic hegemony and suppression of non-citizen democracies around the globe.
The difference there being that I can point to thousands of positive things to occur under the US flag. What occurred under the Confederate banner except for the fight to preserve slavery? What occurred under the Nazi banner except for the battle to conquer Europe and exterminate the Jewish* race?
*Plus other groups, of course. Maybe you're against killing Jews but are exceptionally proud of their efforts to eradicate Gypsies
Edited, Jul 1st 2015 10:59am by Jophiel
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Timelordwho wrote:
Yeah but it would be an argument for Iraqi's who were honoring their shitty parents for killing kaffir.
Edited, Jul 1st 2015 6:33pm by Almalieque
Timelordwho wrote:
When I fly the U.S. Flag, you better believe I'm showing my commitment to oligarchic hegemony and suppression of non-citizen democracies around the globe.
Well, if you think about it, the oligarchy is itself a suppression of your home-grown citizen democracy, so you can shorten that to 'oligarchic hegemony and the suppression of democracy around the globe".
Timelordwho wrote:
I'm not quite sure that scheming is an emotion.
I flew a Mets flag in Afghanistan, and got yelled at for trying to get it certified.
Edit: Looks like them Duke boys are in a world of trouble. This one is a bit much.
Edited, Jul 1st 2015 12:53pm by lolgaxe
Edit: Looks like them Duke boys are in a world of trouble. This one is a bit much.
Edited, Jul 1st 2015 12:53pm by lolgaxe
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
Jophiel wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
When I fly the U.S. Flag, you better believe I'm showing my commitment to oligarchic hegemony and suppression of non-citizen democracies around the globe.
The difference there being that I can point to thousands of positive things to occur under the US flag. What occurred under the Confederate banner except for the fight to preserve slavery? What occurred under the Nazi banner except for the battle to conquer Europe and exterminate the Jewish race?
The confederacy never actually became a state, so it's a somewhat unfair question. If the U.S. had lost the independence war you could say that they were a bunch of guys who shot up cities so they wouldn't have to pay their taxes.
The **** analogue is pretty fair, what they did successfully do was reconstruct and modernize the German state, including welfare, infrastructure development, crime reduction, and technological investment and restructuring of the economy. The battle to create a European superstate and ethnic and social purges came somewhat later.
Just as Planned.
Timelordwho wrote:
The battle to create a European superstate and ethnic and social purges came somewhat later.
remorajunbao wrote:
One day I'm going to fly to Canada and open the curtains in your office.
Timelordwho wrote:
The confederacy never actually became a state, so it's a somewhat unfair question.
It's a perfectly fair question. If you're flying it, you should be able to explain exactly what about that banner you appreciate and what it stands for. If the only thing it has ever flown for was the fight to preserve slavery then accept that that's the answer.
Quote:
If the U.S. had lost the independence war you could say that they were a bunch of guys who shot up cities so they wouldn't have to pay their taxes.
If the colonists had lost the war, you probably wouldn't see a bunch of US flags flying around.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Friar Bijou wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
The battle to create a European superstate and ethnic and social purges came somewhat later.
That and the fact that much of the economic improvements came in the form of ramped up military production to create that superstate and property seizures of Jewish citizens. Hitler didn't improve the economy by revamping the German tariff system or something.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Almalieque wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Yeah but it would be an argument for Iraqi's who were honoring their shitty parents for killing kaffir.
Edited, Jul 1st 2015 6:33pm by Almalieque
Uh no, a scattered few traveling to fight in a foreign war is very different than an internal conflict.
There aren't that many people leaving the U.S. to fight for ISIS, about 0.0000005625% of the population.
It would be more like someone honoring their great great grandfather who traveled to fight in the Boshin War (which was right after the U.S. Civil War, and like the current conflict in Syraq, was an a civil war in which western powers had skin in the game.)
Just as Planned.
This seems akin to the "The confederates gave slaves food and shelter!" argument. You don't get kudos for assisting in a disaster that you created.
Jophiel wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
The battle to create a European superstate and ethnic and social purges came somewhat later.
That and the fact that much of the economic improvements came in the form of ramped up military production to create that superstate and property seizures of Jewish citizens. Hitler didn't improve the economy by revamping the German tariff system or something.
Actually, that's false, it was the infrastructure projects and banking reform. The military buildup didn't actually help as it rose resource prices for civilian enterprise, which cancelled out much of the capital flow benefits.
Just as Planned.
Almalieque wrote:
This seems akin to the "The confederates gave slaves food and shelter!" argument. You don't get kudos for assisting in a disaster that you created.
What is this referring to?
Just as Planned.
TLW wrote:
Uh no, a scattered few traveling to fight in a foreign war is very different than an internal conflict.
There aren't that many people leaving the U.S. to fight for ISIS, about 0.0000005625% of the population.
It would be more like someone honoring their great great grandfather who traveled to fight in the Boshin War (which was right after the U.S. Civil War, and like the current conflict in Syraq, was an a civil war in which western powers had skin in the game.)
There aren't that many people leaving the U.S. to fight for ISIS, about 0.0000005625% of the population.
It would be more like someone honoring their great great grandfather who traveled to fight in the Boshin War (which was right after the U.S. Civil War, and like the current conflict in Syraq, was an a civil war in which western powers had skin in the game.)
You're deviating from the argument, which is honoring YOUR ancestors who fought bravely in a war. If you're differentiating the politics behind the war from honoring your family, then the population involved is irrelevant. It wouldn't be flown on a state capitol, but you have not provided a reason why it wouldn't be the same as a Joe wearing and supporting the ISIS flag because his relative stood up and fought bravely against the United States.
Timelordwho wrote:
Actually, that's false, it was the infrastructure projects and banking reform. The military buildup didn't actually help as it rose resource prices for civilian enterprise, which cancelled out much of the capital flow benefits.
While I disagree with this and feel you're overstating things, I'm not especially interested in arguing Nazi economic policy to explain why flying the Confederate flag is pretty fucked up.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Ok great, you can go fly the confederate flag in Yemen I guess, I don't really see how that's relevant to the discussion but be my guest.
Just as Planned.
I'm in favor of all Confederate flag flying being restricted to Yemen 
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Jophiel wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Actually, that's false, it was the infrastructure projects and banking reform. The military buildup didn't actually help as it rose resource prices for civilian enterprise, which cancelled out much of the capital flow benefits.
While I disagree with this and feel you're overstating things, I'm not especially interested in arguing Nazi economic policy to explain why flying the Confederate flag is pretty fucked up.
I'm not arguing that we should be flying the confederate flag, on the statehouse of otherwise.
Just as Planned.
I'm okay with people wanting to fly the flag, provided it's private property and not government, and they don't cry about the consequences and implications.
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
Never said that you were. But you tried to compare it to the US flag. I explained what that's a poor comparison. The Nazi flag is a side jaunt and, while we could spend all manner of time debating it, it doesn't really affect the fact that the Confederate flag never flew for anything except as the battle standard of a nation fighting to preserve slavery. Hell, even if you found some sort of non-slavery related accomplishment of the CSA, you'd be better honoring that with the actual flag of the CSA than a battle standard.
I'll admit that I mentioned it but I'm not especially interested in pursuing it because it's ultimately irrelevant to what the Confederate flag stands for.
Edited, Jul 1st 2015 12:34pm by Jophiel
I'll admit that I mentioned it but I'm not especially interested in pursuing it because it's ultimately irrelevant to what the Confederate flag stands for.
Edited, Jul 1st 2015 12:34pm by Jophiel
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
lolgaxe wrote:
I'm okay with people wanting to fly the flag, provided it's private property and not government, and they don't cry about the consequences and implications.
I was thinking the same thing, feel free to fly any flag you want but be prepared to answer to your neighbors.
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
Debalic wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I'm okay with people wanting to fly the flag, provided it's private property and not government, and they don't cry about the consequences and implications.
I was thinking the same thing, feel free to fly any flag you want but be prepared to answer to your neighbors.
^
^
^
This
remorajunbao wrote:
One day I'm going to fly to Canada and open the curtains in your office.
I don't like anyone flying the flag, but I wouldn't push for legislation to prevent anyone from doing it. At a minimum, it sends up a "red flag" when I see you.
icwutudidthere
Dandruffshampoo wrote:
Curses, beaten by Professor stupidopo-opo.
Annabella, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Stupidmonkey is more organized than a bag of raccoons.
Ok. Finally have some time to post.
No, we're not. There were three different flags of the Confederacy, none of which are the flag in question.
Except that it wasn't. Which is the point so many people seem to fail to grasp. So because a bunch of ignorant people oppose this flag because they incorrectly think it's the flag of the Confederacy, that makes it so, and legitimizes their demand that it be removed? Um... That makes zero sense.
From something other than this flag. You're pointing at something on the left and condemning something on the right because of what you see there.
The constitution of the Confederacy is irrelevant to the question of the meaning of this particular flag though. I've posted at length about what the flag means to those who fly it, but the answer seems to be that because people who don't fly it think it means something else, then that's what it means, and so it should be banned. Again, that makes no sense at all. This is about people spending way too much time and effort looking around for things to be offended about. Gee. Having a hard time finding actual examples of blatant racial discrimination, so what to do? I know! Let's find something that some people might think might lead people to being racist and attack that! Brilliant. We don't need to actually do something like, I don't know, determine if this is true or anything. We'll just get enough dumb people to be outraged about it, and it wont matter.
Do you guys really like living in a world where mob rule is the rule? Because that's what you're doing here.
Friar Bijou wrote:
Were not talking about why the average soldier fought for the Confederacy. Were discussing the symbol of the Confederacy.
No, we're not. There were three different flags of the Confederacy, none of which are the flag in question.
Quote:
The "Stars and Bars" in any and all configurations. That was a symbol of the Confederacy whose whole existence is absolutely founded on the principle of keeping slavery as a going concern.
Except that it wasn't. Which is the point so many people seem to fail to grasp. So because a bunch of ignorant people oppose this flag because they incorrectly think it's the flag of the Confederacy, that makes it so, and legitimizes their demand that it be removed? Um... That makes zero sense.
Quote:
Regardless of whatever meaning you wish to append to it the slavery thing is not removable. The "some people are not fully human" is not removable. The "I am superior and you are inferior based purely on skin color" is not removable.
From something other than this flag. You're pointing at something on the left and condemning something on the right because of what you see there.
Quote:
Before you respond (gbaji) READ THE ENTIRE CONSTITUTION of the Confederacy and then get back to me.
The constitution of the Confederacy is irrelevant to the question of the meaning of this particular flag though. I've posted at length about what the flag means to those who fly it, but the answer seems to be that because people who don't fly it think it means something else, then that's what it means, and so it should be banned. Again, that makes no sense at all. This is about people spending way too much time and effort looking around for things to be offended about. Gee. Having a hard time finding actual examples of blatant racial discrimination, so what to do? I know! Let's find something that some people might think might lead people to being racist and attack that! Brilliant. We don't need to actually do something like, I don't know, determine if this is true or anything. We'll just get enough dumb people to be outraged about it, and it wont matter.
Do you guys really like living in a world where mob rule is the rule? Because that's what you're doing here.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
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