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#4102 Aug 29 2017 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Even if it's a "shitty excuse" we shouldn't pretend like it's an uncommon problem.

Common problems don't make for good statues Smiley: smile
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#4103 Aug 29 2017 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know, I am very fond of the statues in Los Angeles, dedicated to the bad traffic. We call them freeways.
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#4104 Aug 29 2017 at 5:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Even if it's a "shitty excuse" we shouldn't pretend like it's an uncommon problem.

Common problems don't make for good statues Smiley: smile
Yeah, and I don't get that part either. I'm all for these kinds of things in museums and what not, don't really get why the "statue in a town square" part happened. Something, something, people seem to be good at creating their own problems... Smiley: rolleyes
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#4105 Aug 30 2017 at 7:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
I'm all for these kinds of things in museums and what not,
The Natural Museum of Scum and Villainy.
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#4106 Aug 30 2017 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gabji wrote:
So just by declaring a symbol you don't like to be "a symbol of racism", you can safely justify eradicating it.
Well, no.

But when someone displays a symbol advocating racism we can safely call them racist.


Symbols don't advocate anything at all. People do. Some people may interpret a symbol a given way, but that's 100% subjective. If enough people decide that a symbol means X, then to them, it means X. Period.

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Sorry that hurts your feelings, buddy. Smiley: frown


When did I say it did? It's not about feelings. It's about a rational interpretation of the events in question. If there was zero connotation or historical use (or opposition to) Lee's battle flag with the institution of slavery, then no one would bat any eye at it being waved in support of a statue to Lee. It's only because you have decided that that flag means "support for slavery/ violation of civil rights" that it has that meaning. It's 100% inside your own head (ok, the collective heads of those who view it that way).

There are a ton of people living in the South who do not see that flag the way you do. There are a very small number of white nationalists who do, and a much much larger number of anti-white-nationalists who do. But that's the issue here. You're basically adopting the meaning based on what people you presumably disagree with want. Why not just ignore them, tell them that's not what the flag stands for, and make fun of them for being so dumb as to think that way.

For someone who claims to oppose white nationalism, you sure seem happy to follow their lead on this one.

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And before you go blah-blah-blah: The Virginia Battle Flag was carried by soldiers on behalf of a "nation" that advocated for insisted that slavery was ideal (indeed, the foundation of their "nation") and that "negroes" were worth less than white people. That's called racism.


That is a gross simplification of the issue, and not at all what that flag stood for then, nor what it stands for to most people in the South. I get that you need to believe this is true so as to support a previously chosen narrative, but it's just not true.

By that same argument, any flag of the US older than 1865 is also a symbol of slavery and racism, since the US during that time period had legal slavery and special rules for treating its black citizens as "less than white people" (literally, in terms of census counts). You're choosing to obsessively focus on just one aspect of an entire period of history.

You would have a legitimate point if we were talking about the actual Confederate Flag, since we could readily argue that defense of the institution of slavery was a core tenant of that nation. However, extending that connotation to every flag used for any purpose by anyone who served or lived under the Confederacy, no matter their own personal actions, honor, or service, is ridiculous.

The irony here is that the Battle Flag was latched onto by many Southerners as a sign of pride specifically because it did *not* have any connection to slavery. It was about fighting spirit. Which was very important to those living in the South after the civil war. They'd just lost a horrific war. One in which many of those who fought and died did not have any great stake in (especially in terms of slavery itself), but who fought anyway because they felt that's what they should do. I get that in this age of conscientious objectors we assume that folks can and should chose not to fight for a nation if they don't agree with what they are fighting over, but in those days, that's now how people thought. How about we don't condemn them for this?

How about we also honor the fact that they did choose to fight. They did serve their country. Even if we disagree with what that country stood for, we can at least honor those who did the fighting. The absurd thing, is that we have somehow developed greater hatred for those who fought in the civil war over a century ago, while at the same time finding it in our hears to honor those who fought against us in Germany (in two world wars), in Japan, in Vietnam, etc. We don't dishonor or hate those who fought for the ****'s in WW2, because we understands that the overwhelming majority of them were not themselves adherents to that ideology. They were serving their country.

Why can't we find it in our hearts today to extend the same courtesy to those who fought in the Civil War? They were defeated over a century ago. That flag represents, not the ideology of the Confederacy, but the honor of those who fight for their country, regardless of what that country is. That's why it was selected to represent southern pride and honor. But that's not good enough for some people. You have to take that away from them as well.

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I'm all for people flying that flag; it let's me know who the a-holes are without having to guess.


Wow. Um... You get that there are a lot of black folks who proudly fly that flag, right? I suppose they're all just self hating or something? Way to inject your own mental narrative there.

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I'm with Samira in that if there is a monument to a Southern General for anything other than their Civil War stuff then they should stay.


Tell that to the angry mob. You get, thought, that the very same "anyone defending this symbol is a racist" methodology will be applied right to you though, right? You wont do this because you'll be called a racist too.

The problem is the methodology at play here.

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There are idiots on the left, after all, just like on the right.


Sure. But right now, it's the idiots on the left who are the most problematic. I'm not seeing anyone on the right using violent protest to block anyone's free speech. I'm not seeing anyone on the right going around tearing down things they don't like and destroying public property that offends them.

There's kinda not an equivalence here IMO.
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#4107 Aug 30 2017 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
You get that there are a lot of black folks who proudly fly that flag, right?
Go ahead and link a few hundred for me then.

I was going to post a bunch of stuff about symbolism and stuff but decided to forgo it as we've all already determined that you know jack shit about history and even less about how humans deal with social issues.

So, yeah, re: What does the "Virginia Battle Flag" stand for? You're wrong.
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Jophiel wrote:
Last week, I saw a guy with an eyepatch and a gold monocle and pointed him out to Flea as one of the most awesome things I've seen, ever. If I had an eyepatch and a gold monocle, I'd always dress up as Mr. Peanut but with a hook hand and a parrot.
#4108 Aug 30 2017 at 7:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
Let's imagine there was exactly zero percent of the protesters who were white nationalists, racists, whatever. What flag would people have been waving? it's your own assumptions about the association and meaning of that flag that is leading you here. OMG! That's.. ridiculous.

Wait, you think the people waving the swastika and those waving the Confederate flag were two completely disparate groups of people?


No. I'm saying that just because one group of people uses several different symbols when marching that every one of those symbols has the exact same meaning to every one of those people, much less that one particular symbol present at said march must then take on the identical meaning of other symbols at the same march for everyone else in the world.

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Really?


No. You totally misunderstood me. Shocking.

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That's fucking adorable.


It's also not remotely what I was saying. Nice job taking a strawman and running as far as you can with it. Let me counter this:

Are you saying that if one person shows up at a "save the whales" rally, complete with whatever flags or symbols are used by those folks, sporting a **** flag, that this now means all of those other symbols now become symbols of *****? Ok. So not one person, right? How many? At what point does a person carrying symbol A, mean that symbol B, carried by someone else in the same crowd, takes on the same meaning? How many swastikas in a crowd of people makes the entire crowd neo-*****? One? Probably not. Two? Three? Is it a percentage?

More to the point, if a group of neo-***** decide to carry, let's say, the US flag around on their marches. Does that make the US flag a symbol of neo-naziism? What if they do this every time they march? Heck. Does the cross now mean racism because the KKK uses them (when on fire of course) as a fear tactic? So all a hate group has to do is start carrying a symbol you care about around at their rallies, and now that symbol means something else?

So let's say they start sporting rainbow flags? Does this now mean we get to condemn every pride parade that uses the same flag as a racist march?

Do we let a ridiculously small minority of people, with a failing ideology, who have virtually zero actual power, tell us what our symbols mean? Do we give them that power now? Isn't it better to just ignore them? Heck. Deny them. But don't let them control how you think.

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That said, if I showed up with my totally non-racist-meaning Confederate flag and some dude showed up next to me with a fucking swastika and torch, throwing Nazi salutes and screaming about a home for white children, my reaction would range from getting into some sort of altercation to going the hell home. At no point would I be thinking "Well, I mean, I AM already here and that IS one nice statue so I guess this is okay. But I'm totally not a racist though!" Maybe your own line is a bit more flexible that you give everyone else so much benefit of the doubt.



That's not what I'm saying though. Does the fact that some neo-****/white supremacists/whatever decide to sport the Virginia Battle flag at their hate event mean that you can no longer fly it, even though it has a completely non-racist meaning to you? It's not about the people at that one rally. It's about what that means to people who are *not* at that rally.

You seem to be arguing that anyone who uses this symbol, anywhere, and for any reason, must now either stop doing so, or be condemned as racists. I happen to think that's stupid. There's an incredibly tiny number of people actually using that flag as a symbol of racism and hate, and an incredibly large number of idiots who have decided to oblige them, adopt their interpretation of that flag as "fact", and then proceed on a rampage to force everyone else to accept that interpretation as well.

Maybe you should *not* let neo-***** tell you what to think? Just a thought.
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#4109 Aug 30 2017 at 8:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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The most cynical part of me, upon seeing this article, was sure that Hurricane Harvey was sent by God, so that the GOP would be shamed into keeping the disaster fund cash in the disaster fund, because God doesn't want the wall!
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#4110 Aug 30 2017 at 8:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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+1

Edited, Aug 30th 2017 8:25pm by stupidmonkey
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#4111 Aug 30 2017 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
There's an incredibly tiny number of people actually using that flag as a symbol of racism and hate.
Since the number is so tiny, go ahead and tell us approximately what that number is.

Edited, Aug 30th 2017 11:20pm by Bijou
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Jophiel wrote:
Last week, I saw a guy with an eyepatch and a gold monocle and pointed him out to Flea as one of the most awesome things I've seen, ever. If I had an eyepatch and a gold monocle, I'd always dress up as Mr. Peanut but with a hook hand and a parrot.
#4112 Aug 30 2017 at 10:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Maybe you should *not* let neo-***** tell you what to think? Just a thought.

Great idea. I'll let the history of the resurgence of the Confederate Battle Flag as a symbol in the last sixty-odd years and its use since then tell me what to think. Thanks for the tip.

Ok, hey... still racist as fuck and allied with white supremacist ideals. Oh well, at least we tried.

Edited, Aug 31st 2017 9:07am by Jophiel
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#4113 Aug 30 2017 at 11:22 PM Rating: Good
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I'm an American and I'm Catholic.


If I meet gbaji do I beat the stuffing out of him or pray for him?

I'm conflicted. Smiley: frown
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Jophiel wrote:
Last week, I saw a guy with an eyepatch and a gold monocle and pointed him out to Flea as one of the most awesome things I've seen, ever. If I had an eyepatch and a gold monocle, I'd always dress up as Mr. Peanut but with a hook hand and a parrot.
#4114 Aug 31 2017 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
There are a ton of people living in the South who do not see that flag the way you do.
No one sees a swastika tattoo and thinks "Must be a Buddhist."
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#4115 Aug 31 2017 at 8:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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When I was a little kid I, like so many others, came across the swastika as an easy to draw, aesthetically pleasing figure. And, like many other kids, drew a shitload of them in my notebooks and stuff. Not because I was a Nazi but because I was too young and ignorant to know better. Eventually I grew older and smarter and more aware of the world around me and realized "Hey, drawing a bunch of swastikas is kind of fucked up and I shouldn't do that even if I'm not personally a Nazi". I think I had this much self-awareness around age ten or so. Maybe twelve. Certainly by the time I went into my 8th grade Social Studies class and my class was warned against it by my WWII veteran instructor who had been at the liberation of a camp, it already wasn't an issue for me.

The battle flag became popular in the 20th century as a result of an intentional campaign of racism. That's not even really up for debate. That some people lack the self-awareness to understand its meaning beyond "Hooray for this geographic region and we're total rebels (who lost)!" or have deceived themselves with some antebellum mythology isn't really much of an excuse. That they are informed of its meaning and impact and still insist on clinging to "But when I do it..." gives me considerably less sympathy.

Edited, Aug 31st 2017 1:23pm by Jophiel
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#4116 Aug 31 2017 at 12:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: laugh
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#4117 Aug 31 2017 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
There's an incredibly tiny number of people actually using that flag as a symbol of racism and hate.
Since the number is so tiny, go ahead and tell us approximately what that number is.


5. The number is approximately 5. How's that?
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#4118 Aug 31 2017 at 8:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
There's an incredibly tiny number of people actually using that flag as a symbol of racism and hate.
Since the number is so tiny, go ahead and tell us approximately what that number is.


I'll take this double post as an opportunity for an alternative answer:

The number is certainly lower than the number of illegal immigrants who commit violent crimes, including rape and murder, which, as I'm sure you'll agree, has broadly been proclaimed as not many.

So there you have it! Absolute proof that "not many" people use that flag as a symbol of racism. Just doesn't get more clear than that!

PS. I've been doing debugging of network/IO problems with a new software product, which consists of timing test cases. Over. And Over. And Over. My brain freaking hurts. Just saying...

Edited, Aug 31st 2017 7:28pm by gbaji
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#4119 Aug 31 2017 at 8:22 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
There are a ton of people living in the South who do not see that flag the way you do.
No one sees a swastika tattoo and thinks "Must be a Buddhist."


And yet, lots of people in the south see the Virginia Battle Flag and don't think "Must be a racist".

So was your point to highlight the differences between those two? Because that's kinda what you just did.
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#4120 Aug 31 2017 at 9:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not so sure about that. I grew up in the South, and seeing a battle flag never made me think, "That there's an open-minded gentleman and a friend to all people." Since racism is so pandemic there it can be difficult to separate the signal from the background noise, but a battle flag makes it pretty easy to do, on a case by case basis.

I'd break it down like this: Confederate flag tattoo: 100% racist. Any Confederate flag decal, paint job, sticker or other permanent decoration on a truck: 80% likely to be racist. Flag on a flagpole: 60%. On any article of clothing more elaborate than, say, a t-shirt: 40%. T-shirt: 20%. All values approximate, of course; but you can't just hand-wave it away and say "most people don't see the flag as any kind of white supremacy signifier," because whether they admit it or not, they do.

To twist a phrase popular amongst the alt-reich, it's a cheap and easy form of bigot-signaling.
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#4121 Aug 31 2017 at 9:32 PM Rating: Good
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LInk

Is Talking Points Memo trying to color Eric in a good light or a bad light?
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#4122 Aug 31 2017 at 11:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, it's TPM so I'd guess bad light.

I don't know where the "good light" comes from. He comes across as whiny, especially given his father's history, with the "Oh, wow, people in politics & media are meanie-heads!" bit. And the fact that much of Trump fund raising is a huge scam was pretty well documented during the election so no sympathy points for "But the children!". People should be skeptical of any Trump fund raising given how the Trump Foundation shook out.
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#4123 Sep 01 2017 at 5:32 AM Rating: Good
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I thought it was trying for a good light, but it came across super bad light.

But I don't think I have ever read TPM before, and I thought it was a conservative site. Smiley: lol
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#4124 Sep 01 2017 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
And yet, lots of people in the south see the Virginia Battle Flag and don't think "Must be a racist".
So what you're saying is a bunch of racists see a racist thing and don't call it racist because they don't want their racism to prevent them from doing racist things?

It's kind of weird how much you're insisting that racists are honest people.
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Is Talking Points Memo trying to color Eric in a good light or a bad light?
Is there any light that can make Eric look good? I mean physically. He looks like what happens when you leave the semen in the turkey baster on the counter over the weekend and it curdles.

Edited, Sep 1st 2017 9:46am by lolgaxe
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#4125 Sep 01 2017 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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The Democratic candidate for a County Legislator seat in Albany, New York is John Hebert, who used to draw Spider-Man, X-Men, and Johnny Quest comics in the 90s. Of course his political leaflet about his career neglects to mention he also drew a couple of issues of Punisher.

No real point, I'm just easily amused when my world crosses over into other areas. Slow news day.
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#4126 Sep 01 2017 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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Heh, I saw this on Twitter, it made me laugh!

Maple Cocaine on twitter wrote:

KKK: we want a white ethno-state!
POC: **** you!
Centrist pops out of a trash can: you didnt even give them a chance to explain their reasoning


Link
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