Forum Settings
       
1 2 Next »
Reply To Thread

Because the first decade of war wasn't enough.Follow

#27 Nov 20 2014 at 3:38 PM Rating: Default
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
It's worded as a withdrawal date, because that's how it had to be worded, but the actual withdrawal date was always intended to be extended as needed.

Please explain to me why it had to be worded that way as opposed to remaining there pending approval of the new government.


If only there was an additional paragraph immediately following the line you quoted which might contain the answer you seek.

gbaji wrote:
Every reasonably savvy person saw this as the face saving measure that it was.



And perhaps, earlier in the paragraph which contained the line you quoted, there was some context which might explain why this face saving was required:

gbaji wrote:
The alternative was being booted out "now". The SOFA was protested by anti-US factions in Iraq because it allowed US troops to remain in the country.


I'm not sure how to more clearly state that there were factions in Iraq which wanted the US out *now*, but the Iraqi government knew that would be a mistake, so they made an agreement to allow US troops to remain, but worded it as a scheduled withdrawal date (which, conveniently, was many years later than *now*) so as to appease those factions. Nobody except the most politically naive actually thought this was about moving forward with US troop withdrawal. It was always about setting a period of time during which US troops could remain in Iraq, with the understanding that this would be extended.

Well. Until Obama happened.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#28 Nov 20 2014 at 9:24 PM Rating: Default
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,265 posts
Gbaji wrote:
If only there was an additional paragraph immediately following the line you quoted which might contain the answer you seek.
....
I'm not sure how to more clearly state that there were factions in Iraq which wanted the US out *now*, but the Iraqi government knew that would be a mistake, so they made an agreement to allow US troops to remain, but worded it as a scheduled withdrawal date (which, conveniently, was many years later than *now*) so as to appease those factions. Nobody except the most politically naive actually thought this was about moving forward with US troop withdrawal. It was always about setting a period of time during which US troops could remain in Iraq, with the understanding that this would be extended.

Well. Until Obama happened.

Gbaji previously wrote:
Once the Iraq government was established, the US had no remaining legal authority to operate in the country without the Iraqi government's approval. The SOFA was that approval.

Wanting to save face has nothing to do with legal authority to operate. That was a choice, so therefore does not answer my question. That's the point I'm trying to convey. They chose their wording, not out of legal purposes, but out of personal purposes.

Gbaji wrote:

And perhaps, earlier in the paragraph which contained the line you quoted, there was some context which might explain why this face saving was required:

Likewise as above. There will always be protestors of US military intervention in one's home nation, especially when there is bombing and killing involved. The true alternative would be working to accept the SOFA as we are somehow back in Iraq now.
#29 Nov 20 2014 at 9:45 PM Rating: Default
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Almalieque wrote:
Wanting to save face has nothing to do with legal authority to operate.


But it has everything to do with why the SOFA was worded that way. Which was the question you actually asked.


Quote:
They chose their wording, not out of legal purposes, but out of personal purposes.


Correct. So they could save face. Do you understand the concept of saving face? It's when the leaders of a side involved in negotiations have supporters that demand something, but that something isn't reasonable, instead of forcing them to tell their own people to F off, you massage the language in the agreement so that it sounds more like what that sides supporters are demanding. Everyone at the table understands this. And usually even the folks being "fooled" understand this. But everyone gets to claim that they got what they demanded, while the necessary compromises are actually made.

I honestly didn't think I had to explain this.

Quote:
Likewise as above. There will always be protestors of US military intervention in one's home nation, especially when there is bombing and killing involved. The true alternative would be working to accept the SOFA as we are somehow back in Iraq now.


Yes. And telling them to suck it, doesn't generally work. More importantly insisting that their own leaders tell them to do this is most likely going to result in no agreements being made. So you agree to language that allows those leaders to go back home and say that they got what their supporters wanted. That's what the whole deal was about. Clearly, the Iraqi government was not ready for the US to withdraw their troops, right? But it's not like they can come to the US and say "please stay, because we're not capable of controlling our own country". No political leader will ever say that. The point is that the agreement was written the way it was out of the assumption that the US would later push for their troops to remain longer, and the Iraqi government at that time would give in (but presumably with a new promise of a new withdrawal date). That way the US can be made out to be the bad guys, but what needs to be done gets done.

The problem is that the whole deal hinged on the US pushing for this extension. But Obama didn't. Hence basically ******** over Iraq in the process.

Edited, Nov 20th 2014 7:46pm by gbaji
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#30 Nov 21 2014 at 2:46 AM Rating: Default
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,265 posts
Again, saving face is not legal binding. Furthermore, "saving face" doesn't prevent you from creating wiggle room, e.g., "will be reevaluated with the new government and pending the support of the people". So, you have yet provided a reason on why this couldn't have been worded better.
#31 Nov 21 2014 at 8:20 AM Rating: Decent
*******
50,767 posts
gbaji wrote:
I honestly didn't think I had to explain this.
Being this detached from reality must be so liberating. I almost envy you.

Anyway, one sentence with three laughable words.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#32 Nov 21 2014 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
gbaji wrote:
Obama [...] was literally the only person on the planet who didn't get that no one actually expected or wanted the US to fully pull out of Iraq, for more or less the exact reasons we're now seeing happen.


I wanted every troop out of the ME. We have zero ******* business there. We didn't have it 12 years ago, we don't today. Sadly, it's all you ******* morons that are screaming for "stability in the region" and "protecting our borders" nonsense that we were fed that keeps us shedding unnecessary blood.
#34 Nov 21 2014 at 5:38 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Almalieque wrote:
Again, saving face is not legal binding.


Not hitting yourself in the head with a shovel isn't legally binding either. It's still a good idea though.


Quote:
Furthermore, "saving face" doesn't prevent you from creating wiggle room, e.g., "will be reevaluated with the new government and pending the support of the people". So, you have yet provided a reason on why this couldn't have been worded better.


Absence of perfection is a crappy argument.

I'll also point out that there was a lot of "wiggle room" in the agreement that could have allowed for redefining US forces in Iraq so as to still allow them to remain in country. Obama choose not to do this. The point being that there were several things Obama could have done to keep some level of US troops in Iraq if he had chosen to do so. He chose not to. Thus, the absence of those troops, and any resulting instability which resulted, lies squarely on his shoulders.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#35 Nov 21 2014 at 7:20 PM Rating: Default
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,265 posts
Gbaji wrote:
Not hitting yourself in the head with a shovel isn't legally binding either. It's still a good idea though.

Exactly, so why create a deadline (hitting yourself in the head) when you don't have to?

Gbaji wrote:
Absence of perfection is a crappy argument.
You can't claim that was the best option, when it wasn't.

Gbaji wrote:
I'll also point out that there was a lot of "wiggle room" in the agreement that could have allowed for redefining US forces in Iraq so as to still allow them to remain in country. Obama choose not to do this. The point being that there were several things Obama could have done to keep some level of US troops in Iraq if he had chosen to do so. He chose not to. Thus, the absence of those troops, and any resulting instability which resulted, lies squarely on his shoulders.

1. If there was so much wiggle room, then it didn't need to be written that way.
2. Candidate Obama was against the war, so how is it his fault for not undoing President's Bush's actions? Funny when President Obama wants to undo stuff or make changes, he's labeled "Emperor in Chief", but for everything else, conservatives claim that he has full power to make changes without Congress.


#36 Nov 21 2014 at 9:26 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
7,564 posts
Suck it up buttercup we are in the big boy club now. We have homegrown terrorism! That means its time to do our part!
____________________________
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.

#37 Nov 24 2014 at 8:20 AM Rating: Good
*******
50,767 posts
rdmcandie wrote:
That means its time to do our part!
Good, then we can go on vacation for the next fifteen years and you take care of it.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
1 2 Next »
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 420 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (420)