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#852 Oct 28 2014 at 11:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
So, basically... whoever starts the debate wins. Huh.

I suppose if the only way you can think of to bring up anything is to say "Yeah, well, how about THIS?" then yeah.
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#853 Oct 28 2014 at 11:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kavekkk wrote:
Timelordwho on Poldaran:

'I think he's very slightly misogynistic... I think he might have some rejection issues with women... I mean that's just a feeling I have, I can't substantiate it. I think he's afraid of being rejected by women in a lot of situations... so he's more keen to find fault with them."

Classic Timelordwho...
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#854 Oct 28 2014 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
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You have to be careful that when you bring up issues it's not in a tone of "See it happens to us too", which minimizes other victims. That's really the key, be thoughtful and always consider how you present something and if it minimizes someone else.


Yeah, that was what I wanted to communicate. I didn't.

Quote:
By the same token, if you claim to be against rape, harassment, assault, etc and someone say "This guy was just assaulted" the correct response isn't "But it's not the same as when it happens to a woman because..."


And that's absolutely fair. The victim shouldn't be erased like that, ever. And I totally agree I erased the harassment issue above way more than was acceptable. I intended to address what I assumed to be Pold's motive there. What I actually did was downplay the way that guy was mistreated, and that's not okay.


What I took issue with was the way Pold delivered the info, and why. The actual incident is horrible, and I sincerely hope they catch who did it, because that's ****** up for many reasons (ranging from the obvious harassment issue to making light of the suicide prevention mechanism). I don't care how much of a douche you think the guy is, that's ****** up.

But I'm also not going to accept an argument that dismisses the death threats against women because "both sides harass" when the counter-example is this. Because this and that are on fundamentally different levels. Both are ********* NEITHER should happen. And if we want to discuss the ways it's ****** up to call in a false suicide attempt, I'm game. But in the context of the meta discussion about harassment surrounding gamergate, I'm not accepting that as an example of equal attacks from "both sides".

"Both sides" because I'm still not inclined to use that terminology. I mean, what are we holding as the "banner" for the other side of the issue? Feminism? Well, actually...
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#855 Oct 28 2014 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
But I'm also not going to accept an argument that dismisses the death threats against women because "both sides harass" when the counter-example is this. Because this and that are on fundamentally different levels.
You argued, heatedly, about how one side's arguments aren't acceptable because of their fringe's behavior and not enough denouncement of that behavior. Yet you want everyone else to accept your arguments, even though your fringe's behavior is just as detestable as the behavior you're arguing against, and there has been less denouncement and decrying of it from your camp. You can't possibly believe the whole "strong as your weakest link" is only applicable to one side.

That's not an argument for equality, that's an argument for special treatment. That's about as much an argument about feminism as the other side's argument is about journalism.

Edited, Oct 28th 2014 2:27pm by lolgaxe
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#856 Oct 28 2014 at 12:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory wrote:
I mean, what are we holding as the "banner" for the other side of the issue? Feminism? Well, actually...

That would seem to be the banner most people I've seen hold on that side, sure. Which, when your (general 'your') primary argument is to scream "Harassment! Death threats! Women haters!" at the other side until they shut up, would seem like a pretty stock choice to band around.
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#857 Oct 28 2014 at 12:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
You can't possibly believe the whole "strong as your weakest link" is only applicable to one side.

The "weakest link" thing was Omega's, I believe. I don't know if Idiggory* ever argued that.


*Some names look really dumb when properly capitalized
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#858 Oct 28 2014 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
The "weakest link" thing was Omega's, I believe. I don't know if Idiggory* ever argued that.
Omega said it directly, they've both been arguing the principle of it, though.
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#859 Oct 28 2014 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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Also, it'd be a lot easier to remember who said what if all you folks with the green names and a bunch of stars started using those free avatars to differentiate yourselves. Yeah, I just said all green people look alike. But it's not racist since I'm also Sage.

idiggory wrote:
What I took issue with was the way Pold delivered the info, and why.
That was projection on your part. I've been randomly linking things I find that I believe are of interest. You were the one who assumed I was trying to make an argument.

#860 Oct 28 2014 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Also, it'd be a lot easier to remember who said what if all you folks with the green names and a bunch of stars started using those free avatars to differentiate yourselves.
Either (a) I'm protesting the current not-so-behind-the-scene ongoings debacle or (b) I'd rather be remembered for what I said than a picture of a walrus.

(3) Can't be bothered.
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#861 Oct 28 2014 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know either, but I do know this: it's just a shot away.

Awesome song off of an awesome album. Powerful back-up singing, the way Merry Clayton's voice cracks on the third "rape, murder" and, amazingly, it cracks in tune.

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#862 Oct 28 2014 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
*Some names look really dumb when properly capitalized

I know. Smiley: frown

lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory wrote:
But I'm also not going to accept an argument that dismisses the death threats against women because "both sides harass" when the counter-example is this. Because this and that are on fundamentally different levels.
You argued, heatedly, about how one side's arguments aren't acceptable because of their fringe's behavior and not enough denouncement of that behavior. Yet you want everyone else to accept your arguments, even though your fringe's behavior is just as detestable as the behavior you're arguing against, and there has been less denouncement and decrying of it from your camp. You can't possibly believe the whole "strong as your weakest link" is only applicable to one side.

That's not an argument for equality, that's an argument for special treatment. That's about as much an argument about feminism as the other side's argument is about journalism.

Edited, Oct 28th 2014 2:27pm by lolgaxe


My entire argument was based specifically around the establishment of a side. That was the entire point of the argument - that if you're voicing support for a specific movement, and that movement is spawning sufficient instances of harassment that the two are heavily equated in public image, that you are then voicing support for the grievances as well. I think you CAN counter this if you are really proactive in denouncing the behaviors.

You can group me into a side if you want, but that doesn't change anything. To the best of my knowledge, I haven't voiced support for a counter-movement that is causing instances of harassment against gamergate. I haven't seen it here, and I haven't seen it on tumblr or twitter. I also don't think I know anyone who would hear about an incident where a feminist harassed someone like this and not be utterly OUTRAGED that they had the gall to call themselves feminists.

But that could also be selection bias on my part, since I obviously have a lot of control over who is in my network. And I tend to avoid radical feminists. (That said, though no one outside the movement would know this, radical feminists and other feminists tend to mutually exclude each other, because the foundational premises of the two theories differ in incompatible ways. Radical feminists are largely the group you'd probably call the men hating militants. And while I strongly disagree with them, I do think that's a little harsh).

I only know of two cases of gamergater harassment - the two linked by Pold. I wouldn't be surprised if Quinn doxxed someone, but I haven't seen any cite for it beyond a posted testimony. If anyone has the tweets, I'll happily participate in the "that was really ****** up, Quinn" discussion. What I WON'T do is agree that she deserves death threats because of it.

I'll also very happily share that info with my own networks, because I'm really not interested in being associated with people who would do that. I'd rather just lose the followers on tumblr than keep quiet.

The other instance was this suicide warning one. It's totally possible it was gamergate related. I have no clue how likely that is or not, because I know nothing about this person and there wasn't any proof it was about gamergate in his post. But it was a REALLY ********* thing to do regardless of if it was gamergate-related. But until there is any testimony from someone claiming solidarity with feminism about it, or I see people claiming solidarity with feminism AND supporting the act, I don't see how I'm responsible for its public support.

What I WILL say is that, regardless of whether that person calls them-self feminist or not, is that it's a royally ********* behavior, that it makes light of the suicide-prevention protocols, that it specifically misuses police power structures in a way that is fundamentally incompatible with a dedication to challenging patriarchy (it being an act of dominance over someone else, rather than an invitation for discussion or peaceful protest), that it becomes even more ********* considering they might absolutely no clue what kind of emotional background this guy has, and whether or not suicide is a trigger for him, and that I have absolutely no interest in associating myself with ANYONE who would do this.

edit: Are the quotes correct now?

Edited, Oct 28th 2014 3:31pm by idiggory
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#863 Oct 28 2014 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Mazra wrote:
So, basically... whoever starts the debate wins. Huh.

I suppose if the only way you can think of to bring up anything is to say "Yeah, well, how about THIS?" then yeah.


Is that what Pold was trying to do with the link, though?
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#864 Oct 28 2014 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have no clue how likely that is or not, because I know nothing about this person and there wasn't any proof it was about gamergate in his post. But it was a REALLY ********* thing to do regardless of if it was gamergate-related. But until there is any testimony from someone claiming solidarity with feminism about it, or I see people claiming solidarity with feminism AND supporting the act, I don't see how I'm responsible for its public support.

No one came out and said "I'm doxxing Felicia Day in the name of GAMERGATE!!" nor was Gamergate ever mentioned in the threat sent to the university in Utah but people were very quick to lump them together and accuse people even casually supportive of Gamergate of thus supporting those acts by association.

Edited, Oct 28th 2014 2:49pm by Jophiel
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#865 Oct 28 2014 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
If anyone has the tweets, I'll happily participate in the "that was really ****** up, Quinn" discussion.
There's this, where she claims she accidentally caused a DDoS on a group she didn't agree with. For argument's sake, even if it were an accident (I don't buy it, too convenient for my taste), the congratulatory replies certainly don't help any cause.
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#866 Oct 28 2014 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's a fair bet that the threats and harassment Gamersgate.com got were by people opposed to the "movement", even if those people were illiterate Smiley: laugh

They were intended Gamergater harassment, just done by people who aren't very smart.

Edited, Oct 28th 2014 3:02pm by Jophiel
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#867 Oct 28 2014 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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They didn't honor my 10% sales coupon! Smiley: mad

Before I bolt for the day, anyone got any idea when the Nintendo servers are going to be back up? I'm getting angry texts from the wife fellow about not getting her new pokemans yet.
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#868 Oct 28 2014 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Yet you want everyone else to accept your arguments, even though your fringe's behavior is just as detestable as the behavior you're arguing against,
That's because idiggory is the fringe of any argument he takes on.
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#869 Oct 28 2014 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Kavekkk wrote:
Timelordwho on Poldaran:

'I think he's very slightly misogynistic... I think he might have some rejection issues with women... I mean that's just a feeling I have, I can't substantiate it. I think he's afraid of being rejected by women in a lot of situations... so he's more keen to find fault with them."

Classic Timelordwho...


It was actually Allegory, I was just kinda hoping Poldaran might get mad at Timelord.

Honestly, these schemes of mine pan out about 10% of the time, tops.
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#870 Oct 28 2014 at 4:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
They didn't honor my 10% sales coupon! Smiley: mad

Before I bolt for the day, anyone got any idea when the Nintendo servers are going to be back up? I'm getting angry texts from the wife fellow about not getting her new pokemans yet.
When Pikachu stops getting death threats.
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#871 Oct 28 2014 at 5:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
When Pikachu stops getting death threats.

He hasn't been back in his Pokeball in six days!
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#872 Oct 28 2014 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
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No one came out and said "I'm doxxing Felicia Day in the name of GAMERGATE!!" nor was Gamergate ever mentioned in the threat sent to the university in Utah but people were very quick to lump them together and accuse people even casually supportive of Gamergate of thus supporting those acts by association.


Utah, I accept. I have little doubt the idiot is a gamergater, but it didn't cite gamergate's hashtag from what I can tell.

But false for Day. At least, according to Kotaku, the username of the person who doxxed Day on her blog post was "gaimerg8." I'm inclined to say that counts?

lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory wrote:
If anyone has the tweets, I'll happily participate in the "that was really ****** up, Quinn" discussion.
There's this, where she claims she accidentally caused a DDoS on a group she didn't agree with. For argument's sake, even if it were an accident (I don't buy it, too convenient for my taste), the congratulatory replies certainly don't help any cause.


Any self-congratulation is definitely in extremely poor taste, regardless of if it was an accident or not. Doesn't even matter (or, more specifically, doesn't matter in the context that we'll never know which is true) - it's a ****** circumstance and that's about where the comments should end. Period.

I don't really feel any call to defend Quinn's character at all. I'm not entirely sure why you keep bringing it up. Maybe you and I just see different posts on the internet, but I haven't seen anyone try to paint Quinn as an innocent angel, anywhere.

It wouldn't even be a smart tactic, if she was 100% innocent of all accusations and was an altogether pleasant person to be around. Basing your argument on the integrity of a single person just isn't wise.

Literally all I care about is that she was being doxxed, harassed, etc. That's it. I'm sure there are many people who dislike her for legitimate reasons, and I'm sure there are plenty of reasons people dislike her for misogynistic reasons, and I'm 100% sure I have no interest in trying to construct a defense of her character in the context of the larger discussion going on. It's a waste of time.

For one, there's way too much mud being thrown to get any realistic look at her character. For another, who cares? Quinn could be the spawn of satan, and that still doesn't excuse harassment. And she could be an angel, and the harassment would be equally as unacceptable.

Unless you disagree and think that people you don't like should be harassed, in which case you and are at an am impasse.

Uglysasquatch wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Yet you want everyone else to accept your arguments, even though your fringe's behavior is just as detestable as the behavior you're arguing against,
That's because idiggory is the fringe of any argument he takes on.


Oh how deep the rabbit hole goes. I'm conservative at best in activist communities. Smiley: lol (No, but really).

That said, I'm not sure how I'm the fringe voice in this particular debate. Maybe fringe in gamer communities, but gamergaters = womanhaters is the general public consensus. Media influence, yadda, yadda, but still.

I'm definitely USUALLY the fringe argument, yeah. But I seriously doubt it for this one.
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#873 Oct 28 2014 at 7:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory wrote:
gamergaters = womanhaters is the general public consensus.

I don't think there is a public consensus. I could ask ten people at work tomorrow about Gamergate and get nine blank stares and one demand that I get back to work.
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#874 Oct 28 2014 at 7:25 PM Rating: Default
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Quinn could be the spawn of satan, and that still doesn't excuse harassment.



And here we differ. Spawn of satan does not qualify for being human and therefore excuses harassment. Clearly you are not religious.
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#875 Oct 28 2014 at 8:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
idiggory wrote:
gamergaters = womanhaters is the general public consensus.

I don't think there is a public consensus. I could ask ten people at work tomorrow about Gamergate and get nine blank stares and one demand that I get back to work.

Smiley: nod
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#876 Oct 29 2014 at 12:19 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
The other instance was this suicide warning one. It's totally possible it was gamergate related. I have no clue how likely that is or not, because I know nothing about this person and there wasn't any proof it was about gamergate in his post. But it was a REALLY ********* thing to do regardless of if it was gamergate-related. But until there is any testimony from someone claiming solidarity with feminism about it, or I see people claiming solidarity with feminism AND supporting the act, I don't see how I'm responsible for its public support.
It's extremely likely that he was targeted because he's a visible supporter of Gamergate, but I have some strong doubts that it was someone from the side of those who claim solidarity with feminism. Don't get me wrong, nothing would make me more giddy than tomorrow's headlines reading "Ben Kuchera* charged with filing false police report and abuse of the 911 system" since it would almost certainly force at least some journalists to sit at the table with someone like Totalbiscuit. But I think it was third party trolls. Just as I also think they're responsible for a majority of doxxing and harassment issues faced by those against Gamergate(not all, mind you, since I'm certain there are bad elements on both sides who feel justified in whatever behavior they engage in due to an "ends justifies the means" kind of mentality). Either way, their behavior is reprehensible and I'd really like to see them caught.

If the situation develops or I see anything about anyone else getting hit(regardless of whether they're pro or anti GG), I'll probably find it interesting enough to link here again. Because that's what I've mostly been doing. But for now, I don't really see any need for anyone to defend themselves regarding this one. And I doubt I will, unless it turns out to be someone here who did it. Probably triple k, if I had to place a bet. Smiley: tongue

*You can substitute the name of any of the main journalists/editors GG has called out in there, that's just the first name that popped off the top of my head.

Edit: Speaking of interesting and tangentially related things to report, Twitter's report options now includes "in disagreement with my opinions". Smiley: laugh

Edited, Oct 29th 2014 12:30am by Poldaran
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